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| 14:41.36 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
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| 14:52.24 | prpplague | ugh ugh ugh |
| 14:52.45 | prpplague | i can't believe that they are allowing perl requirments in the kernel now |
| 14:53.13 | prpplague | guess we'll have to patch every kernel from now on |
| 14:53.15 | prpplague | :( |
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| 15:11.59 | icewaterman | prpplague: what has perl to do with the kernel? |
| 15:12.32 | prpplague | icewaterman: a new set of patches accepted for the 2.6.25 kernel will require perl |
| 15:12.38 | prpplague | icewaterman: and eventually python as well |
| 15:14.00 | prpplague | icewaterman: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=kernel/timeconst.pl;h=41468035473ccbb943495466159173058862d6f0;hb=1309d4e68497184d2fd87e892ddf14076c2bda98 |
| 15:16.42 | icewaterman | why the hell perl? |
| 15:17.01 | prpplague | same question alot of us are asking |
| 15:17.06 | prpplague | but no one is answering |
| 15:17.17 | icewaterman | that is almost as if microsoft would include visual basic in their kernel... |
| 15:17.59 | icewaterman | maybe this is just a preliminary april-fools joke |
| 15:18.24 | adyer | this timeconst thing is just a compile time tool, right? |
| 15:18.25 | icewaterman | or linus was drunk |
| 15:18.52 | icewaterman | adyer: yes, probably. but anyway. |
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| 15:20.09 | prpplague | adyer: yea |
| 15:20.31 | prpplague | adyer: used to calculate the HZ lookup tables |
| 15:20.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: greetings |
| 15:20.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: was just wondering how it was going with the new child process |
| 15:21.26 | CosmicPenguin | going well |
| 15:21.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh good |
| 15:22.08 | adyer | prpplague: doesn't seem like a huge deal to me <shrug> |
| 15:22.29 | prpplague | adyer: yea, well, if you don't have perl installed, its a big deal |
| 15:23.25 | prpplague | adyer: means that for those doing cross compiles inside a build system, we'll have to build perl as well |
| 15:25.01 | icewaterman | isnt perl cross-platform? |
| 15:25.14 | icewaterman | i mean it is a script language after all |
| 15:25.30 | agaffney | yes, but cross-compiling it is a royal pita |
| 15:25.30 | icewaterman | so those doing cross-compiling should have no problem. |
| 15:25.40 | agaffney | not that that matters for *using* it to cross-compile |
| 15:26.12 | icewaterman | you wouldnt need it for cross compiling |
| 15:26.22 | icewaterman | you can use native perl i suppose |
| 15:26.31 | adyer | lol maybe they could cross-compile 'bc' instead and feed it with shell scripts :-) |
| 15:27.52 | icewaterman | is there a rule of thumb how much bigger x86_64 binaries are over i386 binaries? |
| 15:27.58 | prpplague | most buildsystems cross-compile all of the build tools as well |
| 15:28.21 | prpplague | making them non-dependent on what tools are installed on the host |
| 15:29.03 | agaffney | you wouldn't cross-compile the tools for the build system |
| 15:29.14 | agaffney | you might build native versions that target a differen arch |
| 15:29.37 | agaffney | a cross-compiled tool wouldn't run on the host you're doign the build on :P |
| 15:29.55 | prpplague | agaffney: yes it does if you are cross-compiling for the same arch |
| 15:30.16 | agaffney | then that's not cross-compiling, is it? :P |
| 15:30.27 | prpplague | agaffney: it is still considered cross-compiling |
| 15:30.37 | agaffney | eh |
| 15:30.41 | agaffney | semantics :P |
| 15:31.30 | prpplague | iirc CosmicPenguin cross compiles all of the AMD builds |
| 15:31.41 | CosmicPenguin | Geode builds |
| 15:32.08 | CosmicPenguin | I don't cross compile the x86_64 builds, but heaven knows I should |
| 15:32.12 | CosmicPenguin | I'm a lazy, lazy man |
| 15:34.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: your thoughts on perl now being required for kernel build? |
| 15:38.34 | CosmicPenguin | I only see it being used for optional checking |
| 15:38.55 | CosmicPenguin | And for a scsi target |
