| 00:00.00 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I also turned off all support for initramfs and initrd and ramdisk. |
| 00:00.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy can you pastebin your config |
| 00:00.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy i'm guessing you've got one of the nessary block drivers turned off |
| 00:00.42 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It's easier to e-mail it, but you haven't been getting my e-mails. :( |
| 00:01.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy no i get them, just 12 hours later |
| 00:01.40 | RobotGuy | prpplague: MTD_BLOCK and MTD_BLOCKDEVS are ON |
| 00:01.52 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That isn't fast enough though. |
| 00:02.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy you can try sending it to danders@amltd.com |
| 00:03.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy why don't you do a diff between the default config and the new config |
| 00:03.05 | prpplague | RobotGuy and just post that |
| 00:03.05 | ds2 | hmmmmm |
| 00:03.20 | ds2 | f7000201 <-- isn't that in the magic glibc/libc area? |
| 00:03.36 | prpplague | landley i feel the need to watch the doc this evening |
| 00:03.57 | landley | what doc? |
| 00:04.10 | prpplague | ~lart landley |
| 00:04.10 | purl | puts landley through a wood chipper |
| 00:04.13 | prpplague | the only doc |
| 00:04.19 | landley | Doctor who? |
| 00:04.22 | prpplague | hehe yea |
| 00:04.24 | landley | Emmet Browne? |
| 00:04.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: |
| 00:04.25 | RobotGuy | Top Recent Donations |
| 00:04.25 | RobotGuy | Anonymous: $100.00 |
| 00:04.25 | RobotGuy | Roger W Turner: $50.00 |
| 00:04.25 | RobotGuy | Tomasz Chmielewski: $19.79 |
| 00:04.28 | landley | Well you have to specify. |
| 00:04.32 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 00:04.39 | prpplague | landley hehe |
| 00:04.43 | prpplague | landley just teasing |
| 00:04.43 | landley | Coulda been bugs bunny's invisible friend. |
| 00:04.49 | *** join/#edev ccjoe (n=ccjoe@75-169-37-101.slkc.qwest.net) |
| 00:04.49 | RobotGuy | DanG |
| 00:05.02 | prpplague | RobotGuy flood protection |
| 00:05.02 | landley | (P.S. Both the sixth and seventh doctors objected to being called "doc".) |
| 00:05.11 | RobotGuy | SORRY |
| 00:05.12 | prpplague | landley indeed |
| 00:05.24 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/971818 |
| 00:05.31 | ds2 | landley: like either of them lasted long |
| 00:05.49 | landley | The sixth doctor lasted rather a long time. |
| 00:06.00 | landley | You forget he spent 18 months on hiatus, and that trial of a time lord was an entire season. :) |
| 00:06.03 | RobotGuy | I get to go see a neurologist next month |
| 00:06.17 | ds2 | :P |
| 00:06.30 | ds2 | compared to the 4th doctor, they were all short timers :P |
| 00:07.19 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Will buildroot use the right compiler if its toolchain is later in my PATH? |
| 00:07.56 | RobotGuy | knows landley does not use buildroot. :) |
| 00:08.41 | prpplague | RobotGuy which every one is first in the path gets used |
| 00:08.50 | RobotGuy | is short with lots of time |
| 00:08.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy can you do a diff on the two configs? |
| 00:09.10 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Well, that sucks, because I want to build for my PC and Hammer. |
| 00:09.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy diff -urN Hammer-config .config > hammer.diff |
| 00:09.22 | prpplague | RobotGuy ?? |
| 00:09.46 | prpplague | RobotGuy why would it interfer with your x86 compile? |
| 00:10.46 | prpplague | RobotGuy i've never seen someone have soooo much trouble with their kernel config |
| 00:10.53 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@12.190.142.202) |
| 00:10.53 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 00:10.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin greeeeeeetings |
| 00:11.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin diaper duty this evening? |
| 00:11.12 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/971824 |
| 00:11.18 | RobotGuy | is getting a complex |
| 00:11.21 | CosmicPenguin | no, I'm stll at the coreboot summit |
| 00:11.26 | CosmicPenguin | hacking away |
| 00:11.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy uh you do have a Hammer-config file right? |
| 00:12.40 | prpplague | because from the looks of that diff, you don't |
| 00:12.52 | RobotGuy | hammer-config |
| 00:14.17 | prpplague | RobotGuy diff -urN hammer-config .config > hammer.diff |
| 00:15.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin oh you are traveling eh |
| 00:15.10 | CosmicPenguin | no - the conference is in denver |
| 00:15.12 | CosmicPenguin | so lucky there |
| 00:15.21 | prpplague | ahhhhh |
| 00:15.23 | RobotGuy | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/971826 |
| 00:16.41 | ds2 | you doing IPSEC? |
| 00:17.28 | RobotGuy | I can't even do IPFIRST |
| 00:17.45 | ds2 | odd that you have the transforms turned on |
| 00:18.00 | RobotGuy | They were already ON |
| 00:18.11 | RobotGuy | (I think) |
| 00:18.24 | prpplague | lord lordy where do i begin |
| 00:18.34 | RobotGuy | !(I think) = POOF |
| 00:19.04 | prpplague | do you really have an ps2 AT keyboard attached to the hammer board? |
| 00:19.17 | RobotGuy | prpplague: No. That should be off |
