| 00:03.13 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 00:50.07 | boortix | so I just cross compiled a program and put it on my arm board and i am trying to run it but i keep getting "-sh: ./hello: not found" when the file is clearly there and permissions set properly |
| 00:50.11 | boortix | anyone know what's up? |
| 00:50.31 | SpeedEvil | wrong libraries? |
| 00:51.07 | boortix | hmm maybe, is that the error it would give? |
| 00:52.18 | SpeedEvil | I think it can - bt I'm very tired. |
| 01:11.05 | GPSFan | boortix: I've had that happen to me several times, it's usually a missing lib. Try ldd <program_name> and see what it says (on the target). (of course youmust have built ldd for this to be of any use.) |
| 01:18.35 | boortix | ok thanks I will try that |
| 01:19.11 | GPSFan | boortix: building ldd is an option in the buildroot .config IIRC. |
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| 13:49.33 | prpplague | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,342095,00.html |
| 13:49.57 | prpplague | now if we could just attract more tech jobs and r&d |
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| 13:51.31 | *** mode/#edev [+o sjhill] by ChanServ |
| 13:54.50 | prpplague | sjhill: greetings earthling |
| 14:05.43 | chouimat|work | morning |
| 14:06.44 | prpplague | chouimat|work: greetings |
| 14:06.50 | prpplague | chouimat|work: feeling better? |
| 14:07.05 | chouimat|work | not really ... it's quieter here |
| 14:17.31 | prpplague | grumbles about wasting dev time because the EE didn't connect power the clock for the SoC |
| 14:21.29 | agaffney | heh |
| 14:21.39 | agaffney | bah |
| 14:21.46 | *** mode/#edev [-o agaffney] by ChanServ |
| 14:22.09 | agaffney | somebody change my access level to one that can op but doesn't get auto-op'd :P |
| 14:24.26 | prpplague | agaffney: actually that a setting for your access that you can change iirc |
| 14:25.14 | agaffney | afaik, that's something that has to be set for the channel |
| 14:25.22 | agaffney | at which access level you get certain rights/abilities |
| 14:25.22 | prpplague | hmm |
| 14:25.29 | agaffney | op and auto-op are separate ones |
| 14:26.15 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 14:27.49 | prpplague | agaffney: try it now |
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| 14:33.57 | *** mode/#edev [-o agaffney] by ChanServ |
| 14:34.02 | agaffney | woot |
| 14:34.05 | agaffney | cool, thanks :P |
| 14:36.43 | prpplague | agaffney: no auto-op then? |
| 14:37.12 | agaffney | it appears that way |
| 14:37.18 | agaffney | I op'd myself after I rejoined |
| 14:37.28 | prpplague | ahh |
| 15:19.49 | sjhill | prpplague: greetings electron slave |
| 15:19.55 | prpplague | sjhill: hehe |
| 15:20.01 | prpplague | sjhill: whats cookin? |
| 15:20.13 | prpplague | sjhill: you say you were doing alot of ppc dev right now? |
| 15:20.18 | sjhill | code, requirements, design, and test procedure reviews today |
| 15:20.25 | sjhill | prpplague: yeah, tons |
| 15:20.52 | chouimat|work | hi sjhill T0mW |
| 15:21.02 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh |
| 15:21.06 | T0mW | chouimat|work: morning |
| 15:21.26 | prpplague | sjhill: i'd love to branch out to someof the other arch's but just can't seem to find the time |
| 15:21.28 | sjhill | T0mW! |
| 15:21.42 | prpplague | T0mW: greetings crack daddy |
| 15:21.48 | T0mW | sjhill: hey, what is going on out there? You still have a job? |
| 15:21.50 | T0mW | heh |
| 15:21.53 | sjhill | prpplague: i haven't worked on MIPS in close to 5 or 6 months, all ARM and PPC |
| 15:22.09 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh |
| 15:22.13 | sjhill | T0mW: and how...they keep giving me more and more money, i can't leave |
| 15:22.13 | prpplague | sjhill: which arm device? |
| 15:22.28 | sjhill | prpplague: Board from Conexant, internal dev only |
| 15:22.34 | SpeedEvil | Does anyone have a favourite cortex dev board? |
| 15:22.35 | T0mW | sjhill: I'm shopping for a home, maybe I should think on moving to Pittsburg. |
| 15:22.51 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i've been trying to figure out a good cortex board myself |
| 15:22.55 | sjhill | T0mW: i'me in Iowa, have been for almost 4 years now |
| 15:23.13 | T0mW | sjhill: what? They have jobs in Iowa? |
| 15:23.14 | SpeedEvil | prp |
| 15:23.15 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh, i've not seem much info on conexants arm SoC's |
| 15:23.16 | sjhill | T0mW: Pittsburgh is the pits! |
| 15:23.23 | chouimat|work | is working with pmc-sierra,freescale mpc8349 and marvell orion |
| 15:23.29 | sjhill | T0mW: we currently have >300 engineering openings |
| 15:23.31 | T0mW | sjhill: oh heck, I though you were working with TimeSys |
| 15:23.45 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: I'm trying to make a board - eventually - with bit-banged SDRAM interface too. |
| 15:24.10 | SpeedEvil | wants a cortex with 3M or so of memory. |
| 15:24.12 | sjhill | T0mW: nah, they headed in a different direction and moving to Iowa put us back with family |
| 15:24.33 | T0mW | sjhill: I'm currently spec'ing out a job w/S3C2440, new design. Maybe I'll check out Iowa in a year |
| 15:24.37 | sjhill | SpeedEvil: i have a cortex with Petabytes of memory |
| 15:24.54 | SpeedEvil | sjhill: the MCU. |
| 15:24.57 | sjhill | T0mW: sure, just let me know your status |
| 15:25.00 | T0mW | sjhill: it's cold up there, isn't it? |
| 15:25.06 | sjhill | T0mW: uh, yeah |
| 15:25.08 | SpeedEvil | sjhill: and what's the value of 0xFFFFFEAAAA |
