| 00:00.08 | landley | Sienna: more accurate would be to double it. |
| 00:00.08 | Sienna | instead of a good engineer with a shitty boss |
| 00:00.10 | Sienna | its a personal ethics thing! |
| 00:00.17 | landley | Engineers suck at making time estimates. We're always optimistic. |
| 00:00.35 | ds2 | nah... it'd be compensating for a errata in the program manager |
| 00:00.36 | prpplague | landley agreed |
| 00:00.36 | landley | Debugging always takes half the time. |
| 00:00.43 | Sienna | ah, but we also are more motivated to meeting our own goals |
| 00:00.58 | landley | If they half your original estimate, make sure you leave a paper trail. |
| 00:01.08 | landley | So that when it goes wrong, you can prove that you didn't say what they think you said. |
| 00:01.12 | landley | Email is wonderful for this... |
| 00:01.38 | prpplague | my main problem is that what we are working on is complete new design, completely from scratch and using components that we've never used before |
| 00:02.10 | prpplague | and the boss is using time estimates based on past projects where we were reusing components and designs |
| 00:02.39 | Sienna | ah yes, because those obviosly are related |
| 00:03.35 | Sienna | wait... why are we all bitching about work, in the absence of alcohol! (having never really drunk before a year ago, I am starting to appreciate it i guess) |
| 00:03.49 | prpplague | yea, getting a bootloader on a cpu design we've already used is totally different from a bootloader on a completely new design |
| 00:04.01 | prpplague | Sienna speak for yourself |
| 00:04.07 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@69.73.220.145) |
| 00:04.07 | prpplague | has a nice black lager |
| 00:05.01 | Sienna | swipes it |
| 00:05.35 | prpplague | well we'll see how things go tomorrow |
| 00:05.47 | Sienna | good luck! |
| 00:06.04 | prpplague | part of the design is we have three pcbs, a cpu board, and power supply board and a cradle board |
| 00:07.15 | prpplague | they all plug into each other, problem is, none of the signals match and they don't have the correct signals connecting between the boards |
| 00:07.46 | Sienna | who the hell is your systems engineer? (whatever the commercial equivalent is, the person who makes sure everyone has the same requirements and is talking) |
| 00:08.32 | prpplague | Sienna thats another issue, the engineering manager retired about 9 months ago and they've not replaced him |
| 00:08.38 | landley | Darn it. |
| 00:08.47 | landley | The marvelous grace hopper keynote I read years ago is at http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=800025.1198340&coll=portal&dl=ACM&type=series&idx=SERIES003&part=series&WantType=Proceedings&title=HOPL |
| 00:08.54 | landley | But you need to be an ACM member to log in and read it. :( |
| 00:08.55 | prpplague | Sienna they hired this EE about the same time, and he basically thinks he's in charge |
| 00:09.01 | Sienna | oh lordy |
| 00:09.13 | landley | doesn't drink alcohol. |
| 00:09.18 | landley | I'm bad enough of caffiene... |
| 00:09.41 | Sienna | thats largely what my job is at work, making sure that everyone is working toward the solution that will meet the customers requirements |
| 00:10.00 | Sienna | (well, when I am not stuck being the network goddess at least, which i hate with a passion) |
| 00:10.08 | prpplague | landley tomorrow will be one week for my hammer patch submission |
| 00:10.23 | landley | prpplague: cc me on the follow-up post, please. |
| 00:10.24 | prpplague | Sienna hehe |
| 00:10.29 | prpplague | landley will do |
| 00:10.34 | prpplague | gonna wait for friday |
| 00:11.06 | landley | Sienna: at least you don't have to do archeological expeditions through C++ code that was ported from a stack of vxworks machines to a multi-threaded Linux server. |
| 00:11.16 | prpplague | got a ton of work for tomorrow, plus i suspect i will be a little frustrated after our meeting at 10am |
| 00:11.26 | landley | prpplague: monday's best actually. |
| 00:11.33 | landley | Post on a friday and it can get lost of the weekend. |
| 00:11.44 | landley | Some people wander away from their computers on weekends. (I don't, but...) |
| 00:11.50 | landley | Then again, go ahead and do it friday. :) |
| 00:11.50 | prpplague | landley hehe or fix code on a legacy product running a 2.2 kernel |
| 00:11.51 | Sienna | yes, you wanna know where your tax dollar goes? To paying contractors who make people like me have to do something they have never studied or are interested in just because they spoke up about how FUBAR the design was when any 6 year old could have seen the problem! |
| 00:11.56 | landley | That gives _me_ time to follow up over the weekend. |
| 00:11.57 | Sienna | but im not bitter.... |
| 00:12.17 | prpplague | hehe |
| 00:12.24 | landley | Sienna: tax dollars? |
| 00:12.38 | Sienna | you missed the part where i work defense ;D |
| 00:12.47 | landley | I'm currently doing a contract for a "seismic acquisition services" company, which means oil exploration. |
| 00:12.53 | landley | My father works defense. |
| 00:12.56 | landley | Not going there. |
| 00:13.08 | Sienna | i want out... i am so stifled here |
| 00:13.08 | landley | My grandfather spent something like 40 years trying to get _OUT_ of the NSA. |
| 00:13.42 | landley | (He did crypto during world war II, then they threatened to draft him for the korean war unless he volunteered to reenlist to join this new organization they were forming...) |
| 00:13.51 | Sienna | i really want to do R&D for a while... until I have enough money saved to become a full time student and then professor |
| 00:13.56 | landley | has devoutly avoided going there. |
| 00:14.01 | Sienna | that sucks landley ;( |
| 00:14.08 | landley | Sienna: I have a perennial flirtation with graduate school. |
| 00:14.15 | landley | I want to teach at a community college, which requires a master's. |
| 00:14.28 | landley | But it's VERY hard to take ivory tower academia seriously after spending a while actually doing something. |
| 00:14.50 | Sienna | I want to be a professor... they don't teach! They get grants and do research and publish |
| 00:14.57 | Sienna | their TAs teach :D |
| 00:15.06 | landley | So you're optimizing databases based on the old IBM R-series. Streaming records from disk one at a time and doing joins that go straight back to disk, because you can't hold the tables in memory. |
| 00:15.15 | landley | That stopped being true... oh, about 2003. They use in memory databases now. |
| 00:15.23 | landley | Your ENTIRE THEORY OF OPERATION IS OBSOLETE! |
| 00:15.39 | landley | Yes, in 2005 I had a course on optimization techniques for something you simmply don't want to _do_ anymore. |
| 00:15.55 | landley | Sienna: too much academic infighting, publish or perish, fighting for tenure... |
| 00:15.57 | Sienna | you make me glad i skipped the database classes |
| 00:16.02 | landley | Community colleges haven't got that. |
| 00:16.07 | landley | Sienna: oh there were tons of those. |
| 00:16.23 | Sienna | <- CS degree, specializing in AI, minor specialty in HCI |
| 00:16.25 | landley | The worst was a symmetrical algorithms class that had nothing to do with programming SMP. |
| 00:16.44 | landley | "Assuming a computer with an infinite number of processors, which can access every memory location in 1 clock cycle, how do you program..." |
| 00:16.52 | landley | CANNOT BE BUILT. |
| 00:16.57 | landley | Laws of physics. Speed of light. |
| 00:17.02 | ali_as_ | I thought AI died when they started using object oriented prolog. |
| 00:17.03 | Sienna | its a model! |
| 00:17.12 | landley | I'd excuse them for having started the research in the 1970's, but they needed to get one of grace hoppeer's nanoseconds back then! |
| 00:17.20 | Sienna | just like a tape machine with an infinite tape |
| 00:17.43 | landley | No, in this case they had five different theoretical models about what such a computer might behave like, and they were literally waiting for people to build them. |
| 00:17.58 | Sienna | ali_as_, AI is never going to die... just like it is never going to succeed. Everytime something is happened, they change the definition |
| 00:18.05 | landley | The professor started studying the topic back before signal propogation became the obvious limiting factor on hardware design. |
| 00:18.25 | landley | Sienna: in their defense, every time they succeed at something it's no longer AI. |
| 00:18.27 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 00:18.32 | landley | "Speech recognition? That's not AI, we know how to do that." |
| 00:18.35 | Sienna | hey Dale |
| 00:18.37 | landley | If we know how to do it, it's not AI. |
| 00:18.49 | Sienna | depends on how you define AI landley |
| 00:18.51 | landley | Nah, I think the discipline was doomed by lithp. |
| 00:18.52 | ali_as_ | In the 70's and early 80's AI seemed to be going a million miles an hour, all they needed was more computing power. Now they have it, and it goes nowhere. |
| 00:18.58 | SpeedEvil | 'Robot overlords crushing humanity' Not AI - we know how to do that. |
| 00:19.06 | landley | ali_as_: The MIT media lab took over from the AI lab. |
| 00:19.15 | landley | The media lab is a marketing organization. The AI lab was engineering. |
| 00:20.02 | ali_as_ | Prolog is evil. OOP Prolog must be satan incarnate. |
| 00:20.16 | Sienna | 1000 years ago, someone who encountered a motion detector would have thought it was intelligent. But we don't, because we understand the principles behind it. That is the fundemental problem with how AI is percieved. We DO make strides in it, just others don't see it because its understandable |
| 00:20.19 | landley | Prolog is a standard declarative language. |
| 00:20.23 | landley | Sure they're evil, but so is make. |
| 00:20.30 | landley | Make combines declarative and imperative in one language. |
| 00:20.34 | landley | That's what I really object to. |
| 00:20.36 | landley | PICK ONE! |
| 00:21.12 | ali_as_ | Prolog is evil because it is designed to work backwards and to hell with the computing power or algorthyms needed to solve those problems.... |
| 00:21.15 | landley | Sienna: if they can make a computer learn, it'll get bored. (They go together.) If a machine gets bored with its assigned task, it stops being the useful slave we expect. |
| 00:21.27 | landley | Certain built in limitations with robbie the robot. |
| 00:21.36 | SpeedEvil | landley: unless you can flash it back to the original version seamlessly. |
| 00:21.50 | ali_as_ | Nooo, we set the first computer designing a better computer. |
| 00:21.59 | Sienna | I don't want to make a slave. |
| 00:22.18 | landley | I'm not participating in this particular discussion, have fun. |
| 00:22.21 | Sienna | Nor do I neccesary define AI as the 'learning computer' |
| 00:22.23 | landley | Been there, argued that... |
| 00:22.37 | ali_as_ | Is a PC a slave by your definition? |
| 00:22.44 | Sienna | oh, but you haven't argued it with me! *pouts* |
| 00:23.20 | landley | Sienna: maybe later. |
| 00:23.27 | prpplague | Sienna have you looked at the nail board yet? |
| 00:23.29 | landley | I hang out in this channel a lot. :) |
| 00:23.47 | Sienna | i saw a picture prpplague, but i didn't see a spec? Or did I? hold on |
| 00:25.09 | landley | Sienna: oddly enough, one of the best treatments I've seen of the AI topic is the book "Virtual Girl", by Amy Thompson. |
| 00:25.16 | landley | Unfortunately, you have to get past the HIDEOUS cover they put on it. |
| 00:25.18 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/Nail_Board |
| 00:25.29 | landley | A really, really stupid cover that has nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of the book... |
| 00:25.33 | Sienna | Yeah your wiki sucks navigation wise... maybe I could help there |
| 00:25.38 | *** join/#edev chouimat|away (n=dieu@r2351064.cidc.net) |
| 00:25.45 | Sienna | and thanks landley, will look it up! |
| 00:25.48 | landley | Sienna: i gave up on the wiki and started writing new docs. |
| 00:26.04 | Sienna | prpplague, on the nail, my biggest complaint is the lack of mounting provisions |
| 00:26.09 | landley | Alas, I it predates me having hardware to play with, and I haven't had time to put into it in weeks. http://landley.net/thyme.html |
| 00:26.21 | prpplague | Sienna yea the wiki is maintained by complete embedded geeks like me |
| 00:26.31 | prpplague | Sienna so it tends to meander |
| 00:26.43 | landley | is still working on my OLS paper about documentation. |
| 00:26.45 | prpplague | Sienna yea we've already corrected that |
| 00:27.03 | landley | I have about the first 40% written, http://landley.net/ols/ols2008/paper.html. |
| 00:27.16 | prpplague | Sienna we've added small screw holes on each side of connector on both ends |
| 00:27.19 | landley | Documenation is a hobby of mine. :) |
| 00:27.31 | Sienna | i see landley... wow |
| 00:27.36 | landley | Mounting provisions? |
| 00:27.40 | prpplague | Sienna note, thats why we got landley involved |
| 00:27.45 | prpplague | landley hehe screw holes |
| 00:27.54 | landley | Yes, I got that. What was the problem being solved? |
| 00:27.59 | RobotGuy | Hi Sienna. |
| 00:28.10 | Sienna | prpplague, what did you do, extend the PCB past the current dimensions? |
| 00:28.18 | landley | Bolting the nail board to an existing piece of hardware? |
| 00:28.25 | prpplague | landley some hardware people like to mount the stuff in their own case or in a special condition, i.e. in the back of server case |
| 00:28.54 | Sienna | server case!? HAHA! Try mobile walking robot! servers are so boring :P |
| 00:29.34 | landley | Ah, this explains why you know robotguy then. :) |
| 00:29.41 | prpplague | Sienna yea a 0.05" on each end, it was done for two reasons, the connectors needed a little more support and we wanted to add the screw holes |
| 00:29.54 | prpplague | Sienna it doesn't really affect the overall length of the board |
| 00:30.03 | prpplague | Sienna the connectors didn't move |
| 00:30.28 | Sienna | do you have an interface document, that has dimensions, hole locations, and their relations to the 40 pins and the 2x10? |
| 00:30.40 | Sienna | if so, I can look if that will fit for me. |
| 00:30.56 | Sienna | (i don't mind designing a laser cut adapter if I need too* |
| 00:31.14 | prpplague | Sienna sorry not at the momment, the pc is 5.1" long |
| 00:31.22 | RobotGuy | I/m just a figment of Sienna's imagination. |
| 00:31.40 | landley | RobotGuy: I'll take your word for it. |
| 00:31.51 | Sienna | http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=180&catid=member&imageuser=1685 |
| 00:31.56 | Sienna | my target platform |
| 00:32.12 | landley | A grid bug! |
| 00:32.18 | ali_as_ | You'd take the word of a figment of someone else's imagination? |
| 00:32.28 | landley | ali_as_: all the time. |
| 00:32.48 | RobotGuy | Sienna and I are on opposite coasts |
| 00:32.59 | prpplague | Sienna the nail isn't really designed for bot operations |
| 00:33.04 | Sienna | i know |
| 00:33.12 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Neither is the Carrier Board. :) |
| 00:33.13 | Sienna | but its a hellofalot smaller then the carrier board |
| 00:33.21 | Sienna | are nails available? |
| 00:33.29 | prpplague | Sienna just finishing beta |
| 00:33.34 | landley | prpplague: I dont' see why nail wouldn't work... |
