IRC log for #edev on 20080307

00:16.08*** join/#edev ico2__ (n=ico2@modem-3954.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk)
00:36.02*** join/#edev wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org)
00:45.15Dr{Afk}looks like the board landly sent me had the second MTD device zero'd.. so no file system. need to make one but busybox was not build with mkfs. Is that the norm for this board as it is shipped or is this just a situation of this board being played with a bit.
00:46.01CosmicPenguinbusybox wouldn't have mk.jffs2 anyway - just build a new one with buildroot
00:48.58Dr{Afk}yeppers. looks like ill have to dive into my own build already yay..
00:49.35Dr{Afk}ill have to get the iso from prpplague one peice i dont have yet
00:49.41Dr{Afk}so i can get the build configs
00:50.06Dr{Afk}im sure more stuff is on there i will need too.
02:06.19*** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp043.110-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca)
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02:37.08ds2wow large value tantalums are $$$
02:43.10MonMothads2: yes, they can be
02:43.30MonMothabut they're often your only option other than an aluminum type, and they tend to be much more reliable
02:50.46ds2i'm looking for an auto power supply input filter so aluminum should be fine at about 10% the cost
03:01.31*** join/#edev steliosk (n=Stelios@79.131.80.108)
03:09.36SpeedEvilds2: if you're not draawing much current, a resistor in front to drop a volt or two can do wonders for your noise immunity.
03:20.32ds2SpeedEvil: it this is the spike filter in front of a 7805
03:21.51MonMothads2: yeah, not much ripple current there
03:22.02MonMothathat seems to be the downfall of aluminum types
03:28.54SpeedEvilYou know you have to deal with +-80V spikes under various fault conditions?
03:30.26SpeedEvilMy favourite solution is something like a 1R 1W resistor, a 1A fuse, a 1W 20V(ish) zener.
03:30.58SpeedEvilAnd a few thousand uF cap
03:31.30SpeedEvil(rated 25V)
03:31.42MonMothaSpeedEvil: that tends to work reasonably well
03:32.03SpeedEvilThe hope is that the fuse blows on reverse supply, and 24V supply
03:33.10SpeedEvila 1A quick-blow fuse that is.
03:33.17SpeedEvilThere are better more complex solutions.
03:38.27MonMothayes
03:38.44MonMothaI worked with a FAE at a semiconductor company who sold to automotive applications
03:38.58MonMothasaw several solutions for this particular problem
03:41.10SpeedEvilFuel Air Explosive?
03:41.59MonMothaField Applications Engineer
03:42.10SpeedEvilah
03:54.40*** join/#edev wiml (n=wiml@underhill.hhhh.org)
04:33.40*** join/#edev DrZimmerman (n=theo@tbaumgartner.broker.freenet6.net)
05:04.21ds2hmmmm
05:04.50ds2didn't someone here recommended a few thousand uF cap + a 1ohm resistor in front of the 7805 as sufficient protection?
05:07.20MonMotha7805s are pretty tough, so it wouldn't surprise me if that would be pretty decent
05:07.28MonMothaadding a zener as a clamp can help
05:08.09ds2that'd be a huge zener
05:08.56MonMothadepends on how long you expect the transient to last
05:09.23ds2my problem is I don't have a good model for over voltage in an auto
05:09.32MonMothagoogle "load dump"
05:09.43ds2isn't that a motor thing?
05:09.56MonMothait's a result of a quick change in load but the alternator can't react quickly enough
05:10.18MonMothathat's specified by most auto makers as <40V for "several seconds"
05:10.36MonMothain reality I'm told it usually goes away in <1sec, but it's still pretty long for an electrical transient
05:11.04ds2that's what causes it? hmmm thought it was stuff from the plugs
05:11.26MonMothathat's always the major overvoltage cause we had to worry about
05:11.28ds2if it is <40V, the 7805 is suppose to be able to tolerate it indefinitely
05:11.32MonMothaother than ESD, which is a totally different beast
05:11.45MonMothayeah, most automotive qualified regulators are simply spec'd up to 40V
05:12.10MonMothastill wise to put a clamp in if you've got the room and the budget
05:12.13MonMothaset it for about 60V
05:12.27ds2it is a car computer type project so room is available
05:12.41MonMothahow much current you drawing off this 7805?