| 15:25.21 | prpplague | sjhill: more than 300 job openings? wow |
| 15:25.22 | T0mW | sjhill: do they have women in Iowa? |
| 15:25.30 | sjhill | T0mW: our temps hit -20F, windchills even colder |
| 15:25.37 | sjhill | T0mW: oh my, yes indeed |
| 15:25.42 | prpplague | T0mW: no but they can put dresses on the cows and sheep |
| 15:25.52 | sjhill | smacks prpplague |
| 15:25.55 | T0mW | sjhill: LOL, that settles it, I'm going. Heh |
| 15:26.07 | T0mW | prpplague: ROTFL |
| 15:26.43 | prpplague | sjhill: many embedded linux dev jobs? |
| 15:27.00 | T0mW | sjhill: this isn't DoD work is it? I don't remember where I was in the 70's |
| 15:27.33 | sjhill | T0mW: we have both commercial and defense |
| 15:28.32 | prpplague | sjhill: that conexant arm you are working with an arm11? |
| 15:29.16 | sjhill | prpplague: ARM1176JZ_S |
| 15:29.25 | chouimat|work | interesting |
| 15:29.30 | sjhill | prpplague: a few, yes |
| 15:30.07 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh fun, i've been trying to tinker with both cortex and arm11, but getting them has be problematic |
| 15:31.15 | sjhill | prpplague: i never saw the hardware, i did all the development and let them test on their hardware. my stuff worked the first time it ran. |
| 15:31.46 | prpplague | sjhill: nice |
| 15:32.20 | prpplague | sjhill: so you never actually had a conexant based device to test/debug on? |
| 15:33.45 | sjhill | prpplague: no, it was a quick turnaround and they wanted to try avoiding sending hardware if not necessary |
| 15:34.00 | prpplague | sjhill: wow i'm impressed |
| 15:34.14 | prpplague | sjhill: what did you use? qemu ? |
| 15:34.38 | sjhill | no |
| 15:34.58 | prpplague | sjhill: wow |
| 15:34.59 | sjhill | i was just very careful and thought through everything i possible could |
| 15:35.07 | prpplague | is very impressed |
| 15:35.17 | sjhill | i tested what i could on x86 |
| 15:35.23 | prpplague | sjhill: i guess i'm lame, i really like to have hardware in my hands |
| 15:35.33 | prpplague | i can get by with qemu |
| 15:37.02 | sjhill | well, if it hadn't worked first time, i would have asked for hardware |
| 15:37.07 | SpeedEvil | On SDRAM. Does it have a minimum clock speed? As long as you keep within the refresh specs? |
| 15:37.10 | prpplague | hmm, SFLC finally decided to help commercial companies |
| 15:37.22 | prpplague | sjhill: none the less, it did work |
| 15:39.35 | sjhill | yeah, thank God |
| 15:40.08 | chouimat|work | sjhill: I hate that when you write stuff and you can't have access to the hardware ... |
| 15:40.27 | prpplague | sjhill: hehe, well i knew you were a hot shot guru, but dang, first time without hardware, i'm certainly impressed |
| 15:41.10 | sjhill | *blush* thx |
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| 16:29.36 | prpplague | ~wiav |
| 16:29.36 | purl | rumour has it, wiav is a patent troll with information at http://trolltracker.blogspot.com/2008/01/4-interesting-new-cases-from-last-2.html and http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/205753-texas-company-seeks-judgement-to-stop-potential-patent-suit |
| 16:34.15 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: the first one is login only AIUI |
| 16:34.17 | SpeedEvil | IIRC ratehr |
| 16:35.18 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: yea i need to correct that, since trolltracker's identity being exposed, the site went to invite only |
| 16:38.38 | sjhill | prpplague: ? |
| 16:38.53 | prpplague | sjhill: yes? |
| 16:38.57 | sjhill | prpplague: what's trolltracker and who's identity exposed? |
| 16:39.36 | prpplague | sjhill: trolltracker was a blog tracking patent trolls |
| 16:40.09 | prpplague | sjhill: apparently he pissed off alot of patent trolls |
| 16:40.18 | prpplague | sjhill: they offered a bounty for the persons identity |
| 16:40.32 | prpplague | sjhill: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/26/1827225 |
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| 16:48.18 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: SFLC finally... ? |
| 16:48.26 | SpeedEvil | Or can't you reveal it. |
| 16:48.33 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: what? |
| 16:48.52 | SpeedEvil | you posted that a few mins ago |
| 16:50.25 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: right SFLC announced they opened a new legal office to support "for-profit" companies who support OSS |
| 16:50.47 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 16:55.58 | prpplague | http://mcsmith.blogs.com/eastern_district_of_texas/2008/03/trolltracker-de.html |
| 17:00.03 | prpplague | man i wish i could find a cached copied of that trolltracker page |
| 17:01.52 | SpeedEvil | Oh - you want one? |
| 17:01.56 | SpeedEvil | hugs wwwoffled. |
| 17:01.59 | SpeedEvil | Really handy |
| 17:02.04 | SpeedEvil | it's a webcache |
| 17:02.37 | SpeedEvil | Over which ylou can run a search engine. Searching locally is easy as you don't get extraneous hits, and can find stuff that'd be unfindable on the wider net. |
| 17:02.46 | SpeedEvil | what was the URL again? |
| 17:05.53 | prpplague | ~wiav |
| 17:05.54 | purl | extra, extra, read all about it, wiav is a patent troll with information at http://trolltracker.blogspot.com/2008/01/4-interesting-new-cases-from-last-2.html and http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/205753-texas-company-seeks-judgement-to-stop-potential-patent-suit |
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| 17:06.33 | SpeedEvil | Argh |
| 17:06.48 | SpeedEvil | My copy's been nuked b the redirect page, sorry. |
