| 00:21.03 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@70.249.150.251) |
| 00:21.56 | prpplague | yea yea |
| 00:23.11 | prpplague | RobotGuy: got that image uploaded |
| 00:23.23 | RobotGuy | I can't put it on imagebin.ca. |
| 00:23.41 | prpplague | why ? |
| 00:24.19 | RobotGuy | Wrong extension types. Must be just for pictures. |
| 00:24.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: silly me, i ment filebin.ca |
| 00:24.50 | RobotGuy | OK, let me get it there. |
| 00:26.04 | ds2 | generic industry question - are USB WiFi adapters that much more expensive then a proper WiFi chipset module? in otherwords, isn't it just as useful to do a stripped USB WiFi dongle as it is with bluetooth? |
| 00:27.13 | prpplague | ds2: no,` they are pretty cheap |
| 00:27.37 | ds2 | prpplague: then why not just use a USB one instead of fighting the SDIO/SPI battles? |
| 00:27.48 | prpplague | ds2: power |
| 00:28.10 | ds2 | isn't a USB one just as capable of low power as SPI/SDIO? |
| 00:28.36 | prpplague | not if it is using base 5v |
| 00:28.36 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://filebin.ca/cnzhxe/rootfs.arm.ext2.gz or http://filebin.ca/cnzhxe |
| 00:29.09 | ds2 | there are native 5V devices? thought all of them have a LDO to drop things to 3.3V and those are pretty easy to bypass |
| 00:30.21 | prpplague | ds2: when you bypass the ldo, you have two major issue, one you instantly loose the fcc cert, and two, it's a hand done modification, which costs $$$ |
| 00:30.32 | Mirell | *yawn* |
| 00:30.36 | ds2 | ah I see |
| 00:30.45 | prpplague | Mirell: waking up after a nap at work? |
| 00:31.31 | ds2 | guessing the cert is the bigger thing... off shore rework isn't THAT expensive! |
| 00:31.33 | Mirell | prpplague: Sleepy. I actually had to work today. |
| 00:31.49 | Mirell | Learned how to do some SQL, and start working on relearning Java. |
| 00:32.02 | prpplague | ds2: the other issue that wil go away is the fact that most SoC's that are available now are only full-speed usb 1.1 |
| 00:32.10 | RobotGuy | JAVA.. Umm, not for me, at least not now. |
| 00:32.19 | ds2 | not the current OMAPs? ;) |
| 00:32.21 | prpplague | ds2: expensive enough to add to the cost |
| 00:32.24 | ds2 | s/?// |
| 00:32.46 | Mirell | RobotGuy: It's my first job. |
| 00:32.50 | prpplague | ds2: and the omaps are out the range on qty for most vendors |
| 00:32.59 | Mirell | RobotGuy: They're a Java shop. I got to stay here for a year or two for resume fodder. |
| 00:33.03 | RobotGuy | Mirell: Ahhhhhh, so you can not avoid it. |
| 00:33.41 | Mirell | RobotGuy: Indeed. |
| 00:33.44 | ds2 | prpplague: not through the repurposed device market (i.e. reworked N800's stripped down) but I see your point |
| 00:34.00 | RobotGuy | Two years really isn't long enough though. You have to build a reputation for staying in one place. |
| 00:34.10 | prpplague | ds2: its not an option for OEM's |
| 00:34.13 | CosmicPenguin | why? |
| 00:34.14 | Mirell | RobotGuy: I've heard otherwise. |
| 00:35.09 | CosmicPenguin | I would discount a interviewee if they spent too much time at their first job |
| 00:35.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: why to which item? |
| 00:35.30 | CosmicPenguin | Too much money and too many interesting things out there for somebody young |
| 00:35.30 | RobotGuy | Hmmmmm, interesting, OK. |
| 00:35.39 | ds2 | prplague: I think that depends on quantity |
| 00:35.59 | prpplague | ds2: yea well 50k units is way out of the range for most vendor |
| 00:36.19 | ds2 | CosmicPenguin: what about people with CCNA/MSCE certs? =) |
| 00:36.24 | RobotGuy | I looked at laptops today. Of course, I can't afford any of them, but I did see a nice $499.00 unit. |
| 00:36.29 | ds2 | prpplague: *nod* |
| 00:36.34 | ds2 | RobotGuy: cloudbook! |
| 00:36.56 | Mirell | ds2: ...ugh |
| 00:37.51 | ds2 | ?? |
| 00:38.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: first job only? |
| 00:38.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or does that apply to 2nd and 3rd? |
| 00:38.46 | CosmicPenguin | For me it did, I guess |
| 00:39.04 | CosmicPenguin | but at some point, you seem to accumulate people and animals living at your house that crave stability |
| 00:39.25 | RobotGuy | I always got looked down on and passed over for jobs because of not enough longevity at jobs. |
| 00:39.58 | CosmicPenguin | A real engineer would see past that |
| 00:40.14 | CosmicPenguin | a manager type wouldn't - but what is the manager type doing interviewing in the first place? :) |
| 00:40.24 | RobotGuy | I was never up for engineering positions due to lack of education. |
| 00:41.06 | prpplague | RobotGuy: lack of organized education should never keep you from a good job |
| 00:41.35 | ds2 | organized edu isn't worth anything if the person donno how to apply it |
| 00:41.37 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It did in my case - didn't matter that I could run rings around degreed folks. |
| 00:41.39 | CosmicPenguin | Career advice is usually only valid for specific industries |
| 00:42.04 | RobotGuy | I do not do well in standard educational environments. |
| 00:42.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: btw, i'm not upset about the bluez stuff, like i said early, it's more surprising that upseting |
| 00:42.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we do just like we always have with open source, take what works, add what we need, and give it back |
| 00:45.04 | Mirell | Hmm... |
| 00:45.17 | Mirell | I found it amusing, my Bachelor's meant nothing other than I was able to get a Bachelor's. |
| 00:45.45 | Mirell | In terms of interviewing. |
| 00:46.07 | RobotGuy | Sheesh, for the $400.00 price of a Cloudbook, I could get a better laptop for $499.00. |
| 00:46.35 | Mirell | Everytime I hear Cloudbook, I think the laptop has a huge sword. |
| 00:46.56 | SpeedEvil | A laptop that'd float on the air would be handy |
| 00:48.13 | RobotGuy | I got frustrated at being passed over for jobs I KNEW I could do better than other candidates, and just finally gave up and had sort of a break down. Been disabled since. |
| 00:48.43 | RobotGuy | Now I am doing stuff I enjoy more anyway. |
| 00:50.15 | RobotGuy | In fact, I am doing exactly the kinds of stuff I have always wanted to do. :D |
| 00:52.56 | *** join/#edev roxfan2 (n=dunno@91.13-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 00:57.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ok so i think i found your problemn |
| 00:58.53 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Oh, good! What did I do wrong? |
| 01:00.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe you generally can't have a ramdisk rootfs that is bigger that the amount of ram on the device, hehe |
| 01:00.42 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Well, I been trying to find out how the rootfs is used. |
| 01:00.57 | prpplague | RobotGuy: what do you mean? |
| 01:01.06 | RobotGuy | So maybe I can't get everything I want onto hammer? |
| 01:01.09 | Mirell | Man... |
| 01:01.28 | Mirell | I've gotten so many letters going, MERCHANT PROCESSING and other business services every since I filed business paperwork |
| 01:01.29 | RobotGuy | Some said it was stored compressed, others say it gets unpacked to RAM. |
| 01:02.27 | RobotGuy | I have been thinking the latter. |
| 01:03.11 | CosmicPenguin | it depends on what filesystem you use |
| 01:04.08 | prpplague | RobotGuy: an initrd is indeed stored compresed, however as the system starts it is uncompressed to ram |
| 01:04.13 | RobotGuy | How about walterfs? Hee hee |
| 01:04.41 | RobotGuy | why is it called rootfs if it goes into the initramfs? |
| 01:05.06 | SpeedEvil | Because it's the root filesystem |
| 01:05.22 | SpeedEvil | It gets mounted at / and /bin/init (or whatever) get run from it |
| 01:05.52 | RobotGuy | So just adding Python got me a 17 MB uncompressed rootfs |
| 01:06.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy: initramfs is different |
| 01:06.15 | RobotGuy | 16 MB |
| 01:06.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy: rootfs is generic in the term that it is the root filesystem |
| 01:06.35 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 01:06.38 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the root file system can be anything |
| 01:06.49 | prpplague | RobotGuy: in this case we are using initrd, or initial ramdisk |
| 01:06.58 | prpplague | RobotGuy: which is different from initramfs |
| 01:07.17 | RobotGuy | OK. Hmmmm. So how do I get my languages and stuff onto Hammer to stay? |
| 01:07.34 | prpplague | RobotGuy: there are many options |
| 01:07.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i wasn't aware of the size of python, it's giant |
| 01:08.42 | RobotGuy | I'd like to have Python, Squeak (after porting), web server, perhaps PHP for web server. |
| 01:08.53 | RobotGuy | I don't think it will all fit. |
| 01:09.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: uh no, not with the stock flash |
| 01:09.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'd suggest using a usb thumb drive |
| 01:09.26 | RobotGuy | We don't know how big Squeak will be yet. |
| 01:09.41 | RobotGuy | What about SD Card? |
| 01:09.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: squeak build is just a 1.5mb |