| 00:19.25 | RobotGuy | I want to get a stow away |
| 00:19.28 | prpplague | do you really have a stowaway keyboard attached to the hammer board? |
| 00:19.31 | ds2 | does the hammer board have a PS/2 port? :) |
| 00:19.38 | prpplague | ds2 no |
| 00:19.50 | RobotGuy | I want to GET a stow away, and an LCD for Hammer. |
| 00:20.05 | prpplague | when you get a stowaway turn that on |
| 00:20.11 | ds2 | cool, prehaps RobotGuy should publish the schematics for adding a PS/2 port then ;) j/k |
| 00:20.19 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I will forget if I don't do it now. |
| 00:20.35 | RobotGuy | ds2: Isn't it your nap time? ;) |
| 00:20.45 | ds2 | <G> |
| 00:20.47 | prpplague | RobotGuy if you turn on for things you don't have, the probe will fail and do lots of fun stuff like generate oops results |
| 00:20.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Why does it do that> |
| 00:21.12 | RobotGuy | sighs |
| 00:21.26 | RobotGuy | If it isn't there it should just be ignored. |
| 00:21.31 | prpplague | do you really have a pc game port? |
| 00:21.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have a PC Joystick. I have not wired a game port up yet. |
| 00:22.01 | ds2 | prpplague: isn't that the same setting for supporting a USB game port |
| 00:22.28 | prpplague | RobotGuy no |
| 00:22.32 | prpplague | ds2 no |
| 00:22.41 | RobotGuy | No to what? |
| 00:22.52 | prpplague | that was for ds2 |
| 00:23.19 | RobotGuy | NVM, I'll turn bunches of stuff off |
| 00:24.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy there are way toooooo many things that could be a problem |
| 00:24.30 | prpplague | RobotGuy i see 20+ items |
| 00:26.37 | prpplague | RobotGuy i keep telling you, the only way to effectively do this type of work is ONLY turn it on when you have that device or you start working on that device |
| 00:27.02 | SpeedEvil | Or to first do a bare build, then turn on all the crap you want. |
| 00:27.17 | prpplague | SpeedEvil thats what he did |
| 00:27.24 | SpeedEvil | DEbugging things with huge amounts in them is horrible |
| 00:27.25 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 00:27.33 | prpplague | SpeedEvil but he turned on soooo many things, no clue which one broke |
| 00:27.40 | SpeedEvil | Yeah - but if you have it sane, you can binary chop it out |
| 00:28.02 | SpeedEvil | Sorry - I'm losing context as I have teeny window. |
| 00:28.12 | prpplague | RobotGuy and just a note, the i2c and spi drivers are worthless for what you want to do |
| 00:28.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy no need to even turn them on |
| 00:28.40 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I am going to USE I2C and SPI |
| 00:29.14 | prpplague | RobotGuy but what you want to use i2c and spi for, you'll need to do a custom kernel driver, or access it via user land |
| 00:30.26 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have FIVE different I2C devices to write code for. |
| 00:30.40 | RobotGuy | And a few SPI chips I want to use. |
| 00:31.24 | RobotGuy | Nobody is going to want any driver code I write, and I currently have no idea about writing Linux drivers. |
| 00:31.31 | ds2 | I am wondering if it is worthwhile to write up a 'make hammerconfig' to only present things that is known to work on the Hammer? |
| 00:31.52 | ds2 | RobotGuy: do it in userspace, loose less hair that way |
| 00:31.57 | RobotGuy | ds2: If nobody has used it how is it known to work or not work? |
| 00:32.25 | prpplague | RobotGuy which is exactly why i said the i2c and spi options won't do you an good |
| 00:32.45 | prpplague | ds2 thats not practical as there are many many things you can create |
| 00:32.53 | ds2 | RobotGuy: it'll access a database of known working options |
| 00:33.41 | ds2 | prpplague: I am not complaining about RobotGuy but there seems to be a general thing with presenting 3419032838409328490238490238409238 options to people who are not very familiar with Linux kernel options and their potential side effects |
| 00:33.43 | RobotGuy | You already know the chances of getting a kernel patch taken in, and you know what you are doing. What would be MY chances? Probably ZERO, so why should I try writing a kernel driver? |
| 00:34.09 | ds2 | RobotGuy: it is not that hard to get a patch accepted, despite what you have heard here :) |
| 00:34.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy who says you have to submit a patch |
| 00:34.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy i think you don't understand what the i2c and spi driver options do |
| 00:34.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Why take the time to learn how to write a driver, write the driver, test it, etc if it's not got a chance of getting IN to the kernel. |
| 00:35.05 | SpeedEvil | Submit a patch, get comments on it, either accept the comments and resubmit, or hope that someone'll pick up the patch later, and style fix it. |
| 00:35.18 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It's drivers for the HARDWARE. |
| 00:35.20 | prpplague | RobotGuy which is exactly my point i keep trying to make to you |
| 00:35.39 | prpplague | RobotGuy what do you think the i2c and spi options do? |
| 00:35.42 | ds2 | and always submit at the lowest point and let the maintainer of each sub-sub-sub-(...)-system fight the battles for you ;) |