| 17:07.10 | prpplague | yea same problem i'm running into |
| 17:07.24 | prpplague | looks like WIAV is going after alot of big names |
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| 17:32.51 | Sunrunner20 | le suck :\ |
| 17:32.57 | Sunrunner20 | there are no madnetic modelign programs |
| 17:33.03 | Sunrunner20 | I'll have to create my research |
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| 18:14.29 | ds2 | "morning" |
| 18:15.40 | landley | morning. |
| 18:17.20 | prpplague | landley: greetings |
| 18:17.26 | prpplague | landley: how goes it? |
| 18:17.27 | landley | Hiya. |
| 18:17.45 | landley | Went to the doctor this morning who confirmed I have a raging ear infection that's screwing up my inner ear on that side. |
| 18:17.56 | landley | Did another ekg to confirm my heart's fine. |
| 18:18.16 | landley | (He actually said it looks in considerably above average shape.) |
| 18:18.20 | landley | So yay for that. |
| 18:18.24 | landley | Got antibiotics and ear drops. |
| 18:18.41 | landley | Memo to self: do not take antibiotic on empty stomach again. |
| 18:18.51 | landley | Pulling a half day today, hope to feel much better tomorrow. |
| 18:19.16 | landley | (ALso got anti-vertigo medication I haven't taken yet.) |
| 18:19.28 | prpplague | landley: HA, just call me Dr.Dave |
| 18:19.54 | landley | is trying not to ponder why 2.6.25-rc7 broke the busybox build, and is instead trying to focus on _work_ until 3:30, when I'll have put in a half day and can go poke at impact some more. |
| 18:19.58 | chouimat|work | landley: fever + openspace office == lot of "it's freezing in here" ;) |
| 18:20.15 | landley | (They yanked asm/page.h, and I think only mkswap was using it... This is 1.2.2 anyway so the fix is to implement that in toybox and move on. :) |
| 18:20.28 | landley | chouimat: I have a jacket. |
| 18:20.31 | prpplague | interesting |
| 18:20.32 | landley | (And apparently do _not_ have a fever.) |
| 18:20.41 | prpplague | landley: hehe but chouimat|work does |
| 18:21.12 | landley | Yeah, so apparently it _wasn't_ attempting to read through nested C++ code that was making me dizzy, it was an inner ear thing. Good to know. |
| 18:21.20 | chouimat|work | prpplague: the only why I came in today is too much work and my neighbors make more noise than the marketing guys |
| 18:21.31 | chouimat|work | +reason |
| 18:24.52 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 18:25.32 | prpplague | landley: my father wanted to be a doctor, he even got a local doctor to pay for his school, but his father(my grandfather) had a stroke, and my father had to take care of the familily |
| 18:25.59 | prpplague | landley: so when me and brother and sister were growing up, we were educated in everything medical, hehe |
| 18:26.28 | prpplague | landley: our family joke is we called it the "Anders School of Medicine" |
| 18:26.52 | landley | My major was pre-nursing at one point, until I confirmed I couldn't avoid giving people injections. |
| 18:26.55 | landley | has a problem with needles. |
| 18:27.27 | landley | Turned it into a biology minor instead, which turned into a second major "general science" when stretched with chemistry and physics courses. |
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| 18:28.56 | landley | prpplague: you said you had broken up patches that apply to a current kernel? |
| 18:29.18 | landley | should have time to poke at it this evening, assuming the antibiotics kick in enough that he feels up to it. |
| 18:30.37 | prpplague | landley: yea, i've it pretty much ready for 2.6.22, but i'm still testing/tweaking for 2.6.25 |
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| 18:43.55 | landley | If you simply have it broken up, that's a significant improvement over what I've got here. |
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| 19:57.56 | RobotGuy | is away: Soldering LEDs |
| 20:04.11 | RobotGuy-Out | returns. |
| 20:06.08 | RobotGuy | There's so much scroll here I can hardly stand it. ;) |
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| 20:33.24 | RobotGuy | I need a bigger work space for robotics and electronics. |
| 20:52.37 | landley | prpplague: could you send me what you've got, broken up patch-wise, so I can try it out? |
| 20:53.30 | CosmicPenguin | Okay, I'm having a brain cramp |
| 20:53.42 | prpplague | landley: yea, i'll get it to you via email in the morning, i've got to finish something by 5:30 today |
| 20:53.51 | RobotGuy | My brain has way too many cool ideas in it. |
| 20:53.54 | CosmicPenguin | is there not a unix utility to tell you what which drive a particular directory is mounted on? |
| 20:54.15 | RobotGuy | CosmicPenguin: It's called /etc/fstab :D |
| 20:54.31 | RobotGuy | Or df -h |
| 20:54.34 | CosmicPenguin | s/you/a script/ |
| 20:54.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm good question, i don't think there is a single command |
| 20:54.34 | landley | ok |
| 20:54.51 | landley | I'm just vaguely interested in poking at the nail tonight, but if I can't build a kernel for it there's much less poking I can do... |
| 20:55.08 | landley | (I wanna build one with an initramfs and a filesystem I provide in a jffs2, and that means "build my own kernel"...) |
| 20:55.31 | prpplague | landley: i'll see if i have time before i leave this evening |
| 20:55.38 | RobotGuy | Why is buildroot upset: configure: error: Pthreads are required to build libgomp |
| 20:55.51 | landley | CosmicPenguin: "mountpoint". |
| 20:56.00 | CosmicPenguin | thats it! |