| 01:10.10 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you aren't going to get the performance you;d like using a sd card via spi |
| 01:10.20 | RobotGuy | I was affraid of that. |
| 01:10.37 | RobotGuy | I will have to see how large a USB Thumb drive I can get. |
| 01:10.50 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you can get 1gb for like $15 |
| 01:11.22 | RobotGuy | Very affordable. Do they go as large as 2 Gig or 4 Gig or larger? |
| 01:11.27 | prpplague | yea |
| 01:11.36 | RobotGuy | OK, Thumb Drive then! |
| 01:12.06 | RobotGuy | Until then I have to get what I can into the standard hammer flash and ram. |
| 01:12.19 | RobotGuy | Looks like I will have to dump Python. |
| 01:12.24 | prpplague | http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=drv11232 |
| 01:14.51 | RobotGuy | I'll probably invest in a nice 2 GB or 4 GB thumb drive. Maybe two. |
| 01:15.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'd start with some cheapies |
| 01:15.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you can get some 128mb ones from wal-mart for like $9 |
| 01:15.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thats plenty for what you want to do |
| 01:16.03 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you could also get a cheap usb->sd card reader |
| 01:16.07 | RobotGuy | I can probably get a cheapy at CompUSA that will work. |
| 01:16.09 | prpplague | RobotGuy: that would work as well |
| 01:16.19 | RobotGuy | I have an SD multi-format card reader. |
| 01:16.33 | prpplague | that'd work , its probably not that small though |
| 01:16.42 | RobotGuy | It is actually. |
| 01:16.49 | RobotGuy | The cable is just super long. |
| 01:16.53 | prpplague | http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=DRV10867 |
| 01:16.57 | prpplague | that'd work better |
| 01:17.10 | SpeedEvil | I like http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Data-Traveller-Mini-Fun-Kingston-1-GB_W0QQitemZ350013181495QQihZ022QQcategoryZ51076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 01:17.12 | SpeedEvil | or similar |
| 01:17.20 | RobotGuy | That's nice and compact. |
| 01:17.32 | RobotGuy | I don't do ebay. |
| 01:17.37 | SpeedEvil | the plastic bit can be pulled off, and the entire electronics is inside the metal shell of the USB connector |
| 01:18.00 | SpeedEvil | then you can pull the metal shell off and get a 2.5mm*10mm*30mm or so block of plastic, with the USB contacts on |
| 01:18.17 | SpeedEvil | which works just fine. I've soldered to one, though that's not recommended |
| 01:19.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i've used that one from softwareandstuff |
| 01:20.52 | Mirell | So they're going to get me a Blackberry, unfortunately. |
| 01:20.58 | Mirell | And not just be sane and pay my current cell phone bill. |
| 01:21.16 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:23.44 | RobotGuy | I'm going to go with bash for basic scripting, and boa for web, no PHP yet. |
| 01:23.54 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool |
| 01:24.19 | RobotGuy | I need to be able to do I2C and SPI, plus USB stuff. |
| 01:24.37 | RobotGuy | I've already configured my kernel. |
| 01:24.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: no need for bash, the shell in busybox is pretty darn function |
| 01:25.01 | prpplague | RobotGuy: rule of thumb, don;t turn it on until you need it |
| 01:25.02 | RobotGuy | I may have missed the usb network thing you told me about, prpplague |
| 01:25.07 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 01:28.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: its called usb net , its under the gadget drivers section |
| 01:28.28 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I may have it turned on then. |
| 01:28.49 | prpplague | RobotGuy: probably |
| 01:31.22 | RobotGuy | I'm in USB Gadget support but do not see usb-net |
| 01:31.31 | prpplague | one sec |
| 01:32.01 | RobotGuy | Ethernet Gadget. Found it. |
| 01:32.05 | RobotGuy | (I think) |
| 01:33.09 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea |
| 01:33.11 | prpplague | thats it |
| 01:35.11 | RobotGuy | Making new kernel image now. |
| 01:44.46 | *** join/#edev Crofton (n=balister@66-207-66-26.black.dmt.ntelos.net) |
| 01:48.16 | RobotGuy | prpplague: On the kernel patch, could you make it so make modules_install puts the modules in the project root/lib/modules/<kernel-version> dir? |
| 01:48.37 | RobotGuy | Umm, wait, kernel is outside buildroot. :( Dang. |
| 01:48.49 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea the kernel is going into buildroot |
| 01:49.00 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, then you could do it. |
| 01:49.22 | prpplague | yep |
| 01:49.56 | RobotGuy | Also don't install the two symlinks - they make no sense for embedded. |
| 01:50.27 | RobotGuy | Did you see what I am doing on the Wiki? |
| 01:50.36 | RobotGuy | It is not finished yet. |
| 01:50.38 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, i had a brief look |
| 01:50.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: it was a rough day at the office |
| 01:50.55 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Bummer |
| 01:52.34 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 01:52.52 | RobotGuy | I could spice things up by breaking something.. <ducks> :) |
| 01:54.33 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:54.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i got plenty of broken stuff |
| 01:55.29 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Oh, OK. Well, I seem to keep finding things, but I am also getting able to do more. |
| 01:56.32 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Do you think we will have Squeak sometime soon? |
| 01:56.47 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i compiled it yesterday |
| 01:56.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy: jsut don't know what to do with it |
| 01:57.11 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Add to buildroot? :D:D |
| 01:57.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy: circuit cellar is gonna do a new product brief on the hammer in the feb issue |
| 01:57.28 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool! |
| 01:57.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea one step at a time |
| 01:57.56 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I can always go back to plan B - Python, as huge as it seems to be. |
| 01:58.05 | RobotGuy | (and not much else) |
| 01:58.37 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'm surprised more people don't use logo |
| 01:58.41 | RobotGuy | I remember why I wanted to be able to change root password perm now. it's for when W.A.L.T.E.R. is on the internet. I sure don't want people getting root access. |
| 01:58.53 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Because it isn't in buildroot? ;) |
| 02:00.34 | RobotGuy | After the meeting the other night, I am pretty much convinced that Squeak will be the better robot language. |
| 02:01.40 | RobotGuy | Everytime Robert Sheer sees my Hammer, he comments on wanting to use it on Tarzan. |
| 02:02.48 | RobotGuy | He actually paid for my transportation to and from the meeting. |
| 02:03.56 | RobotGuy | Keynote speaker: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~black/ |
| 02:07.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy: wow |
| 02:07.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy: surprised he hasn't ordered one yet |
| 02:08.18 | RobotGuy | prpplague: He is waiting for Squeak. |
| 02:08.35 | RobotGuy | You mean Robert? |
| 02:08.38 | prpplague | yea |
| 02:08.50 | RobotGuy | Yep, waiting for a Squeak port. |
| 02:09.27 | prpplague | hehe, not really a port so to speak |
| 02:09.37 | RobotGuy | So to squeak. |
| 02:10.31 | RobotGuy | I am betting that as soon as Robert sees my Hammer running full Squeak, that he will be all over it. |
| 02:10.35 | prpplague | RobotGuy: its not really a port, since it already runs under linux |
| 02:10.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: more of just a cross compile |
| 02:10.54 | RobotGuy | prpplague: True, but it is cross compiled for ARM9/Hammer. |
| 02:11.38 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You can even include the two image and changes files right in the "port" |
| 02:11.52 | RobotGuy | One each, image and changes file. |
| 02:13.21 | RobotGuy | It might be better to leave the image and changes files out though, because different people may want to start with different setups. |
| 02:14.09 | prpplague | yep |
| 02:20.50 | prpplague | hehe changing channels on my wifi ap sure seemed to solve the problem |
| 02:21.27 | RobotGuy | It looks like pkg-config or maybe it is glib is not building. |
| 02:22.21 | RobotGuy | glib is where it got the error. It's looking for iconv in the C library. |
| 02:23.04 | RobotGuy | I'm glad changing channels worked. |
| 02:23.22 | prpplague | RobotGuy:your building glibc instead of uclibc? |
| 02:24.28 | *** join/#edev Crofton|work (n=balister@66-207-66-26.black.dmt.ntelos.net) |
| 02:24.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Something requires it apparently. |
| 02:24.53 | prpplague | RobotGuy: bummer |
| 02:25.11 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Trying to figure out what is requiring it now. |