| 00:36.26 | RobotGuy | This Linux embedded thing is turning out to be way more difficult than I had thought it would, and I AM NOT a stupid person. |
| 00:36.55 | ohsix | it's not that hard, it's just PCs have busses and all those niceties :] |
| 00:36.58 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@12.190.142.202) |
| 00:36.58 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 00:37.09 | RobotGuy | The kernel I2C and SPI drivers are for HARDWARE, including the Hammer I2C and SPI hardware. |
| 00:37.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy and what does it provide when you turn it on? |
| 00:37.46 | ohsix | they're just a driver infrastructure, you still need the BSP stuff for peripherals or a deal to discover them on the platform |
| 00:37.51 | prpplague | RobotGuy how do you talk to the i2c or spi drivers that you turn on? |
| 00:37.53 | RobotGuy | Drivers for the Hardware |
| 00:38.10 | prpplague | RobotGuy all they do is enable the i2c and spi interfaces from inside the kernel |
| 00:38.10 | RobotGuy | I;m just learning this! I DO NOT KNOW yet, |
| 00:38.19 | prpplague | RobotGuy its like turning on the USB port |
| 00:38.36 | prpplague | RobotGuy just because you have a usb port doesn't mean you have a driver for your bluetooth dongle |
| 00:38.52 | RobotGuy | thinks about just going back to bare-metal programming and dumping Linux |
| 00:39.15 | ohsix | you can do that too :] |
| 00:39.38 | RobotGuy | I already have ZERO confidence and more than one complex. I gotta go now. |
| 00:39.51 | prpplague | jeeze |
| 00:40.09 | prpplague | i think he stays in his house way too much |
| 00:40.22 | ohsix | heh |
| 00:40.31 | prpplague | i don't know how many times i;ve had this conversation with him |
| 00:42.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin and i that difficult to understand when i try to explain these concepts? |
| 00:43.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin yea yea hold the jokes |
| 00:43.34 | ohsix | he seemed to be stuck on some PC preconceptions |
| 00:44.21 | ds2 | go go x86 embedded! |
| 00:44.41 | ohsix | if i'm not mistaken the help entries for all those options say they're just a framework too, at least thats where i read about em first :] |
| 00:44.44 | *** join/#edev cajaka (n=none@cpe-24-58-193-200.twcny.res.rr.com) |
| 00:45.31 | ds2 | or just turn them all on, let it break, pepper code with printk's, and iterate |
| 00:46.41 | ohsix | only a make allyesconfig away |
| 00:49.03 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@69.73.220.145) |
| 00:50.33 | *** join/#edev MonMotha (n=monmotha@c-69-245-153-193.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 00:53.46 | prpplague | indeed |
| 00:55.58 | prpplague | i just think its common sense, config A works, turn on 40 options, config b doesn't work |
| 00:56.05 | prpplague | which of the 40 options did it? |
| 00:56.20 | prpplague | config A works, turn on 1 option, config b doesn't work |
| 00:56.30 | prpplague | which of the 1 options did it? |
| 00:57.41 | ohsix | when i was figuring all that stuff out i started with turning everything off one by one & reading what they were in Documentation/ and stuff, by the time you "need" something, you can find it and turn it on :] |
| 00:58.15 | GPSFan | prpplague: I think he is missing some of the fundamental concepts of embedded development. he has one success, (jffs2 booting) and juimps to the conclusion that everything will work if he then enables all the features he thinks he may ever need. His comment about dumping linux and going back to monolithic code is revealing. |
| 00:58.34 | prpplague | GPSFan agreed |
| 00:59.06 | prpplague | GPSFan call me weird, but i want to understand that point of view so i can make the hammer build better |
| 00:59.14 | GPSFan | prpplague: I wonder how many years of linux exposure (not even development) he has. |
| 01:00.14 | GPSFan | prpplague: he has great interest and enthusiasm, properly directed he could be a great asset to the hammer program. |
| 01:00.23 | prpplague | GPSFan only a couple and only on the desktop |
| 01:00.31 | prpplague | GPSFan which he has problems with |
| 01:00.47 | prpplague | GPSFan he switched distros like 8 times in the last 2 months |
| 01:01.01 | ohsix | dead end syndrome |
| 01:01.16 | ohsix | x doesn't do y, surely z might |
| 01:01.37 | ds2 | distros are evil. everyone needs to start from a root disk and build their own system |
| 01:01.56 | SpeedEvil | toggle in the OS from the front panel! |
| 01:02.26 | GPSFan | prpplague: I was doing all my devel on knoppix 3.3 till I installed ubuntu 6.06 when it came out, I've just brought up a 7.10 box so I can see how bad they broke it for embedded devel. |
| 01:02.55 | prpplague | indeed |
| 01:02.59 | prpplague | GPSFan however |
| 01:03.03 | GPSFan | that's 3 distribution changes (well I still use 6.06 mostly) in 7 years |
| 01:03.13 | prpplague | GPSFan i can help him and solve problems as long as the base doesn't change |
| 01:03.27 | ohsix | i still use my original slackware 7.1 install every day |
| 01:03.41 | prpplague | GPSFan if i solve 10 problems on ubuntu and then he switches to fedora and i have 10 other problems, i've gotten no where |
| 01:04.01 | GPSFan | prpplague: that's the real problem, when he goes off and re-does .config with out a clue how to debug his resulting mess. |
| 01:04.11 | ds2 | SLS or BUST ;) |
| 01:04.23 | prpplague | i know people have to try hard to not vomit, but i really like redhat 9 as an embedded dev distro |