| 00:33.36 | RobotGuy | I finally got the right wire to do prototyping with - #30 solid conductor. |
| 00:33.41 | landley | Especially if you use the smaller USB adapter. |
| 00:33.58 | landley | After all, they use USB internally inside linksys for the second network interface... |
| 00:34.22 | RobotGuy | I wonder what I will find if I disassemble my WRT54GS |
| 00:34.28 | prpplague | landley what are you gonna connect the usb connection to? |
| 00:34.29 | Sienna | prpplague, well, I would still be interested in the RDP! |
| 00:34.30 | landley | RobotGuy: depends on the production run. |
| 00:34.33 | Sienna | nail or no nail |
| 00:34.36 | landley | They shift their hardware around more than Dell does. |
| 00:34.40 | landley | Some of them were arm, some were mips... |
| 00:34.50 | landley | RDP? |
| 00:34.52 | RobotGuy | landley: ?? |
| 00:35.07 | Sienna | he was talking about the Linksys |
| 00:35.17 | ali_as_ | http://wiki.openwrt.org/TableOfHardware |
| 00:35.19 | RobotGuy | landley: Hammer-RDP - the new robotics oriented board. |
| 00:35.24 | Sienna | landley, RDP = Robotic Development Platform |
| 00:35.33 | Sienna | <- Queen of TLAs |
| 00:35.36 | landley | ah. |
| 00:35.48 | RobotGuy | I'm sure we can all find many more uses for such a board though. |
| 00:35.51 | Sienna | basically, me and RobotGuy pleading TCT for a new board :P |
| 00:36.19 | *** join/#edev Shingoshi (n=shingosh@c-67-169-195-234.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 00:36.22 | prpplague | Sienna well my boss will be doing the rdp, i'm just collecting info for him, robotics isn't my cup of tea |
| 00:36.26 | Sienna | hello Shingoshi |
| 00:36.37 | RobotGuy | Sienna: I've been trying to get others involved. This might put a crimp in the process. |
| 00:36.45 | prpplague | landley nail is mainly design to have a host pc to plug into |
| 00:36.45 | Sienna | ? |
| 00:36.58 | Sienna | what would crimpt hte process? |
| 00:36.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have not heard from the boss dude yet. |
| 00:37.09 | landley | ali_as: specifically, http://wiki.openwrt.org/TableOfHardware#line-324 |
| 00:37.09 | prpplague | RobotGuy ? |
| 00:37.28 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Not enough people showing interest in the Hammer-RDP. |
| 00:37.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy he's been pretty busy |
| 00:37.45 | prpplague | RobotGuy RDP is going to happen |
| 00:37.46 | landley | Sienna: griping at them seems to be more effective. |
| 00:37.49 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Not surprised. Just as well, the way my weeks have been going lately. |
| 00:37.56 | landley | I griped at them and the designed the nail board. :) |
| 00:37.59 | Sienna | well, fine. if they don't build it, i guess I will just have to damn well learn to use Eagle |
| 00:38.04 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I hope so! |
| 00:38.24 | Sienna | and if they do, well, then I can beam cause i didn't have to learn eagle ;P |
| 00:38.26 | landley | prpplague: you can plug nail into a USB travel charger, once it's properly set up. |
| 00:38.32 | prpplague | Sienna RDP is getting designed, we mainly just want to find out what people want first |
| 00:38.41 | Sienna | hugs prpplague |
| 00:38.42 | landley | That's part of the reason for the usb port on the _other_ end too. :) |
| 00:38.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Sienna is very smart. Listen to her. |
| 00:39.04 | SpeedEvil | what is RDP? |
| 00:39.08 | prpplague | landley yea, you could do that, but the nail uses a little too much power for a robotics |
| 00:39.12 | RobotGuy | Robotics Development Platform |
| 00:39.17 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 00:39.31 | landley | prpplague: is this inherent in the USB-ness? |
| 00:39.34 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:39.36 | SpeedEvil | oops |
| 00:39.49 | landley | (The downstream usb should be completely powered down when not in use, I'd think. Or at least when the driver isn't loaded...) |
| 00:39.58 | landley | Upstream you've got the usb interface itself and the hub chip. |
| 00:40.09 | prpplague | landley not entirely, but the nail was designed with many assumtions about power usage |
| 00:40.10 | landley | I guess the jtag is powered too, no way to switch that off when not in use is there? |
| 00:40.22 | prpplague | landley when you operate on batteries, there are a whole different set of rules |
| 00:40.33 | landley | prpplague: "running from a laptop that might be on battery, yet you want to plug in a downstream USB device anyway"? |
| 00:40.36 | RobotGuy | SpeedEvil: It's something I suggested as a new product when I first found out about Hammer. It was a no brainer and obvious direction for hammer from my perspective, but has many other potential uses also. |
| 00:40.42 | landley | Laptops. They operate on batteries. |
| 00:40.53 | landley | I brought this up more than once. Fairly certain... |
| 00:41.14 | landley | Yay dedicated robotics board if that's better for them... |
| 00:41.23 | prpplague | landley indeed, however, the USB does have very specific power definitions |
| 00:41.52 | Sienna | anything that can operate under the 500mA limit of a USB port, can certainly work on a robot |
| 00:42.05 | Sienna | my servos will draw more then that at rest! |
| 00:42.13 | landley | Sienna: worse than that, we have to take our upstream USB power and provide as much of it as possible to the downstream USB device. |
| 00:42.27 | landley | Nail has a USB port at each end, and the one at the far end is also powered by the laptop. |
| 00:42.39 | Sienna | ok, so what are you expected to plug in? |
| 00:42.43 | prpplague | landley well, i can look at the schematic, and see if there is a way to bypass some of the items |
| 00:42.45 | landley | So we've got to try to keep the nail's own power usage down to about 150mA was it? |
| 00:42.56 | Sienna | I am wondering what you mean to do with a smart usb device |
| 00:43.01 | prpplague | landley yea |
| 00:43.03 | RobotGuy | landley: RDP need not be just for robotics, and I see many areas a board such as it can be used. I won't be using them just on robots. :) |
| 00:43.22 | SpeedEvil | Is there a wiki or something fo r this hypothetical board? |
| 00:43.23 | landley | RobotGuy: I'm thinking economies of ccale and getting production costs down. |
| 00:43.24 | landley | scale |
| 00:43.33 | landley | Not just for hammer, but for carriers as well. |
| 00:43.35 | prpplague | landley i guess i'm on an odd end, since i'm used to dealing with 50mA for a mobile device |
| 00:43.43 | landley | Still, if nail isn't a good fit for robotics, it's not a good fit... |
| 00:43.55 | landley | prpplague: that's cell phone. |
| 00:43.59 | prpplague | SpeedEvil not, its just discussing at the momment |
| 00:44.01 | landley | Nail ain't fitting in a cell phone. |
| 00:44.02 | RobotGuy | landley: It's way to early to think about that for me. The more uses, the more interest, the more areas it can be marketed in. |
| 00:44.21 | prpplague | landley sorry i meant, i'm used to the requirement at AML for designing handheld devices |
| 00:44.25 | landley | I think 150mA is reasonable for any device that's going to also have an electric motor in it. |
| 00:44.35 | RobotGuy | landley: I don't think we've been talking about Nail Board for robotics. |
| 00:44.46 | prpplague | RobotGuy actually Sienna is |
| 00:44.52 | Sienna | landley, the main reason it wouldn't be good is simple because it is long and skinny, wheras most robot board are 2.3" x 3" |
| 00:44.55 | landley | is, alas, not close to an expert on what the needs of robotics are. |
| 00:44.57 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Ah, OK. |
| 00:45.06 | landley | Sienna: I tried to make 'em double layer the thing. |
| 00:45.14 | Sienna | other than that, it meets most of my other specs, such as access to all 40 pins |
| 00:45.24 | landley | If they could reduce the length they wouldn't need the tether cable. |
| 00:45.40 | landley | Right now, the tether cable is there to avoid having the long skinny lever break the USB socket its plugged into when you bump it. |
| 00:46.29 | prpplague | landley in order to double layer it we'd have to do away with alot of the hardware hack features such as the 40 pin headers |
| 00:46.29 | SpeedEvil | I want a stubby USB socket |
| 00:46.32 | landley | If nothing else, nail is a reasonable development platform for hammer and then you can deploy on a different hammer in the robot. |
| 00:46.37 | landley | That's what I was aiming at. |
| 00:46.52 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 00:46.53 | SpeedEvil | plug |
| 00:46.58 | RobotGuy | landley: I'm no where near an expert on what robotics needs either. I just believe very strongly in the Hammer-RDP based on other products I have seen and actually used. |
| 00:47.01 | SpeedEvil | One without that massive lever-arm. |
| 00:47.02 | landley | pulls out nail board and pops it out of the cylinder to look at it... |
| 00:47.19 | Sienna | i still vote for calling the RDP "screw" |
| 00:47.34 | prpplague | Sienna i'll suggest it to the boss |
| 00:48.03 | RobotGuy | bites his tongue |
| 00:48.12 | ali_as_ | Maybe 'spine' would be better for a robot intended board. |
| 00:48.14 | Sienna | i wasn't being dirty! |
| 00:48.15 | prpplague | Sienna introducing the new "Screw-U" from tincantools |
| 00:48.29 | Sienna | men! always assuming the worst |
| 00:48.30 | prpplague | jokes |
| 00:48.31 | landley | prpplague: between the jtag connector and the "upstream" USB is a lump of circuitry that seems like it could be on the other side of the board. |
| 00:48.43 | landley | Between the expansion connector and the other USB there's a little too. |
| 00:48.52 | Sienna | but spine doesn't go with the hammer! |
| 00:49.06 | RobotGuy | Sienna: I know. You would never be that way. I know there are lots of different types of hammers, but can't think of any now. |
| 00:49.13 | landley | Possibly if ose two connectors themselves were turned sideways and poked out of the other side of the board... |
| 00:49.27 | Sienna | oo! How about "Mallet"? |
| 00:49.33 | prpplague | landley if we get rid of the 40-pin thru holes, we can place all the components on the back side and shorten it down to around 3.25" |
| 00:49.41 | Sienna | that doesn't have any dirty connotations... right? |
| 00:50.02 | landley | Sienna: somebody properly motivated can find dirty connotations in complete silence. |
| 00:50.04 | ali_as_ | But the hammer theme doesn't exacly go with robot or lifeform... |
| 00:50.19 | RobotGuy | ali_as_: True. |
| 00:50.23 | landley | ali_as_: Thor. |
| 00:50.25 | landley | There's a hammer theme. |
| 00:50.28 | Sienna | ok fine... rdp it is. |
| 00:50.36 | Sienna | landley, i like! |
| 00:50.40 | Sienna | thats a good one |
| 00:50.42 | ali_as_ | If it's going to apeal to robot builders, and not specifically people that know about tincantools..... |
| 00:51.10 | ali_as_ | Thor is a bloody good suggestion. |
| 00:51.14 | RobotGuy | RDP works for me, at least for now, but I would like it to end up with a name that is not specific to any given dicipline - more generic in nature. |
| 00:51.22 | prpplague | landley oh oh i like that one |
| 00:51.35 | landley | prpplague: can the 40 pin through holes be turned into more sticky-up pins? |
| 00:51.47 | landley | And would that annoy the hardware geeks who like to play with it? |
| 00:51.53 | landley | prpplague: feel free to use it. :) |
| 00:52.06 | RobotGuy | My imagination seems to be on an extended hiatus. |
| 00:52.31 | prpplague | landley up or down they make the layout a problem |
| 00:52.38 | Sienna | is the edge of the hammer less then .05" from the center of the pins? |
| 00:52.41 | prpplague | landley they'd have to go away to make it smaller |
| 00:52.44 | landley | And if Thor is too trademark-squashed, you can always do Mjolnir. Just don't expect anybody to be able to spell it. |
| 00:52.56 | SpeedEvil | landley: you need the special keyboard! |
| 00:53.09 | prpplague | Sienna no |
| 00:53.16 | SpeedEvil | Plus - Mjolnir would never clear EMC tests. |
| 00:53.17 | Sienna | darn, there goes that idea |
| 00:53.53 | landley | Sienna: keep in mind that the _reason_ it's more than .05" from the center of the pins is primarily due to the 40 pin through holes. |
| 00:54.08 | landley | If they _were_ removed, it coudl get thinner. |
| 00:54.13 | RobotGuy | How about just Hammer Computing Development Platform? Hammer-CDP. |
| 00:54.16 | landley | What was your idea? |
| 00:54.34 | landley | I still think "time" needs to be worked into a hammer theme somehow... |
| 00:54.46 | landley | But that could be the RTC module. |
| 00:54.53 | Sienna | i was just thinking if they could use a double row SMD .1" header, to plug the hammer into, with enough clearence to also plug wires / other .1" modules into beyond it. |
| 00:55.13 | RobotGuy | Most of the good initial names are already taken in one way or another. |
| 00:55.13 | landley | prpplague: does that sound like a good idea? (I understood none of it.) |
| 00:55.32 | Sienna | s/header/socket |
| 00:55.32 | Shingoshi | Hi Sienna |
| 00:55.55 | prpplague | yea thats doable but it would be very difficult and pretty costly |
| 00:56.12 | RobotGuy | Sienna: I prefer to have an easy replaced module used, even if it is a bit large for an RDP or CDP. |
| 00:56.58 | Sienna | I still have an image in my head for what I personally want on my bot... maybe one day I will have to learn eagle anyway |
| 00:57.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy we are still talking about the hammer right now |
| 00:57.09 | RobotGuy | Sienna: I think it all depends on how much the RDP ends up costing though. If the RDP can be manufactured for the same cost as the Hammer Board, then I have no issue. |
| 00:57.10 | Sienna | oh, we are talking the Hammer itself!? |
| 00:57.13 | prpplague | Sienna draw up a sketch |
| 00:57.16 | landley | What _is_ a double row SMD .1% header with clearance to plug wires or other modules into? |
| 00:57.24 | prpplague | Sienna sorry i meant nail |
| 00:57.43 | landley | The general assumption is that hammer should be as mass produced as possible. |
| 00:57.59 | landley | Although there are 3-4 possible memory sizes for it, so that might be a touch squishy. :) |
| 00:58.14 | landley | (You can put more than 32m on a hammer, but only by sourcing different chips before you manufacture it.) |
| 00:58.17 | RobotGuy | I think it would be cool to have RDP be an over sized hammer board module, but then I would be tempted to want additional functions available. |
| 00:58.31 | Sienna | prpplague, i can, but my picture was for the RDP |
| 00:58.50 | prpplague | landley basically its just a header that is has the pins .1" apart and can be soldered to the top of the board without a hole thru the board |
| 00:58.56 | prpplague | Sienna thats fine |
| 00:58.56 | ali_as_ | Nite all. |
| 00:58.58 | landley | The hammer module can fit in multiple carriers. |
| 00:59.00 | prpplague | Sienna thats what we need |
| 00:59.01 | Sienna | night ali_as_ |
| 00:59.19 | prpplague | Sienna the RDP will use a Hammer board |
| 00:59.24 | Sienna | i know |
| 00:59.31 | prpplague | oh ok |
| 00:59.39 | prpplague | Sienna too many conversations, hehe |
| 00:59.51 | Sienna | :D |
| 00:59.53 | prpplague | Sienna draw a sketch of what you want, and drop me an email with it |