| 02:28.48 | RobotGuy | I can't figure out what needed glib, sorry. |
| 02:30.35 | RobotGuy | I dropped back and am building a rootfs with boa and python. It just seemed right. :D |
| 02:36.11 | wmat | RobotGuy: did I notice a few days ago that you were interested in a Stellaris dev kit? |
| 02:37.01 | prpplague | CP|home_: ping |
| 02:37.03 | RobotGuy | wmat: Yes. |
| 02:37.18 | RobotGuy | the 6985 I believe is the one. |
| 02:38.23 | wmat | they ship our (CodeSourcery) toolchain in their kits |
| 02:38.32 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:38.54 | prpplague | wmat: *cough* when is codesourcery gonna support the hammer? |
| 02:38.57 | prpplague | hmmm? |
| 02:38.59 | RobotGuy | I'm not interested in CodeSourcery. |
| 02:39.05 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:39.11 | wmat | prpplague: heh, soon, soon |
| 02:39.37 | RobotGuy | I'm still considering Crossworks for ARM, but have not done anything yet. |
| 02:39.39 | wmat | prpplague: although, we already do in that we support all Arm cores |
| 02:39.51 | prpplague | wmat: yea |
| 02:40.11 | wmat | RobotGuy: too bad |
| 02:40.27 | RobotGuy | Why? |
| 02:40.48 | wmat | because we make good toolchains |
| 02:41.01 | RobotGuy | Everybody says that. ;) |
| 02:42.41 | RobotGuy | What makes CodeSourcery better than others? |
| 02:44.23 | wmat | RobotGuy: to start, our stable toolchains are heavily tested to work |
| 02:44.44 | wmat | also, we contribute back 10000's of line of code to the GNU tools |
| 02:45.43 | wmat | we bend over backwards to help our customers |
| 02:45.50 | RobotGuy | wmat: What makes you think others don't test their toolchains just as much? |
| 02:46.02 | RobotGuy | So does Rowley Associates. |
| 02:46.29 | RobotGuy | CodeSourcery is what, around $399.00 for a personal version with no support? |
| 02:46.37 | wmat | yeah |
| 02:46.43 | RobotGuy | I've done my homework. |
| 02:46.44 | wmat | what's Rowley? |
| 02:46.54 | RobotGuy | $155.00 for a personal version and great support. |
| 02:47.36 | wmat | and they give back to the gnu project? |
| 02:47.38 | RobotGuy | I'm disabled on a fixed income. You will not get my money easily. |
| 02:48.04 | RobotGuy | No idea about that but that in itself does not make CodeSourcery better. |
| 02:48.17 | wmat | i'm not asking for it, i just pointed out that luminary micro distributes our toolchain |
| 02:48.33 | RobotGuy | That's nice. Crossworks also supports Cortex now. |
| 02:48.38 | wmat | RobotGuy: better ethically |
| 02:48.55 | Crofton|work | Harry Potter toolchains :) |
| 02:49.00 | RobotGuy | wmat: You are not getting me soley on ethics, sorry. |
| 02:49.44 | RobotGuy | What is CodeSourcery going to do for me that Rowley won't do? |
| 02:50.01 | Crofton|work | answer the phone when you call .... |
| 02:50.23 | RobotGuy | I don't need to call Rowley - there are right there available anytime. I just open a ticket. |
| 02:50.28 | ds2 | phones are overrated ;) |
| 02:50.33 | davidc__ | bah, if you're so worried about money, just build a toolchain from scratch |
| 02:50.36 | Crofton|work | of course I talked to a guy today who was annoyed with MV becuase they only seem to care about larege customers |
| 02:50.47 | RobotGuy | davidc__: No thanks. |
| 02:51.01 | davidc__ | thats what I've always done.. its a huge PITA the first time, but there are tools to make it easier on some platforms |
| 02:51.23 | RobotGuy | I'm not going down that path. I do not need the frustration. |
| 02:51.37 | wmat | RobotGuy: anyway, i'm not trying to sell our toolchains. Although, I think it's reasonable to argue that many, many of the GNU toolchain support for embedded architectures is a direct result of codesourcery work. |
| 02:52.10 | wmat | btw, our Lite toolchains are free |
| 02:52.17 | RobotGuy | wmat: That may well be true. It still does not tell me why I should pay more for CodeSourcery and not get support. |
| 02:52.29 | RobotGuy | wmat: What restrictions? |
| 02:52.57 | wmat | RobotGuy: none |
| 02:53.01 | ds2 | IIRC from the last show, none, just no GUI |
| 02:53.13 | wmat | right, command line only |
| 02:53.15 | RobotGuy | wmat: There ya go. |
| 02:53.21 | wmat | that's not a restriction |
| 02:53.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy: many toolchain services like codesourcery do have advantages, but for most hobbists its not that important, its mainly for businesses |
| 02:53.27 | wmat | some would argue that's a benefit |
| 02:53.47 | RobotGuy | I'm not saying I am not open to going with something other than Crossworks, but I better have a real good reason for spending more money. |
| 02:53.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Right. |
| 02:54.18 | ds2 | there is always crosstools |
| 02:54.53 | RobotGuy | I've already been through enough toolchain building attempts that I just don't want to go there anymore. |
| 02:55.10 | ds2 | cross tools for the most part works pretty well |
| 02:55.24 | RobotGuy | It's the "for the most part" that bothers me. |
| 02:55.34 | wmat | I'd rather spend my money for a tool I know buying will help support a company that contributes back alot of it's code to the open source projects it works on |
| 02:55.54 | RobotGuy | I would too IF the tool is within my budget. |
| 02:56.07 | wmat | fair enough |
| 02:56.24 | RobotGuy | Unless there is some technical reason why one toolchain and IDE is better than another, I'll look at it. |
| 02:56.50 | RobotGuy | It has to also be affordable for me though. |
| 02:56.51 | wmat | you should try the 30 day eval, you get full professional support for that period |
| 02:57.12 | RobotGuy | wmat: I know, but then ya got to pay MORE to get that support after the eval. |
| 02:57.55 | SpeedEvil | Random question - anyone done any programming on CSR bluetooth devices? |
| 02:58.02 | RobotGuy | I got some 30 day evals but never got around to trying them out. |
| 02:58.02 | SpeedEvil | on the devices - not with them |
| 02:58.15 | wmat | RobotGuy: yes, the support option is admittedly an "enterprise" class item |
| 02:58.41 | RobotGuy | wmat: That's exactly where CodeSourcery loses me. |
| 02:59.00 | wmat | RobotGuy: unfortunately, support is expensive to provide |
| 02:59.02 | RobotGuy | But then the probably don't really care about the "little guy" developer. |
| 02:59.15 | RobotGuy | Rowley seems to handle it well. |
| 02:59.56 | RobotGuy | And Rowley is in the UK. |
| 03:01.34 | wmat | is Rowley an engineering shop? |
| 03:01.40 | RobotGuy | Rowley even sent me a CrossConnect Lite just so I could use Crossworks and was having all kinds of problems with the JTAG unit I had. |
| 03:01.59 | RobotGuy | wmat: Do I need to care if they are or not? |
| 03:02.20 | prpplague | http://www.rowley.co.uk/ |
| 03:02.47 | wmat | RobotGuy: yes, because if they're not, they're a pure sales play, which essentially reaps the rewards of GNU Toolchain open source code |
| 03:03.01 | wmat | RobotGuy: and if they are, where's all their contributions back up stream? |
| 03:03.22 | wmat | RobotGuy: granted, I'm not familiar with them, so I'll check them out. Thanks for the link. |
| 03:03.33 | prpplague | i don't think rowley does much upstream patches |
| 03:03.42 | RobotGuy | wmat: Do I really need to care about all that? Of course it would really be nice if they DO contribute back, but support is more important to me right now. |
| 03:04.24 | davidc__ | google: codesourcery.com site:gcc.gnu.org inurl:ml 46,000 results |
| 03:04.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy: well as open source advocates, its always on most peoples minds |
| 03:04.34 | davidc__ | google: codesourcery.com site:gcc.gnu.org inurl:ml |
| 03:04.37 | davidc__ | 1 result |
| 03:04.45 | davidc__ | er, rowley.co.uk |
| 03:04.47 | davidc__ | miscopied |
| 03:04.58 | davidc__ | so I guess you know who's more involved in the community :P |
| 03:05.08 | RobotGuy | Consider this though: Spending $155.00 with support versus $399.00 with zero support on my fixed disability income. Seriously, what would you do? |
| 03:05.32 | wmat | RobotGuy: you're right, I'd do the same |
| 03:05.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, again its not really a hobbists product per se |
| 03:05.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I understand. |
| 03:06.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Yes, I would rather go with a company who fully supports the Open Source community. Unfortunately that is more expensive than I can afford. |
| 03:07.01 | *** join/#edev ccherrett (n=chris@S0106000c413c715f.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 03:07.04 | prpplague | RobotGuy: but think of it this way, codesourcery contributes its work back to the toolchains you can use for free |
| 03:07.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy: rowely just takes the money and runs |
| 03:07.30 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I understand that. It's the cost and loss of support that bothers me. |
| 03:07.57 | davidc__ | just out of curiosity, why do you need toolchain support at a hobbyist level? |
| 03:08.04 | RobotGuy | wmat: What is CodeSourcery's full support license cost? |
| 03:08.15 | davidc__ | I've come across just 1 bug in arm targeted GCC |
| 03:08.16 | prpplague | davidc__: thats kinda my question as well |