| 20:56.03 | CosmicPenguin | gold star - thanks much |
| 20:56.18 | landley | Also "df ." |
| 20:56.30 | CosmicPenguin | heh - thats embarassingly easy |
| 20:56.33 | CosmicPenguin | slinks off |
| 20:56.33 | landley | The second is useful if the directory you're in is _under_ a mountpoint. |
| 20:56.48 | landley | Mountpoint says "directory blah is not a mountpoint" when it isn't the actual mount point. |
| 20:58.19 | prpplague | landley: is there a reason you don't want to use the consoladated patch to do your kernel builds?(just curious) |
| 20:58.35 | landley | prpplague: consolidated patches are harder to apply to new kernels? |
| 20:58.53 | landley | I haven't tried applying the consolidated patch from 2.6.22 to 2.6.25. |
| 20:58.55 | prpplague | landley: oh you are trying to apply to a new kernel? |
| 20:59.04 | landley | I remember from my read through that there was some stuff I wanted to drop out. |
| 20:59.12 | landley | I was planning on doing another read through when I got the broken up patches. |
| 20:59.24 | prpplague | landley: yea there is alot of stuff that isn't relevant |
| 20:59.28 | landley | I don't need the "call hotplug when this button is pressed" thing... |
| 20:59.35 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:59.52 | prpplague | landley: you want against 24 or 25? |
| 21:00.18 | landley | There's also that weird bit about changing ".start" in the platform thingy, which seemed like something the bootloader would do for you. |
| 21:00.32 | landley | I dunno how that's going to be impacted by me going from an initrd to an initramfs... |
| 21:00.38 | landley | (Do I have to pass it a dummy initrd?) |
| 21:00.43 | prpplague | landley: thats only needed if you are changing a bunch of the sizes |
| 21:00.47 | landley | prpplague: I'm currently testing .25-rc7 |
| 21:00.57 | landley | A bunch of what sizes? |
| 21:01.17 | prpplague | landley: sizes for the partitions and initrd/initramfs sizes |
| 21:01.27 | landley | I'm bundling initramfs into the kernel image. |
| 21:01.31 | landley | Not passing it in as a separate image. |
| 21:01.35 | landley | So I'm changing its size to _zero_. |
| 21:01.48 | landley | I'm adding a jffs2 filesystem and having the initramfs find and mount it and switch_root to it. |
| 21:02.23 | landley | And I'd like to give the jffs2 all but about 2 megabytes of the flash. (Depending on how big the bootloader is, I'm still not sure.) |
| 21:02.38 | prpplague | landley: yea the sizes for the partitions are calculated this way: 256k for the bootloader + size of kernel + size of initrd |
| 21:02.41 | prpplague | landley: so... |
| 21:02.51 | prpplague | landley: for you when using initramfs |
| 21:03.00 | landley | I should be able to keep the kernel under 1.75 megs. |
| 21:03.04 | landley | Even with initramfs. :) |
| 21:03.11 | prpplague | landley: it would be: 256k for the bootloader + size of kernel with initramfs |
| 21:03.35 | landley | What is .start, anyway? Kernel start address? Start of the jffs2 mtd thingy? |
| 21:03.36 | prpplague | landley: if it is less than 1.75megs there will be no reason to change the values |
| 21:04.08 | landley | Is it wasting space that could otherwise go to the jffs2? |
| 21:04.27 | prpplague | landley: .start is basically the offset of where the "partition" begins in the flash |
| 21:04.35 | landley | ok |
| 21:04.46 | prpplague | landley: but that isnt used in the hammer config |
| 21:04.50 | prpplague | landley: only the .size |
| 21:05.03 | Sunrunner20 | hey |
| 21:05.09 | landley | My current armv4l zImage (without initramfs) is 967k. |
| 21:05.11 | prpplague | landley: the newer builds of the kernel use .offset instead of .start |
| 21:05.13 | landley | Plenty of room to spare... |
| 21:05.19 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 21:05.38 | Sunrunner20 | any of ya'll know how to use bitmask style settings (add 1 for blah, 2 for blah blah etc) with a switch statment? (C++) |
| 21:05.41 | landley | Um, so is .size also the offset where the jffs2 starts? |
| 21:05.59 | landley | Sunrunner20: a switch statement is C, not C++. |
| 21:06.05 | prpplague | landley: correct |
| 21:06.06 | landley | And what exactly are you asking again? |
| 21:06.38 | Sunrunner20 | landley: an 8 bit interger, has 8 bits. which is an easy way to store options for 8 things |
| 21:06.48 | landley | char? |
| 21:06.49 | Sunrunner20 | issue is acceccsing each individual bit |
| 21:06.58 | Sunrunner20 | char ususally has 8 bits |
| 21:07.06 | landley | (1<<offset)&data |
| 21:07.20 | landley | or just 1&data, 2&data, 4&data... |
| 21:07.28 | Sunrunner20 | kk |
| 21:07.35 | Redhatter | You don't do it with a switch though ;-) |
| 21:07.39 | prpplague | landley: give me a few minutes to set up 2.6.25-rc7 and generate the core patch |
| 21:07.43 | Sunrunner20 | i figured that |
| 21:07.46 | landley | Use an if/else staircase. |
| 21:07.58 | Sunrunner20 | yea |
| 21:08.03 | landley | Or mask it at the top of the switch(), not in the cases. |
| 21:08.06 | landley | Depends on what you're trying to do. |
| 21:08.26 | Sunrunner20 | settings :) |
| 21:08.27 | landley | prpplague: ok. Thanks. |
| 21:08.37 | Sunrunner20 | decides what type of output data i'm showing |
| 21:08.50 | Redhatter | I'd use 1&data, 2&data...etc approach, but I'd have #defined constants rather than magic numbers. |
| 21:08.52 | Sunrunner20 | I figured bitmask because its the easyiest way to let the user dicide what info they want |
| 21:09.06 | landley | so use CONST&data |
| 21:09.17 | Redhatter | landley: Yep |