| 00:59.59 | prpplague | Sienna dave123_aml@yahoo.com |
| 01:00.13 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Could I see too please? |
| 01:00.32 | Sienna | dale, do i have your emal? |
| 01:00.35 | Sienna | i* |
| 01:00.39 | RobotGuy | Maybe just post it on the forums. |
| 01:00.58 | RobotGuy | Sienna: You have e-mailed me. robotguy@hybotics.com |
| 01:01.00 | Sienna | prpplague, can your forum host imaged? |
| 01:01.06 | Sienna | oh thats right! I did |
| 01:01.07 | landley | prpplague: the hammer _does_ have pins coming out of the top of the board. |
| 01:01.08 | prpplague | Sienna dale's email is ibreakbuildroot@hybotics.com |
| 01:01.09 | Sienna | duh! |
| 01:01.14 | landley | Why are these insufficient pins? |
| 01:01.14 | Sienna | haha! |
| 01:01.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That's me alright! |
| 01:01.42 | landley | who's Dale? |
| 01:01.43 | prpplague | landley only as they are whats left of soldering in the ones from the bottom |
| 01:01.49 | prpplague | points to RobotGuy |
| 01:02.06 | RobotGuy | landley: Just some cranky old fart who fancies himself a robot designer/builder. |
| 01:02.25 | landley | RobotGuy: could you please be a little more vague? |
| 01:02.27 | landley | prpplague: oh. |
| 01:02.38 | RobotGuy | <-- Dale |
| 01:02.47 | landley | prpplague: yes, but they're there. |
| 01:02.51 | Sienna | if my trial version of inventor fucking worked, this would be easier.... *sigh* |
| 01:02.59 | landley | I take it connecting something to the _top_ of the hammer board is tricksy? |
| 01:03.19 | RobotGuy | Sienna: That's why I bought Alibre Design Expert, but I know it does not work for you. :( |
| 01:03.26 | landley | Ok, I call shenanigans. |
| 01:03.45 | landley | You make two "men" remarks about innuendo, then use explicit profanity. |
| 01:03.50 | landley | Dude: consistency. |
| 01:04.00 | RobotGuy | Sienna: is not a dude |
| 01:04.00 | Sienna | i am an enginner... i cuss ;P |
| 01:04.10 | landley | I am an engineer. I do not cuss. |
| 01:04.17 | Sienna | and i am hormonal |
| 01:04.23 | RobotGuy | covers his tender eyes |
| 01:04.25 | landley | I use elaborate descriptive imagery to threaten the equipment into submission. |
| 01:04.35 | landley | (I am a software person: I do percussive maintenance.) |
| 01:04.41 | landley | If it breaks, it needed fixing. |
| 01:04.45 | prpplague | Sienna your new here, so i'll give you a heads up |
| 01:04.52 | Sienna | no cussing? |
| 01:04.56 | prpplague | Sienna this channel is frequented by alot of people from work |
| 01:05.06 | landley | Nah, I'm not offended or anything. |
| 01:05.08 | prpplague | Sienna in order to keep the channel from being blocked by the corp types |
| 01:05.18 | prpplague | Sienna we have to keep the language down |
| 01:05.19 | landley | I was just calling shenanigans. |
| 01:05.20 | landley | I do that. |
| 01:05.22 | Sienna | got it, no cussing... i will watch the tounge |
| 01:05.38 | prpplague | Sienna its more of a practical matter |
| 01:05.52 | prpplague | Sienna in order to keep the channel available to guru's from work |
| 01:06.24 | Sienna | sorry... I just came from two days of user review... the vent factor is high! |
| 01:06.31 | landley | Entirely understood. |
| 01:06.38 | landley | My vent factor is often pegged. |
| 01:06.53 | landley | Now will somebody explain why connecting something to the pins on the _top_ of the hammer board is not feasible? |
| 01:06.54 | RobotGuy | was not the user Sienna was reviewing. :P |
| 01:07.01 | landley | (Heat problem?) |
| 01:07.22 | landley | I mean, it's already _got_ pins on the top for the little jtaggy parallel cable thing... |
| 01:07.31 | Sienna | user = Army types, and air worthiness types... *desK* |
| 01:07.33 | prpplague | landley sorry i'm not understanding? |
| 01:08.00 | landley | prpplague: the .05" thing mentioned earlier (which I still don't qutie understand) was too expensive. |
| 01:08.00 | prpplague | landley you mean connect to the pins from the top side of the hammer? |
| 01:08.07 | landley | I'm looking for other possible places to put the 40 pin through holes. |
| 01:08.14 | landley | prpplague: yes. |
| 01:08.22 | landley | To get the length down. |
| 01:08.26 | landley | With more vertical stacking. |
| 01:08.29 | prpplague | landley ahh ok , i think you are misunderstanding |
| 01:08.41 | prpplague | landley you see the 40-pin on each side of the hammer? |
| 01:08.41 | landley | The Society for Putting Thigngs On Top of Other Things. |
| 01:08.49 | landley | prpplague: misunderstanding is sort of a hobby with me. |
| 01:08.53 | landley | prpplague: yes. |
| 01:08.55 | SpeedEvil | I considered that. |
| 01:08.55 | prpplague | landley mine too |
| 01:09.02 | landley | The little holes for people to stick wires in if they're into that sort of thing. |
| 01:09.03 | SpeedEvil | Make the hammer pins turned pin IC sockets |
| 01:09.05 | prpplague | landley those are the ones that would need to go |
| 01:09.13 | SpeedEvil | then you just plug a board on top |
| 01:09.21 | RobotGuy | landley: Assuming for now that we get the stacking board arrangemet we (currently just Sienna and I) are asking for, we don't want Hammer to get taller. |
| 01:09.26 | landley | prpplague: yes. Why can't they be moved on _top_ of the hammer module? |
| 01:09.38 | SpeedEvil | however, you need to work out some sort of parallel bus implemented over the existing pins. |
| 01:09.45 | prpplague | landley no real place to connect, those pins are too short |
| 01:10.28 | RobotGuy | landley: That would be useful for use with a solderless breadboard, for sure! |
| 01:11.02 | prpplague | landley if you want it to be small and use it for software dev we can do that |
| 01:11.03 | landley | prplaguge: come at them from the side, maybe? |
| 01:11.10 | prpplague | landley we can make it very very small |
| 01:11.15 | RobotGuy | I don't think I want to use a module as expensive as Hammer Board on a bread board though. I'd rather have on a carrier board or something like RDP. |
| 01:11.19 | landley | do which? what? (me got lost again...) |
| 01:11.28 | prpplague | landley but to do that, you loose the hardware hobbist capability |
| 01:11.38 | SpeedEvil | wants QFN40 hammer. |
| 01:11.45 | landley | Hardware hobbyists need the little holes, right? |
| 01:11.51 | prpplague | landley yea |
| 01:11.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: By definition, that could include a lot of robotics folks too. |
| 01:12.12 | SpeedEvil | wanders off to play with conductive epoxy. |
| 01:12.16 | landley | And there's no easy way to fit something on top of the hammer that does nothing but fit onto the top pin stubs and provide the little holes? |
| 01:12.16 | prpplague | RobotGuy again, the nail isn't targeted to that |
| 01:12.29 | prpplague | landley nope |
| 01:12.31 | RobotGuy | I don't quite understand Jon's feedback on the RDP thread. |
| 01:12.36 | prpplague | landley not without compromising it |
| 01:12.36 | landley | prpplague: why isn't the nail targeted for that? |
| 01:12.42 | landley | Compromising? |
| 01:12.55 | landley | Is there a mailing list I should be subscribed to? |
| 01:12.56 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I know, wasn't talking about nail. I'll just be quiet for awhile. |
| 01:12.57 | prpplague | landley making it non modular |
| 01:12.57 | landley | (Thread?) |
| 01:13.08 | landley | prpplague: you can't have a two part carrier? |
| 01:13.08 | prpplague | landley there is a thread about the rdp |
| 01:13.15 | prpplague | landley on the tct forum |
| 01:13.24 | landley | Ah, web forums. |
| 01:13.43 | landley | The no-man's-land between mailing lists and IRC. |
| 01:13.52 | Sienna | visio!! Thats how i can draw an iso image! |
| 01:14.16 | Sienna | you all have been spared my drawing by hand skills ;D |
| 01:14.17 | landley | prpplague: modifying hammer isn't an option. Check. |
| 01:14.22 | prpplague | landley yea i looked at a whole set of configurations |
| 01:14.28 | landley | Hammer has little short pins off the top. |
| 01:14.39 | prpplague | landley we can make it very small and targeted strictly for software dev |
| 01:14.56 | prpplague | landley or we can make it as is, and have some support for both |
| 01:15.17 | landley | A boardlet to provide the 40 little holes connected to these little short pins off the top is either too expensive or not electrically/physically feasible. |
| 01:15.25 | landley | prpplague: software dev is fine with it as is. |
| 01:15.31 | landley | It's hardware guys who want it smaller. |
| 01:15.31 | prpplague | landley too expensive |
| 01:15.38 | landley | We can live with the tether USB cable. |
| 01:15.51 | prpplague | landley who? |
| 01:15.56 | landley | I'm trying to think of a way to let the robotics guys with space constraints potentially use a nail variant. |
| 01:16.04 | prpplague | landley ooooh |
| 01:16.15 | prpplague | landley no we have a Robotics board specific for them |
| 01:16.24 | landley | Yup. |
| 01:16.26 | prpplague | landley they have a whole different set of needs |
| 01:16.42 | landley | It would be nice if one carrier could serve both purposes and get better economies of scale. |
| 01:16.47 | landley | prpplague: not _that_ different. |
| 01:16.51 | landley | But possibly different enough. |
| 01:16.57 | prpplague | landley you;d be surprised |
| 01:17.04 | prpplague | landley most of the robotics is done at +5v |
| 01:17.10 | landley | Having met the Austin Robotics Group, no, I probably wouldn't. |
| 01:17.19 | prpplague | landley which means all of the i/o has to be buffered from the native +3.3v |
| 01:17.21 | RobotGuy | landley: Form factor is a BIG area of concern for robotics. Sienna, did you link your cute tripod? |
| 01:17.35 | prpplague | RobotGuy yea Sienna did |
| 01:18.05 | landley | The robotics guys _I_ know would take something like nail and wire it up to power via the 40 holes, and duct tape it to the side of a metal bar, with the whole thing running of a scrounged car battery. |
| 01:18.39 | prpplague | landley hehe, yea, they'd still need the +5v buffering |
| 01:18.52 | RobotGuy | landley: Here is another robot where size of the controller board definitely matters: http://www.lynxmotion.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=97 |
| 01:19.34 | landley | RobotGUy: for that you probably don't want an off-the-shelf carrier board. |
| 01:19.48 | RobotGuy | landley: That's the whole reason for the RDP. |
| 01:19.57 | RobotGuy | Or at least ONE of the reasons for it. |
| 01:20.02 | landley | The RDP _is_ an off-the-shelf carrier board, isn't it? |
| 01:20.07 | landley | It's going to be a _new_ one, but still... |
| 01:20.11 | landley | shrugs. |
| 01:20.26 | landley | Robotics is far enough into "not my area" territory I'm happy to admit defeat here. |
| 01:20.34 | *** mode/#edev [+o Mirell] by ChanServ |
| 01:20.38 | landley | Now I have to figure out how to get my nail board back into its little cylinder... |
| 01:20.39 | prpplague | landley hehe |
| 01:20.42 | RobotGuy | landley: It's size and form that are truely different, along with other requirements not needed in a lot of areas. |
| 01:20.58 | prpplague | landley yea, i'm still trying to grasp some of the requirements |
| 01:21.02 | RobotGuy | I didn't even ask for an MMC/SD slot. |
| 01:22.02 | landley | What do the robotics guys need that _isn't_ just wiring the hammer module directly into their robot? |
| 01:22.09 | prpplague | landley right now it doesn't cost us much to do several different designs, if we find that we can consolidate we can do a fresh design combining the features |
| 01:22.10 | SpeedEvil | Mor IO |
| 01:22.12 | RobotGuy | landley: For instance, we use many 5V things like sensors for checking range from obstacles, small cameras, color checking, etc. |
| 01:22.21 | SpeedEvil | a PWM module would be nice. |
| 01:22.25 | prpplague | landley http://www.lynxmotion.com/images/jpg/abb02.jpg |
| 01:22.29 | prpplague | landley have a look at that |
| 01:22.45 | prpplague | landley thats basically what the robotics folks want |
| 01:22.45 | SpeedEvil | Many robots need to run 6 or more servos. These want 1-3ms pulses every 20ms. |
| 01:23.18 | RobotGuy | SpeedEvil: For that we use controllers like the Lynxmotion SSC-32 which can control up to 32 servos. |
| 01:23.22 | SpeedEvil | doing this in software is hard - as you need to keep the pulses accurate to .5% or so or they start to use lots of current as they try to keep seeking to microscopically diffeent positions. |
| 01:23.38 | RobotGuy | I don't even deal with servo control directly off a micro - I go right to the SSC-32. |
| 01:24.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy i don't see any post by jon on the forum |
| 01:24.33 | RobotGuy | SpeedEvil: It's actually 0.5 to 2.5 ms in most cases for servo pulses. |
| 01:24.43 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Last one in the RDP thread I believe |
| 01:25.08 | SpeedEvil | RobotGuy: meh |
| 01:25.23 | landley | prpplague: I point out that module is using a smaller chip than the hammer module. :) |
| 01:25.44 | RobotGuy | In reality we only use a +/- 90 degree range of travel on servos. |
| 01:26.17 | RobotGuy | landley: It's also very much less powerful than Hammer. |
| 01:26.18 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:26.22 | prpplague | that was weird |
| 01:26.31 | prpplague | phone range and i lost my net connection |
| 01:26.32 | prpplague | :( |
| 01:26.45 | RobotGuy | prpplague: PBX related? |
| 01:26.45 | prpplague | landley http://www.lynxmotion.com/images/jpg/abb02.jpg |
| 01:26.50 | prpplague | RobotGuy i don't see any post by jon on the forum |
| 01:27.01 | prpplague | landley right now it doesn't cost us much to do several different designs, if we find that we can consolidate we can do a fresh design combining the features |
| 01:27.08 | prpplague | landley thats basically what the robotics folks want |
| 01:27.30 | ds2 | wow busy channel today |
| 01:27.35 | landley | prpplague: the people who made that used a smaller central module than the hammer. :) |
| 01:28.08 | landley | prpplague: how much of the cost of a nail is the carrier board/case/cable etc, and how much is the hammer module? |
| 01:28.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: OK, the very last post on page 1. |
| 01:28.14 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 01:28.34 | prpplague | landley they used the parallax stamp which is very very limited |
| 01:29.32 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have been using the Basic Micro Basic Atom 28-pin microcontroller. I also have used the Atom PRO, but I have several issues with the software used to build programs for that one. |
| 01:29.38 | ds2 | for what you get with a stamp, it seems like such a rip off |
| 01:29.53 | ds2 | raw PICs, and AVRs I can understand |
| 01:29.55 | RobotGuy | ds2: That's one reason I didn't use one. |
| 01:30.17 | landley | If the nail carrier is cheap relative to hammer, trying to encourage economy of scale on it doesn't help much. |
| 01:31.46 | *** join/#edev prpplague^2 (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:31.50 | prpplague^2 | grumbles |
| 01:32.15 | RobotGuy | kicks the PBX prpplague is connected to, even though it shouldn't affect internet. |
| 01:32.43 | landley | prpplague: dsl? |
| 01:32.48 | prpplague | landley yea |