| 03:08.29 | wmat | RobotGuy: $2800/seat |
| 03:09.23 | RobotGuy | Answer: Because I have gotten tired of trying to put together all the bits and pieces for a good solid toolchain for myself. I also have medical issues that require me to keep my frustration, anxiety, and stress levels as low as possible. |
| 03:10.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, well, doing a toolchain from scratch can be a headache, but there are so many builds now, its not even an issue |
| 03:10.08 | davidc__ | hah, then embedded development is probably not for you |
| 03:10.11 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thanks to companies like codesoucery |
| 03:10.16 | RobotGuy | wmat: That's way out of what I could ever hope to afford on anything less than a payment program like I got from Alibre (Alibre Design Expert, $1995.00 3D CAD package). |
| 03:10.33 | davidc__ | there have been so many times when I've wanted to pitch a dev board across a room, I'v;e lost count |
| 03:10.41 | prpplague | davidc__: hehe |
| 03:10.45 | davidc__ | [and in some cases, I have pitched it across the room, like when it released the magic smoke] |
| 03:10.55 | RobotGuy | Does anyone really see MY point of view though? |
| 03:11.03 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the one and only time i paid $2000+ for a board was the first and last time |
| 03:11.04 | SpeedEvil | RobotGuy: of course. |
| 03:11.36 | SpeedEvil | RobotGuy: just don't expect buisnesses to help you if it doesn't go to making them money. |
| 03:11.37 | wmat | RobotGuy: I understand completely and agree with your purchase of the Rowley toolchain |
| 03:11.37 | prpplague | RobotGuy: we do, its basically we are saying don't support someone like rowely that takes the money and runs |
| 03:11.37 | RobotGuy | Don't get me wrong now.. I really WISH I could afford to pick and use whatever tools I wanted regardless of price. |
| 03:11.40 | SpeedEvil | Some will of course. |
| 03:12.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I do understand. |
| 03:12.21 | wmat | RobotGuy: and if you think CodeSourcery is expensive, you should see some of the other vendors |
| 03:12.26 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i have about 4 or 5 commercial products available to me, and i still use uclibc toolchains, hehe |
| 03:12.31 | RobotGuy | wmat: I have looked. |
| 03:12.52 | RobotGuy | I still have a Keil CD I haven't even bothered with. |
| 03:13.24 | prpplague | ha actually i think i might have codesorucery cd |
| 03:13.45 | davidc__ | prpplague: heh, same.. I always just roll my own toolchains, or use crosstool / crossdev, because usually I want a certain libc/platform/host combo |
| 03:13.47 | RobotGuy | I just can't handle the frustrations of building my own toolchain. |
| 03:14.13 | prpplague | wmat: omg, i hace a codesoucery cd from 1999 |
| 03:14.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thats just it, you don't build anything, download and type make |
| 03:14.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thats all you are doing with buildroot |
| 03:15.08 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I may have missed this ease of building somewhere. Are you talking about crosstool? |
| 03:15.29 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: crosstool, or crossdev on gentoo, or uclibc buildroot |
| 03:15.31 | prpplague | RobotGuy: there are many |
| 03:15.49 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: crossdev on gentoo is usually quite painless, as long as you stick to gcc3 for arm |
| 03:15.52 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you do realize that buildroot is generating a toolchain right? |
| 03:16.09 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Yes, I know that. Seems pretty painless and it does work. |
| 03:16.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: alot of that "painless" portion is code donations from companies like codesourcery |
| 03:16.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy: its gotten really easy over the last 2 or 3 years |
| 03:17.04 | RobotGuy | The other aspect of all this is which IDE would I use? I don't really care for Eclipse, but have Code::Blocks here also, and there is KDevelop too, which I find a little overwhelming. |
| 03:17.20 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: I use gvim, make + gdb for all my needs |
| 03:17.31 | RobotGuy | What is gvim? |
| 03:17.37 | RobotGuy | Like the vim editor? |
| 03:17.38 | prpplague | gnome vim |
| 03:17.40 | prpplague | yea |
| 03:17.40 | davidc__ | vim in a gui |
| 03:18.21 | RobotGuy | I might have to test out Code::Blocks some. |
| 03:19.32 | RobotGuy | When all is said and done, all I want is a solid toolchain and IDE for whatever MCU or processor I want to develop for. |
| 03:19.53 | davidc__ | Eclipse is a nice IDE, but it just crawls on OSX, which is what my cur desktop is |
| 03:19.54 | wmat | prpplague: I'll be placing my Hammer order shortly, like tonight |
| 03:20.17 | prpplague | wmat: hehe |
| 03:20.55 | prpplague | wmat: shame you didn't get it sooner, we got a PR comming out in the feb issue of circuit cellar |
| 03:21.00 | prpplague | wmat: still |
| 03:21.04 | RobotGuy | Not too bad.. Python and Boa in 19 MB uncompressed. |
| 03:21.13 | prpplague | yea |
| 03:21.44 | joe_bleau | Are y'all using these IDE to debug (maybe through gdb), or just edit/compile? |
| 03:21.57 | wmat | davidc__: i'd like to see Eclipse improve on OS X as well |
| 03:22.01 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Answer me this.. Seriously, would you want me to go CodeSourcery or Crossworks, knowing my situation moneywise? $64K question here. :D |
| 03:22.07 | davidc__ | wmat: I strongly suspect its apple's java |
| 03:22.18 | wmat | prpplague: why? you going to sell out? |
| 03:22.30 | wmat | prpplague: oh, you mean for CodeSourcery's benefit? |
| 03:22.51 | wmat | joe_bleau: I debug in Eclipse too |
| 03:23.12 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: I'd like to use it for both, but eclipse just drags, even when its the only thing open on a fast machine |
| 03:23.25 | davidc__ | wmat: apparently one of the open java replacements [like Java6] is considerably faster |
| 03:23.32 | davidc__ | in terms of running eclipse |
| 03:23.39 | joe_bleau | After seeing how Eclipse edits on my machines, I've never bothered to try debug. |
| 03:23.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: actually neither, if you got money issues, you should stick to pure open source |
| 03:24.04 | prpplague | wmat: yea, it would have been nice to put in a note about codesourcery support |
| 03:24.05 | SpeedEvil | Well. |
| 03:24.18 | SpeedEvil | Sometimes pure open source costs you money. |
| 03:24.39 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I agree. I've just had too many problems trying to generate a current version toolchain. |
| 03:24.41 | SpeedEvil | Spending a week on something vs buying it. |
| 03:24.44 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: what OS/JDK you using? |
| 03:24.55 | joe_bleau | win2k/Sun something or another. |
| 03:24.55 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: stay away from GCC4 for arm if you go the build your own route |
| 03:24.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, didn't have that much trouble with buildroot, hehe |
| 03:25.14 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: gcc3 is rock solid in my experience, but 4 drives me nuts |
| 03:25.24 | prpplague | agreed |
| 03:25.41 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Good point. |
| 03:25.44 | davidc__ | not to mention some versions of 4 have a bug in the ISR generation |
| 03:25.59 | davidc__ | for ARM [IIRC it was 4, can't quite remember the details] |
| 03:26.18 | prpplague | davidc__: hey, where in ca are you again? |
| 03:26.30 | davidc__ | prpplague: Vancouver, BC |
| 03:26.34 | prpplague | ahh |
| 03:26.38 | davidc__ | why d'you ask? |
| 03:26.47 | prpplague | davidc__: blackcomb /whistler area, hehe |
| 03:27.07 | prpplague | davidc__: just curious , my wife has like 100000000000 cousins in ca |
| 03:27.08 | davidc__ | yup, its nice being 2 hours away from kickass skiing :P |
| 03:27.23 | joe_bleau | davidc__: are you near Delta, CA? |
| 03:27.32 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: yup |
| 03:27.46 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: quite close in fact |
| 03:27.53 | joe_bleau | We use a CM in Delta for some of our boards. |
| 03:28.08 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: oh, which one? |
| 03:28.12 | joe_bleau | PTL |
| 03:28.15 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Delta+BC+to+Vancouver+BC&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl <- that close in fact :P |
| 03:29.12 | davidc__ | haven't used PTL before... they're more expensive than some of the competition I've found :P |
| 03:29.34 | *** join/#edev samuelr (n=samuelr@dsl093-061-094.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 03:29.36 | prpplague | davidc__: if you ever make it to montreal or ottawa, i'll have to hook you up, hehe |
| 03:29.41 | joe_bleau | We've found that they were almost always competitive. Good quality though. |
| 03:29.59 | joe_bleau | (Less so recently, obviously.) |