| 01:04.39 | prpplague | GPSFan yea |
| 01:04.43 | GPSFan | wipes up the mess. |
| 01:04.50 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:05.07 | GPSFan | ;>) if it works for you go for it. I still boot up knoppix 3.3 top do some stuff. |
| 01:05.21 | prpplague | okie dokie, now, i've decided that a bag of discounted easter chocolate and beer don't seem to go together |
| 01:05.30 | MonMotha | you know, I do embedded development on Debian. it works very well |
| 01:05.37 | MonMotha | there's even a handy-dandy repo of cross toolchains |
| 01:05.44 | ohsix | i have chroots for other distros now, over vmware or booting them :] |
| 01:05.45 | GPSFan | prpplague: no, but good chocolat and good beer do. |
| 01:05.53 | prpplague | right now i'm using fc7 and it required a bit of tweaking to do dev |
| 01:05.57 | ohsix | debootstrap is very handy |
| 01:06.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:06.14 | prpplague | GPSFan well this was 90% marked down |
| 01:06.29 | prpplague | GPSFan maybe its the cajun food i had a lunch |
| 01:06.40 | GPSFan | 10% good |
| 01:07.00 | prpplague | GPSFan but i have to admit, i remember back when i started with the vr3 and tuxscreen |
| 01:07.03 | GPSFan | oops cajun + chocolate = hartburn. |
| 01:07.09 | prpplague | thing seemed very complicated |
| 01:07.26 | prpplague | GPSFan wife + paycheck = heartburn |
| 01:07.34 | GPSFan | indeed I fretted for weeks to get a toolchain that would compile the tuxscreen buildroot. |
| 01:08.15 | GPSFan | once I found one that I could duplicate (via buildroot) I kept that config for years. |
| 01:08.29 | prpplague | hehe indeed |
| 01:09.09 | prpplague | said to say, i remember clearly the day when the purpose of HAL finally became clear to me |
| 01:09.22 | prpplague | s/said/sad |
| 01:09.26 | GPSFan | I never use the latest buildroot/busybox unless I have an earlier config/toolchain/release working in a seperat disk partition. |
| 01:09.37 | prpplague | GPSFan same here |
| 01:09.54 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@12.190.142.202) |
| 01:09.55 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 01:09.59 | GPSFan | "I'm better now ... Dave.. |
| 01:10.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin hey crack daddy |
| 01:10.06 | prpplague | GPSFan hehe |
| 01:10.15 | GPSFan | cul, time for some tv... |
| 01:10.39 | prpplague | oh what time does battlestar come on tonight? |
| 01:13.15 | prpplague | decides to follow GPSFan's example and go watch tv |
| 01:43.08 | Mirell | is already tyhere |
| 01:43.13 | Mirell | Er, there. |
| 01:43.23 | Mirell | also curses lack of Sci-Fi HD |
| 02:00.48 | Mirell | zomg |
| 02:00.49 | Mirell | Time! |
| 02:56.22 | *** join/#edev chouimat (n=dieu@kde/developer/chouinard) |
| 03:15.40 | *** join/#edev dfarnsworth (n=dfarnswo@65.200.49.156) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:15.40 | *** join/#edev ds2 (i=noinf@netblock-66-245-251-24.dslextreme.com) |
| 03:23.44 | *** join/#edev jkridner (n=jason@c-76-31-18-64.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:23.44 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:44.31 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) |
| 05:47.31 | *** join/#edev linac (n=lin@121.41.70.30) |
| 06:00.47 | *** join/#edev drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07D6F5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:39.34 | *** join/#edev emil|k (i=emil@e179237152.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 07:05.21 | *** join/#edev magnetron (n=magnetro@unaffiliated/magnetron) |
| 07:31.59 | *** join/#edev roxfan (n=dunno@249.215-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 07:54.39 | *** join/#edev DrZimmerman (n=theo@tbaumgartner.broker.freenet6.net) |
| 08:15.29 | *** join/#edev lyakh (n=lyakh@p57BD0ACE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 10:21.10 | *** join/#edev drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07EA22.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:36.52 | *** join/#edev ali_as (n=as@ambix.plus.com) |
| 10:38.26 | *** join/#edev [AD]Turbo (n=turbo@host131-128-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 10:39.49 | [AD]Turbo | hi there |
| 12:20.05 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@82-32-35-42.cable.ubr05.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 12:32.22 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@82-32-35-42.cable.ubr05.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:32.22 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:32.22 | *** join/#edev jkridner (n=jason@c-76-31-18-64.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:32.23 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:42.29 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@82-32-35-42.cable.ubr05.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 12:42.58 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:42.59 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:54.14 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:54.15 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:58.45 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 12:58.45 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:00.01 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 13:00.02 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:00.02 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:02.44 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:02.44 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:02.44 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:03.33 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:03.33 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:03.33 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:07.12 | *** join/#edev sneak (n=sneak@64.220.234.21) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:07.12 | *** join/#edev Dr{Who} (n=mathewss@dev.null.nutech.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:07.12 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 13:21.18 | *** join/#edev GPSFan (n=kenm@12.10.255.246) |