| 21:09.33 | landley | There's a C programming channel here, you know. |
| 21:09.49 | landley | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:14.56 | Sunrunner20 | its not C.... |
| 21:14.59 | Sunrunner20 | i'm in C++ |
| 21:15.28 | Sunrunner20 | and wether you start with Case or switch varys among languages.... |
| 21:15.40 | Sunrunner20 | I've tired to many to get it right every time :) |
| 21:15.46 | Sunrunner20 | *tried |
| 21:16.31 | landley | Sunrunner20: C++ isn't an interesting language, sorry. |
| 21:17.30 | CosmicPenguin | agreed |
| 21:17.41 | *** join/#edev chouimat|away (n=dieu@r2351064.cidc.net) |
| 21:18.18 | prpplague | seconds that |
| 21:18.54 | prpplague | i like to make the junior programmers do the c++ so i don't have to, hehe |
| 21:19.10 | ds2 | ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww C++ |
| 21:19.56 | Sunrunner20 | whats a better language then? |
| 21:20.15 | Sunrunner20 | or do you truely mean interesting? |
| 21:20.17 | prpplague | Sunrunner20: cobol of course |
| 21:20.18 | Sunrunner20 | as in |
| 21:20.20 | Sunrunner20 | lol |
| 21:20.23 | ds2 | assembly |
| 21:20.28 | Sunrunner20 | screw that |
| 21:20.39 | landley | Sunrunner20: C. |
| 21:20.46 | Sunrunner20 | asm is the "I like to torture myself" language |
| 21:20.50 | landley | And if you want something 4th generation, python. |
| 21:21.02 | landley | it's the no man's land between C and python that causes problems. |
| 21:21.08 | ds2 | nah, asm is very straight forward and reasonable |
| 21:21.10 | landley | In C you have static typing and static memory management. |
| 21:21.16 | landley | (asm is too much work.) |
| 21:21.26 | ds2 | asm is only painful if you need to make system calls ;) |
| 21:21.28 | prpplague | i've always wanted to look at ada |
| 21:21.29 | landley | C is essentially a portable assembly language, 90% of the call for assembly can be done in C. |
| 21:21.42 | landley | In python, you have dynamic typing and dynamic memory management. |
| 21:21.54 | landley | Moving from c-> python starts by replacing pointers with references. |
| 21:22.06 | ds2 | and with arm assembly is neat... no tests/jumps, things just "happen" |
| 21:22.07 | landley | A reference is always guaranteed to point to either a valid object, or to NULL. |
| 21:22.26 | landley | Once you've got references, you can garbage collect, meaning you never have to manually de-allocate stuff. |
| 21:22.31 | landley | Dynamic memory management. |
| 21:22.51 | ds2 | ewww GC |
| 21:22.53 | landley | You can also bounds check all accesses, which his has a performance penalty but makes another entire _class_ of programming errors go away. |
| 21:23.07 | landley | ds2: you can supplement the gc with reference counting to have much prompter freeing. Python does this. |
| 21:23.15 | ds2 | write perfect programs so there are no errors :P |
| 21:23.21 | Sunrunner20 | :) |
| 21:23.23 | landley | ds2: there are no perfect programs. |
| 21:23.34 | landley | A friend of mine found an error in a zero byte program. I can't top that. |
| 21:23.40 | Sunrunner20 | o.0 |
| 21:23.53 | landley | SGI Irix implemented "true" as an empty file. |
| 21:24.00 | ds2 | landley: nah.. there are.. the bugs are in the specs ;) |
| 21:24.09 | landley | The shell interpreted it as a shell script, loaded it, did nothing, exited with error code 0. |
| 21:24.17 | landley | They patted themselves on the back for their ingenuity. |
| 21:24.31 | landley | Then somebody used "true" from the shell's .rc file. The shell spawned a shell which spawned a shell... |
| 21:24.36 | landley | System ran out of memory, dumped core... |
| 21:24.47 | landley | Bug in a zero byte file. |
| 21:24.56 | landley | INIFINITE BUG DENSITY! |
| 21:25.18 | landley | Anyway, references let you do garbage collection, and also let you do dynamic typing easily. |
| 21:25.19 | ds2 | that is a spec issue :P |
| 21:25.26 | landley | You can dereference the object to see what it is. |
| 21:25.41 | landley | With python, grab any arbitrary object and call any method on it, or access any member. Doesnt' matter what it is. |
| 21:25.47 | landley | if it can't be done, it'll throw an exception. |
| 21:25.58 | landley | Which you can catch, and ADD the member to the obect. |
| 21:26.05 | landley | Totally different kind of programming. |
| 21:26.25 | landley | Of course this requires a runtime for the garbage collection and bounds checking and dynamic typing code. |
| 21:26.47 | landley | And once you've got a runtime executing your program, running bytecode instead of native code becomes trivial. |
| 21:27.02 | landley | Bytecode is quick and simple to compile to, meaning you can set the executable bit on your source and just run that. |
| 21:27.12 | landley | Thus modern fourth generation languages tend to be known as "scripting languages". |
| 21:27.23 | landley | The switchover from C to scripting languages tends to come as a lump. |
| 21:27.30 | landley | Now try to do a language in between, like C++ or Java. |
| 21:27.39 | landley | Java combines dynamic memory management with static typing. |
| 21:27.49 | landley | And then tries to work around it with interfaces and such. |
| 21:28.12 | landley | It gets sad and bloated and complicated and all the people using a fully 4th gen language like python or ruby (or dialects of perl) point and laugh. |
| 21:28.22 | landley | C++ never left pointers behind! |
| 21:28.50 | landley | They keep trying to add things like "smart pointers", but you can't solve the problem that way. |