| 03:30.08 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: in terms of quality, or competitiveness? |
| 03:30.29 | joe_bleau | price. Exchange rate doesn't favor selling to the USA... |
| 03:30.35 | davidc__ | joe_bleau: yeah, doesn't |
| 03:31.21 | davidc__ | prpplague: oh, you're in that area? |
| 03:31.49 | prpplague | davidc__: not i, my wife's 100000000000000 cousins |
| 03:31.51 | RobotGuy | OK, who want to build me a toolchain with the latest and greatest of gcc3 and such for ARM (and AVR)? |
| 03:32.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you did when you did the buildroot |
| 03:34.38 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Hmmmmph. Can't pull the wool over YOUR eyes, can I? :P |
| 03:34.55 | prpplague | hehe nope |
| 03:36.30 | RobotGuy | I still have a kernel panic, and I did everything you said. :( I do not know what I am doing wrong. |
| 03:37.02 | davidc__ | kernel panic where? |
| 03:37.06 | davidc__ | on the host, or the device? |
| 03:37.51 | wmat | RobotGuy: are you purely a hobbyist, or do you hope to sell your code in some form? |
| 03:38.15 | prpplague | davidc__: http://www.imagebin.ca/view/FfD6A0q.html , http://www.imagebin.ca/view/pn-UCw8q.html , http://www.imagebin.ca/view/9HfxsYjs.html |
| 03:38.28 | davidc__ | ? |
| 03:38.32 | prpplague | RobotGuy: uh what did i say to do? |
| 03:38.42 | prpplague | davidc__: some of my wife's cousins |
| 03:38.50 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/850321 |
| 03:38.51 | davidc__ | ......... |
| 03:39.06 | RobotGuy | I set the environment in apex and reset the Hammer |
| 03:39.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you still trying to boot that image? anything over 10mb isn't going to boot |
| 03:39.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy: initrd is intended to be small and light |
| 03:40.28 | RobotGuy | Why am I building a rootfs then? Am I not putting software on my Hammer? |
| 03:40.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: there are many types of rootfs |
| 03:40.50 | prpplague | RobotGuy: and you can use them in combination with each other |
| 03:40.51 | RobotGuy | Not this again. |
| 03:40.54 | davidc__ | 10MB initrd? yeah, thats gonna choke |
| 03:40.55 | prpplague | hehe |
| 03:41.02 | RobotGuy | I feel so stupid. |
| 03:41.12 | prpplague | davidc__: actually he's trying to use something like 19mb |
| 03:41.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, its a learning process |
| 03:42.22 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you use the initrd to do you basic system, then use the jffs2 image for the portions that you want to add |
| 03:42.46 | RobotGuy | I don't need to build a rootfs then. |
| 03:43.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, yes you do need a root filesystem |
| 03:43.10 | davidc__ | thats what runs on the jffs2 part |
| 03:43.36 | RobotGuy | I just said I don't need to build one. |
| 03:44.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, you'll need to build one, but you'll need to configure it for your specific needs |
| 03:45.01 | prpplague | RobotGuy: for instance, currently the jffs is mounted as /mnt/flash |
| 03:45.21 | prpplague | RobotGuy: based on the image you posted, the best solution would be to mount the jffs as /usr |
| 03:45.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: so the initrd starts up, gets everything running, then mounts /usr |
| 03:45.58 | prpplague | RobotGuy: where all your python and related libs are stored |
| 03:46.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, but now I am lost again. I thought I was starting to understand. |
| 03:46.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: what part are you confused on? |
| 03:47.28 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It sounds like I will have to hand configure part of the rootfs that goes into the initramdisk. Is that even close? |
| 03:48.03 | RobotGuy | And Python is too big to put on Hammer. |
| 03:48.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: nope, no correct |
| 03:48.28 | prpplague | RobotGuy: python will fit, you just have to do it differently |
| 03:48.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I thought that's what I was doing when I build a rootfs. |
| 03:49.15 | RobotGuy | I would rather have Squeak. |
| 03:49.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i think you are confusing a some terms |
| 03:49.22 | RobotGuy | An Boa |
| 03:49.52 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Most likely. A lot of people seem to interchange some critcal terms, which isn't right. |
| 03:50.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: root filesystem includes everything that goes together on the system, that can include for multiple filesystems and multiple mount points |
| 03:50.49 | prpplague | RobotGuy: root filesystem refers simply to the files that populate the root filesystem |
| 03:50.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: not the format or where they are stored |
| 03:51.05 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That I understand, and I understand about the initramdisk. I just did not get how to do the initramdisk image. |
| 03:52.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I also don't get how to get the real root file system onto the Hammer's flash. |
| 03:52.27 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i should have some tomorrow to generate a couple of configs for you to test with |
| 03:52.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: real root? |
| 03:52.50 | RobotGuy | Sorry to be such a problem. I thought I was making progress. |
| 03:52.58 | davidc__ | something you also can do is just pivot_root |
| 03:53.05 | RobotGuy | prpplague: The root where my software I want will be, on the flash. |
| 03:53.08 | davidc__ | aka, have a tiny rootfs that just brings up the jffs2 mount |
| 03:53.12 | davidc__ | then pivot_root to jffs2 |
| 03:53.20 | RobotGuy | Please don't confuse me. |
| 03:54.19 | prpplague | davidc__: in this case it would be better to use the initrd and just mount the jffs as /usr |
| 03:55.43 | davidc__ | RobotGuy: eh, listen to prpplague, he knows the hammer better than I |
| 03:55.56 | prpplague | davidc__: hehe |
| 03:56.11 | davidc__ | seeing as he designed it, and I don't have one :P |
| 03:56.19 | prpplague | davidc__: normally that would be the case, but to optomize the space, a combination of initrd and a jffs2 work best |
| 03:56.24 | prpplague | davidc__: hehe |
| 03:56.42 | RobotGuy | I just want to get one language onto my Hammer that I can program W.A.L.T.E.R. in. I need something to show that actually USES Hammer. |
| 03:56.54 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 03:57.05 | RobotGuy | I do listen to prpplague even though he probably doesn't think so sometimes. |
| 03:57.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, the thing about embedded is that its always about trade-offs |
| 03:57.45 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I understand that. |
| 03:57.52 | prpplague | RobotGuy: go to your main buildroot dir and do a make menuconfig |
| 03:57.59 | RobotGuy | I'll trade you one Python for a Squeak. :D |
| 03:59.00 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 03:59.10 | prpplague | RobotGuy: go to the target options |
| 03:59.30 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 03:59.47 | prpplague | RobotGuy: see there that you can choose jffs2 as an option? |
| 04:00.08 | RobotGuy | Yes |
| 04:00.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: so with the correct configuration you build one image that has all of the main items in a initrd image, then using another config, you build the items like python for the jffs2 |
| 04:01.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: so you end up with two images, a initrd and a jffs2 image that get loaded onto the hammer |
| 04:01.28 | RobotGuy | OK. I'm not sure what I need in the initrd image. |
| 04:01.28 | prpplague | RobotGuy: now |
| 04:01.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the initrd will have everything except what goes in the /usr dir |
| 04:01.57 | RobotGuy | I understand the difference in the images now, I think. |
| 04:02.02 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 04:02.05 | prpplague | RobotGuy: so what happens is when you turn on the hammer |
| 04:03.06 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the kernel boots, it then uses part of the sdram as a "fake" harddrive and generates all of the basic operations from the initrd |
| 04:03.21 | RobotGuy | Even regular Linux on a PC does that. |
| 04:03.35 | prpplague | RobotGuy: correct |
| 04:03.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: but here is where it differs from a pc |
| 04:03.54 | RobotGuy | The only difference is size of resources. |
| 04:03.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: normally on a pc the initrd then mounts another rootfs and switches to it |
| 04:04.21 | prpplague | RobotGuy: on the hammer, what you would do is continue to use the initrd, and mount the jffs2 image on /usr |
| 04:04.34 | RobotGuy | Oh, OK. |
| 04:04.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the /usr on the flash, which you'll have about 14mb to play with |
| 04:04.53 | prpplague | RobotGuy: following me? |