05:12.51ds2it is not the voltage, it is the dissipiation of the zener that I am worried about
05:13.10ds2up to 1A (it is a charger to feed a Li battery)
05:13.11MonMothayeah, but the zener usually won't run to steady state
05:13.19MonMotha1A and you're using a 7805?!?
05:13.30MonMothayou realize that regulator will be dissipating several WATTS, right?
05:13.32ds2up to as in 1A peak
05:13.45ds2I don't expect the average draw to exceed 500mA
05:13.48MonMothalike 7-8
05:13.56MonMothastill, that's 3-4W in normal operation
05:13.57ds2and yes, I do realize it'll get hot
05:14.00MonMothathat's hard to heatsink
05:14.07MonMothaconsidered a switch-mode solution?
05:14.30MonMothayou're burning more power as heat than you're delivering to the load
05:14.41ds2not sure where to find a robust enough switcher that'll tolerate as much crap as a 7805
05:14.54MonMothathere are automotive qualified switchers
05:15.04ds2*nod* hence it is an automotive, engine when on application
05:15.33ds2in single chip form? let me take a peak at maxim and linear
05:15.41MonMothaNCV3163 is the automotive qualified version of the venerable MC3163
05:15.43MonMothait's from ON
05:15.49MonMothaLT may have some good stuff
05:15.51MonMothayeah
05:15.55MonMothaalso check out fairchild and ST
05:16.08ds2I don't even want to look at ON or freescale. they are hellish to sample from
05:16.12MonMothathe 3163 is single chip (just add some passives to set parameters and the big'ol inductor)
05:16.16MonMothaON?  ON is easy
05:16.20MonMothadoes cost money now, sadly
05:16.42MonMothaif you need the automotive qualified versions, I may be able to get you some since you can't normally sample those
05:16.49ds2ON and freescale are the only ones that insisted I call them and talk to someone before they will sample
05:16.54MonMothawhat?
05:17.02MonMothaON's website is pretty much just a frontend for Digi-Key at this point
05:17.13MonMothathough they will direct sample some stuff digi-key doesn't stock
05:17.19ds2i filled in the form on line and they sent me a email saying please call us at XXX-XXX-XXXX
05:17.33MonMothawere you trying to sample something really weird or something like that?
05:17.56MonMothalast I checked (a couple months ago) you pretty much just add stuff to your "cart" and pay the handling+shipping fee
05:18.02ds2no, just an low range (1-2G) accelerator... got them from ADI before w/o problem but ADI didn't have what I wanted
05:18.09MonMothabasically $15 for all the samples you want in the order
05:18.25ds2I pretty much have to verbally sware to them that it will never leave the country and that I am a us citizen
05:18.27MonMothathey used to cover that, but it apparently got to expensive for them.  Used to be awesome as it was all free
05:18.40MonMothaoh, they may be regulated parts
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05:18.59ds2for a 2G 3axis accelerometer?! ADI doesn't do that for a 50G 2 axis one!