| 01:32.51 | RobotGuy | is very glad his soldering iron has an automatic shut-off |
| 01:32.53 | landley | My condolences. |
| 01:32.53 | prpplague | landley pos |
| 01:33.12 | prpplague | landley anyway, yea they used the parallax stamp |
| 01:33.13 | RobotGuy | ACK, that would still probably go through the PBX then. |
| 01:33.17 | landley | Having DSL and land line phones is a bad combination. |
| 01:33.23 | RobotGuy | Got DSL filters installed? |
| 01:33.23 | prpplague | landley slightly smaller |
| 01:33.39 | landley | (Hey, ringing the phone puts 90 volts acrss this line to ring a physical _bell_. That won't screw up the data transmission, will it?) |
| 01:33.53 | prpplague | landley but the hammer is an order of univac to a p4 3ghz |
| 01:34.02 | prpplague | landley compared to the stamp |
| 01:34.18 | landley | prpplague: I'll ask the question that knocks you offline again: |
| 01:34.31 | landley | prpplague: how much of the cost of a nail is the carrier board/case/cable etc, and how much is the hammer module? |
| 01:34.46 | landley | If the nail carrier is cheap relative to hammer, trying to encourage economy of scale on it doesn't help much. |
| 01:35.07 | RobotGuy | feels Dejavu |
| 01:35.15 | prpplague | grabs the calculator |
| 01:35.28 | landley | grabs a soda... |
| 01:35.56 | prpplague | landley the carrier board is just 9% of the overall cost of the combined nail board |
| 01:36.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy i didn't see a post from job on the forum |
| 01:37.12 | landley | prpplague: ok, no point in trying to optimize that much then. :) |
| 01:37.19 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Look at page one of the RDP thread, last post is from JonHylands |
| 01:37.38 | prpplague | the hammer is where all the "hard stuff" is done |
| 01:37.52 | prpplague | items like the nail board are two layers and are pretty darn cheap |
| 01:38.15 | prpplague | looks |
| 01:38.30 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 01:38.36 | prpplague | landley which is the key to the hammer |
| 01:38.49 | prpplague | landley we can make a ton of special boards very cheaply |
| 01:39.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy ahh ok, found it |
| 01:39.32 | MonMotha | ah, making custom PCBs |
| 01:39.33 | MonMotha | costs as much to make 1 as 100 |
| 01:39.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy what part is in question? |
| 01:39.47 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't get the entire post and what he means. |
| 01:39.56 | prpplague | MonMotha exactly |
| 01:40.21 | prpplague | RobotGuy just showing off what he is doing with his hammer board with regards to robotics |
| 01:40.34 | RobotGuy | Oh, OK. |
| 01:40.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy btw did you get your jffs2 booting? |
| 01:40.54 | RobotGuy | Like what I am trying to do with my carrier board, but different. |
| 01:40.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: No |
| 01:41.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy whatcha stuck on? |
| 01:41.42 | landley | needs to find something dinner-like before everything closes. |
| 01:41.50 | landley | (Houston: it sucks.) |
| 01:41.59 | landley | Not exactly a motto to inspire the travel industry... |
| 01:42.37 | RobotGuy | prpplague: No it says "bad gzip magic numbers" and halts at boot |
| 01:42.50 | RobotGuy | s/No/Now/ |
| 01:43.10 | landley | RobotGuy: don't feed in a jffs2 as an initrd. |
| 01:43.12 | landley | That won't work. |
| 01:43.33 | RobotGuy | landley: I'm not - different config. |
| 01:43.53 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 01:43.56 | RobotGuy | landley: That's what the Kernel is telling me after it starts uncompressing. |
| 01:44.22 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:44.31 | prpplague | grumbles |
| 01:44.40 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 01:44.45 | prpplague | RobotGuy whatcha stuck on? |
| 01:44.56 | landley | After it starts uncompressing what? |
| 01:45.01 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I do not know. |
| 01:45.04 | landley | What point do your kernel messages get to? |
| 01:45.06 | RobotGuy | landley: The Kernel |
| 01:45.10 | landley | Can you pastebin 'em somewhere? |
| 01:45.22 | landley | prpplague: now you know how I fell with the darn coffee shop wireless... |
| 01:45.39 | prpplague | is wondering if his stepdaughter has a virus or bot on her windows pc |
| 01:46.00 | landley | If it's a windows PC, that's pretty much the default assumption, yes. |
| 01:46.06 | prpplague | seems to be alot of packets comming from he crappy winblows laptop |
| 01:46.09 | landley | Running windows == p0wn3d. |
| 01:46.15 | landley | It's just a question of how and by whom. |
| 01:46.29 | RobotGuy | http://www.pastebin.ca/968482 |
| 01:46.31 | landley | If all else fails, XP and up come with built in p0wn3d-ness by microsoft. |
| 01:46.57 | landley | RobotGuy: ok, that's an error message saying that apex truncated your kernel image. |
| 01:47.13 | landley | That would be my guess. |
| 01:47.28 | landley | That's the _initial_ kernel decompression. Waaaaay before anything having to do with jjfs2 kicks in. |
| 01:47.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy you've either not copied all of the kernel image to flash, or you've not copied it from flash to sdram, or you've overwritten it with something else |
| 01:47.44 | prpplague | RobotGuy boot up to apex prompt and do a printenv |
| 01:47.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy pastebin that |
| 01:48.00 | landley | At that point, the kernel hasn't even started executing C code yet, it's still in the assembly startup stuff. |
| 01:48.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy pastebin that |
| 01:49.37 | RobotGuy | http://www.pastebin.ca/968484 |
| 01:50.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy that looks correct |
| 01:50.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy how did you flash the new kernal image? |
| 01:50.50 | RobotGuy | My kernel may be a bit large. I can't seem to get it below 1.1 MB. |
| 01:51.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy lordy lordy |
| 01:51.02 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Using openocd |
| 01:51.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy ok |
| 01:51.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy now look at your pastebin for printenv |
| 01:51.26 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It was not a problem when using an initrd |
| 01:51.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy what is the value for your kernel copy? |
| 01:51.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy nor:256k+1024k |
| 01:52.04 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Not enough room for the kernel |
| 01:52.04 | prpplague | RobotGuy notice the 1024k |
| 01:52.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy your kernel should not be that big |
| 01:52.26 | prpplague | RobotGuy you have something turned on that shouldn't be |
| 01:52.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy why not use the default kernel config to start with? |
| 01:53.48 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That is for initrd. |
| 01:54.10 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You already looked at my kernel config |
| 01:54.40 | prpplague | RobotGuy there is no difference |
| 01:54.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy no changes in the kernel |
| 01:55.23 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't remember if I changed anything. I don't think so other than to turn those two things on. |
| 01:55.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy everything is configured already for a jffs2 rootfs |
| 01:56.41 | Sienna | ok, prpplague, RobotGuy, sent a really bad drawing. |
| 01:57.04 | landley | While you guys go look at Sienna's etchings, I go get dinner. |
| 01:57.06 | landley | Later... |
| 01:57.10 | Sienna | bye! |
| 01:57.14 | prpplague | checks mail |
| 01:58.34 | *** join/#edev chouimat|away (n=dieu@r2351064.cidc.net) |
| 01:59.26 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Hmm, that will require mechanical mounting for stacked boards. I think this might not be workable. |
| 02:00.37 | RobotGuy | Now I just have a kernel panic. I don't have to reflash mtdblock1 everytime, do I?? |
| 02:01.07 | RobotGuy | [ 1.280000] Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) |
| 02:01.16 | prpplague | Sienna that looks doable |
| 02:01.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy need to see the rest of the boot message |
| 02:02.12 | RobotGuy | I don't really like stacking connectors on the inside of the board like that, but not sure if outside stacking connectors will work. |
| 02:02.13 | Sienna | RobotGuy, what do you mean? |
| 02:02.34 | Sienna | the inside is the only place they will fit if you do things to scale |
| 02:02.56 | Sienna | and it really is plenty strong, when you have 40 0.1" headers friction fitted |
| 02:03.42 | prpplague | yea we'd actually probably do more than 40 so that you've have some additonal power and control lines |
| 02:03.52 | RobotGuy | Sienna's scheme would seem to also require mechanical stacking using standoffs, which I am not sure will work. Maybe it will work. I have no idea. I am no board designer. |
| 02:04.09 | Sienna | no, no standoffs needed really |
| 02:04.19 | Sienna | again, look at the Mark III board |
| 02:04.28 | prpplague | Sienna url? |
| 02:04.31 | RobotGuy | Sienna: OK. You are a better judgement on that than I am. |
| 02:04.47 | prpplague | RobotGuy boot message pastebin? |
| 02:04.54 | Sienna | http://www.junun.org/MarkIII/Store.jsp#item3 |
| 02:05.02 | Sienna | http://www.junun.org/MarkIII/Store.jsp#item4 |
| 02:05.07 | Sienna | look at those two |
| 02:05.16 | Sienna | they are almost stubburnly hard to unstack! |
| 02:05.34 | Sienna | now, the only challenge would be getting long enough pins to stack the boards, but I have seen those too. |
| 02:05.41 | Sienna | (cause you have to clear the hammer) |
| 02:05.53 | RobotGuy | http://www.pastebin.ca/968503 |
| 02:06.29 | Sienna | http://www.mlelectronic.com/pcb/pdf/BSTC-1-S.pdf for example |
| 02:06.31 | prpplague | Sienna any pics of those stacked? |
| 02:07.17 | Sienna | my current angle would mask to much, so nope... sorry prpplague |
| 02:08.02 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 02:08.06 | prpplague | @#$@#$@#$ |
| 02:08.16 | prpplague | RobotGuy boot message pastebin? |
| 02:08.18 | prpplague | Sienna any pics of those stacked? |
| 02:08.23 | Sienna | my current angle would mask to much, so nope... sorry prpplague |
| 02:08.33 | prpplague | Sienna np |
| 02:08.54 | Sienna | and of course in addition would need triple row right angle, like this: |
| 02:08.55 | Sienna | http://www.mlelectronic.com/pcb/pdf/LTSHCR-1-T.pdf |
| 02:09.07 | Sienna | did you get the spacer example prpplague |
| 02:09.08 | Sienna | ? |
| 02:09.17 | prpplague | Sienna i'll send that sketch to the boss in the morning |
| 02:09.34 | prpplague | Sienna sorry now |
| 02:09.36 | prpplague | now |
| 02:09.37 | prpplague | argh |
| 02:09.38 | prpplague | no |
| 02:09.45 | MonMotha | anyone interested in an ARM9 platform with 256-1GB onboard NAND, 64MB SDRAM, RS-485, RS-232, CAN, Ethernet, and a 7.8" LCD? |
| 02:09.50 | MonMotha | board fits entirely under the LCD |
| 02:09.59 | MonMotha | also USB Host and SD slot |
| 02:10.03 | MonMotha | and resistive touchscreen |
| 02:10.13 | prpplague | i'm think my wife's cordless phone is interfering with my 802.11 |
| 02:10.22 | Sienna | prpplague, http://www.mlelectronic.com/pcb/pdf/BSTC-1-S.pdf for example |
| 02:10.29 | Sienna | cordless phones do that a LTO |
| 02:10.31 | Sienna | LOT |
| 02:10.32 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: Sure - $50? :) |
| 02:10.37 | RobotGuy | Look where they put the stacking connectors here: http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_36&products_id=149 |
| 02:11.04 | prpplague | MonMotha one time deal? or something in production? |
| 02:11.07 | RobotGuy | But that would interfere with right angle connectors for stuff. |
| 02:11.13 | Sienna | the problem I personally have with that RobotGuy, is that there really isn't enough space for pins that way |
| 02:11.28 | RobotGuy | Sienna: That's what I just said. :D:D |
| 02:11.42 | prpplague | Sienna we have those in stock |
| 02:11.45 | Sienna | looking at a SSC32, and we are going to be able to get maybe ~20 columns, max |
| 02:11.53 | Sienna | between the screws that is |
| 02:12.27 | prpplague | RobotGuy boot message pastebin? |
| 02:12.37 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I did |
| 02:12.44 | prpplague | RobotGuy sorry didn't get it |
| 02:13.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy repost the url please |
| 02:13.52 | RobotGuy | http://www.pastebin.ca/968509 |
| 02:14.13 | RobotGuy | Sienna: There isn't anything at the ends of the board? |
| 02:14.40 | Sienna | power is at one end, I figured that the JTAG would be coming off the other |
| 02:14.56 | Sienna | and reset, LED, etc still have to be placed |
| 02:15.04 | Sienna | at the ends prefered, so they are not under the stack |
| 02:15.33 | RobotGuy | didn't know there was such a thing as a triple right angle connector. |
| 02:16.08 | SpeedEvil | Sienna: are you discussing mods to the hammer board - I'm losing context. |
| 02:16.16 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Won't Hammer take up more space than that? |
| 02:16.23 | Sienna | RobotGuy, not to scale :P |
| 02:16.37 | RobotGuy | SpeedEvil: Not mods to the Hammer Board, RDP |
| 02:16.41 | Sienna | SpeedEvil, i drew a proposal sketch type deal for the RDP |
| 02:16.46 | prpplague | brb |
| 02:16.57 | Sienna | and prpplague, thanks for listening to user inpu |
| 02:16.57 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 02:16.58 | Sienna | t |
| 02:17.59 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 02:18.08 | RobotGuy | Sienna: I don't understand why we don't want stuff at the ends of the RDP under the stack. I might be missing something. I was thinking stacked boards would be the same dimensions as the RDP. |
| 02:18.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy you don't have mtd turned on |
| 02:19.12 | Sienna | they *could* be, but I don't want them to be. Again, I would prefer vertical access to the reset button, and power screw terminals. That means that at max, a stack board might be a 2.3"x2.3" device |
| 02:19.48 | RobotGuy | prpplague: They are on. |
| 02:20.07 | prpplague | RobotGuy if it was on, you'd see your flash partitions |
| 02:20.14 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Oh, right. Dang, I am not tracking well. |
| 02:20.34 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't know then - they are ON in my .config like you said to do. |
| 02:21.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy can you pastebin your current config |
| 02:21.27 | RobotGuy | I can't do this no more today. |
| 02:21.43 | prpplague | shakes his head |
| 02:22.04 | prpplague | Sienna robotguy is a really nice guy, but he really makes things difficult for himself |
| 02:22.15 | Sienna | sometimes, it does seem that way |
| 02:22.20 | prpplague | Sienna i've been trying to help him get his jffs2 image to boot for days now |
