| 00:19.36 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp170.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 00:27.21 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@ppp-70-244-174-225.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 00:28.10 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
| 00:28.21 | agaffney | merry christmas |
| 00:28.56 | prpplague | merry freakin saturday |
| 00:29.07 | agaffney | heh, what's wrong today? |
| 00:29.15 | agaffney | I've been to work today, and it's still a good day |
| 00:29.56 | agaffney | I got rid of a piece of hardware I wasn't using anymore, ran to work to pull the CD out of a machine I was working on and reboot it, and put a machine in my rack that's just been sitting around doing nothing |
| 00:30.00 | agaffney | I feel productive :P |
| 00:30.25 | prpplague | lcd woes |
| 00:30.42 | prpplague | gotta get this one working before mid day tuesday |
| 00:32.57 | agaffney | I'm doing a gentoo install on this dell powerapp web 100 I just put in my rack |
| 00:34.10 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 00:34.21 | agaffney | hurray for distcc |
| 00:34.27 | *** join/#edev sunrunner20 (n=jamesdoe@pool-71-252-247-212.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:34.54 | prpplague | i need distcc running on the nail |
| 00:39.21 | flyback | I came so close to building a jtag :/ |
| 00:39.24 | sunrunner20 | any of yall opera users? |
| 00:39.33 | flyback | but the damn pin on the smt only version of a 74hc244 I had in the house |
| 00:39.34 | flyback | broke off |
| 00:39.36 | flyback | prpplague: |
| 00:39.41 | flyback | would a act work for a jtag |
| 00:40.26 | flyback | hey sunrunner20 |
| 00:40.27 | flyback | ltns |
| 00:40.34 | flyback | ever do anything with your juicebox? |
| 00:40.41 | sunrunner20 | yea :) |
| 00:40.46 | flyback | what |
| 00:40.46 | sunrunner20 | looking at stuff |
| 00:40.50 | flyback | eh? |
| 00:41.00 | flyback | you might want to get one of these $10 routers I found |
| 00:41.02 | sunrunner20 | its stowed away waiting |
| 00:41.07 | sunrunner20 | egh? |
| 00:41.57 | prpplague | flyback: act might work |
| 00:42.09 | prpplague | flyback: depends on the voltage range |
| 00:42.25 | flyback | +5 and +3.3 |
| 00:42.38 | flyback | damn |
| 00:42.45 | sunrunner20 | :\ |
| 00:42.45 | flyback | I went thru my entire house of parts |
| 00:42.48 | flyback | could only find 1 chip |
| 00:42.49 | sunrunner20 | unforutnatlyits worthless for me |
| 00:42.56 | flyback | sunrunner20: why |
| 00:42.59 | sunrunner20 | its only 10base T |
| 00:43.03 | flyback | no it's not |
| 00:43.34 | flyback | it's 10/100 all the ports |
| 00:43.44 | sunrunner20 | nm |
| 00:43.48 | flyback | plus a hidden usb 1.1 port inside and a pcmcia perhaps cardbus header |
| 00:45.37 | prpplague | flyback: started a wiki page on elinux? |
| 00:45.44 | flyback | no |
| 00:45.53 | flyback | cause I wanted you geniuses to look at it first :) |
| 00:46.00 | flyback | see if there was a chance in hell of getting code to it |
| 00:46.16 | sunrunner20 | what chip? |
| 00:46.21 | prpplague | flyback: need to start one |
| 00:46.31 | flyback | sd9148 soc from silicon data |
| 00:46.46 | prpplague | flyback: consider it practice |
| 00:46.46 | flyback | they haven't released source for their linuxBSP package afaik |
| 00:46.56 | flyback | hah I have no skills to generate pages etc |
| 00:47.05 | flyback | it takes me 5 hrs to write a rma latter |
| 00:47.19 | flyback | I guess I could try |
| 00:47.27 | flyback | or at least upload the serial text outs I did |
| 00:47.31 | flyback | whatever you call them |
| 00:47.32 | flyback | logs |
| 00:47.44 | flyback | sunrunner20: it's a mips r3000 compatible |
| 00:48.10 | flyback | yeah yeah I know this is a arm channel but still make me useful as a cheap gateway for a embedded device |
| 00:48.28 | prpplague | mips is fine, just document it |
| 00:48.53 | flyback | i'll try |
| 00:49.16 | flyback | yeah |