05:19.02MonMothathere's some stupid "not exportable" crap since you could theoretically use the part in e.g. a missle guidance system
05:19.15MonMothaalso, that would be freescale, not ON
05:19.20ds2the previous experience was trying to get a 68HC16 when they were motorola
05:19.27MonMothaON and Freescale, while both descendents of Motorola, are not the same company
05:19.47ds2can't do it on the phone or on line; had to request academic sample program papers; fill out forms, sign, and send in
05:20.17MonMothauh, yeah
05:20.25MonMotha$11 lets me have up to 25 NCV3163s
05:20.27MonMothano questions asked
05:20.42MonMothanow, I already have an account with them, but I don't think they've changed the sign-up procedure
05:20.51ds2Okay, I'll take a look at ON
05:20.55MonMothaFreescale I know can be a bitch
05:20.57MonMothabut they are not ON
05:21.14ds2$11 is cheaper then Linear Tech's sampling... $20 flat rate shipping
05:21.41MonMothaON basically charges what digi-key charges them
05:21.59MonMothaminimal dimensional weight shipping + the $5 handling fee since it's a <$25 ($0) order
05:22.15MonMothathough the NCV prefix is a MLT sample, so it'll come direct, not from Digi-Key
05:22.33MonMothaIIRC, the Digi-Key stuff is shipped overnight, so you do get something for your money
05:22.34ds2wonder if they'll let me combine it with a legit Digikey order then
05:22.39MonMothathey will not
05:22.44ds2oh
05:22.57MonMothathe NCV prefixed stuff wouldn't come from there anyway
05:23.05MonMotha(NCV is ON's automotive prefix)
05:23.11MonMothaand can you tell the place I worked at was ON? :
05:23.12MonMotha:)
05:23.17ds2heh
05:23.21MonMotha(full disclosure, though I no longer work for them)
05:23.21ds2what package is it?
05:23.27MonMothait's a exposed pad SOIC
05:23.38MonMothathough at 1A you may not need to mess with soldering down the EPad
05:23.46MonMothathe part is rated to 3.4A
05:24.05MonMothaI'd recommend it if you can
05:24.06ds2the problem I could see is finding the inductor...that's theother reason I don't like doing switchers
05:24.18MonMothaDR127 series from Coiltronics works well
05:24.26MonMothaor wind your own
05:24.39MonMothait's pretty easy to make your own inductor
05:24.53MonMothathe value isn't overly critical for the 3163 anyway
05:25.34MonMothaonly real complaint I have about hte 3163 is that the control is such that it will whine in some cases
05:25.35ds2air core?
05:26.08MonMothaI've wound inductors on all sorts of stuff.  Screwdrivers (both leaving it on and removing the screwdriver), plastic tubes, old connectors
05:26.19MonMothaair core tends to be the easiest to make your own from, though
05:26.26MonMothaeither that or a well documented magnetic material
05:26.46MonMothafor 500mA-1A, the DR127 series should do nicely
05:26.48ds2I see. didn't know that was acceptable for a switcher as that has limited inductance and high resistance
05:27.05MonMothadepends on what value you end up needing for the inductance
05:27.14MonMothathere's a design spreadsheet for most parts
05:27.21ds2oh nice
05:27.23MonMothaI know the 3163 one well (I've done several designs with it)
05:27.36MonMothaIIRC, that one even works in OO.org
05:27.42ds2<--- did not do well in the magnetics class; scared by all the stuff about saturation
05:27.43MonMothathe last part I used wouldn't
05:28.14MonMothawell, if you use a commercial part, they'll give a saturation current - just stay below that
05:28.49MonMothamore important than the inductor seems to be the output cap
05:28.56ds2it doesn't help when the inductors you have on hand have no spec other then the inductance
05:29.03MonMothatrue
05:29.14MonMothaI'd recommend going through the design and just buying parts
05:29.25MonMothalike I said, I like the DR127 series for this application
05:29.41MonMothadecent size, shielded so EMI isn't usually an issue, and they are well documented
05:29.53ds2well, that's another $$$$ for a digikey inductor but I got other stuff I need
05:29.54MonMothathey are surface mount, but they are readily solderable by hand even by a novice
05:30.05MonMothayou can get those inductors at mouser
05:30.15ds2these are the little square "buttons" right?