| 15:39.44 | prpplague | icewaterman: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=kernel/timeconst.pl;h=41468035473ccbb943495466159173058862d6f0;hb=1309d4e68497184d2fd87e892ddf14076c2bda98 |
| 15:40.11 | prpplague | also being used to calculate hz timeconstants |
| 15:41.10 | CosmicPenguin | oh, geeze - thats brand new |
| 15:41.41 | prpplague | yea, and portions of kbuild redone with perl on the way |
| 15:41.51 | prpplague | along with python requirements |
| 15:46.42 | prpplague | T0mW: hey, thanks for the schematic |
| 15:46.55 | prpplague | ~seen jbevren |
| 15:46.57 | purl | jbevren <n=jbevren@dumt-04-044.dsl.netins.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #edev, 28d 10h 59m 39s ago, saying: 'and on that I"m going to bed :)'. |
| 15:46.57 | T0mW | np, hope it helped |
| 15:47.21 | prpplague | T0mW: yea, gonna put it up on the wiki as soon as wmat gets it moved |
| 15:50.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i assume your conference attendence will be lessened due to parental duties |
| 15:50.13 | icewaterman | prpplague: that gy is probably dead |
| 15:50.28 | prpplague | icewaterman: ? |
| 15:50.38 | CosmicPenguin | not any more then it is lessened by my company's continued inablity to sell processors |
| 15:50.41 | icewaterman | prpplague: that guy that was last seen >4 weeks ago |
| 15:51.00 | icewaterman | CosmicPenguin: working for amd? |
| 15:51.04 | prpplague | icewaterman: ahh, i suspect he's probably taken a contract job and just been busy |
| 15:51.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 15:51.30 | CosmicPenguin | I don't know if I'll be in Ottawa this year |
| 15:51.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, i won;t be either |
| 15:52.00 | CosmicPenguin | the pleading emails that they were sending out over the last few weeks for papers made it sound like they wern't getting much |
| 15:52.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, one of the big attraction was that alot of the kernel guru's were there with the kernel summit |
| 15:53.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: once that left, there just isn't that big of an attraction |
| 15:53.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: specially cost wise |
| 15:53.42 | CosmicPenguin | I disagree about the kernel summit thing - and we've disagreed about that before |
| 15:53.54 | CosmicPenguin | lets face it - none of the kernel summit guys went to ols anyway |
| 15:54.11 | CosmicPenguin | except for people like Alan Cox and Greg KH and Dave Jones, and they go to OLS anyway |
| 15:54.25 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and rmk and nico |
| 15:54.28 | CosmicPenguin | meh |
| 15:54.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: arm folks |
| 15:54.35 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:54.38 | CosmicPenguin | they don't talk much arm at OLS anyway |
| 15:54.56 | icewaterman | now that i have replaced bash in my initramfs with ash i know how slow bash is... |
| 15:55.12 | CosmicPenguin | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:55.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i can't speak for recent years, but in the past OLS was pretty heavy with arm dev |
| 15:55.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, landley mentioned linux plumbers conference |
| 15:57.13 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, landley want me to go to penguincon |
| 15:57.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: but i'd have a real problem getting that approved, hehe |
| 15:57.37 | CosmicPenguin | You _should_ be going to CELF |
| 15:58.56 | CosmicPenguin | I would go, but we have the coreboot meetings here in Denver in early april, and I already committed to a LUG talk on the 17th |
| 15:59.24 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, i've considered CELF a few times, but its sooooooo expensive |
| 16:01.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: maybe next year |
| 16:01.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i can't really afford to attend since AML doesn't help |
| 16:01.54 | CosmicPenguin | thats too bad - CELF will directly relate to sales for you |
| 16:02.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, never been able to convince management of that |
| 16:02.44 | CosmicPenguin | oh, well |
| 16:02.47 | CosmicPenguin | their loss |