| 02:22.21 | Sienna | i haven't known him long |
| 02:22.34 | prpplague | everytime we start to find whats wrong he runs off |
| 02:22.44 | Sienna | :( |
| 02:23.05 | prpplague | you a member of the seattle/portland robotics groups? |
| 02:23.19 | Sienna | no, just happen to be in the channel |
| 02:23.34 | prpplague | ahh ok |
| 02:23.42 | Sienna | live in baltimore, MD |
| 02:23.48 | Sienna | no robot clubs nearby :( |
| 02:23.53 | prpplague | Sienna ahhhh a new englander |
| 02:24.52 | Crofton | baltimore is new engalnd? |
| 02:25.05 | Sienna | i assume he meant that he was from NE |
| 02:25.55 | prpplague | isn't MD considered part of the new england area? |
| 02:26.08 | Mirell | I think I need to go to the ER. |
| 02:26.11 | Crofton | not be people from MD :) |
| 02:26.16 | prpplague | Mirell whats up? |
| 02:26.25 | prpplague | Crofton ? |
| 02:26.40 | Sienna | i wasn't aware MD was considered NE.... |
| 02:26.45 | Crofton | MD might think of themselves as mid atlantic |
| 02:26.48 | Sienna | Mirell, if you need to go, certainly go! |
| 02:27.25 | prpplague | Sienna i stand correct |
| 02:27.34 | prpplague | corrected, just check google |
| 02:27.47 | Crofton | New Jersey might be northeast |
| 02:27.51 | Crofton | not sure about PA |
| 02:28.03 | prpplague | http://www.lynxmotion.com/images/jpg/abb02.jpg |
| 02:28.05 | prpplague | oops |
| 02:28.10 | prpplague | consisting of the modern states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut. |
| 02:28.30 | prpplague | Mirell whats up? got the flu? |
| 02:28.40 | prpplague | Mirell girlfriend poison you? |
| 02:29.07 | prpplague | Sienna i know very little about the northeast |
| 02:29.27 | Sienna | its ok, me too :P |
| 02:29.49 | Crofton | Texans don't know much beyond TX :) |
| 02:29.51 | prpplague | Sienna i can name you every island between florida and brazil |
| 02:29.54 | prpplague | Crofton ha |
| 02:30.08 | prpplague | Crofton you know better than that |
| 02:30.23 | Crofton | would rather die than live in TX :) |
| 02:30.34 | prpplague | <Crofton> MOST Texans don't know much beyond TX :) |
| 02:30.44 | prpplague | Crofton hehe, each to their own |
| 02:30.47 | Sienna | lived in texas once... all i remember, it was hot!!!! and we didn't have AC :( |
| 02:30.49 | Crofton | prpplague, name that island! |
| 02:30.56 | prpplague | Crofton hehe |
| 02:31.29 | prpplague | grabs his passport to cheat |
| 02:31.46 | Crofton | thinks he could list about 905 of the DXCC "entities" in the Caribbean |
| 02:32.44 | Crofton | that 90 % |
| 02:33.18 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:34.59 | prpplague | Crofton how many have you been to? |
| 02:36.29 | prpplague | Sienna how long ago was it when you lived in texas? |
| 02:36.40 | Crofton | only Bonaire |
| 02:36.50 | Crofton | QSL cards from mamy more |
| 02:36.59 | prpplague | Crofton QSL? |
| 02:37.07 | Sienna | many years |
| 02:38.11 | prpplague | Sienna you should try living in the west indies for awhile without A/C |
| 02:38.30 | Sienna | no thanks!! I like my creature comforts far too much |
| 02:38.37 | Sienna | im spoiled :D |
| 02:38.39 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:38.48 | Crofton | http://www.arrl.org/awards/dxcc/ :) |
| 02:39.07 | prpplague | Crofton ahh |
| 02:39.36 | Crofton | amateur radio |
| 02:39.45 | Crofton | QSL card confirms a contact |
| 02:40.33 | Sienna | anyway... Night night everyone, sweet dreams and all! I am off to finish a book before bed! :D |
| 02:40.40 | Sienna | hugs around the room |
| 02:40.57 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 02:41.38 | prpplague | Crofton first time in almost 20 years of using irc, that i actually had someone who identified themselves as female in a tech channel |
| 02:41.54 | Crofton | heh |
| 02:42.17 | Crofton | they could be making that up |
| 02:42.20 | prpplague | Mirell ping |
| 02:42.25 | prpplague | Mirell you alive? |
| 02:42.47 | prpplague | Crofton she seems to be well known amount some of the robotics groups |
| 02:43.18 | prpplague | Crofton you aren't alone about your feelings about texas |
| 02:43.32 | prpplague | Crofton i find people either love or hate texas, not much in between |
| 02:43.56 | Crofton | A friend of mine went to a NSS convention in TX with a shirt that said that :) |
| 02:44.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:44.26 | Crofton | other friends refer to TC as "The big ugly state you have to drive through on the way to Mexico" :) |
| 02:45.04 | Crofton | I've lived enough places to know people are asses in many different ways |
| 02:45.13 | Crofton | and I have accumlated all of those ways |
| 02:45.46 | prpplague | Crofton and they think mexico is better? |
| 02:46.13 | Crofton | well, the like the caves |
| 02:46.23 | Crofton | and the lack of law enforcement |
| 02:46.35 | Crofton | well, you can still have "fun" in Mexico |
| 02:46.43 | prpplague | Crofton hehe |
| 02:46.53 | prpplague | Crofton wonder what they find ugly about texas |
| 02:46.59 | Crofton | In Virginia, if you are having fun, you are most likely breaking the law |
| 02:47.14 | Crofton | it takes a long time to drive through :) |
| 02:47.23 | Crofton | the watta-burger is scary |
| 02:47.49 | prpplague | Crofton ?? whataburger? |
| 02:47.54 | prpplague | Crofton is scary? |
| 02:49.18 | Crofton | have you been to one? |
| 02:49.39 | prpplague | uh yea, since i was like 5 years old |
| 02:49.44 | Crofton | heh |
| 02:49.47 | prpplague | its like texas whitecastle |
| 02:50.00 | prpplague | Crofton what do you find scary? |
| 02:50.02 | Crofton | is not sure that is a good thing :) |
| 02:50.22 | Crofton | well, we were coming back from Mexico, and half of us were sick |
| 02:51.01 | prpplague | Crofton and? are you saying it was from whataburger? |
| 02:51.13 | Crofton | no |
| 02:51.18 | Crofton | it was from Mexico |
| 02:51.30 | Crofton | we stopped at one though, so my view is colored |
| 02:52.10 | prpplague | Crofton food tasted bad or the environment seem unfriendly? |
| 02:52.23 | Crofton | heh |
| 02:52.48 | Crofton | you need to understand, we had been driving for like 10 hours and had another 20 to go |
| 02:53.04 | Crofton | our perceptions where very strange at this point |
| 02:53.23 | Crofton | imagine spending 10 days off the beaten track in Mexico |
| 02:53.42 | Crofton | then driving back into TX and going to a wattaburger |
| 02:53.56 | Crofton | culture shock on top of bad stomachs |
| 02:54.00 | prpplague | indeed |
| 02:54.12 | prpplague | i had a similiar issue when i came back from barbados |
| 02:54.18 | Crofton | yeah |
| 02:54.19 | prpplague | i'd been there for 3 years |
| 02:54.29 | prpplague | coming back and finding stuff open 24x7 was a shock |
| 02:55.21 | prpplague | Crofton generally speaking whattaburger prides themselves on their health inspection stuff, they have the highest rating state wide over any other fast food chain |
| 02:55.24 | Crofton | Texas would likely be a very different place if I spent more then a few hours there |
| 02:55.33 | Crofton | interesting |
| 02:55.55 | prpplague | Crofton they don't make anything ahead of time, only to order |
| 02:56.04 | Crofton | I'll have to try one, if I ever spend a few hours in one place :) |
| 02:56.31 | Crofton | I just remember hopinh like heck it wouldn't lead to another round of barfing :) |
| 02:56.39 | prpplague | Crofton i've driven before almost 20 miles to go to a whattaburger instead of going to a burger place less than a mile away |
| 02:56.46 | prpplague | hehe |
| 02:56.57 | Crofton | well I need to go fall over now |
| 02:56.59 | Crofton | l8r |
| 02:57.05 | prpplague | Crofton later , nice chatting |
| 02:57.07 | Crofton | my wife hates fast food also |
| 02:57.11 | Crofton | gn |
| 02:57.47 | prpplague | Crofton i don't care for fast food either |
| 02:57.55 | prpplague | Crofton i much prefer a sit down meal |
| 03:00.31 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 03:00.41 | prpplague | is wired about tomorrows meeting |
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| 07:38.00 | Mirell | Phew. |
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| 12:16.39 | [AD]Turbo | yo all |
| 12:50.28 | *** join/#edev chouimat|work (n=dieu@209.217.106.98) |
| 13:16.38 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
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| 13:23.52 | prpplague | GPSFan: greetings |
| 13:24.00 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 13:24.06 | GPSFan | prpplague: g'day |
| 13:26.06 | chouimat|work | prpplague: GPSFan good morning |
| 13:26.19 | prpplague | sjhill: you are in early today |
| 13:26.26 | GPSFan | prpplague: remember when you have your 10am meeting that most places require the EE to deliver a functional (most subsystems working) prototype to the SW people. ie. bootloader is able to run and at least load the kernel (it may not run completely or correctly, but it runs) |
| 13:27.19 | GPSFan | chouimat|away: morning.. |
| 13:27.33 | prpplague | GPSFan: hmm, i think that is normally tru |
| 13:27.37 | prpplague | GPSFan: however |
| 13:27.55 | prpplague | GPSFan: we seem to have skipped the prototype phase and gone right to pre-production |
| 13:28.31 | GPSFan | prpplague: it was where I used to work. the SW guys wouldn't touch it untill the bootloader ran, they would help, but the "deliverable" was a running bootloader. |
| 13:29.09 | prpplague | GPSFan: ok, so we have three boards |
| 13:29.19 | GPSFan | prpplague: management was always trying to do that. it "saved so much $ and time" (hahahaha) |
| 13:29.34 | prpplague | GPSFan: board A is cpu, board B is powersupply and i/o , board C is cradle |
| 13:29.57 | prpplague | GPSFan: A is connected to B which is connected to C |
| 13:30.08 | prpplague | GPSFan: here is where the problems start |
| 13:30.22 | prpplague | GPSFan: A doesn't bring out the lines either B or C needs |
| 13:30.50 | prpplague | GPSFan: and board B and C don;'t have the lines going back to A that A needs |
| 13:31.34 | prpplague | GPSFan: plus for instance, +3.3v on board A connect is on pin 1 and on board C connector its on pin 10(last pin) |
| 13:31.37 | GPSFan | prpplague: that's stuff to be caught and corrected at the PRELIMINARY design review. (we usually had 3, Prelim, Critical, and Final) |
| 13:31.50 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea well thats another problem |
| 13:32.10 | GPSFan | prpplague: are you ISO900x? |
| 13:32.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: no design review, after all he _IS_ the EE with 20+ years of experience |
| 13:32.17 | prpplague | GPSFan: no |
| 13:32.42 | prpplague | GPSFan: iso is way way too expensive for smaller company like us |
| 13:32.43 | GPSFan | well, as bad as the ISO process is, it makes you follow the proceedures. |
| 13:32.50 | prpplague | indeed |
| 13:33.03 | chouimat|work | prpplague: this is scary |
| 13:33.58 | prpplague | refrains from making jokes about what scares chouimat|work |
| 13:34.37 | chouimat|work | prpplague: this days incompetence is on the top of my list =) |
| 13:34.42 | prpplague | GPSFan: basically if i complain about the problems i am not a "team player" , if i don't say anything |
| 13:35.04 | GPSFan | having a process description and following it is even more important for small companies who can't afford many lengthly prototype design phases. Mean and lean. |
| 13:35.17 | sjhill | prpplague: i'm always in early, just not always online |
| 13:35.34 | GPSFan | prpplague: well anyway, best of luck... |
| 13:36.14 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea thanks, i'm just pissy and in a complaining mood about this |
| 13:36.21 | prpplague | sjhill: ahh |
| 13:36.57 | GPSFan | prpplague: btdt, got ths tee-shirt & the scars. ;>) |
| 13:37.08 | prpplague | hehe |
| 13:37.49 | prpplague | GPSFan: my "thing" is i don't like making the same mistake twice |
| 13:38.12 | prpplague | GPSFan: once you've learned something, you should endeavor not to create the same problem again |
| 13:38.36 | prpplague | GPSFan: and its like they've completely forgotten everything they've learned over the last 30 years of business |
| 13:39.30 | GPSFan | prpplague: management ususlly has large memory leaks when it comes to spending $ and doing things right. |
| 13:39.53 | prpplague | GPSFan: well, this one is costing them big $$ |
| 13:41.46 | GPSFan | prpplague: make sure you document with e-mails (to your self if neccessary) the problems so when the prototypes dont work together....... |
| 13:44.44 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea all bcc |
| 13:45.01 | prpplague | GPSFan: its a complete cluster |
| 13:45.14 | GPSFan | ;>(( |
| 13:46.48 | prpplague | GPSFan: in the past we've always do a engineering rev |
| 13:47.02 | prpplague | GPSFan: usually the size of a 8.5 x 11 |
| 13:47.12 | prpplague | GPSFan: actually i have a pic of the m5900 up |
| 13:47.19 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/M5900 |
| 13:49.12 | prpplague | GPSFan: this way we can work out all the hardware issues and if we need to make changes, doing it on a large board is easier |
| 13:49.23 | GPSFan | prpplague: well there is an effect that happens with successful projects. After the first success, management says oooww "we" are good designers. After the second, management starts to get the idea that "we" are such good designers that engineering can skip some of the "wasteful" reviews (since "we" are such good anc carefull designers). This leads to disaster. |
| 13:49.31 | prpplague | GPSFan: this time however, they skipped doing that |
| 13:51.54 | GPSFan | I've seen that pic before. looks like a nice proto to work with for sw dev, and maybe even early customer demos. |
| 13:52.37 | prpplague | GPSFan: indeed |
| 13:53.33 | prpplague | GPSFan: and see once we have that dev board up and running, the GUI folks can start doing development while the actual formfactor pcbs are under development |
| 13:54.01 | GPSFan | drag one of those into your meeting and ask "why are we not doing one of these as the first proto"? |
| 13:54.54 | prpplague | GPSFan: already did |
| 13:55.05 | GPSFan | ;>( |
| 13:55.57 | prpplague | GPSFan: basically got the "you not being a team player" and "not contributing to the rapid development plus cost savings of going directly to formfactor" |
| 13:56.15 | prpplague | chouimat|work: i was reading this - http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3738341 |
| 13:56.36 | prpplague | chouimat|work: do most canadian feel anti-american ? |
| 13:56.56 | GPSFan | prpplague: is there someone to step into your shoes if you were to fall off a cliff? |
| 13:57.25 | prpplague | GPSFan: there would be a couple that would try, junior programmers |
| 13:57.32 | prpplague | GPSFan: but none are qualified |
| 13:57.49 | prpplague | GPSFan: why? planning to kill me? |
| 13:57.56 | GPSFan | but can they find and fix the obvious hardware problems that seem to exist? |
| 13:58.00 | chouimat|work | prpplague: yes ... and some of us are amazed to find "decent american" ;) |
| 13:58.05 | prpplague | GPSFan: no |
| 13:58.20 | prpplague | chouimat|work: interesting |
| 13:58.51 | prpplague | chouimat|work: i'm well aware of the anti-american sentiments in many places, just surprised about canada |
| 13:59.03 | GPSFan | sounds like your "team" might just have a problem if that player were sidelined. jury duty for example. |