| 13:21.18 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 13:26.09 | *** part/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@70.244.160.94) |
| 14:18.37 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:12.04 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@12.190.142.202) |
| 15:12.04 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 15:15.49 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 15:16.44 | *** join/#edev emil|k (i=emil@e179239009.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 16:17.30 | *** join/#edev adyer (n=adyer@adsl-69-223-13-78.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) |
| 16:20.26 | adyer | hi all - anybody play with UBI and UBIFS (flash filesystem) yet? If so, how did it work? |
| 16:22.59 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-3987.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 16:39.59 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-2758.chameleon.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 17:58.50 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-160-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 18:01.00 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@216.110.109.2) |
| 18:11.14 | *** join/#edev prpplague^2 (n=dave123_@70.244.160.94) |
| 18:26.00 | *** join/#edev nhoman (n=homann@89.100.83.14) |
| 19:03.33 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-1157.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 20:06.19 | *** join/#edev Sienna (n=Sienna@pool-71-125-185-199.bltmmd.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:41.42 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-1157.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 20:53.12 | *** join/#edev landley (n=landley@24-155-229-81.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 20:53.12 | *** mode/#edev [+o landley] by ChanServ |
| 21:28.14 | landley | Quiet today. :) |
| 21:31.07 | Sienna | Hey landley |
| 21:33.57 | landley | Hi sienna. |
| 21:34.00 | landley | How goes stuffness? |
| 21:34.06 | landley | Oh, hang on, you do robots... |
| 21:34.11 | Sienna | ? |
| 21:34.40 | landley | The cutest robot I have ever seen: http://jwz.livejournal.com/852741.html |
| 21:39.35 | Sienna | That is cute!!! *snuggles the little robot* |
| 21:39.51 | Sienna | and it actually has a sense of rythm too :D |
| 21:40.08 | landley | Yup. :) |
| 21:40.40 | Sienna | but, more then 10 minutes of it, and I would prolly tell it to shush, because mommy wants to read a book :P |
| 21:41.11 | Sienna | (which is what I have been doing, besides laundary, most of the day!) |
| 21:41.14 | Sienna | how about you? |
| 22:15.00 | landley | I read a bit last night, but mostly I'm enjoying being back in Austin instead of Houston. |
| 22:15.26 | landley | Hanging out at the local 24 hour coffee shop with my laptop, having fun and trying to catch up on the internet. |
| 22:16.13 | landley | (Plus working on my cross compile envrionment, and a website, and writing up a big "convention running HOWTO" thing for the new one I'm launch in fall 2009. |
| 22:16.42 | landley | I'm no longer directly involved in http://penguicon.org, and Linucon didn't last when I moved out of Austin for a year. |
| 22:17.03 | landley | Now that I'm back in Austin, there's no combination linux expo and science fiction convention held localy, and I need to rectify that. |
| 22:17.39 | landley | (It's far too early for _specific_ plans. I mean by the time we arranged to invite Vent Cerf and give him gift certificates good for one cheeseburger for every member of the ICANN board, it may already have been done...) |
| 22:19.22 | landley | Sienna: which book? |
| 22:34.31 | ali_as | Raising a robot the Dr Spock way? |
| 22:34.37 | Sienna | The Amber spyglass |
| 22:34.50 | Sienna | thats a lot of work on linux landley! |
| 22:35.52 | ali_as | Is that a phillip pullman? |
| 22:35.58 | Sienna | i think |
| 22:36.21 | Sienna | how are you this evening ali_as? |
| 22:36.56 | ali_as | switches to conversation mode, simpler answers and outright lying. |
| 22:37.10 | ali_as | I'm doing well and my programs are working perfectly. |
| 22:38.07 | Sienna | conversation mode eh? |
| 22:38.28 | Sienna | well, its good to hear you are doing well and everything is going wonderfully! :D |
| 22:38.33 | ali_as | I've read northern lights, fairly spectacular but the target age annoyed me a lot, like with terry pratchetts childrens books. |
| 22:39.11 | landley | Amber spyglass sounds familiar, but I haven't read it. |
| 22:39.21 | Sienna | the only northern lights i know are the aurora |
| 22:39.28 | landley | has been re-reading old books as I unpack them from boxes. |
| 22:39.36 | ali_as | Yupyupyup. |
| 22:39.51 | landley | Alas, Christopher Stasheff has not held up well over the years. |