05:30.19MonMothasave you the handling fee, possibly sales tax, and th epart is cheaper, too
05:30.32MonMothayeah, they look like a square with a round "button"
05:30.47MonMothathere are CHEAPER parts if cost is a major concern on this
05:30.55MonMothabut those seem very robust in my experience
05:31.43MonMothaI just did a design recently for an off-line supply
05:31.45MonMothathat was fun...
05:32.11ds2nah, just doing a hobby project for now
05:32.25ds2it does seem like a nice part
05:32.31MonMothait's really easy to work with
05:32.40ds2is there a min. output current?
05:32.40MonMothait's a good "starter" part for SMPS work
05:32.51MonMothamy experience is that it will regulate all the way to no load
05:32.55ds2a charge pump is a good starter for SMPS :)
05:33.03MonMothaoutput ripple gets a little iffy, but it regulates
05:33.10MonMothait'll go DCM if it has to
05:33.22MonMothatrue, I'm talking the magnetic based topologies like buck
05:33.29MonMothamy last design was a flyback
05:34.00MonMothait's fun when you're playing around with 600V, 16A MOSFETs
05:34.20ds2the switcher topologies is another weak area of mine... it was part of the same magnetics class taught by an instructor that didn't wanted to teach it and the students didn't care for it (required class)
05:34.25ds2heh 600V heh
05:35.02MonMothawell, when you plug the device straight in to the wall (that's a scary moment, let me tell you)...
05:35.16ds2no variac??
05:35.21MonMothaI had one
05:35.27MonMothabut eventually you gotta just plug it in
05:35.40ds2haha
05:35.53MonMothait
05:35.57MonMothait's a neat little supply, though
05:36.03MonMotharuns off just about anything you throw at it
05:36.19ds2this is a UPS Or inverter?
05:36.30MonMothait's basically a fancy wall wart
05:36.38MonMothait's integrated into a larger device
05:36.47ds216A is more then a wall wart!
05:36.57MonMothathe FET is rated for 16A, but it only ever sees about 1A
05:37.04ds2ah
05:37.13MonMothaand that's the peak right when it turns off and "flies back"
05:37.28ds2why the 16x margin?
05:37.30MonMothaI just ended up at a 16A FET to get some other specs I needed (Rds(on) and Qg)
05:37.38ds2oh
05:38.23MonMothawe would have used an off-the-shelf part, but we needed some oddball functionality
05:39.01MonMothaoh, and a strange formfactor
05:39.20ds2was there any reason why you didn't think much of maxim switcher for a one off project?
05:39.36MonMothaI guess because I'm used to having to spec parts I can actually source :)
05:40.02MonMothaevery project always seems to have issues sourcing things in the end, so you avoid headaches wherever possible
05:40.15MonMothaI also know the 3163 well, and it's battle tested
05:40.17MonMothathat part is old
05:40.25MonMothaand I knew it was available in automotive
05:40.26ds2ah maxim has left that bad of a taste in your mouth
05:40.37MonMothanot really, but I've heard enough stories
05:40.41MonMothathey also tend to be expensive
05:41.20MonMothaI've found that for whatever reason, I don't like most of their datasheets, either
05:41.25MonMothatheir app notes, on the other hand, are very handy
05:41.48MonMothaI'll use a Maxim/Dallas part if it's what gets the job done
05:41.51ds2guess I kind of grew up around their parts and gotten used to their style of datasheets
05:42.09MonMothayeah, I played with them for a while then moved on to people like TI
05:42.34ds2hard to move on when the main work you get is on the software side
05:42.37MonMothathough actually TI was one of th emajor sourcing issues on this project.  We finally had to just delete the part and do it a different way
05:42.44MonMothaheh, yeah
05:42.49MonMothaI'm the "hardware engineer" at my company
05:42.54MonMothaeverybody else's primary job is sofware
05:42.57MonMotha*software
05:43.13ds2i would like a more hardware centric role for at least once
05:43.40MonMothabtw, check out the applications for the NCV3163
05:43.52ds2nice part... only thing I could wish for is if it did 2 output voltages
05:43.54MonMothaAutomotive DC-DC, Battery Charger
05:44.01MonMothaah, but here's where the fun begins
05:44.09MonMothahow much regulation/output power do you need on the second rail?