| 21:29.07 | landley | If the problem is "we have something that needs to be removed. let's add more stuff until it goes away!" |
| 21:29.21 | landley | It's like fat people wondering what they can eat to lose weight. |
| 21:29.24 | landley | Wrong approach entirely. |
| 21:29.49 | landley | If you can't guarantee the code will NOT use pointers, you can't garbage collect, so you wind up doing static memory management. |
| 21:30.08 | landley | And it's a statically typed language that must resolve all types at compile time. |
| 21:30.16 | landley | They added "templates" to try to fake dynamic typing... at compile time! |
| 21:30.31 | landley | Doing dynamic typing at compile time is like doing garbage collection at compile time. It DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. |
| 21:30.51 | landley | And they do exception handling at compile time too: crap execption handling code onto the stack at the end of ever scope. |
| 21:31.02 | ds2 | dynamic is bad. |
| 21:31.03 | landley | Bloat the code by a factor of 3, it's a rounding error compared to what the templates are doing... |
| 21:31.06 | landley | Then you try to debug it! |
| 21:31.07 | ds2 | static and determistic is good. |
| 21:31.14 | prpplague | landley: do you want me to include the changes needed in the main make to configure it for arm and the cross compiler? |
| 21:31.15 | landley | ds2; ha. |
| 21:31.23 | landley | prpplague: yes please. |
| 21:31.41 | ds2 | I like my programs either always work or always fail |
| 21:31.51 | ds2 | somethings working just doesn't cut it. |
| 21:32.58 | landley | ds2: in the real world, programs work on more than one set of inputs. |
| 21:33.55 | ds2 | landley: it isn't the inputs i am concerned with. it is behaving determistically with all inputs |
| 21:34.11 | ds2 | people work very hard to make their systems determistics... |
| 21:34.38 | ds2 | RT is one approach but pouring dyanamic stuff into it adds a major wrench in the works |
| 21:36.19 | prpplague | landley: running a build now to test |
| 21:43.09 | prpplague | oh how i love the fact the same @#$@#$ that was broken in 2.6.16 is still broken in 2.6.25 |
| 21:46.50 | prpplague | landley: looks like some of the header files have changed, having a look now |
| 21:47.22 | landley | That's why I'm doing my test build while it's still -pre. |
| 21:47.38 | landley | I'd hate to have been blindsided by the perl thing. (Or asm/page.h going away, but that was minor.) |
| 21:48.20 | ds2 | submit a patch? :) |
| 21:48.22 | ds2 | runs |
| 21:48.42 | prpplague | landley: i don;t have much time to test the image, but i'll atleast make sure it boots |
| 21:49.09 | prpplague | ds2: i've summited a patch for the ioremap.c issue every kernel version since 2.6.16 |
| 21:49.34 | landley | ds2: i did submit a patch to remove perl. |
| 21:49.55 | landley | Nobody else acked the patch, and HPA dismissed me as a lone crazy trying to figure what the minimal build requirements are for purely academic reasons. |
| 21:50.07 | ds2 | heh |
| 21:50.08 | landley | Nobody else on the list expressed ANY interest in the patch. |
| 21:50.19 | ds2 | landley: make it part of the linux-tiny stuff? |
| 21:50.49 | prpplague | plugs in his nail board for testing |
| 21:51.07 | landley | ds2: maybe. |
| 21:51.31 | landley | I posted it on the list, and I'll check an updated version into my Impact patches directory when I move to 2.6.25. |
| 21:55.05 | prpplague | ahh i don't know what i'd do without my net radio station "Groove Salad" |
| 21:55.12 | prpplague | it's soooo perfect to code by |
| 21:56.49 | prpplague | landley: you ever see that old easter egg in the sysv init code that linux used for years, the one aerosmith "tyler" one? |
| 21:57.25 | landley | no? |
| 21:57.36 | prpplague | oh lordy, now not only have they not fixed the ioremap.c they have two more identical bugs |
| 21:57.37 | agaffney | prpplague: I found vocal trance is pretty good to code to |
| 21:58.24 | prpplague | landley: yea, if you were logged in as user "tyler" and issued a shutdown command, it printed some of the text from the song "love in an elevator" |
| 21:58.42 | CosmicPenguin | I've been listening to pop dance music from france lately |
| 21:58.49 | CosmicPenguin | keeps me upbeat in a downbeat world |
| 21:59.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 21:59.31 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i have a homebrew audio cd that my wife listens to, its all non-english songs |
| 21:59.50 | agaffney | checks out "Groove Salad" |
| 22:00.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i've got the label as: "What the hell are they saying?" |
| 22:00.14 | prpplague | agaffney: www.somafm.com |
| 22:01.47 | prpplague | landley: up to the piggy, so i should be able to test in a minute |
| 22:02.36 | landley | prpplague: the piggy? |
| 22:03.28 | prpplague | landley: hehe, you never read the kernel file names as the build? |
| 22:03.44 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.44 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.44 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.44 | prpplague | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:03.49 | landley | Ah, that. |
| 22:03.50 | landley | Ok. |
| 22:04.01 | landley | (The guy who found the bug in the zero byte file is named "piggy" too, just wondering.) |
| 22:04.08 | landley | Lamont "piggy" Yaroll. |
| 22:04.09 | prpplague | landley: ahh |
| 22:04.22 | landley | Sounded like a server name, in that context... |
| 22:04.29 | prpplague | landley: uploading the image now for testing |