| 00:49.19 | prpplague | no, do or do not, there is no try |
| 00:49.41 | flyback | i'd break yoda in half after this week at work |
| 00:49.44 | prpplague | hehe |
| 00:49.46 | prpplague | me too |
| 00:49.53 | flyback | trying to get an os on a headless and medialess blade server |
| 00:50.03 | prpplague | yoda would be a darn rug on the wall |
| 00:50.12 | flyback | pxe doesn't want to work right and there is 3 interfaces on them and I can't get the 2 subnets to talk |
| 00:50.21 | flyback | even did a pc with 2 nics and it still gvae me hell |
| 00:50.42 | flyback | I need to wire up a serial console for the front of it |
| 00:50.45 | flyback | so I can see what linux is doing |
| 00:51.00 | flyback | what's nice though is once i get one working I can use the blade managment tools to load up the rest |
| 00:51.27 | flyback | yeah I passed out multiple times in my chair wednesday I was so stressed out |
| 00:52.13 | prpplague | flyback: look back at the juicebox hacks, they didn't happen over night, it all started with a list of the chips on the pocb |
| 00:52.14 | prpplague | pcb |
| 00:52.23 | prpplague | flyback: gotta start somewhere |
| 00:52.31 | flyback | well i am looking at a possible rom hack |
| 00:52.50 | flyback | I have 1 plcc 64kb 3.3v 29xxxxx series nor flash chip |
| 00:52.58 | flyback | from a rendeition video card which NOTHING supports |
| 00:53.28 | flyback | I just don't know if I have to ground out all the cpu holes/via's/whatever they called if I don't use all the address lines |
| 00:54.18 | flyback | smartmedia has gone up too much and xd is still too much for me |
| 00:55.16 | flyback | althoug |
| 00:55.29 | flyback | I guess if I socket the xd I can always reuse, transfer to another unit, sell to someone with a camera |
| 00:55.35 | flyback | hmm |
| 00:55.59 | flyback | that's why I wanted to get the jtag working |
| 00:56.01 | flyback | so I could test code now |
| 00:56.11 | flyback | just uploading enough jtag code to bootstrap to a mmc/sd |
| 00:56.19 | flyback | and see if it's worth investing into for the rest |
| 00:56.54 | flyback | I think I found some AC Logic but it was 576's or something |
| 00:57.33 | flyback | shame there isn't a list of what I can subsititute |
| 00:58.25 | prpplague | flyback: you know for all the effect you've gone through, you could have ordered a flyswatter by now |
| 00:58.36 | flyback | yeah I know I am better now :) |
| 00:58.57 | prpplague | i'm not |
| 00:59.00 | flyback | with my luck though I would trash it and be devistated |
| 00:59.05 | flyback | OMG |
| 00:59.07 | flyback | the horror |
| 00:59.12 | prpplague | indeed |
| 00:59.23 | flyback | thinking about getting something like this |
| 00:59.24 | flyback | http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=RED-G3-4G&cat=CON&cpc=JAD |
| 00:59.30 | flyback | one that is s1mp3 or rockbox compatible |
| 00:59.57 | flyback | I fallen in love with the sansa 512 meg mp3 player I got my dad a few bdays ago I have had it for a month since I fixed it |
| 01:00.11 | flyback | sick of fighting with my palm and linux on it it isn't good enough yet to replace palm os |
| 01:00.47 | flyback | speaking of palm |
| 01:01.09 | flyback | I soldered rs232 wires to my IIIxe's dead mb a while ago for working on it in bootstrap mode to repair the flash |
| 01:01.23 | flyback | mabye I will salvage the blown jtag weekend by playing with that |
| 01:02.05 | flyback | prpplague: know of any good guides for m68k bootstrapping serially |
| 01:02.18 | flyback | like "srecord is this, compile this, put this in cpu next, etc" |
| 01:02.31 | prpplague | flyback: you see the new photos of the nail? |
| 01:02.37 | flyback | no |
| 01:03.03 | flyback | I been so busy with work or crippled by these damn health problems |
| 01:03.26 | flyback | btw prpplague |
| 01:03.27 | flyback | http://flyback.databurn.net/inexq-is050t-with-unex-wbp25-00-08-14h-firmware-unex-same-company.txt |
| 01:03.29 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/Nail_Board |