| 22:39.58 | Sienna | yay for unpacking! Its such a chore, but feels good when its all done |
| 22:40.14 | ali_as | For some reason in the US the book seems to be called 'The golden compass', or possibly thats the name for the trilogy. |
| 22:40.21 | landley | The last time I had all my boxes fully unpacked was 1999. |
| 22:40.29 | landley | I've moved a half dozen times since then. |
| 22:40.46 | landley | It's a bit like christmas at times. "Ooh wow, I'd forgotten I had that!" |
| 22:41.02 | landley | Also a lot of "why do I have three copies of this book and two copies of that shirt?" |
| 22:41.08 | Sienna | ah yes ali_as, the first book of the series was the golden compass |
| 22:41.38 | Sienna | three copies of a book? I take it you don't mean hardcover, softcover, and RD versions |
| 22:41.56 | ali_as | It's definitly called 'Northern lights' in the UK, which I think is a better name. |
| 22:43.16 | ali_as | Harry potter and the philosophers stone was called 'Harry potter and the sourcerers stone' in the US. I don't get that either, but then I don't read potter books. |
| 22:44.11 | ali_as | One tech question Sienna, you mentioned the pico itx board, which is insanly powerful for the size, but seems to have next to no connectivity, how would you use something like that in a robot? |
| 22:44.50 | Sienna | sec, dishes |
| 22:45.25 | landley | is sad that IMDB's general review of "The Dark is Rising" movie adaptation was "The worst adaptation from a book EVER". |
| 22:45.39 | landley | I thought it was still coming soon, but apparently it came out in October and sank without trace. |
| 22:45.48 | ali_as | My jaw dropped when I looked it up, but it turned out to be just a little pc with all the horrible IO problems of a regular size pc. |
| 22:46.07 | ali_as | Never heard of that, who was it by? |
| 22:46.12 | landley | Susan cooper. |
| 22:46.22 | landley | Excellent series of books, from the 1970's or so. |
| 22:46.37 | landley | The movie adaptation last year was a bad harry potter rip-off by a director who didn't like his source material. |
| 22:46.38 | landley | Sigh. |
| 22:49.14 | ali_as | I was going to say that never works, but then I thought of blade runner. |
| 22:49.25 | Sienna | sorry about that |
| 22:49.34 | Sienna | ali_as, depends on how you want to use it |
| 22:50.00 | Sienna | most people would put all of the abstract algorithms on the itx, and then send serial commands to actual interface boards |
| 22:50.09 | ali_as | My application is rather different, but say stepper motor drivers. |
| 22:50.12 | Sienna | have you seen the pico itx johnny five? |
| 22:50.24 | ali_as | No. |
| 22:50.25 | Sienna | what about steppers? |
| 22:50.42 | ali_as | How would you wire them to the board? |
| 22:51.09 | ali_as | I mean, it has one parallel port and after that it's all pretty high level. |
| 22:51.27 | Sienna | yes, thats the main problem with computers and robotics. |
| 22:51.42 | Sienna | Here is one project that integrated a pico itx with a serial line to a servo controller: |
| 22:51.42 | Sienna | http://www.lynxmotion.net/viewtopic.php?t=3004 |
| 22:52.24 | ali_as | My first computer was a BBC Micro, it had ports coming out of it's ears. Then everything went electronics experiement unfriendly. |
| 22:52.37 | Sienna | for stepper motors, you might need something like an http://www.phenostream.com/ openstepper, and an I2C to USB interface |
| 22:52.44 | Sienna | (look for one on acroname) |
| 22:52.55 | adyer | Sienna: that's the problem with PC's and robotics (for that matter PC's and anything except VGA/keyboard/mouse/audio) |
| 22:53.23 | Sienna | yes, it is. Which is why most of us have a slave processor for the actual 3.3V or 5V i/o |
| 22:53.28 | Sienna | and we talk serial to it |
| 22:54.00 | adyer | Sienna: until there are no more serial/parallel ports left :-( All hail USB! |
| 22:54.45 | Sienna | i had to buy a quad port serial card for my desktop to do tethering |
| 22:55.28 | Sienna | but then, even if you only have usb, you can get a chip like the hammer, which can act like a USB slave (or host) |
| 22:55.36 | adyer | Sienna: I have a 2s/1p card, but had to hack cygwin ioperm to talk to it - i/o ports were above 0x400 :-( |
| 22:56.27 | Sienna | :( |
| 22:56.55 | adyer | Sienna: USB makes simple things hard, but at least makes some harder things possible |
| 22:56.55 | Sienna | the other thing i looked at was: |
| 22:56.56 | Sienna | http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7800 |
| 22:57.34 | Sienna | that arm board is fast enought to do just about the same thing as a mini itx, and it has plenty of GPIO |
| 22:58.11 | Sienna | the PC104 form factor is too large for my tripod, but I am considering it for my tank |
| 23:00.24 | *** join/#edev ali_as_ (n=as@80.229.21.128) |
| 23:00.34 | Sienna | wb ali_as |
| 23:00.39 | ali_as_ | Something is very wrong with this wireless driver. |
| 23:00.42 | ali_as_ | Thanks. |
| 23:00.48 | ali_as_ | <Sienna> http://www.lynxmotion.net/viewtopic.php?t=3004 |
| 23:00.48 | ali_as_ | <ali_as> My first computer was a BBC Micro, it had ports coming out of it's ears. Then everything went electronics experiement unfriendly. |
| 23:02.22 | Sienna | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:02.22 | Sienna | [18:52] <Sienna> (look for one on acroname) |
| 23:03.11 | Sienna | <adyer> Sienna: that's the problem with PC's and robotics (for that matter PC's and anything except VGA/keyboard/mouse/audio) |