| 22:04.34 | landley | ok |
| 22:04.40 | ds2 | does he use 'oink' as his password? |
| 22:05.07 | RobotGuy | I'm going to be out for awhile, back later. |
| 22:05.36 | prpplague | my wife has a cousin who's last name is Choy, she gets mad because i always ask her if the cousin has a brother named Bok |
| 22:06.54 | landley | ds2: not that I know of. |
| 22:07.42 | landley | How went uploading? |
| 22:08.20 | agaffney | prpplague: yep, already found it |
| 22:08.27 | agaffney | prpplague: I'm liking it |
| 22:08.32 | prpplague | landley: hmm, i'm getting an error, looks like one of the clock's isn't getting registered, i suspect that its changed between 22 and 25 |
| 22:08.37 | prpplague | landley: checking now |
| 22:09.12 | ds2 | or changed names? |
| 22:09.29 | ds2 | seemed to be plagued with new clock names |
| 22:11.39 | prpplague | ds2: ben dooks has been making massive changes to the s3c24xx platform structure |
| 22:12.20 | ds2 | prpplague: nothing unique there... that's a typical storm for the omap stuff |
| 22:13.28 | prpplague | ds2: yea looks like one of the clock definitions changed |
| 22:13.32 | prpplague | landley: re compiling now |
| 22:15.56 | *** join/#edev ccjoe (n=ccjoe@www.clearcore.com) |
| 22:17.20 | prpplague | landley: ok boots |
| 22:17.28 | prpplague | landley: give me a minute to generate the patch |
| 22:17.35 | prpplague | landley: i'll post it on the wiki |
| 22:19.43 | landley | Coolness. Thanks. |
| 22:19.59 | landley | By "the patch" you mean it's still not broken up? :) |
| 22:20.04 | landley | (I can break it up myself...) |
| 22:20.53 | prpplague | landley: this patch just add core tct support |
| 22:21.47 | prpplague | landley: shouldn't be anything to break up |
| 22:21.58 | landley | ok |
| 22:22.00 | landley | Thanks. |
| 22:25.14 | prpplague | landley: http://www.elinux.org/wiki/upload/2/2d/Patch-2.6.25-rc7-hammer.bz2 |
| 22:25.31 | Sunrunner20 | arg |
| 22:25.33 | Sunrunner20 | ok |
| 22:25.40 | Sunrunner20 | best source for connectors? |
| 22:26.01 | ds2 | what kind of connectors? |
| 22:26.21 | Sunrunner20 | USB |
| 22:27.00 | ds2 | digikey/mouse unless you are in the silly valley in which case, anchor has the full size connectors |
| 22:28.11 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-1700.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 22:28.45 | prpplague | landley: you get the patch ok? |
| 22:29.07 | landley | prpplague: yup. |
| 22:29.17 | landley | Is there a .config? |
| 22:29.33 | prpplague | landley: the patch generates a Hammer-config in the main directory |
| 22:29.45 | landley | Ah, I see. |
| 22:29.55 | landley | Right, I'll move that to the defconfig directory. |
| 22:30.22 | landley | The makefile changes seem unnecessary too. |
| 22:30.32 | landley | (Is the setting of SUBARCH required?0 |
| 22:30.33 | prpplague | landley: which ones? |
| 22:30.38 | landley | All of 'em. |
| 22:30.50 | landley | CROSS_COMPILE default, SUBARCH, and extraversion. |
| 22:31.01 | prpplague | landley: i asked you if you wanted me to set them as part of the patch hehe |
| 22:31.11 | landley | Did you? |
| 22:31.20 | prpplague | <prpplague> landley: do you want me to include the changes needed in the main make to configure it for arm and the cross compiler? |
| 22:31.21 | prpplague | <landley> ds2; ha. |
| 22:31.21 | prpplague | <landley> prpplague: yes please. |
| 22:31.48 | landley | Ah, I didn't understand what you were asking. |
| 22:31.53 | landley | I can adjust it here. |
| 22:31.56 | prpplague | landley: hehe, np |
| 22:32.51 | prpplague | landley: ok i gotta get out of here for today, drop me an email with any issues |
| 22:36.57 | landley | ok. Thanks. |
| 22:37.10 | Sunrunner20 | I think i'm going to start a company thta makes magnetic break away connectors |
| 22:37.34 | landley | Sunrunner20: check Apple's patents first. |
| 22:37.55 | landley | Fade's Mac laptop has a marvelous little magnetic power connector... |
| 22:38.10 | Sunrunner20 | yea |
| 22:38.12 | Sunrunner20 | i know |
| 22:38.15 | Sunrunner20 | I found out about that latter |
| 22:38.22 | Sunrunner20 | I had my idea first :) |
| 22:39.49 | Sunrunner20 | and I'm thinking end user level |
| 22:40.31 | landley | Having an idea first doesn't help much if you never expressed something you can hold up as prior art and they patented it first. |
| 22:40.50 | landley | Software patents may be somewhat squishy, but hardware patents are quite enforceable... |
| 22:50.18 | Sunrunner20 | lol |
| 22:50.21 | Sunrunner20 | trust me |
| 22:50.37 | Sunrunner20 | patents have to be specific enough that what I'm planning won't be anything like macs |
| 22:51.18 | Sunrunner20 | besides |
| 22:51.33 | Sunrunner20 | I can make a shitload of money off of break away connnectors for laptop power supplies |
| 22:51.50 | Sunrunner20 | I have to say, as long as I price them reasonably I'll bet most people in here would buy one :) |
| 22:52.09 | Sunrunner20 | (and they arn't crap, but that goes w/o saying) |
| 22:52.35 | SpeedEvil | magnetic? |
| 22:52.43 | Sunrunner20 | likely |
| 22:52.53 | Sunrunner20 | but not nessacarily |
| 22:53.02 | SpeedEvil | stabs the USB people for not getting it right. |
| 22:53.08 | Sunrunner20 | lol |
| 22:53.27 | Sunrunner20 | i'm about to study the effect on signal quality going through a magnet |
| 22:53.27 | SpeedEvil | Why would I want another power cord to my laptop/... when I already have USB. |
| 22:53.34 | Sunrunner20 | I doubt it'll do anything |
| 22:53.49 | Sunrunner20 | SpeedEvil: its not _another_ one |