| 01:03.42 | prpplague | no, i've not done m68k in about a year |
| 01:04.04 | flyback | no OTG usb? |
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| 01:04.57 | prpplague | flyback: s3c2410 don't support otg |
| 01:04.59 | flyback | although I guess you don't need it necessarily to talk to usb devices |
| 01:05.03 | prpplague | flyback: no real need though |
| 01:05.42 | flyback | btw some kingston 8 gb flash drive is down to around $50 on buy.com |
| 01:06.17 | flyback | very nice board btw |
| 01:06.30 | flyback | FT chips :) |
| 01:06.35 | flyback | how did I know that was coming :) |
| 01:07.57 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:08.01 | prpplague | good chips |
| 01:08.10 | flyback | I know :) |
| 01:08.28 | flyback | these prolific ones aren't bad but I tell people usually ftdi is the best |
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| 02:00.27 | RobotGuy | Boo |
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| 05:14.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You there somewhere? |
| 05:50.30 | RobotGuy | How do I get the left over FLASH to mount? |
| 05:52.54 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:53.28 | RobotGuy | I mean the flash that is left after what is taken to store the kernel, initrd, etc. |
| 05:53.48 | RobotGuy | The JFFS2 part. |
| 05:54.11 | SpeedEvil | on the internal NANd? |
| 05:54.27 | RobotGuy | Isn't it NOR? |
| 05:54.41 | SpeedEvil | Are you meaning the hammer? |
| 05:54.54 | RobotGuy | Yes, of course I mean on Hammer. |
| 05:55.13 | SpeedEvil | It's NAND - NOR isn't available in densities over a few meg |
| 05:55.42 | SpeedEvil | typically the flash will be partitioned, and you simply mount the right device |
| 05:55.47 | RobotGuy | OK, so how to I get access to the rest of that 16 MB NAND? |
| 05:56.05 | RobotGuy | It is partitioned. |
| 05:56.18 | RobotGuy | I can't remember the correct device. |
| 05:56.31 | RobotGuy | And I still have a dang length error I can't get rid of. |
| 05:56.34 | SpeedEvil | ls -l /dev/mmb* |
| 05:56.48 | SpeedEvil | or I suppose you don't have it booted |
| 05:57.34 | RobotGuy | I don't have any /dev/mmb* |
| 05:57.53 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:58.27 | RobotGuy | Nope |
| 05:59.45 | SpeedEvil | cat /proc/partitions? |
| 05:59.55 | RobotGuy | I should have /dev/mtd* and /dev/mtdblock* but I don't. |
| 05:59.58 | SpeedEvil | will list the partitions the kernel knows about |
| 06:00.27 | SpeedEvil | oh - that's a seperate issue then - you need the device nodes |
| 06:00.56 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:00.57 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:00.57 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:00.57 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:01.11 | RobotGuy | They are in the device table. |
| 06:01.20 | SpeedEvil | ok - it looks like mtdblock1 is the one you want |
| 06:01.25 | RobotGuy | Yes |
| 06:02.03 | SpeedEvil | cat /proc/devices - find out what teh block number is for that |
| 06:02.12 | SpeedEvil | the block major number |
| 06:02.39 | SpeedEvil | make a block device with the right major number and minor number - 1 - and mount it |
| 06:02.50 | SpeedEvil | mknod |
| 06:03.19 | RobotGuy | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:04.17 | SpeedEvil | mknod mtdbock1 b 31 1 |
| 06:04.19 | RobotGuy | # MTD stuff |
| 06:04.19 | RobotGuy | /dev/mtd c 640 0 0 90 0 0 2 4 |
| 06:04.19 | RobotGuy | /dev/mtdblock b 640 0 0 31 0 0 1 4 |
| 06:04.32 | RobotGuy | The devices should already be created. |
| 06:04.44 | SpeedEvil | well - are tehy? |
| 06:05.37 | RobotGuy | No, they aren't and I don't know why |
| 06:06.03 | SpeedEvil | what should make them in the inmage? |
| 06:08.32 | RobotGuy | I was wrong. The devices are there |
| 06:09.44 | RobotGuy | Woot! It is mounted now. Thanks. |
| 06:10.27 | RobotGuy | The MTD devices are in the devices text file in that Samsung/Hammer dir |