05:44.13ds2I actually need 5V and 5.5V both at about 1A
05:44.17MonMothaoh...
05:44.29MonMothaum...set the output to 5.5V and tag an LDO off of it to 5
05:44.37ds25V is for the USB side 5.5V is to keep a Nokia design device happy
05:44.48ds2hmmm that's an idea
05:44.53MonMothaisn't 5.5V within spec for USB VBUS?
05:45.05ds25.5V is the upper limit
05:45.14MonMothaheck, use a PTC fuse for the current limit on each port, and that'll drop it just a hair to make sure you're in the range
05:45.28ds2i like the LDO idea
05:45.32MonMothathat works, too
05:45.38MonMothaplenty of LDOs out there
05:45.43MonMothafrom any number of makers
05:46.02MonMothaTI, ON, Fairchild, ST, Maxim
05:46.21ds2are there any truths to stability nightmares with LDOs? I've used 2 from NSC and they seems as tolerant as a 7805
05:46.51MonMothathey can be pretty bad
05:46.56MonMothabut many of th emodern ones are pretty good
05:47.00MonMothamake sure you check the datasheet
05:47.05MonMothathey all have a stability section
05:47.12MonMothaand none of them are as good as a good ol' 7805
05:47.22MonMothabut I've NEVER had an LDO oscillate on me
05:47.35ds2I've violated them on the NSC parts w/o problem
05:47.41MonMothayeah, I've done it, too
05:47.44MonMothathough only on protos
05:47.46ds2unless the OSC is beyond what a 100MHz scope can see
05:47.55MonMothait usually wouldn't be
05:48.10MonMothait has to be within the bandwidth of the control loop, which usually would have no reason to exceed 100Mhz
05:48.18ds2.... now 741 opamps... that's a different story
05:48.25MonMothayeah...
05:48.38MonMothaI have some uber high bandwidth op-amps from TI (well, branded Burr-Brown)
05:48.46MonMothayou have to be VERY careful
05:48.58MonMothathey're good to like 1GHz, so if you put them on a breadboard, they tend to oscillate
05:49.08MonMothathere's like 10-20pF between the tracks on your average breadboard
05:49.15MonMothait can go higher
05:49.21MonMothaI've heard measurements approaching 200pF
05:49.22ds2i try to avoid op-amp and other linears to avoid issues :/
05:49.33MonMothawell, sometimes analog stuff is the way it has to be done
05:49.48MonMothaone of the designs in this last product batch was basically mixed signal hell
05:49.53MonMothaindustrial control type stuff
05:49.55ds2that's where I try to get my friend who works with microwave stuff to do it ;)
05:50.09MonMothaheh, yeh
05:50.50MonMothaI'm kinda a RF guy, so I tend to not make atrocious mistakes
05:50.50MonMothahowever, I'll sometimes commit things that work at RF, but not dozens of kHz
05:51.06MonMothaI pretty much run the gambit of electronic hardware stuff
05:51.27MonMothakinda required when you're "the hardware guy"
05:51.42ds2heh
05:52.32ds2any reason why I can't derive the 5V line from the 5.5V line via a series 1N4001?
05:52.47MonMothagiven what you're using it for, not really
05:52.59MonMothathe drop will vary with current, but thats OK in this case
05:53.14MonMothaUSB is pretty lax on VBUS tolerance
05:53.34ds2so I drop some LEDs in there to keep it out of the knee region of the 1N4001
05:53.51MonMothathat works
05:54.01MonMothayeah, just find something you can run it off of that'll give it some sort of minimal load
05:54.23MonMothait'll still vary some since most of your load spec will be for USB, but as long as you keep it mostly above the knee, that's fine
05:55.22ds2even for powering a raw TTL, that should be sufficient, shouldn't it?