| 22:54.00 | Sunrunner20 | it would attach to your existing power cord |
| 22:54.17 | Sunrunner20 | you know the stats on laptop power recpticals right? |
| 22:54.31 | SpeedEvil | Oh no - I mean - I want to be able to just plug into a USB lead for my dock, and have it charge the laptop. |
| 22:54.34 | SpeedEvil | define stats. |
| 22:54.55 | landley | SpeedRunner: I've had a couple laptops due due to people tripping over the power cord and cracking the connector. |
| 22:54.56 | Sunrunner20 | rotflmao, you can't get enough power for a laptop through USB |
| 22:55.04 | Sunrunner20 | EXACTLY landley |
| 22:55.16 | Sunrunner20 | would you spend $15 or the time to get it fixed ^_^ |
| 22:55.33 | SpeedEvil | Sunrunner20: this is predicated on the standard having included a 30V 1A mode from the start. |
| 22:55.55 | Sunrunner20 | don't know what laptop your using... |
| 22:56.04 | Sunrunner20 | the EEE barly marks under 30W |
| 22:56.52 | Sunrunner20 | the cpu on my laptop has a thermal design power of something like 38W |
| 22:56.54 | SpeedEvil | battery charging is 21W |
| 22:57.19 | Sunrunner20 | you might be able to charge it while its off... (normal laptops) |
| 22:57.36 | Sunrunner20 | but it would do nilche but extend time while running |
| 22:58.04 | Sunrunner20 | but thats not my point |
| 22:58.06 | Sunrunner20 | although |
| 22:58.12 | Sunrunner20 | I'm planning on starting off w/ USB |
| 22:58.19 | Sunrunner20 | maby |
| 22:58.33 | Sunrunner20 | depends on what I can do w/ this company |
| 22:59.11 | Sunrunner20 | they do magnetic work + injection molding of magnetic material |
| 22:59.37 | SpeedEvil | yout don't want injection moulding of magnetic material. |
| 22:59.48 | Sunrunner20 | course I do |
| 22:59.57 | Sunrunner20 | its the easiest way to get it in the shape I want |
| 23:00.00 | SpeedEvil | It's comparatively _much_ weaker than proper magnets. |
| 23:00.04 | Sunrunner20 | and it doesn't need to be that strong |
| 23:00.17 | SpeedEvil | So you're going to either have to go with a huge area, or have it fall off all teh time. |
| 23:00.54 | Sunrunner20 | you don't want or need much more than a pound or two of magnetic force holding the plug |
| 23:01.21 | SpeedEvil | But a pound in a square centimeter is quite a high pressure. |
| 23:01.22 | Sunrunner20 | and _if_ I can get the strenght I need out of injection molding thats what I'm going to do |
| 23:02.08 | Sunrunner20 | it'll ease the manufactureing proccess quite a bit |
| 23:02.51 | *** join/#edev _ccjoe_ (n=ccjoe@www.clearcore.com) |
| 23:03.14 | Sunrunner20 | SpeedEvil: have you analized apple's method of the break away conector? |
| 23:03.45 | SpeedEvil | I don't actually agree - I don't see the complexity. Couple of radially magnetised rare earth magnets. |
| 23:04.27 | Sunrunner20 | its a whole nother step if you have to add an additional part during production |
| 23:04.45 | SpeedEvil | magnet is positive, shell round it is negative. |
| 23:05.47 | SpeedEvil | radial as in north (or south) in the middle, the otehr pole at the outside |
| 23:05.51 | Sunrunner20 | eitehr I'm going deaf in y left ear or vista fucked up my sound ballance >_> |
| 23:06.45 | CosmicPenguin | can't it be both? |
| 23:07.13 | Sunrunner20 | If i go deaf i'll probally off myself |
| 23:12.13 | Sunrunner20 | wtf |
| 23:12.49 | Sunrunner20 | ok |
| 23:12.51 | Sunrunner20 | my ear is fine |
| 23:20.41 | Sunrunner20 | o.0 |
| 23:20.47 | Sunrunner20 | I uped the sampleing/bits and it fixed itself |
| 23:21.55 | ds2 | why have a connector |
| 23:22.00 | ds2 | inductive charging! |
| 23:22.12 | ds2 | ones that work by driving near a high tension power line }:-) |
| 23:23.11 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp070.109-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 23:36.16 | *** join/#edev roxfan2 (n=dunno@43.215-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 23:54.33 | Sunrunner20 | I wonder |
| 23:55.04 | Sunrunner20 | I could probally use a pair of centrical w/ hole in middle and one that fits in the hole |
| 23:55.09 | Sunrunner20 | though |
| 23:55.14 | Sunrunner20 | would probally be way too powerfull |
| 23:56.43 | ds2 | why bother with a hole? |
| 23:57.09 | Sunrunner20 | ds2: easy way to key the connector |
| 23:57.14 | ds2 | If I were to attempt it, I'd use the magnet polarity to key it |
| 23:57.26 | ds2 | no physical stuff so if things get hung up, nothing breaks |
| 23:57.29 | SpeedEvil | coaxial |
| 23:57.46 | Sunrunner20 | I also need to figure out how to get 3 or more leads though |
| 23:57.48 | ds2 | I don't see a reason to use coaxial keying |
| 23:58.01 | SpeedEvil | You arrange the contacts coaxially |
| 23:58.06 | SpeedEvil | then you have no keying issues |
| 23:58.08 | ds2 | a creative pattern of N/S should be able to polarize it sufficiently |
| 23:58.12 | Sunrunner20 | yea |
| 23:58.17 | SpeedEvil | and you can plug it in in any rotation |
| 23:58.35 | ds2 | but you still have a hole; just using magnetic keying means you can have a sealed system |
| 23:58.36 | Sunrunner20 | which is my main train of though |
| 23:58.43 | ds2 | enviromentally harderned |
| 23:59.01 | SpeedEvil | Why would you need a hole? |
| 23:59.13 | Sunrunner20 | SpeedEvil: second condoctor path |
| 23:59.27 | Sunrunner20 | outter magnet== one inner mag== 2 |
| 23:59.29 | SpeedEvil | well - of course you need a hole through the case |
| 23:59.35 | SpeedEvil | err - no |
| 23:59.55 | ds2 | SpeedEvil: isn't have 2 context side by side better? |
| 23:59.57 | SpeedEvil | One circular magnet - say 8mm diameter |