| 16:02.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: only the sales department gets to go to conferences/tradeshows on company budget |
| 16:03.21 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, its the one and only complaint i have about working for AML |
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| 16:07.09 | chouimat | morning |
| 16:08.02 | prpplague | chouimat: greetings |
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| 16:11.42 | chouimat | prpplague: hi |
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| 17:09.09 | adyer | does anybody remember the magic to make gdb print some progress indication when doing a 'load' command? |
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| 21:07.03 | cbrake | I'm trying to get redboot to play nicely with an initramfs loaded using the initrd mechanism. It turns out the BL must tell the kernel the exact size of the initramfs or it kernel does not like it. |
| 21:07.45 | cbrake | but I want to be able to updated the initramfs from the kernel (using mtd) without modifing the bootloader boot scripts. Anyone know of a good way to work around this? |
| 21:18.07 | prpplague | cbrake: depends on the sizes |
| 21:18.28 | prpplague | cbrake: generally you can get away with giving it a bigger value, you just waste ram |
| 21:18.44 | cbrake | prpplague: that is not working with an initramfs |
| 21:18.57 | cbrake | prpplague: it parses it, and then concludes it is an initrd |
| 21:19.29 | prpplague | cbrake: ok, maybe i misunderstood what you are having an issue with |
| 21:20.05 | cbrake | prpplague: when I try to load an initramfs using the initrd mechanism -- pass in address and size, the size needs to be exact, or the kernel has a cow |
| 21:20.20 | cbrake | prpplague: ahh, so you just use initrd |
| 21:20.22 | prpplague | cbrake: interesting |
| 21:20.48 | prpplague | cbrake: yea, i much prefer initrd, much easier to do things like what you are describing |
| 21:21.25 | cbrake | prpplague: I really like having my initramfs on a tmpfs so I don't have to worry about size -- can load huge update images into ramfs, etc. |
| 21:21.36 | adyer | cbrake: could you just stuff the size somewhere like the end of some sector when writing and have the boot code fetch it? |
| 21:21.41 | prpplague | cbrake: initramfs, imho, is great if you know exactly what you want every time |
| 21:22.09 | prpplague | adyer: yea, thats similar to what u-boot does |
| 21:22.22 | cbrake | adyer: yeah, it looks like that is what I'm going to do -- probably just prepend the image with it, and tweak the kernel atag parsing to use it |
| 21:22.31 | prpplague | cbrake: basically just prepend the size onto the initramfs image |
| 21:22.37 | cbrake | prpplague: nod |
| 21:23.09 | prpplague | cbrake: hey, you guys been hit up with WIAV yet? |
| 21:23.21 | cbrake | prpplague: that is what they do on the cm-x270. This is another SBC, so I don't the redboot source :-\, but kernel hacking will do. |
| 21:23.38 | prpplague | cbrake: ahh |
| 21:23.47 | cbrake | cbrake: no idea about WIAV |
| 21:23.53 | prpplague | ~WIAV |
| 21:23.54 | purl | methinks wiav is a patent troll with information at http://trolltracker.blogspot.com/2008/01/4-interesting-new-cases-from-last-2.html and http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/205753-texas-company-seeks-judgement-to-stop-potential-patent-suit |
| 21:24.13 | cbrake | ahh |
| 21:24.23 | prpplague | cbrake: they are actively trolling linux companies that use 802.11 roaming |
| 21:24.36 | cbrake | prpplague: have not heard from them yet |
| 21:24.44 | cbrake | prpplague: did you get your case settled yet? |
| 21:25.05 | prpplague | cbrake: insurance company is pushing us to settle and buy a license from them |
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| 21:25.15 | cbrake | prpplague: that is hard to swallow no doubt |
| 21:25.38 | prpplague | cbrake: yea, well, business wise it makes sense, but its a real shame for linux and OSS |
| 21:25.47 | prpplague | cbrake: because that's who they are after right now |
| 21:26.08 | prpplague | cbrake: worst part is i can't get anyone in the OSS community interested in it |
| 21:26.24 | cbrake | prpplague: not enough pain yet |
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| 21:28.17 | prpplague | cbrake: i guess |