| 23:03.11 | Sienna | [18:53] <Sienna> yes, it is. Which is why most of us have a slave processor for the actual 3.3V or 5V i/o |
| 23:03.11 | Sienna | [18:53] <Sienna> and we talk serial to it |
| 23:03.11 | Sienna | [18:54] <adyer> Sienna: until there are no more serial/parallel ports left :-( All hail USB! |
| 23:03.11 | Sienna | [18:54] <Sienna> i had to buy a quad port serial card for my desktop to do tethering |
| 23:03.12 | Sienna | [18:55] <Sienna> but then, even if you only have usb, you can get a chip like the hammer, which can act like a USB slave (or host) |
| 23:03.33 | Sienna | that catch you up ali_as? |
| 23:05.01 | ali_as_ | Think so, thanks. |
| 23:05.53 | ali_as_ | I see, offload the io onto something like a microcontroller. |
| 23:06.04 | Sienna | yep |
| 23:06.27 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-1157.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:08.49 | ali_as_ | In many ways the robot might not need to card the motherboard at all though, it could just be wirelessly driven from a regular PC. |
| 23:09.08 | Sienna | thats also how a lot of 'tethered' robots come too! |
| 23:09.43 | ali_as_ | Ultra wideband should improve that field a lot. |
| 23:10.03 | Sienna | rf stuff is way over my head :( |
| 23:11.01 | ali_as_ | Actually, mine too, but I hate USB and like ethernet. |
| 23:11.40 | Sienna | they sell something called a matchport (iirc) that converts wifi to serial or something |
| 23:12.05 | ali_as_ | I'm hoping to find something like a hammer board with fast ethernet and some raw IO lines or a cpld. |
| 23:12.29 | Sienna | fast ethernet? Getting greedy :D |
| 23:12.56 | Sienna | how big is the bot you are interfacing the controller with? |
| 23:13.05 | adyer | Sienna: fast ethernet isn't too bad, davicom dm9000 is pretty good chip for it. We use it with ARM9 |
| 23:13.20 | ali_as_ | The board I bought for the job has an ARM7 at 60Mhz, 100Mbit ethernet, but actual performance is pretty dire. |
| 23:14.01 | Sienna | you really should expect 100MHz of traffic from a 60MHz cpu :P |
| 23:14.08 | ali_as_ | It's not a robot I'm building but a debugging interface, in a similar way though I need a lot of IO lines. |
| 23:14.25 | ali_as_ | Actually, yes. |
| 23:14.27 | adyer | ali_as all of the 'embedded' fast ethernet chips suffer from small buffers, SMC9xxx are particularly painful |
| 23:14.43 | Sienna | ali_as_, look at: http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7800 |
| 23:14.45 | ali_as_ | This is a dm9000 in fact. |
| 23:15.29 | adyer | ali_as trick is to use it in 32-bit mode to move stuff in/out fast |
| 23:15.35 | ali_as_ | Like 4k buffer, which could be part of the problem. The data sheets suggest 70Mbit full duplex with a 16bit bus. |
| 23:16.05 | ali_as_ | I'm getting 800k/second though. |
| 23:16.15 | ali_as_ | Just a download to /dev/null. |
| 23:17.24 | ali_as_ | Sienna, wow. |
| 23:18.56 | ali_as_ | adyer, I have the feeling my simtec board was not designed with performance in mind. |
| 23:19.18 | ali_as_ | But it has a cpld on it, which really helps. |
| 23:19.31 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:19.37 | adyer | ali_as: usually unit cost is #1 :-) |
| 23:19.45 | ali_as_ | If I can't get ethernet to a few megabytes a second though, I'm going to have to jump. |
| 23:19.57 | Sienna | hey RobotGuy |
| 23:20.25 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Hey there! |
| 23:20.27 | RobotGuy | Got Hammer booting from flash now and 25 MB RAM free |
| 23:21.01 | RobotGuy | I just got back from the PARTS (local robotics club) meeting a bit ago. |
| 23:22.17 | RobotGuy | www.portlandrobotics.org |
| 23:26.20 | Sienna | good for you having a local robot club! |
| 23:26.46 | RobotGuy | Sienna: It is really cool, for sure! |
| 23:26.57 | RobotGuy | There is a PARTS Yahoo Group. |
| 23:27.38 | Sienna | my dishwasher is so loud :( |
| 23:28.03 | RobotGuy | How is the Trippy little Tri-Pod? |
| 23:28.46 | Sienna | sitting forlorn, waiting for me to either start coding or for its accelerometer |
| 23:29.14 | *** join/#edev Appleman1234 (n=Appleman@CPE-60-231-78-185.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 23:29.22 | Sienna | i just really don't feeling like diggin up all my college books and looking at IK algorithms atm |
| 23:29.45 | RobotGuy | Sienna: There is actually C/C++ code for IK on the net. |
| 23:29.54 | Sienna | im sure there is ;P |
| 23:30.06 | adyer | Sienna: at least you didn't sell your college books for beer money after finals :-) |
| 23:30.14 | Sienna | I mocked up a 4DOF leg today, I am liking it alot! |
| 23:30.22 | RobotGuy | I'm trying to decide whether I want to learn how to write Linux device drivers to do what I want to do or go the userland route. |
| 23:30.30 | Sienna | back then i didn't drink adyer : |
| 23:30.31 | Sienna | :P |
| 23:30.58 | adyer | RobotGuy: you can always start in userland to get going and change to kernel later |
| 23:30.59 | Sienna | what is that RobotGuy? |
| 23:31.23 | RobotGuy | I;m not sure I want to get into the maintaining a patch role. |
| 23:31.31 | RobotGuy | adyer: True |
| 23:31.59 | RobotGuy | What is what? Ya lost me, Sienna. ;)\ |
| 23:32.24 | RobotGuy | I have so many ideas running around in my head right now. I don't want them to escape! |
| 23:32.42 | adyer | RobotGuy: quick - duct tape your mouth! |
| 23:32.42 | Sienna | what were you trying to do that is causing you to decide what kind of code to right |