| 04:05.05 | RobotGuy | Yes, I believe so now. |
| 04:05.29 | RobotGuy | Like the /usr partition I have on my PC. |
| 04:05.37 | prpplague | RobotGuy: exactly |
| 04:05.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: now, once you get your thumb drive, you can configure it to mount /usr from the thumb drive |
| 04:06.18 | RobotGuy | OK, more storage. What do I do with the flash then? |
| 04:06.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you take your thumb drive, copy your test programs and apps to the thumb drive from your pc, plug it into hammer and it mounts as /usr |
| 04:06.53 | RobotGuy | I'm used to moving software around different partitions on a Linux box. |
| 04:07.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy: once you have the thumbdrive you can move the jffs2 flash around to something else, like /usr/local |
| 04:07.36 | RobotGuy | OK. |
| 04:08.22 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the initrd is just there to get the system up, you can put all the other stuff in mini "partitions" if you want to look at it that way |
| 04:08.28 | RobotGuy | OK, so exactly what should I have in my initramdisk image? |
| 04:08.55 | RobotGuy | Do I need to build a new initram image when I go from flash to thumbdrive? |
| 04:09.01 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'll have to go over your image that you posted and look to see whats best |
| 04:09.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, you'll need to tweak the mount points when you change |
| 04:09.27 | prpplague | RobotGuy: but nothing major |
| 04:09.38 | RobotGuy | I am used to that - always tinkering with /etc/fstab |
| 04:10.37 | RobotGuy | What do I have to do to get Squeak onto my Hammer? |
| 04:11.01 | prpplague | still looking, i have it compiled for arm, just not sure what to do with it |
| 04:11.05 | prpplague | RobotGuy: brb |
| 04:11.07 | RobotGuy | I can probably cut my .size way back. |
| 04:11.09 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 04:12.10 | RobotGuy | I need a break to get some food. |
| 04:12.55 | RobotGuy | I'll be back in a bit. See you tomorrow if you aren't on when I get back. Thanks for your patience. |
| 04:13.31 | joe_bleau | Hey, has anyone seen any spiffy DIN rail mount embedded computers? |
| 04:13.44 | joe_bleau | Something with ethernet (or wireless) and a few serial ports? |
| 04:14.09 | joe_bleau | Prefer good spring or screw contact terminals for the serial connectors. |
| 04:14.25 | joe_bleau | Bonus points for RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 ports. CAN would be good too. |
| 04:15.15 | joe_bleau | Linux, open source RTOS, or bare metal firmware ok. No window ce. |
| 04:15.28 | MonMotha | most PLCs fit that description |
| 04:15.40 | MonMotha | though you'll be stuck programming with their (usually terrible) software |
| 04:15.58 | MonMotha | mmm...ladder logic |
| 04:16.07 | joe_bleau | Yeah, not interested at all. Good some AB junk in the garage and can't get rid of it. |
| 04:18.15 | MonMotha | that said, most PLCs are just micro based these days |
| 04:18.23 | MonMotha | you might be able to load your own code fairly trivially |
| 04:18.32 | MonMotha | you won't have a BSP, though |
| 04:19.14 | joe_bleau | Most PLCs that I've seen are modular, so you'd end up with a long stack of boxes to get the ports. |
| 04:19.20 | joe_bleau | And I'm not looking for I/O points. |
| 04:27.44 | prpplague | ok, note to self |
| 04:28.06 | prpplague | english stout does not go well with cheetos, it will make your stomach upset |
| 04:29.25 | MonMotha | god dammit, libhid doens't support instancs |
| 04:29.29 | MonMotha | *instances |
| 04:31.36 | MonMotha | it also doesn't appear to support usage ranges |
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| 13:38.50 | SpeedEvil | Offtopic - has anyone done any CSR bluetooth chip programnming? I'm wondering if I can use it for interesting stuff as a hammer-add-on-board perhaps. |
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| 14:32.36 | chouimat|work | morning |
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| 14:52.04 | prpplague | RoboAway: http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=DRV11234 |
| 14:52.29 | RobotGuy | Good Morning |
| 14:52.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=CPM10477 |
| 14:53.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: both of those would work well for you |
| 14:53.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: cheap too |
| 14:53.49 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That looks great! Thanks, I will remember this. |
| 14:53.59 | RobotGuy | I think I want to get one of those. |
| 14:54.29 | RobotGuy | That would make for a nice /usr |
| 14:55.22 | prpplague | yep either one |
| 14:56.02 | RobotGuy | Nice and small too! |
| 14:56.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: dave hyland has squeak buildroot config |
| 14:57.06 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I saw that. :D |
| 14:57.20 | RobotGuy | Where do I put the 00-Makeinfo patch? |
| 14:58.08 | RobotGuy | Is there a way I can easily add a package to my buildroot? |
| 14:59.08 | RobotGuy | I am trying to update the wiki now with stuff like this. |
| 15:00.44 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'm running a test build down |
| 15:00.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy: let me test it first |
| 15:01.13 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Oh, OK |
| 15:05.09 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I'm going to get some food and will be back in an hour or so. |
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| 16:06.01 | Mirell | Arg. |
| 16:06.27 | chouimat|work | hi |
| 16:10.28 | RobotGuy | Greetings |
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| 17:15.01 | RobotGuy | What is everyone working on today? |
| 17:15.52 | CosmicPenguin | The usual |
| 17:15.58 | CosmicPenguin | x86 everywhere |
| 17:16.05 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I'm building a new buildroot. |
| 17:16.12 | prpplague | RobotGuy: well squeak compiles and is in the image, but i have no clue what to do with it |
| 17:16.15 | RobotGuy | Hammer everything! |
| 17:16.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: There is one file that has to be put in particular place - the sources file from a different archive. |
| 17:17.11 | prpplague | hmm |
| 17:17.15 | RobotGuy | I figure everyone can get whatever image they want to use. |
| 17:17.27 | RobotGuy | I should have the archive with that in it |
| 17:17.49 | RobotGuy | My cat should love me even more.. |
| 17:19.40 | RobotGuy | There is an archive with image, changes, and sources files. I'll find where the sources file has to be. |
| 17:20.46 | prpplague | could not find module vm-display-null |
| 17:20.46 | prpplague | Aborted |
| 17:22.17 | RobotGuy | Hmmmmmmmm |
| 17:23.20 | RobotGuy | I bet that is in the sources file. |
| 17:23.30 | RobotGuy | If I remember correctly. |
| 17:23.41 | prpplague | dave hylands doesn't mention anything about a source file |
| 17:25.12 | RobotGuy | You need http://ftp.squeak.org/3.9/SqueakV39.sources.gz |
| 17:26.10 | prpplague | i already have the source file |
| 17:26.57 | RobotGuy | What error did it give when it aborted |
| 17:28.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Were you trying to exectute Squeak when it aborted? |
| 17:29.31 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:29.43 | RobotGuy | Do you have the sources file where it should be/ |
| 17:30.15 | RobotGuy | It needs an image and changes file. You execute squeak <name> and it loads <name>.image |
| 17:30.56 | RobotGuy | You also need <name>.changes which comes with the image. |
| 17:31.02 | prpplague | yea, i know per dave's page |
| 17:31.12 | prpplague | ahh i didn't read his email all the way |
| 17:31.25 | prpplague | On the |
| 17:31.25 | prpplague | Hammer, it built without errors, but it created static libraries |
| 17:31.25 | prpplague | rather than dynamic libraries in the /usr/lib/squeak/ 3.6-3 directory, |
| 17:31.25 | prpplague | so I'm pretty sure it won't work properly. |
| 17:31.45 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Hmmm, OK. |
| 17:32.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: looks like his configure script has something broken for libtool |
| 17:32.43 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Did you get all the changes to the configure script in there? |
| 17:33.12 | RobotGuy | Or are you starting out with Dave's build package? |
| 17:33.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea |
| 17:33.17 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 17:33.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: starting with dave's package |
| 17:33.48 | RobotGuy | prpplague: This may be a change needed unique to Hammer then. |
| 17:33.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: no |
| 17:34.07 | prpplague | RobotGuy: something is broken on his libtool checks |
| 17:34.12 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK |
| 17:34.49 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Probably should post in the PARTS thread about this. |
| 17:35.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: he already did |