| 13:59.08 | Crofton | suspects chouimat|work is not entirely serious |
| 13:59.38 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea |
| 13:59.38 | Crofton | finds people are ok with indviduals, but they do not like the US government policies |
| 13:59.53 | prpplague | ahh |
| 14:00.00 | Crofton | but mosy people understand the difference between people and their government |
| 14:00.14 | Crofton | just don't be an ass :) |
| 14:00.19 | prpplague | Crofton: hehe |
| 14:00.40 | prpplague | Crofton: like for barbados, they basically don't even want american tourists |
| 14:00.45 | Crofton | we have a workshop in Ireland and we will be bringing a roll of duct tape to silence one of the guys :) |
| 14:00.57 | prpplague | Crofton: they actually add a giant tax on flights from the US to keep americans out |
| 14:01.03 | Crofton | well, thats tourists :) |
| 14:01.34 | prpplague | Crofton: its a little more, its just one way to "punish" americans |
| 14:01.38 | Crofton | I;m not sure if anyone actually likes their governement |
| 14:02.15 | Crofton | prefers the Brazilian approach, to get into Brazil you jump the same hoops the other country makes you jump |
| 14:02.29 | prpplague | funny though, the barbados government waives rhinna's flight taxes when she flys in from the US |
| 14:02.42 | Crofton | Brazilian going to the US get fingerprinted, so Americans going to Braizl get fingerprinted |
| 14:03.27 | prpplague | Crofton: yea, thats yet another reason so many conferences don't even consider being held in the US |
| 14:05.43 | chouimat|work | prpplague: having to deal with US customs officers is enough to want to go elsewhere ;) |
| 14:06.14 | prpplague | chouimat|work: indeed |
| 14:06.24 | Crofton | heh |
| 14:06.37 | Crofton | that is true |
| 14:06.43 | Crofton | even for Americans |
| 14:07.01 | Crofton | A friends father hurt himself in Costa Rica |
| 14:07.12 | Crofton | and could not get back into the US without his passport |
| 14:07.49 | Crofton | she went to the US embassy and was told to go find the passport becuase there was no way they would let him into thcountry without it, even on an air ambulance |
| 14:09.19 | prpplague | i rarely have problesms with customs portion of CBP, its mainly when i get my passport inspected and they see i've been to so many west indian islands the give me problems |
| 14:09.47 | prpplague | Crofton: he was a US citizen? |
| 14:10.23 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:10.39 | Crofton | busted ribs and internal injuries |
| 14:10.49 | SpeedEvil | Biometrics - done right - would be wonderful. Including a nice audit trail of who verified your ID. |
| 14:10.53 | prpplague | Crofton: that doesn't sound right, i've had to replace my sons passport and they got me a new one at the consulat in 48 hours |
| 14:10.56 | Crofton | 80 yo eco-tourist slams into a platform in a zip line in the jungle :) |
| 14:11.07 | SpeedEvil | Of course, the government isn't really interested in doing this. |
| 14:11.35 | Crofton | Could well be individual embassies act differently |
| 14:11.50 | prpplague | Crofton: yea, they are very independent |
| 14:11.56 | Crofton | once again, it boils down to the behavior of individuals |
| 14:12.02 | prpplague | Crofton: there is a wide lattitude given to the consular |
| 14:12.14 | chouimat|work | sound like a case: I don't feel like working today |
| 14:12.18 | Crofton | yeah |
| 14:12.36 | Crofton | they had to travel several hours to pick up his belongings |
| 14:12.50 | prpplague | funny thing is, at many of the consulates, a vast majority of the staff are locals |
| 14:13.04 | Crofton | cheaper :) |
| 14:13.10 | prpplague | so it might have been just that he was dealing with a local agent |
| 14:13.22 | prpplague | we've had problems with that at the barbados consulate |
| 14:14.05 | prpplague | we had a dark skinned woman at the consulate that basically refused to help us because we were white |
| 14:14.31 | chouimat|work | prpplague: and they say white are racist ... |
| 14:15.29 | prpplague | chouimat|work: well not everyone is racist, but you run into some occasionaly no matter where you go |
| 14:16.38 | prpplague | Crofton: we also go alot of nasty looks and yelled at since i had a US passport and the let us go in directly without waiting in line at the consulate |
| 14:16.44 | chouimat|work | prpplague: so true |
| 14:16.48 | prpplague | that seem to really piss people off |
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| 16:28.05 | Mirell | Hmm... |
| 16:29.08 | Mirell | Why does sed not want to print out something, if I give it something like, s/moomoo\(direction="miao"\)*/\1/ |
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| 16:32.51 | MothaWork | prpplague: to answer your question about the ARM device I mentioned, production, though small volume |
| 16:32.59 | MothaWork | no real idea on pricing |
| 16:33.09 | MothaWork | I know our cost, but not what we'd be able to sell it for |
| 16:37.16 | SpeedEvil | What's double the cost ish? |
| 16:37.22 | SpeedEvil | If you can say that. |
| 16:38.00 | MothaWork | I'm not sure if I could at this time |
| 16:38.06 | SpeedEvil | np |
| 16:38.36 | SpeedEvil | What is it - something automotive? |
| 16:48.09 | MothaWork | it was designed for a system automation application |
| 16:48.18 | MothaWork | however, you could probably make it portable if you want to |
| 16:48.24 | MothaWork | it runs for like 8 hours off a small lead acid |
| 16:48.28 | MothaWork | including LCD |
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| 18:20.12 | prpplague | RobotGuy: greetings |
| 18:20.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy: can you repost your new kernel config? |
| 18:20.23 | RobotGuy | Hi |
| 18:20.45 | RobotGuy | I just mailed it |
| 18:21.25 | prpplague | checks |
| 18:21.34 | RobotGuy | Yahoo address |
| 18:22.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy: mail from seems to always take a long time to show up |
| 18:22.32 | prpplague | waits |
| 18:24.09 | RobotGuy | I think I see a problem: <M> CFI Flash device in physical memory map |
| 18:24.55 | prpplague | that would do it |
| 18:25.20 | RobotGuy | I found more problems - more things that should be IN the kernel instead of as modules. I changed them and rebuilding now. |
| 18:25.52 | RobotGuy | They all had to do with the CFI Flash |
| 18:26.07 | prpplague | RobotGuy: never understand why you don;t use a known good config for doing your dev work |
| 18:26.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: This is kernel 2.6.25-rc7 |
| 18:26.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy: and? |
| 18:26.53 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Was trying to use config from 2.6.22 to start with. |
| 18:26.58 | prpplague | RobotGuy: the 2.6.25 patch includes a standard config |
| 18:27.27 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I didn't think it would be all -that- different. I was way wrong. |
| 18:28.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, rule of thumb, always start with a known working config, then after testing, tweak what you need |
| 18:28.52 | RobotGuy | My thumbs don't listen well. :P |
| 18:29.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i assume to got the cc email from the boss |
| 18:29.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Got it. Looking at it now |
| 18:34.06 | RobotGuy | I apparently can not do a "reply to all" :( |
| 18:36.47 | ds2 | configs are NOT that tricky of a thing |
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| 18:58.55 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I just replied to the e-mail. |
| 18:59.13 | RobotGuy | I even got it to reply to all. |
| 18:59.50 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ok |
| 19:00.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i've not read the email, i'm totally burnt out on the RDP stuff |
| 19:00.10 | prpplague | RobotGuy: just don't enough to make it worth while |
| 19:00.24 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Sorry |
| 19:02.19 | RobotGuy | This JFFS thing just isn't working. Going back to stock setup and try again. |
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| 19:13.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, use the included config and do a make oldconfig |
| 19:13.30 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I didn't do make oldconfig. |
| 19:13.47 | RobotGuy | I still do not understand why that is needed or what it does. |
| 19:13.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you should always do a make oldconfig after copying a config file into place |
| 19:14.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy: make oldconfig checks the config file to make sure it agrees with the configuration available for the current kernel version |
| 19:14.39 | prpplague | RobotGuy: if a feature has been removed from a kernel, it is also removed from the config |
| 19:15.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: and if something has been added, it prompts you to decide if you want to add it to the base config |
| 19:15.38 | prpplague | RobotGuy: if say you use a .config from 2.6.22 on 2.6.25 without running make oldconfig. you will probably have problems as many of the features have changed |
| 19:16.50 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Ahhhhhh, OK. |
| 19:17.16 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Yes, I see lots of interesting things in the new kernel. ;) |
| 19:17.58 | RobotGuy | I'm rebuilding my kernel and JFFS2 image now. |
| 19:19.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy: your email has yet to arrive |
| 19:19.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I think it's a Yahoo problem. Mail to your other address always seems to arrive right away. |
| 19:21.45 | RobotGuy | I do not think W.A.L.T.E.R. is going to be together in time for the PARTS meeting Saturday. Some holes still need to be drilled and I don't have the tools. |
| 19:23.52 | ds2 | you can always do make menuconfig, save it w/o doing anything else |
| 19:23.55 | ds2 | same effect as make oldconfig |
| 19:25.11 | RobotGuy | ds2: I'll use make oldconfig. :) |
| 19:25.33 | ds2 | RobotGuy: just pointing that out incase you happen to use menuconfig to inspect the config first |
| 19:26.02 | RobotGuy | ds2: Thanks, but I'll just start over from a known config from now on. |
| 19:32.29 | MothaWork | prpplague: did you see my explaination on the ARM board? |
| 19:32.48 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea thanks |
| 19:32.56 | MothaWork | any interest? |
| 19:33.04 | prpplague | MonMotha: you said it was arm9? |
| 19:33.12 | MothaWork | yup. It's one of the Atmel devices |
| 19:33.35 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Progress. I still got a kernel panic, but it's not the same one I got last time. |
| 19:33.38 | MothaWork | We also have a version with Audio in place of the CAN and HDMI in place of the 802.15.4 (did I mention it has 802.15.4?) |
| 19:33.53 | MothaWork | no 802.11, though we're trying to find a way to add that |
| 19:35.08 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/969875 |
| 19:35.34 | prpplague | MothaWork: sorry i'll probably pass on it, i'm currently looking for a cortex-a8 board |
| 19:35.47 | MothaWork | hum, don't ahve one of those |
| 19:36.36 | ds2 | RobotGuy: I think your JFFS2 image is bad |
| 19:36.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hmm sounds like your jffs2 image is corrupt on not copied properly |
| 19:36.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: how did you flash it? |
| 19:37.19 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Oh, you mean on the Hammer, right? I have not reflashed it recently. |
| 19:37.32 | prpplague | RobotGuy: yea, probably need to reflash it |
| 19:37.41 | RobotGuy | prpplague: The JFFS2 image on the hammer. OK, easy to do! |
| 19:37.55 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you going to use openocd to flash it? |
| 19:39.27 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Not for the JFFS2 image. |
| 19:39.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: how are you flashing the jffs2 image? |
| 19:41.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: APEX xreceive and then write to flash |
| 19:41.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have notes from yesterday and such, in preparation for writing on the Wiki. |
| 19:42.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ok make sure you are writing it to the correct flash location |
| 19:42.53 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I wrote down the way you specified the other day. |
| 19:43.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy: in this case it will be nor:2304k |
| 19:43.37 | RobotGuy | prpplague: ?? |
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| 19:44.03 | prpplague | # |
| 19:44.03 | prpplague | Creating 2 MTD partitions on "physmap-flash.0": |
| 19:44.03 | prpplague | # |
| 19:44.03 | prpplague | 0x00000000-0x00240000 : "System" |
| 19:44.03 | prpplague | # |
| 19:44.03 | prpplague | 0x00240000-0x01000000 : "JFFS2" |
| 19:44.08 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have .size set to 0x240000 now |
| 19:44.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy: which is 2304k |
| 19:44.29 | RobotGuy | OK |
| 19:45.15 | RobotGuy | It takes awhile to Xmodem upload 8.8 MB. |
| 19:45.26 | prpplague | RobotGuy: wow, thats a big image |
| 19:45.57 | ds2 | 8M? |
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| 19:46.20 | prpplague | yea, i'm used to images being less than 2mb |
| 19:46.22 | RobotGuy | prpplague: When I erase the NOR, should it be erase "nor:2304k+0xec0000" |
| 19:46.40 | RobotGuy | ds2: 8.8 MB |
| 19:46.59 | ds2 | I think the easiest thing to do at this point is to boot off a root on another device and manually mount and inspect |
| 19:47.28 | RobotGuy | ds2: I am following how prpplague showed me. |
| 19:47.40 | prpplague | RobotGuy: 0xdc0000 |
| 19:47.56 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you previously had it change to get rid of the initrd in flash |
| 19:48.11 | prpplague | ds2: why? |
| 19:48.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy: erase nor:2304k+0xdc0000 |
| 19:48.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy: copy 0x30800000+size_of_image nor:2304k |
| 19:49.06 | prpplague | RobotGuy: where size_of_image is the exact byte count of the jffs2 image |
| 19:49.11 | ds2 | prpplague: you are guessing right now |
| 19:49.21 | ds2 | unless you are a better mind reader ;) |
| 19:49.22 | prpplague | ds2: guess at what? |
| 19:49.55 | ds2 | prpplague: at what may be the problem. whereas I am suggesting just looking at it. cuz it mounted it so init will either be at the expected place or not |
| 19:50.09 | prpplague | ds2: no i know thats the problem |
| 19:50.26 | ds2 | okay so you are a better mind reader :) |
| 19:50.58 | prpplague | ds2: he previous had the jffs2 image start at 1280k , now he has it at 2304k |
| 19:51.48 | RobotGuy | It's going to be REAL interesting trying to write a tutorial for this. My head is already starting to hurt. |
| 19:52.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have to get some food and do a few things before continuing with this. |
| 19:52.57 | prpplague | okie dokie |