| 21:48.38 | duderonomy | what linux company is being threatened with this? |
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| 22:34.24 | prpplague | duderonomy: AML my employer for one |
| 22:34.38 | sunrunner20 | ... |
| 22:34.45 | sunrunner20 | ya'll use wifi right? |
| 22:34.45 | prpplague | duderonomy: i know from court discovery there are about 20, but i can not say who |
| 22:34.54 | prpplague | sunrunner20: yep, standard 802.11b/g |
| 22:35.29 | sunrunner20 | isn't it impossible to put a patent on part of an IEEE standard? |
| 22:35.42 | prpplague | sunrunner20: nope |
| 22:36.50 | prpplague | sunrunner20: the main problem here, is that most people agree that the patent doesn't apply to 802.11b/g |
| 22:37.55 | prpplague | sunrunner20: IEEE specs do not preclude have patents |
| 22:37.55 | sunrunner20 | LOL |
| 22:37.57 | sunrunner20 | afaik wifi uses one node until it runs out of signal, then looks for a new one |
| 22:37.59 | prpplague | sunrunner20: most companies either sign a Letter of Assurance(LoA) saying they will never enforce the patent |
| 22:38.13 | prpplague | sunrunner20: or they get a fixed amount for the license without restriction |
| 22:38.25 | prpplague | sunrunner20: that is correct |
| 22:38.36 | sunrunner20 | then 6,480,497 does not even apply |
| 22:38.37 | sunrunner20 | >_> |
| 22:39.07 | prpplague | sunrunner20: hehe, indeed thats how most people see it |
| 22:40.01 | sunrunner20 | i could see how the other patent _could_ apply |
| 22:40.05 | sunrunner20 | but 6,480,497... no way |
| 22:40.20 | prpplague | indeed |
| 22:40.48 | CosmicPenguin | FUD pays well |
| 22:41.01 | prpplague | sunrunner20: the problem is really not whether they apply, any reasonable person familiar with 802.11 can argue that point |
| 22:41.23 | prpplague | sunrunner20: the problem is that financially, companies like AML don't have the time or the money to deal with this |
| 22:42.25 | prpplague | sunrunner20: unless something dramatic happens, i.e. slashdot/groklaw coverage, i suspect that the insurance company is going to force us to settle and purchase a license |
| 22:42.38 | prpplague | sunrunner20: ?? |
| 22:42.45 | sunrunner20 | make WIAV go away :) |
| 22:42.59 | prpplague | sunrunner20: ? |
| 22:43.18 | sunrunner20 | thats all i'll say |
| 22:43.25 | prpplague | uh |
| 22:44.19 | prpplague | duderonomy: i know from word of mouth that several other linux vendors are being approached |
| 22:44.34 | prpplague | duderonomy: but so far AML is the only one fighting it |
| 22:44.52 | Crofton | ~wiav |
| 22:44.52 | purl | i guess wiav is a patent troll with information at http://trolltracker.blogspot.com/2008/01/4-interesting-new-cases-from-last-2.html and http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/205753-texas-company-seeks-judgement-to-stop-potential-patent-suit |
| 22:45.50 | prpplague | wiav's assertion is that ALL 802.11 implementations violate their two patents |
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| 22:48.43 | sunrunner20 | and yet they are not going after people like... cisco |
| 22:48.57 | sunrunner20 | maby because they know they'll lose |
| 22:49.50 | prpplague | sunrunner20: yea |
| 22:50.00 | prpplague | sunrunner20: they also have to build up their war chest |
| 22:50.05 | sunrunner20 | hmmm |
| 22:50.13 | sunrunner20 | i wonder |
| 22:50.28 | sunrunner20 | send a forged suit letter from WAIV to cisco |
| 22:50.35 | sunrunner20 | that should be interesting |
| 22:50.45 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, jailtime is fun |
| 22:51.01 | sunrunner20 | only if caught |
| 22:51.13 | sunrunner20 | more likely inter3esting for WAIV |
| 22:51.42 | sunrunner20 | anyway |
| 22:51.44 | sunrunner20 | homework |
| 22:52.54 | prpplague | sunrunner20: thats silly |
| 22:53.13 | sunrunner20 | not if you work it right |
| 22:53.39 | prpplague | sunrunner20: you are thinking like an individual with nothing to loose |
| 22:53.43 | prpplague | sunrunner20: this is a business |
| 22:54.01 | sunrunner20 | i'm not talking like AML would do it |
| 22:54.17 | sunrunner20 | business wise yea its stupid |
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| 22:57.48 | flyback | http://www.wikileak.org/ |
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