| 17:36.35 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I got a nice developer image. It has all the code highlighting and such modules already added. |
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| 17:42.06 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea there is a linker check that is failing |
| 17:42.16 | prpplague | RobotGuy: btw, i figured out your passwd set error |
| 17:42.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the fix will be in the next buildroot post |
| 17:43.10 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool on the password thing. |
| 17:43.17 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Ah, good, fix on the way then. |
| 17:44.15 | RobotGuy | I got a little smart - moved the buildroot/dl dir above buildroot and linked to it. |
| 17:47.31 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, the libtool check is broken |
| 17:47.44 | RobotGuy | I may take a little trip to CompUSA today to look at thumb drives. Sometimes they have some good deals on good stuff. |
| 17:48.14 | RobotGuy | Is there a particular type of thumb drive I need for Hammer? |
| 17:48.26 | CosmicPenguin | Haven't they closed already? |
| 17:48.31 | RobotGuy | Closed what? |
| 17:49.04 | CosmicPenguin | http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/out-of-business/compusa-throws-in-the-towel-sells-to-a-liquidator-331568.php |
| 17:49.26 | agaffney | old news |
| 17:49.40 | CosmicPenguin | they stayed open? |
| 17:49.53 | RobotGuy | agaffney: It's new news to me. |
| 17:50.11 | agaffney | that article is from a month ago |
| 17:50.27 | CosmicPenguin | your point is? |
| 17:50.36 | agaffney | just saying :P |
| 17:51.08 | CosmicPenguin | It was topical - RobotGuy says he's going to CompUSA, I asked if they have closed, he didn't know the story |
| 17:51.13 | CosmicPenguin | I'm not a random URL poster |
| 17:51.31 | RobotGuy | CosmicPenguin: I appreciate that. |
| 17:52.33 | RobotGuy | CompUSA is the only computer store I can get to easily. If they have closed, I am not going to have a local source unless I have Norvac Electronics special order for me. |
| 17:55.25 | RobotGuy | I still need to find something small that can run Linux I can connect to Hammer. Has to be small and light enough for me to take anywhere I go on my power wheel chair. |
| 17:55.54 | RobotGuy | The best I have found so far is a $499.00 laptop at Best Buy (oh yeah, they are another source, sort of). |
| 17:56.00 | SpeedEvil | (ebay) |
| 17:56.06 | RobotGuy | I don't do ebay. |
| 18:00.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea definetly a problem with the linker check, i've hard coded it, testing now |
| 18:02.28 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool |
| 18:02.57 | RobotGuy | I am having trouble creating an account at Surplus Computers. :( No indication of the error. |
| 18:03.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: odd |
| 18:03.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Yeah. It could be my browser - Konquorer |
| 18:09.32 | RobotGuy | Wow, $7.47 for shipping. Almost as much as the thumb drive. |
| 18:11.05 | RobotGuy | Brian at Novac wants to see Hammer, so I am taking it with me the next time I go there. |
| 18:11.09 | RobotGuy | Norvac |
| 18:12.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: all you ordered was the thumb drives? |
| 18:12.15 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have not ordered anything yet. I am low on cash right now. |
| 18:12.22 | prpplague | wmat: order has been changed to ship via USPS |
| 18:12.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ahh ok |
| 18:13.07 | RobotGuy | I have another doctor appointment Tuesday - $25.00 copay. :( |
| 18:14.55 | prpplague | bbiab |
| 18:15.23 | RobotGuy | Hey, lunch isn't for another two hours! ;) |
| 18:23.02 | wmat | prpplague: thx for changing the shipping! |
| 18:24.39 | RobotGuy | He's at lunch |
| 18:25.16 | RobotGuy | Hmmm, that must mean he's out to lunch.. Heh heh heh |
| 18:42.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy: someone in the portland area ordered a kit |
| 18:43.17 | prpplague | wmat: when you guys are done, we'd like to do a joint PR |
| 18:55.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Excellent! |
| 18:56.31 | RobotGuy | I just finished putting the last servos into my BRAT. Now I can connect them to my SSC-32 and start testing. |
| 18:57.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i wonder if its scheer that ordered it |
| 18:57.33 | prpplague | wmat: your confirmation email will still say UPS, but it will go via USPS |
| 18:57.43 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I will have to find out. I know he's been very keanly interested in Hammer since he saw mine. |
| 18:58.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the boss usually cc's me on the confirmation email, so i'll know when the package is shipped |
| 18:58.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool. |
| 18:59.04 | RobotGuy | It is quite different than most languages. |
| 18:59.29 | RobotGuy | I want to have both Python and Squeak on walter. |
| 19:00.15 | RobotGuy | Hammer is small enough to even put on my BRAT, but not using the Carrier board. |
| 19:01.06 | RobotGuy | Squeak (SmallTalk) is an AI language, much used in the Computer Sciences. |
| 19:01.46 | RobotGuy | I have to figure out how to make Squeak on Hammer talk to the X-Display on my PC. |
| 19:02.08 | prpplague | RobotGuy: that should be easy enough |
| 19:03.46 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I hope so. |
| 19:04.00 | prpplague | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8833552024.html |
| 19:04.11 | prpplague | add a usb keyboard and mouse you have a terminal |
| 19:05.04 | RobotGuy | Oh wow, that has an i.MX31 in it. :D:D |
| 19:05.25 | RobotGuy | With that photo display for the display?? |
| 19:05.37 | RobotGuy | I bet it is expensive. |
| 19:07.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: where is the default image for squeak when you do a build? |
| 19:09.13 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You just put the image (rename to <name>.image and changes (rename to <name>.changes) files into a dir and do squeak <name> |
| 19:09.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the image file doesn't get built with the normal source? |
| 19:09.32 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea where do the image files and changes come from? |
| 19:09.36 | RobotGuy | prpplague: No. You start from an existing image |
| 19:09.45 | prpplague | oh |
| 19:09.56 | prpplague | thats lame |
| 19:10.36 | RobotGuy | There is a file called Squeak3.9-final-7067.zip that has that, or you can get the developer image, which is what I am using now - nice setup. |
| 19:12.33 | RobotGuy | prpplague: There is history in the image files, going way back to Xerox PARC. |
| 19:14.05 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ok, i've got squeak on my desktop, how do i execute commands? |
| 19:15.57 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You just put the image (rename to <name>.image and changes (rename to <name>.changes) files into a dir and do squeak <name> |
| 19:16.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ok, now what? |
| 19:16.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i have the screens open |
| 19:16.47 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool! Get Squeak by Example (free book) www.squeakbyexample.org |
| 19:16.56 | prpplague | i don't think so |
| 19:16.58 | RobotGuy | That's what I am using now. |
| 19:17.07 | prpplague | RobotGuy: so now how do i execute some commands? |
| 19:17.22 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I haven't got that far yet. ;) |
| 19:17.33 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Still learning the environment. |
| 19:17.48 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You really need Squeak By Example. |
| 19:18.11 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i just need to do a couple of tests |
| 19:18.22 | RobotGuy | It shows how to execute simple commands though. |
| 19:18.27 | hapchap | wait... squeak is just SmallTalk? |
| 19:18.29 | RobotGuy | hang on |
| 19:18.32 | RobotGuy | hapchap: Yes |
| 19:18.36 | hapchap | RobotGuy: awsome |
| 19:18.50 | hapchap | RobotGuy: I have to check it out now |
| 19:19.00 | prpplague | hapchap: you know smalltalk? |
| 19:19.10 | hapchap | prpplague: not really... |
| 19:19.17 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Open the browser. Open Workspace and Transcript windows. |
| 19:19.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: done |
| 19:20.09 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Type 3 + 4 in workspace, highlight it, middle click the workspace window and select 'do it' from the menu. |
| 19:20.24 | prpplague | eh gads |
| 19:21.12 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hmm nothing happened |
| 19:21.47 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Nothing in the Transcript window? |
| 19:22.01 | prpplague | RobotGuy: nothing for that |
| 19:22.12 | prpplague | RobotGuy: but the tinybenchmark executed on command |
| 19:22.15 | prpplague | this is terrible |
| 19:23.02 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, do this: Type "Transcript show: 'hello world'; cr." (now double quotes) |