| 06:12.22 | RobotGuy | All set to automout it now. :D |
| 06:13.20 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 06:13.47 | RobotGuy | Now I just have to get rid of the stupid length error. |
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| 07:24.24 | SpeedEvil | can't - easily - brick it if you have JTAG |
| 07:24.53 | RobotGuy | I like unbrickable things. |
| 07:25.56 | SpeedEvil | you can if you burn out the flash due to flashing too often |
| 07:28.42 | RobotGuy | That's like in the 100K flashes though, isn't it? |
| 07:28.58 | SpeedEvil | 1K for some sorts |
| 07:29.07 | RobotGuy | It has to be more than that. |
| 07:29.39 | SpeedEvil | for NOR flash - typically, yes - it's guaranteed to be errorfree for 100K+ writes |
| 07:30.21 | RobotGuy | How about NAND? |
| 07:30.29 | SpeedEvil | for NAND flash, it's guaranteed to have the first block errorfree after 1K writes, and the rest the overall capacity excluding errored blocks over the specified capacity at 100K writed |
| 07:30.38 | SpeedEvil | typically |
| 07:30.49 | RobotGuy | Why is the first block only 1K writes? |
| 07:31.03 | SpeedEvil | because it can't have error correction |
| 07:31.16 | RobotGuy | Ahhh |
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| 14:39.57 | RobotGuy | Good Morning |
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| 14:41.02 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
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| 15:38.23 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: the hammer has NOR flash 16mb |
| 15:44.10 | SpeedEvil | ah - k |
| 15:44.32 | SpeedEvil | Thought it was NAND for some reason. |
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| 16:58.35 | prpplague | anyone know a good simple c app for doing frame buffer testing? |
| 16:59.11 | SpeedEvil | xfb? :) |
| 17:00.08 | prpplague | hmm too complex |
| 17:00.43 | prpplague | maybe i can use fbi |
| 17:02.29 | prpplague | fbi requires too many libs :( |
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| 17:10.18 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: write your own |
| 17:10.19 | CosmicPenguin | its easy and fun |
| 17:13.01 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:13.18 | SpeedEvil | IO've used statically compiled mplayer in the past |
| 17:28.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, thats what i just did |
| 17:29.17 | prpplague | just figured there would a nice little hello world frame buffer test |
| 17:29.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: how goes i? |
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| 17:33.30 | Mirell | Back to the Future done by the Mr. Sinus guys was awesome |
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| 18:01.47 | prpplague | Mirell: ?? |
| 18:05.35 | Mirell | prpplague: Local Austin group, does MST3K-like performances |
| 18:06.41 | prpplague | ahh |
| 18:34.32 | Mirell | Hmm... |
| 18:39.34 | prpplague | Hmm^2..... |
| 19:03.46 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@ppp-70-244-174-225.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 19:11.17 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 19:11.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you still around? |
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| 19:41.31 | prpplague | landley: greetings |
| 19:43.22 | landley | prpplague: morning. |
| 19:43.28 | landley | For a non-monring sense of the word. |
| 19:43.30 | landley | How goes stuff? |
| 19:43.55 | Mirell | landley: Your phone, it no works. |
| 19:45.26 | landley | Mirell: I turned it off for the movie last night, and forgot to turn it back on. |
| 19:45.34 | landley | It's booting now. |
| 19:45.41 | Mirell | Hehe |
| 19:45.57 | landley | Well they don't have a "turn your cell phones back on" at the _end _ of the movie, do they? |
| 19:46.17 | Mirell | I just turn mine to vibrate |
| 19:48.23 | prpplague | landley: its going |