05:55.46ds2probally going to throw in a elmscan chip for an OBD II interface and I think that wants raw 5V
05:56.24ds2it does look like I need 1% resistor on the voltage programing resistors
05:56.53MonMothafor the 3163?
05:57.04MonMothayou can use whatever will get you your required tolerance
05:57.20ds2yeah 3163
05:58.39ds2right a 5.5V +/- 10% => worse case of 6.05V + about 300mV ripple so 6.35V max out. after a 1N4001, that's out of spec for USB
05:58.39MonMothaThere's practically no difference in price on 1% vs. 5% these days, so go with that
05:59.03MonMothanow 0.5% and 0.1%, you pay for those
05:59.09MonMothaand if you want 0.01%...whoo nelly...
05:59.27MonMothaI've used 0.1% zero tempco resistors before...fun little parts, and expensive!
05:59.41ds2for 0.01% wonder if i am better off buying a 100 5%'s and just cherry pick them
06:00.25MonMothaperhaps
06:00.42MonMothayou can buy resistor packs meant for trimming like this
06:00.50MonMothathey're like 1% with decade values going down
06:00.57MonMothaso you clip what you don't want to trim it
06:01.18MonMothabbiab
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06:10.00SpeedEvil5% will not be +-2.5%
06:10.35SpeedEvilbut +0.8% +-0.1%
06:10.40RobotGuyThere is life here
06:10.44SpeedEvil(forex) in a reel
06:10.49RobotGuyOr at least there is SpeedEvil here.. :)
06:15.54MonMothathat is true
06:16.02MonMothaif you want to cherry pick, you'l lhave to order from several lots
06:16.11MonMothaeasiest way is to get like 5 from several different manufactureres
06:16.17MonMothamanufacturers
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06:38.25RobotGuyAhhh, more life! :D
06:39.59RobotGuyI had to reinstall Kubuntu today.
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07:13.50kazaLitecan i ask buildroot related question over here?
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10:52.20SpeedEvilYou can ask any vaguely on-topic question
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19:33.44ds21;2c
19:33.45ds21;2c
19:34.01ds21;2c
19:34.12ds2arrgggg
19:34.15ds2sorry about that
19:42.43wiml:wq
19:42.48wiml^X^C
19:43.06wiml:)
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22:09.47ds2wheeee semi-open OMAP
22:10.49Croftonds2, ?
22:10.59ds2http://beagleboard.org/
22:11.14ds2OMAP3430 based
22:12.08Croftonawesome
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22:58.25*** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
22:59.34Dr{Afk}robot.. do you have a copy of the cd that comes with the hammer?
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23:05.24RobotGuyDr{Afk}: There is an update to the install CD.  I can't remember the URL though.  What do you need?
23:05.40RobotGuyHow did the sale go?
23:06.16Dr{Afk}shitty
23:07.01RobotGuyBummer.  You had some good stuff too.
23:07.14Dr{Afk}ya i will probably do it again someday soonish.
23:07.21RobotGuyI would have liked to have taken that mobo and a couple of those all PCs.
23:07.37Dr{Afk}well they are still here. : c )
23:07.45RobotGuyHmmmmmmm.. :)
23:08.12RobotGuyDo it at the beginning of the month and I will have money. :)
23:08.12Dr{Afk}if u get that url let me know i need to download it and zap this board
23:08.24RobotGuyWhat are you missing?
23:08.28Dr{Afk}ok well im sure i can give you a "your local" break :c  )
23:08.33Dr{Afk}i dont have the cd
23:09.12RobotGuyAh, OK. I might be able to help you though.  Let me see if I can upload the ISO to one of my outside websites
23:09.25Dr{Afk}ok cool. that would be perfect.
23:09.47Dr{Afk}i have to get some food in me or i will fall out of my chair.. ill be back in an hour.
23:13.28RobotGuyOK
23:45.26RobotGuyUploading

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