| 19:23.09 | RobotGuy | In Workspace |
| 19:23.46 | RobotGuy | Remember to highlight the sentence and click 'do it' on the menu like last time. |
| 19:25.18 | prpplague | hmm nothing |
| 19:25.36 | RobotGuy | Hmmm, you should see "hello world" in the transcript window. |
| 19:25.56 | RobotGuy | Don't use the double quotes. |
| 19:26.04 | prpplague | ahh it went that time |
| 19:26.12 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Wonderful!! |
| 19:26.23 | RobotGuy | Squeak on Hammer talking to X? |
| 19:26.34 | prpplague | RobotGuy: no |
| 19:26.39 | prpplague | RobotGuy: just on my desktop |
| 19:26.47 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Oh, OK. |
| 19:27.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i haven't been able to get it working on the hammer, so i figured i'd test on desktop first |
| 19:28.22 | prpplague | very interesting |
| 19:28.33 | RobotGuy | I like it. :D |
| 19:29.06 | RobotGuy | It seems really slow on my PC. |
| 19:29.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: there isn't just a text editor you can run edit and run files? |
| 19:29.29 | RobotGuy | BUT, I also have 9 workspaces open with stuff on them. :D:D |
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| 19:33.43 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It's a different way of doing stuff. I have not got that far yet. There is an editor where you create your objects and such. |
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| 19:37.26 | RobotGuy | This is so cool! |
| 19:42.08 | prpplague | RobotGuy: glad someone thinks that it is cool hehe |
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| 19:48.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Hee hee :P |
| 19:48.33 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have a 1.9 MB rootfs for the initramdisk. |
| 19:48.50 | prpplague | RobotGuy: stil unable to do any tests |
| 19:49.03 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I set .size to 2 MB but may need it a bit larger. |
| 19:49.13 | RobotGuy | prpplague: What tests? Squeak on Hammer? |
| 19:50.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy: any tests |
| 19:50.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: For Squeak to work on Hammer, it will need to talk to a remote X display. |
| 19:50.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i can get squeak to do anything |
| 19:50.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: On your desktop? |
| 19:50.47 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:51.06 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Did it do the Transcript show thing? |
| 19:51.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea there some activity |
| 19:51.42 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Did you see hello world in the transcript window? |
| 19:51.58 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:52.10 | RobotGuy | You type in Workspace and see results there or in the Transcript window. |
| 19:52.16 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea |
| 19:52.35 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, now type 3 + 7 in Workspace, highlight, and do print it from the menu. |
| 19:53.47 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, all of that works |
| 19:53.56 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, it is working then. |
| 19:54.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: none of that is useful for anything though |
| 19:54.26 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i need to be able to execute an app |
| 19:54.34 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I know that. Squeak is not meant to be used like a calculator. |
| 19:55.00 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Hmmmmmmm. I know! I guess I will have to complete the testing! :D |
| 19:55.29 | RobotGuy | Oh, woh is me, got to test Squeak on Hammer. Will I survive? |
| 19:55.51 | RobotGuy | We need to get this into the hands of Rober Sheer. |
| 19:56.06 | RobotGuy | Or Jon Hylands. |
| 19:56.26 | RobotGuy | I am just a very new Squeaker. |
| 20:04.23 | SpeedEvil | Is there #squeak? |
| 20:04.35 | RobotGuy | Yes |
| 20:04.49 | RobotGuy | prpplague and I are there now |
| 20:47.54 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/851283 |
| 20:54.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'd just turn off some of the drivers you aren't using |
| 20:54.45 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I'll look and see what I can maybe turn off. |
| 20:54.55 | prpplague | 1.1mb is pretty large |
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| 20:55.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have a lot of modules for stuff I am going to be working with. |
| 20:55.55 | landley | Did nail boards ever happen? |
| 20:56.11 | prpplague | landley: they go to the pcb house on monday |
| 20:56.22 | landley | Cool. |
| 20:56.24 | prpplague | landley: we found several problems during the DRC |
| 20:56.29 | landley | So what's the current spec fo them look like? |
| 20:56.31 | landley | Such as? |
| 20:57.13 | prpplague | landley: couple caps incorrect values, some swapped i/o lines, couple of places where some pullup resistors needed to be |
| 20:57.17 | prpplague | landley: nothing major |
| 20:57.53 | prpplague | landley: 2 leds, 2 buttons, i/o header that can be used with jumpers or an expansion board, usb host connector, usb slave connector |
| 20:58.01 | prpplague | landley: 1.1" x 1.1" x 5" |
| 20:58.30 | landley | Nice. |
| 20:58.49 | landley | I should fill in the hardware list on thyme.html with some actual information and links... |
| 20:58.54 | prpplague | landley: gotta run get the kids, be back in 20 minutes |
| 20:59.37 | landley | ok |
| 21:21.26 | chouimat|work | all: run for your life!!!! |
| 21:23.16 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:27.18 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Should I go with JFFS2 for my file system? |
| 21:27.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy: it all depends, let me finish testing and i'll let you know |
| 21:27.56 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK |
| 21:31.52 | landley | Where was that jffs2 loopback mounting link again? |
| 21:35.29 | RobotGuy | I have to go for a bit, but will bbl. |
| 21:43.58 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-3753.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 22:07.00 | *** join/#edev samuelr (n=samuelr@dsl093-061-094.pit1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:40.02 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@163.181.251.103) |
| 22:40.13 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 22:45.07 | CosmicPenguin | btw - following on what we were talking about yesterday |
| 22:45.09 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.inter-sections.net/2007/11/13/how-to-recognise-a-good-programmer/ |
| 22:45.12 | CosmicPenguin | I agree with all of those points |
| 22:45.17 | CosmicPenguin | Notice that work experience isn't one of them |
| 22:50.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, not pulling up for me |
| 22:51.27 | CosmicPenguin | probably slashdotted |
| 22:52.12 | prpplague | ahh |
| 22:58.52 | RobotGuy | It loaded for me. |
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| 23:05.55 | ds2 | CosmicPenguin: why don't they just go one step further and say CS people suck ;) |
| 23:06.20 | CosmicPenguin | I'm a cs guy |
| 23:06.33 | ds2 | oh sorry |
| 23:06.42 | CosmicPenguin | I'll get over it |
| 23:06.55 | CosmicPenguin | back off man, I'm a scientist |
| 23:07.10 | ds2 | <-- came from a school where a CS paper is a consolation prize for not finishing the EE program |
| 23:08.45 | CosmicPenguin | My CS is from the University of Utah, where the Computer Science program still holds most of its former glory |
| 23:13.01 | RobotGuy | Interesting paper. Too bad more companies don't recruit that way. |
| 23:13.44 | RobotGuy | I always got stuck in positions I got bored with and was not allowed to advance, even though I was better at some stuff than degreed folks. |
| 23:14.01 | RobotGuy | I ended up bored and frustrated and just quit. |
| 23:14.43 | RobotGuy | I never got a degree of any sort. Closest I got was a 1 year diploma in Electronics Technology. |
| 23:15.13 | RobotGuy | So, I just learn on my own whatever looks interesting and allows me to do what I want to do. |
| 23:19.59 | ds2 | a |
| 23:20.06 | ds2 | degrees are, IMO, a waste of time |
| 23:20.31 | RobotGuy | Tell that to the recruiters and other Human Resources people. |
| 23:20.51 | ds2 | I do =) |
| 23:21.18 | RobotGuy | Do they actually listen and understand? |
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| 23:22.09 | RobotGuy | I have taught myself 3D CAD in a little over a year. I still don't know how to do some stuff, but I learn when I need it. |
| 23:22.27 | RobotGuy | I did have a good set of 4 training CDs that helped a lot. |
| 23:22.45 | RobotGuy | And helpful people on forums. |
| 23:45.22 | RobotGuy | It sure is lively here today. |
| 23:49.04 | Tigerplug | isn't it just |
| 23:49.15 | Tigerplug | anyone know about getting the ipod touch to work on Ubuntu linux? |
| 23:49.44 | RobotGuy | Not I, sorry. |