| 19:48.34 | prpplague | landley: trying to do some last minute tests on the nail |
| 19:48.44 | prpplague | landley: as well as some frambuffer hacking on a product for work |
| 19:48.58 | landley | cool. |
| 19:49.07 | landley | Does nail have a framebuffer? |
| 19:49.12 | prpplague | landley: you done much in the fb driver stuff? |
| 19:49.18 | prpplague | landley: yea |
| 19:49.29 | landley | Not much. |
| 19:49.31 | prpplague | landley: you can do small tft's and stn |
| 19:49.50 | prpplague | landley: i'm doing a nasty retro fit on a legacy product |
| 19:50.26 | landley | I'm not familiar with either tft or stn as acronyms... |
| 19:50.56 | prpplague | landley: np, small color lcds, i.e. less than 320x320 |
| 19:53.06 | prpplague | landley: i've got a number of lcd's i want to test with the hammer |
| 19:53.29 | landley | Cool. |
| 19:53.37 | prpplague | landley: but we have an eight digit deal riding on a demo tuesday |
| 19:53.46 | landley | The one the iPhone uses is quite nice. Probably Apple's got 'em tied up in an exclusive contract for another year... |
| 19:53.49 | prpplague | landley: so i _have_ to get this working before then |
| 19:53.51 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: yo |
| 19:53.59 | landley | prpplague: yeah, the demo takes precedence. :) |
| 19:54.16 | prpplague | landley: yea sparkfun carries several really nice ones |
| 19:54.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: got a few minutes for me to pick whats left of your brain? |
| 19:54.57 | CosmicPenguin | sure |
| 19:55.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or is your child process active? |
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| 19:55.24 | CosmicPenguin | its backgrounded right now |
| 19:55.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm going through some of these fb drivers |
| 19:55.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i can't see to find any docs or notes about how the fb data gets translated and written to the address needed by the driver |
| 19:56.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i see some functions like setcolor, but i'm not sure what the structs actually do |
| 19:56.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you familiar with any of that? |
| 19:56.29 | flyback | and people wonder why I am pricing out a cheap generator |
| 19:56.53 | CosmicPenguin | you mean how the framebuffer memory gets mapped to the hardware or how it gets mapped into user space? |
| 19:57.11 | prpplague | flyback: i don't see any elinux.org updates regarding that router.....*cough* |
| 19:57.32 | flyback | might not for a while either |
| 19:57.35 | flyback | :/ |
| 19:57.35 | prpplague | landley: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8335 |
| 19:58.09 | prpplague | landley: and http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8490 |
| 19:58.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 19:58.38 | CosmicPenguin | which one? |
| 19:58.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i.e. the 5 bits for red go into the controler memory _here_ |
| 19:59.22 | CosmicPenguin | well - it sort of depends on how your hardware is set up |
| 19:59.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i.e. if i set 0xff for red to the /dev/fb how does it know where it puts those bits in the controller |
| 20:00.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed, i figured as much, i assume there is struct that defines each of the color area |
| 20:00.29 | CosmicPenguin | Can we assume that your display controller uses a linear framebuffer? |
| 20:00.47 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:01.19 | CosmicPenguin | okay- so then between the user and the kernel and the controller there will be a 1to1 mapping of the memory |
| 20:01.42 | CosmicPenguin | so what you write at byte 0 in /dev/fb will end up at byte 0 in the display controller framebuffer |
| 20:02.08 | CosmicPenguin | what actually ends up getting displayed will depend on how your display controller is set up to interpet that byte |