| 19:53.45 | prpplague | ds2: he had previously loaded his jffs2 image with the starting point of 1280k , since he changed his kernel, the kernel is marking the beginning of the jffs2 at 2304k , which means its missing the first 1024k of the jffs2 image |
| 19:54.23 | ds2 | prpplague: got it after you explained it |
| 19:54.36 | ds2 | think it might be less error prone to boot into an alternate root and flash from there |
| 19:54.50 | prpplague | ds2: thats robotguys biggest problem, he changes one item, but isn't consistant about making sure all the numbers agree |
| 19:55.07 | ds2 | that doesn't work well for production but one offs, that avoids some of these pitfalls |
| 19:55.25 | ds2 | prpplague: right but if he was doing it within Linux, the numbers automatically agree |
| 19:55.29 | prpplague | ds2: not really, we'll just use some openocd script to do it |
| 19:55.37 | prpplague | ds2: just as easy |
| 19:55.48 | prpplague | ds2: uh no |
| 19:55.58 | ds2 | easy yes, propagating all the details consistantly.. not really |
| 19:56.02 | prpplague | ds2: he would have the same problem |
| 19:56.19 | prpplague | ds2: his kernel on that he was using had the partition starting at 1280k |
| 19:56.27 | prpplague | ds2: if he booted to initrd flashed it |
| 19:56.34 | prpplague | ds2: then booted to the new kernel at 2304k |
| 19:56.41 | prpplague | ds2: he'd ahve the same exact problem |
| 19:56.56 | ds2 | prpplague: no, I mean boot with the same kernel but use different arguments...i.e. change root to a different device |
| 19:57.25 | prpplague | ds2: if he'd have used the same kernel, there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place |
| 19:57.26 | ds2 | mixing multiple kernels is as safe as always using insmod -f on multiple kernels! |
| 19:57.52 | prpplague | ds2: flashing isn't the issue, changing values and changing kernels is |
| 19:58.17 | prpplague | ds2: plus he gets into his kernel config and almost does a make enable_all |
| 19:58.19 | ds2 | think we agree on that |
| 19:59.36 | ds2 | as long as you flash from within the same kernel you are going to use, the numbers have to match up. changing any one of the binary component will introduce errors |
| 19:59.37 | prpplague | brb |
| 20:27.15 | prpplague | returns |
| 20:27.29 | prpplague | ds2: yep |
| 20:30.47 | SpeedEvil | Robot slaves! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUriz34g_sw&feature=related |
| 20:31.25 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: work safe? |
| 20:31.30 | SpeedEvil | completely |
| 20:31.31 | SpeedEvil | sorry |
| 20:54.49 | prpplague | brb |
| 21:06.11 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 21:07.08 | *** join/#edev rodserling_ (n=rodserli@unaffiliated/rodserling) |
| 21:09.18 | prpplague | argh cups is driving me nuts |
| 21:10.32 | SpeedEvil | printcap ftw! |
| 21:12.32 | prpplague | i can't seem to get rid of this bogus driver |
| 21:13.05 | SpeedEvil | :( |
| 21:33.49 | *** join/#edev landley (n=landley@adsl-68-93-84-18.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 21:33.49 | *** mode/#edev [+o landley] by ChanServ |
| 21:34.30 | prpplague | landley: greetings |
| 21:34.37 | prpplague | landley: don't you love houston? |
| 21:35.39 | prpplague | landley: sugarland texas produces more sugar from sugar can than all of the west indies combined |
| 21:35.46 | prpplague | s/can/cane |
| 21:36.38 | landley | prpplague: no. |
| 21:36.52 | landley | Today, I upgraded to mercurial 1.0. |
| 21:36.55 | landley | Today, I broke mercurial 1.0. |
| 21:37.01 | landley | Emailed the list already. |
| 21:37.41 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:37.49 | ds2 | prpplague: but how is that relative to demand, is there still more demand for sugar then they can grow? |
| 21:38.26 | prpplague | ds2: indeed, the business of rum distilation is a big business these days |
| 21:39.00 | CosmicPenguin | also, biofuel |
| 21:39.05 | prpplague | ds2: right now about 50% of the sugar can slurry goes to rum distilation |
| 21:39.25 | ds2 | prplague: so nothing left for biofuel then? |
| 21:39.25 | prpplague | s/can/cane |
| 21:39.46 | prpplague | ds2: nothing on the stats i've seen |
| 21:39.49 | landley | biofuel works best with oils to make biodiesel. |
| 21:40.02 | landley | Ethanol only has something like 2/3 the energy per gallon of gasoline. |
| 21:40.13 | prpplague | yea, from my understanding sugar cane doesn't make good ethanol |
| 21:40.23 | ds2 | and gasoline only has a faction of the energy of diesel |
| 21:40.27 | prpplague | or atleast the type that currently grow |
| 21:40.28 | landley | That said, if you're going to ferment ethanol, sugar cane's not even close to the cheapest source material. |
| 21:40.49 | landley | Oh it makes fine ethanol. Ethanol is ethanol. |
| 21:40.56 | landley | It's just expensive to use as a source material. |
| 21:41.03 | prpplague | iirc they have to have a different bread of sugar cane to make ethanol, and since that kind of sugar cane doesn't make tasty rum |
| 21:41.08 | ds2 | I wonder if the waste from sugar production would make good feed for methanol production |
| 21:41.14 | landley | Corn syrup's cheaper, but corn still sucks as a source material for ethanol. |
| 21:41.25 | CosmicPenguin | Brazil does a lot of sugarcane as biofuel stuff - though probably not as much as they claim |
| 21:41.31 | landley | prpplague: you can make ethanol from all sorts of stuff. |
| 21:41.52 | landley | What they _really_ need to do is figure out a way to ferment kudzu to produce ethanol. |
| 21:41.56 | landley | Then ethanol would start to matter. |
| 21:41.57 | prpplague | landley: oh i agree, but the amount of energy you can extract is different |
| 21:42.02 | landley | Until then: screw ethanol, go with biodiesel. |
| 21:42.19 | landley | The problem with ethanol from corn syrup is if you count up all the energy put into its production, it's actually a net loss. |
| 21:42.33 | prpplague | landley: barbados has been working on sugar cane ethanol for some time now |
| 21:42.40 | landley | You use more oil growing, harvesting, transporting, and processing the corn than you get back out of the ethanol. |
| 21:42.46 | prpplague | landley: they even burn the pulp of the cane for power as well |
| 21:42.58 | landley | prpplague: sugar is a cheap locally produced source material in barbados. |
| 21:43.10 | prpplague | landley: yea |
| 21:43.17 | landley | Here, sugar is an expensive commodity outbid by other commercial uses, and corn is the cheap commodity. |
| 21:43.30 | landley | Mostly due to federal subsidies on corn and ethanol production, of course... |
| 21:43.30 | CosmicPenguin | not for long |
| 21:43.41 | landley | Oh yeah, price of corn's doubled over the past year. (More than, I think.) |
| 21:43.47 | landley | So has wheat, though. |
| 21:43.50 | landley | Just about all of it has. |
| 21:43.53 | CosmicPenguin | and the unintended consequences are hurting |
| 21:43.54 | prpplague | http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2006/05/23/barbados-light-and-power-director-sugar-cane-ethanol-still-at-feasibility-stage/ |
| 21:44.00 | CosmicPenguin | like for example, the price of beer |
| 21:44.02 | landley | When energy productiono starts competing with food production for the same acreage, prices go up. |
| 21:44.11 | CosmicPenguin | becuase all the farmers are abandoning hops to grow more profitable corn |
| 21:44.15 | landley | CosmicPenguin: the UT student newspaper had an article on the hops shortage last week. |
| 21:44.24 | landley | Hops are coming back now that the prices has shot up. |
| 21:44.34 | CosmicPenguin | yeah - my good friend home brews, and he is having trouble finding certain kinds of hops |
| 21:44.48 | landley | Short term rebalancing continues. Long term, trying to grow enough fuel to replace our oil imports is physically impossible. |
| 21:44.52 | ds2 | goes to find out what exactly is hops |
| 21:45.04 | SpeedEvil | waves the nuclear flag. |
| 21:45.05 | landley | If we stopped eating and used 100% of our output for energy, we wouldn't quite manage to replace 50% of our oil imports. |
| 21:45.21 | landley | (agricultural output, that is). |
| 21:45.41 | landley | waves the big windmills electrolyzing water to produce hydrogen flag.) |
| 21:45.50 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:45.57 | CosmicPenguin | is holding out for biofuel from algae |
| 21:46.00 | landley | A solution requiring zero new technological innovation, just lots and lots of infrastructure investment. |
| 21:46.11 | Crofton | suspects some of us would benefit from not eating |
| 21:46.17 | prpplague | yea, right now sugarcane for rum is just too economically profitable |
| 21:46.19 | landley | Oh don't you start. |
| 21:46.24 | SpeedEvil | waves the nuclear-hydrogen-thermal catalytic process flag. |
| 21:46.34 | landley | had this conversation with Denis Vlasenko in email over the past 3 days. |
| 21:46.38 | CosmicPenguin | that must be one funky looking flag |
| 21:46.41 | landley | Denis is looking for a job, by the way. He quit Google. |
| 21:46.47 | SpeedEvil | CosmicPenguin: it's easy to see at night though. |
| 21:48.21 | SpeedEvil | My one-line energy policy (for the UK) Nuclear *20 - all fixed loads to nuclear from oil. hydrogen generation from nuclear for those mobile apps that can use. This does good things for your balance of trade too. |
| 21:48.21 | prpplague | landley: anyway my point about sugarland was that its total growing area is about 1/2 the size of the growing area of barbados |
| 21:48.40 | prpplague | landley: yet sugarland produces almost as much as the entire west indies combined |
| 21:50.37 | landley | The problem with nuclear is it produces waste which essentially _never_ stops being outright lethal. |
| 21:51.00 | landley | Imagine if the romans had used nuclear power. |
| 21:51.20 | SpeedEvil | landley: it stops being lethal much faster than it did if you put it in the ground. |
| 21:51.31 | landley | prpplague: and they do so via huge uses of pesticides and fertilizers derived from oil. |
| 21:51.44 | landley | SpeedEvil: says who? |
| 21:51.52 | prpplague | landley: they'd have nuke everyone that dared speak against them |
| 21:51.58 | landley | I live about 200 miles east of one of the big proposed nuclear waste "disposal" sites. |
| 21:52.10 | landley | We get this issue re-argued about every 18 months around here. |
| 21:52.22 | landley | prpplague: I'm just talking about nuclear power. |
| 21:52.30 | SpeedEvil | landley: if you use up the radiation, it stops being radioactive. |
| 21:52.32 | landley | Their dump sites would still be lethal today. |
| 21:52.37 | landley | SpeedEvil: great idea. How? |
| 21:52.40 | prpplague | landley: yep |
| 21:52.45 | landley | One of those marvelous "belling the cat" things... |
| 21:53.10 | SpeedEvil | landley: you dig the ore out of the ground, and refine it, and put it through a reactor. It becomes less radioactive than the originating ore in a relatively short timescale. |
| 21:55.49 | landley | SpeedEvil: have you ever actually dealt with radiation in any capacity? |
| 21:56.04 | SpeedEvil | has smoke alarm! |
| 21:56.14 | landley | 's father worked on ICBM guidance and tracking systems while landley was growing up. |
| 21:56.26 | SpeedEvil | However, more seriously, I've done a couple of years of physics at uni. |
| 21:56.30 | SpeedEvil | And some research. |
| 21:57.09 | landley | Ok, then you know that in a reactor your coolant water becomes radioactive. The pipes it goes through get bombarded with neutrons (more of a crystalization problem than becoming radioactive, but still). |
| 21:57.25 | SpeedEvil | Sure. If you use water. |
| 21:57.49 | SpeedEvil | And neutron activation is a problem for all of the 'hot' loop in most reactors, and the first level structure. |
| 21:57.59 | landley | In medical uses, things like gloves get contaminated. By bulk most radioactive waste is that sort of stuff, which is painful and expensive to clean off properly. |
| 21:58.04 | SpeedEvil | this is actually a comparatively small volume. |
| 21:58.30 | landley | You can concentrate the radioactive waste so that you have a small amount of highly radioactive stuff, and a large amount of stuff with a longer half-life. |
| 21:58.42 | landley | It's really not something you want to allow into the groundwater, ever. |
| 21:59.20 | SpeedEvil | Highly radioactive stuff into the groundwater in 1000 years is not an issue, as by that time it'll have decayed - unless it's truly huge quantities. |
| 21:59.29 | landley | People have done the math to work out how many extra cancer cases there are around the world from the atom bomb tests everybody did in the pacific from the 1950s onwards. It was low six figures annually. |
| 21:59.51 | SpeedEvil | Sure - don't do that again. |
| 22:00.23 | landley | SpeedEvil: and how long does a reactor have to operate to produce as much nuclear waste as one atom bomb? |
| 22:00.34 | landley | Sure, it doesnt' immediately get released into the environment. We'd like to prevent that. |
| 22:00.56 | landley | But if you're talking "let's have 3-4 reactors, per city, around the globe for the next hundred years..." |
| 22:00.59 | SpeedEvil | An atom bomb finely divides the bomb stuff into plasma. It's _really_really_ not the same case. |
| 22:01.06 | landley | Cumulatively, this sucks rocks. |
| 22:01.21 | landley | shrugs. |
| 22:01.53 | SpeedEvil | Look at the total emissions outside the plant from three mile island incident for example. |
| 22:02.27 | Crofton | How about we all stop using som much electricity? |
| 22:02.56 | SpeedEvil | Sure. You first! |
| 22:03.03 | SpeedEvil | turns off Croftons computer. |
| 22:03.08 | SpeedEvil | More seriously. |
| 22:03.14 | CosmicPenguin | wow - that solves several problems! |
| 22:04.18 | SpeedEvil | Yes - conservation is important - and IME there should be _massive_ government programs to upgrade householders insulation free at the time, and split the power savings with them over the next 10 years. |
| 22:04.45 | SpeedEvil | This helps with balance of trade too - and is over the long term free. |
| 22:05.34 | SpeedEvil | (comparatively) and has ongoing good things done to both welfare, circulating money in the economy and less going out. |
| 22:07.43 | landley | Ah, there it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident |
| 22:07.54 | landley | Hard to search for something with a darn umlauty thing in the name. |
| 22:08.13 | landley | Dear rest of the world: pick an alphabet. Thanks, Rob. |
| 22:08.29 | landley | uses a laptop. |
| 22:08.34 | landley | Laptops use less electricity than desktops. |
| 22:08.41 | landley | (Admittedly, that's not _why_, but still...) |
| 22:08.43 | SpeedEvil | too. (mosltY) |
| 22:09.01 | landley | High end laptops use more than low end desktops, but not more than high end desktops. :) |
| 22:09.25 | landley | SpeedEvil: you heard that incandescent light bulbs are being outlawed, right? |
| 22:09.31 | landley | Something like 2012, I forget the details. |
| 22:09.37 | prpplague | landley: i need to post some pics of my hamer-top, hehe |
| 22:09.46 | landley | prpplague: hammer-top? |
| 22:10.03 | SpeedEvil | had some schematic scribblings for a hammertop too. |
| 22:10.20 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@66.54.118.16) |