| 20:02.13 | flyback | goes back to sleep till his head isn't fragmented into 500 pieces |
| 20:02.48 | CosmicPenguin | The user needs to understand how the display controller is setup as wel, thats why the par and var structures return color information |
| 20:03.29 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ok, lets assume its not a one to one |
| 20:04.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: for instance, the fb data is 16bits, but the controllers is configured for 4 |
| 20:04.16 | CosmicPenguin | why would there be a discrepency? |
| 20:04.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh i see youpoint |
| 20:05.28 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: like on the s3c2410, the memory isn't linear for smaller bpp, |
| 20:05.56 | CosmicPenguin | its palette based? |
| 20:06.02 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea |
| 20:06.02 | SpeedEvil | I was assuming one way of doing it would be to set it to 256 color mode, and setup teh pallette right. |
| 20:06.13 | SpeedEvil | It can be palette based or simple RGB |
| 20:06.22 | SpeedEvil | depending on how you set it up |
| 20:06.27 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: yea |
| 20:06.34 | CosmicPenguin | at 4bpp the famebuffer should still be linear |
| 20:06.36 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: there are some other issues with that |
| 20:07.02 | CosmicPenguin | if you are in palette mode then the user needs to understand that as wel |
| 20:07.07 | SpeedEvil | yeah - the user can't set the palette to what they like - and if they expect they can, stuff will break |
| 20:07.19 | SpeedEvil | they need to know 'you have this palette - deal with it' |
| 20:07.40 | CosmicPenguin | but there really is no difference driver wise between palette mode and true color mode |
| 20:07.54 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well the issue i have is that the mapping i need isn't complete linear |
| 20:07.58 | CosmicPenguin | the user either writes a RGB value to the memory or a palette index to the memory, but it should hit the video controller hardware the same way |
| 20:09.05 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i.e. 5bits red got to d[0:4] , 5bit blue got to d[8:12] and 5 green go to d[13:17] |
| 20:13.09 | prpplague | hmm |
| 20:14.21 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: so no real way if intercepting the value |
| 20:14.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i has to be writting in the correct method |
| 20:14.45 | prpplague | this is what i had found in the s3c2410 fb |
| 20:15.04 | prpplague | /* 16 bpp, 5551 format */ |
| 20:15.04 | prpplague | var->red.offset= 11; |
| 20:15.04 | prpplague | var->green.offset= 6; |
| 20:15.04 | prpplague | var->blue.offset= 1; |
| 20:15.04 | prpplague | var->red.length= 5; |
| 20:15.05 | prpplague | var->green.length= 5; |
| 20:15.07 | prpplague | var->blue.length= 5; |
| 20:15.09 | prpplague | var->transp.length= 0; |
| 20:15.17 | prpplague | couldn't you tweak those? |
| 20:16.34 | prpplague | i guess the palete lookup is the best way to intercept it then |
| 20:23.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: thanks for the info |
| 20:32.42 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
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| 23:43.21 | Mirell | 'lo RobotGuy |
| 23:43.47 | RobotGuy | 'Hi, Mirell |
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| 23:53.45 | RobotGuy | I just have to solve this last length error problem and I will have a 100% working Hammer setup. |
| 23:54.08 | RobotGuy | How are things with you, Mirell? |
| 23:57.54 | Mirell | RobotGuy: Pretty good, aside from social drama. |
| 23:58.52 | RobotGuy | I don't do social stuff if I can avoid it. It isn't usually possible to do that though. |
| 23:59.24 | Mirell | <sexisim> When dating girls, it's unavoidable. </sexism> |