| 22:10.38 | SpeedEvil | Little bluetooth keyboard, PSP LCD, bluetooth, wifi, couple of 18650s, GSM, GPS |
| 22:10.52 | prpplague | landley: this case gutted and stuffed with a hammer board and color lcd |
| 22:10.54 | prpplague | landley: http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2340839 |
| 22:10.57 | landley | Plug a usb hub into nail downstream, add keyboard, mouse, and video... |
| 22:11.00 | landley | The video is the hard part. |
| 22:11.20 | prpplague | landley: naw, i was able to do the lcd pretty easy |
| 22:11.33 | prpplague | landley: but the keyboard and mouse are usb infact |
| 22:11.58 | prpplague | landley: i use 4 2800mAh AA batteries |
| 22:12.29 | prpplague | landley: granted its not a power house, but it does fine for surfing the web and irc |
| 22:12.34 | landley | Back when I saw a "learning computer toy" which was a laptop case and keyboard with the guts of essentially a speak-and-spell, for $49 back around 2001, I knew laptops were going to take over from desktops. |
| 22:12.53 | landley | Took until 2005 for them to actually start outselling 'em, though. |
| 22:13.31 | prpplague | landley: well, the kids learning laptops are getting alot more powerful |
| 22:13.53 | landley | prpplague: so what would it take to make that laptoppy thing into a hammer carrier board? :) |
| 22:14.32 | prpplague | landley: one sec phone |
| 22:20.35 | prpplague | ok back |
| 22:20.46 | prpplague | landley: wouldn't take much |
| 22:21.05 | prpplague | landley: problem is we might get some grief from vtech over the modification |
| 22:21.42 | prpplague | landley: i have been meaning to post a doc on the wiki about the hack |
| 22:21.50 | prpplague | landley: but time has never permited me to do so |
| 22:22.07 | prpplague | landley: maybe i should and submit it to hack a day |
| 22:22.34 | landley | prpplague: I take it there aren't blank laptop case + keyboard/mouse/lcd/battery with no motherboard in 'em easily available off the shelf? |
| 22:22.38 | landley | All custom jobbies? |
| 22:22.47 | MonMotha | why is it that companies care so much about what people do with hardware once they buy it? |
| 22:22.47 | prpplague | landley: yea |
| 22:22.57 | prpplague | MonMotha: i ask the same question |
| 22:23.02 | MonMotha | heck, if you're not even re-using the electronics, it's a giant hunk of plastic. Just scratch off the "V-Tech" and be done with it |
| 22:23.40 | prpplague | landley: the great thing about these learning laptops is that that usually have lots of battery compartments to use standard batteries like AA's and that the vast majority of the plastic is empty |
| 22:23.49 | prpplague | landley: which means you have lots of room for custom boards |
| 22:23.57 | landley | All laptop batteries are a bunch of AA's wrapped in a case with some charging logic. |
| 22:24.05 | landley | Crack 'em open. They may be lithium AA's, but they're still AA's. |
| 22:24.13 | landley | Because AA's are the cheapest way to get batteries. |
| 22:24.27 | prpplague | landley: indeed, but its easy to get AA's at the gas station, not so with a laptop battery |
| 22:24.31 | landley | (Maybe this has changed in the past ~3 years, I haven't been paying attention...) |
| 22:24.58 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 22:24.58 | prpplague | landley: and if you are traveling somewhere overseas, its often nice to be able to just chunk the AA's and buy new ones |
| 22:25.21 | landley | The charging logic isn't brain surgery. It's available separately retail (although the patents haven't expired yet to charge "non-rechargeable" batteries, so it isn't dirt cheap yet. |
| 22:25.33 | ds2 | thank you for recognizing this... now tell the #!@@$!@#A@$@#A@$ Comsumer electronic folks to move back to using AA"s instead of the 1239812038129389123812 different types of Li Ions |
| 22:25.40 | prpplague | landley: yea, just just don't always have a place to plug into ac |
| 22:26.22 | prpplague | landley: but the battery thing is just a secondary item |
| 22:26.31 | prpplague | landley: main thing is that the case is mostly empty |
| 22:26.37 | prpplague | landley: so lots of space for custom pc |
| 22:26.38 | prpplague | pcb |
| 22:26.46 | prpplague | landley: and best of all the price is right |
| 22:26.50 | prpplague | landley: less than $30 |
| 22:26.58 | landley | prpplague: cute. |
| 22:27.09 | prpplague | you can find some chinesse knock offs on ebay |
| 22:27.13 | prpplague | for around $10 |
| 22:27.17 | landley | Possibly if you contact the upstream vendor and want to buy 100 of the suckers gutted, they might be willing to sell 'em to you? |
| 22:27.21 | prpplague | and some of the dollar stores sell them |
| 22:27.24 | landley | Yay chinesse knock-offs. |
| 22:27.28 | ds2 | heh $10 for someone to sell you a chassis |
| 22:27.39 | landley | Assuming nobody's stomping obvious patents and working around it, maybe you can make a deal with the upstream manufacturer of that. |
| 22:27.41 | MonMotha | landley: more like 1000, and only if they're chinese |
| 22:27.42 | prpplague | landley: vtach and oregon scientific absolutely will not even discuss the idea |
| 22:27.46 | landley | (It's an empty, gutted laptop.) |
| 22:27.52 | MonMotha | 100 isn't likely worth it to them, perhaps 500+ |
| 22:27.53 | prpplague | landley: it would have to be a chinesse knock off |
| 22:28.11 | landley | Yay chineese knock-off. What's the smallest amount they'd be interested in selling? |
| 22:28.19 | MonMotha | there's just not enough money to be made selling 100 pieces of plastic, even if there's no tooling |
| 22:28.24 | prpplague | probably like MonMotha said, around 500 |
| 22:28.58 | landley | If you had the hammer variant with 256 megs of ram, you'd have a decent OLPC alternative. |
| 22:29.05 | landley | How _big_ are these cases? |
| 22:29.17 | landley | And how difficult would battery charging logic be? |
| 22:29.18 | MonMotha | I'm guessing big enough to fit my ARM9 board in :) |
| 22:29.22 | prpplague | landley: about the same size as an eeepc |
| 22:29.30 | prpplague | landley: and we have the sledge hammer |
| 22:29.33 | CosmicPenguin | except you wouldn't have a 2D accelerator or FPU |
| 22:29.39 | prpplague | landley: which would be a better options for the laptop |
| 22:29.46 | landley | wonders what would be involved in cramming all the unused space in the case with batteries, and trying to do like the old TRS-80 model 100 did... :) |
| 22:29.46 | ds2 | prpplague: is the LCD that comes with those things reusable? |
| 22:29.47 | MonMotha | well, in theory the processor on my ARM9 has a 2D accelerator |
| 22:29.59 | MonMotha | though much of it is documented in the errata as completely non-functional |
| 22:30.09 | landley | The TRS-80 model 100 stayed in use for something like 20 years in places. |
| 22:30.16 | landley | Nothing else could run so long off of double-A's... |
| 22:30.21 | landley | Even _without_ charging logic... |
| 22:30.23 | ds2 | CosmicPenguin: fine throw in a ARM11 with VFP :P |
| 22:30.37 | CosmicPenguin | tell hammer boy that |
| 22:30.44 | ds2 | hehe |
| 22:30.45 | prpplague | ds2: it can be, but in all of my laptop mods i've replaced the lcd with various sizes and options |
| 22:30.50 | landley | prpplague; partly I'm thinking "another way to drive down costs on hammer by upping volume"... |
| 22:31.10 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 22:31.23 | ds2 | throw in a TI 35xx and it should really give the OLPC a run |
| 22:31.40 | landley | Even if the display is just black and white 2 color, with no backlight, for email and text editing running for a day or two off of a pair of double-A's... |
| 22:31.51 | ds2 | 35xx @ 500MHz out clocks the OLPC and has a FPU + a lot ofother stuff and can last reasonably long on AA's |
| 22:32.00 | landley | I'm not thinking students, I'm thinking things like journalists and researchers. |
| 22:32.07 | CosmicPenguin | that doesn't outclock the OLPC |
| 22:32.18 | ds2 | though the OLPC runs at 433MHz? |
| 22:32.21 | CosmicPenguin | 533 |
| 22:32.26 | ds2 | hmmmm |
| 22:32.29 | CosmicPenguin | oh, wait - it does |
| 22:32.32 | landley | shrugs. |
| 22:32.33 | landley | Just a thought. |
| 22:32.37 | CosmicPenguin | it is 433 |
| 22:32.39 | Crofton | and AMD uses faster clocks per clock |
| 22:32.42 | ds2 | the 533 is the pepper pad. |
| 22:32.50 | prpplague | landley: blue hat is a chinesse brand - http://cgi.ebay.com/Blue-Hat-Teach-Talk-Activity-Laptop-NEW-MSRP-54-99_W0QQitemZ260224891739QQihZ016QQcategoryZ2518QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting |
| 22:32.55 | ds2 | but the AMD burns more power |
| 22:33.01 | prpplague | landley: you can usually get them wholesale for $7.99 |
| 22:33.07 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, about a watt or so |
| 22:33.28 | ds2 | does the OLPC offer NTSC out? |
| 22:33.50 | prpplague | landley: well its completely doable |
| 22:34.02 | CosmicPenguin | short answer - yes |
| 22:34.07 | prpplague | landley: mine with a 128x64 mono display will last weeks on 4xAA |
| 22:34.08 | CosmicPenguin | long answer - its complex |
| 22:34.17 | CosmicPenguin | it can easily drive NTSC timings and such |
| 22:34.26 | ds2 | in otherwords, I can't just get one and plug it into the TV |
| 22:34.29 | prpplague | landley: running a color lcd tends to draw more juice |
| 22:34.30 | CosmicPenguin | but the VOP out engine makes grown men cry |
| 22:34.49 | CosmicPenguin | some vendors have TV out dongles, but its not a standard option or anything |
| 22:34.52 | ds2 | CosmicPenguin: does that still require a final chip like the Chrontel stuff? |
| 22:34.58 | landley | prpplague: heh, you know if you could cram that sucker full of say 32 AA's, but hook them up in such a way that you only needed a few of them. (Like DRAM slots, you can install them in pairs, as many or as few as you like...) |
| 22:35.14 | landley | That way people who didn't mind the weight could have a week of battery life... :) |
| 22:35.36 | ds2 | landley: there are people that'd be happy with a full day's worth of power! |
| 22:35.48 | prpplague | landley: yea, it all depends on the type of batteries you get, with 4xAA at 2800mAh it runs along time |
| 22:35.59 | landley | prpplague: backlit LCD. |
| 22:36.07 | landley | Although the backlight should have its own on/off button. |
| 22:36.07 | prpplague | landley: yea one sec |
| 22:36.39 | RobotGuy | prpplague: IT BOOTS! 26608 RAM free. :D |
| 22:36.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy: fun fun |
| 22:37.01 | prpplague | landley: http://store.earthlcd.com/ACX705AKM-7-ACX705AKM7?sc=7&category=193 |
| 22:37.05 | landley | remembers installing 4 8-bit simms into 386dx. :) |
| 22:37.07 | prpplague | landley: thats my current favorite |
| 22:37.15 | prpplague | landley: its low power, nice and crisp |
| 22:37.20 | landley | Installing the batteries in groups of 4 is no problem if you color the slots or something. |
| 22:37.35 | prpplague | landley: not giant resolution, but it does what i need such as emails, web and irc |
| 22:37.43 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Now to figure out how to put all this into a tutorial form. That will be a little interesting because I have to tell how to get the various values required for commands. |
| 22:38.04 | landley | prpplague: no go, that's 31x20 chars at 8x8 font. |
| 22:38.15 | landley | You need 80 chars across. |
| 22:38.28 | landley | Minimum resolution 640x480 for text mode. |
| 22:38.52 | landley | If you can't do 80 chars across, you'll lose some people. |
| 22:38.52 | prpplague | landley: ahh |
| 22:38.59 | CosmicPenguin | I agree |
| 22:39.13 | landley | (Although the blackberry and such have conditioned acceptance of less, but you'll come across as a different category of device.) |
| 22:39.31 | landley | 80x25 display is a general purpose computer. Less is not. |
| 22:39.36 | landley | It's a psychological thing. |
| 22:39.46 | landley | (For the same reason people in movies shoot the monitor to stop the processing.) |
| 22:40.16 | prpplague | landley: yea, going about 320x240 tends to create a problem as that is where the price break happens |
| 22:40.33 | prpplague | landley: 640x480 and 800x600 lcd's are usually pretty expensive |
| 22:40.34 | landley | Alas, there's a reason for it... |
| 22:40.41 | landley | Even black and white ones? |
| 22:40.43 | prpplague | landley: mainly demand |
| 22:40.59 | prpplague | landley: 1024x768 is actually cheaper than a 640x480 |
| 22:41.09 | landley | Due to volume, I expect. |
| 22:41.19 | prpplague | yea |
| 22:41.26 | landley | How cheap is the cheapest 1024x768 display? (Possibly black and white, not even gray scale.) |
| 22:42.03 | prpplague | landley: thats not the problem, problem is that the bandwidth to do the lcd controler is stretched to the limit at 800x600 |
| 22:42.18 | prpplague | landley: with 640x480 being the real practical max |
| 22:42.42 | prpplague | landley: you'd have to get a third party lcd controller to do anything above 640x480 |
| 22:42.59 | landley | If that's cheaper than buying the smaller display... |
| 22:43.33 | prpplague | landley: same lcd as in the tuxscreen - http://store.earthlcd.com/EDMGRB8KJF?sc=7&category=148 |
| 22:43.38 | prpplague | landley: we can get that in bulk |
| 22:43.54 | prpplague | landley: oops, gotta head home |
| 22:43.58 | prpplague | bbiab |
| 22:44.03 | SpeedEvil | 1024*768 8 bit grayscale is as easy to drive as 640*480*24 |
| 22:44.23 | SpeedEvil | at least from a hammer-type device with 32 byte wide memory it works. |
| 22:48.15 | landley | Alas, even $80 for a display is too much... |
| 22:48.38 | SpeedEvil | PSP LCD $30 |
| 22:49.03 | SpeedEvil | 480*272 though |
| 22:52.47 | RobotGuy | landley: $49.95 wouldn't be bad for a raw color display. |
| 22:56.27 | landley | 480/8 pixels is 22 chars. |
| 22:56.33 | landley | That's the text resolution of a vic-20. |
| 22:56.43 | landley | I do wanna read email on that. |
| 22:56.44 | SpeedEvil | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:57.04 | landley | Nor would I want to compose an AP news wire dispatch from deepest darkest bolivia where the electric lines got blown up weeks ago. |
| 22:57.14 | SpeedEvil | Also - 480/8 = 60 |
| 22:57.25 | landley | You're right. |
| 22:57.29 | landley | (End of the day, can't do math. :) |
| 22:57.41 | SpeedEvil | 480/6=80 |
| 22:57.54 | landley | If you can get a decent 5 pixel wide font... |
| 22:58.00 | landley | (I've vaguely heard there are some...) |
| 22:58.18 | SpeedEvil | that's 10/11 by 6 |
| 22:58.23 | SpeedEvil | which isn't really unreasonable. |
| 22:58.41 | landley | Yeah, I vaguely recall soem 5 pixel by 9 pixel fonts somewhere... |
| 22:59.22 | SpeedEvil | yeah - that leaves quite some room for tabs and stuff. |
| 22:59.41 | landley | http://www.bestflashanimationsite.com/pixel-fonts/1/ |
| 23:01.17 | landley | As long as you can get 80 chars to hit the psychological point... |
| 23:03.50 | landley | Dinner time. |
| 23:04.00 | SpeedEvil | wave |
| 23:04.24 | *** part/#edev landley (n=landley@adsl-68-93-84-18.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 23:24.15 | RobotGuy | These dependencies with Buildroot always frustrate me. Now I have to figure out what thinks it needs udev. |
| 23:31.59 | RobotGuy | I restarted back to a known config |
| 23:39.29 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:45.14 | *** join/#edev linac (n=lin@121.41.70.30) |