| 23:33.23 | Sienna | shoves a sock in RobotGuy's mouth, and uses a ribbon to tie it in :D |
| 23:34.27 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Ah! If I go the device driver path, I might have to maintain the thing indefinitely (assuming for now it gets into the mainstream kernel). The device driver path might be the ultimate best path to help the robotics community though. |
| 23:34.46 | RobotGuy | Hey, was that sock CLEAN? |
| 23:34.58 | Sienna | yes! |
| 23:35.07 | Sienna | what do you think i am, a dirty savage!? |
| 23:35.45 | RobotGuy | Userland path would be more tinkering. I can see advantages to both paths. |
| 23:35.54 | RobotGuy | No, I definitely don't think that. |
| 23:36.44 | adyer | RobotGuy: you could release it as source for a module to be built outside of the kernel. |
| 23:37.00 | RobotGuy | I think I will connect my bluetooth module to /dev/ttySAC0 today. I'm tired of having to route and reroute my serial cable. |
| 23:37.16 | RobotGuy | adyer: True. Hmmmm. |
| 23:38.02 | adyer | adyer: and it's not like anyone can force you to maintain anything. granted things suffering bitrot aren't nice... |
| 23:38.10 | RobotGuy | I ordered some servos for W.A.L.T.E.R. |
| 23:38.23 | Sienna | goody! |
| 23:38.34 | RobotGuy | adyer: If I were to eventually get a patch into the kernel. I would want to maintain it properly. |
| 23:39.02 | RobotGuy | Sienna: 3 HS-645MG and 3 HS-475HB and a Little Grip without servos. :) |
| 23:39.16 | RobotGuy | Wait, that's 2 HS-475HB |
| 23:39.31 | Sienna | are you going to openservo one of them? |
| 23:39.33 | ali_as_ | No way! No fking way! The embeddedarm.com website selling ts-7800 boards is running on a ts-7800 how unbelievably cool is that. |
| 23:39.46 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Eventually, I want to Open Servo all of them. :) |
| 23:40.25 | RobotGuy | ali_as_: It could be real. |
| 23:40.35 | *** join/#edev cajaka (n=none@cpe-24-58-193-200.twcny.res.rr.com) |
| 23:40.36 | Sienna | that is cool! |
| 23:40.45 | RobotGuy | ali_as_: That is a very nice board, and one I would love to get at some point. |
| 23:41.17 | ali_as_ | It's not much more than what I paid for this arm7 board a year ago. |
| 23:41.19 | RobotGuy | connects W.A.L.T.E.R. up to JTAG. |
| 23:41.28 | Sienna | pays bills :( |
| 23:41.38 | RobotGuy | Sienna: Pay mine too please. ;) |
| 23:41.44 | adyer | lol, I was grepping the kernel tree and instead of grep -i foo I typed grep i foo :-) many hits for the letter i |
| 23:42.04 | ali_as_ | Need to check out lattice FPGAs, I've only programed Xilinx before. |
| 23:42.20 | RobotGuy | I will probably loose my internet around the middle of this month. :( |
| 23:42.38 | Sienna | if you get one ali_as_, make sure to program the FPGA to have SPI and I2C!! |
| 23:42.38 | RobotGuy | ali_as_: I have the software installed for Lattice, but no Linux tools. :( |
| 23:43.00 | RobotGuy | Sienna: More than one I2C and SPI bus. :) |
| 23:43.24 | Sienna | FPGAs are just way over my head |
| 23:43.43 | ali_as_ | I2C would certainly be in the picture, SPI never used. |
| 23:43.44 | Sienna | basic electronics is pushing it |
| 23:43.49 | RobotGuy | I so want to get an FPGA board, but I want the Xilinx Spartan 3E/Microblaze kit. |
| 23:44.04 | adyer | RobotGuy: I believe lattice has linux support now |
| 23:44.15 | ali_as_ | I don't trust soft CPUs. |
| 23:44.41 | RobotGuy | adyer: Really? I will have to go look. Altera has Linux tools also, but only if you BUY their package. |
| 23:45.00 | ali_as_ | One of the problems I had came from my PCs LPT port, which had glitches in it. |
| 23:45.30 | ali_as_ | The glitches fed back into the 4005 FPGA and actually reprogrammed it with garbage. |
| 23:45.48 | adyer | Sienna: FPGAs are a lot of fun. |
| 23:46.00 | Sienna | then you can do them for me :D |
| 23:46.00 | MonMotha | Xilinx is really fairly nice when it comes to dev software |
| 23:46.03 | ali_as_ | The design would die gradually as time went on. |
| 23:46.10 | MonMotha | the basic package is downright free for all but the largest of their devices |
| 23:46.29 | adyer | Sienna: OK, you want a fixed price contract or time & materials? :-) |
| 23:46.32 | Sienna | oh 37c stamps, what to do with you but double up postage |
| 23:46.36 | MonMotha | I also like their FPGAs better than Altera, though I think Altera's CPLDs may be better |
| 23:46.51 | Sienna | depends adyer, but I am open to things like that |
| 23:47.07 | ali_as_ | I do like xilinx, but I wouldn't trust a CPU on an fpga. |
| 23:47.14 | MonMotha | why not? |
| 23:47.24 | MonMotha | soft core CPUs are common and well proven in many cases |
| 23:47.33 | adyer | ali_as_: ditto what MonMotha said |
| 23:47.39 | MonMotha | Xilinx DOES offer FPGAs with hard cores, if you prefer |
| 23:47.47 | MonMotha | though that's mostly limited to their huge devics |
| 23:48.02 | MonMotha | also nice, if you find a bug in your soft core, you can fix it :) |
| 23:48.02 | SpeedEvil | What's wrong with CPU on FPGA? |
| 23:48.05 | ali_as_ | As above, gltiches can cause the design to unravel and you can spend weeks tracking down problems that have nothing to do with the design fault. |
| 23:48.11 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 23:48.16 | MonMotha | perhaps you should avoid crappy hardware :) |
| 23:48.22 | SpeedEvil | F00Fs ali_as_. |
| 23:48.29 | ali_as_ | :P |
| 23:48.37 | MonMotha | There's no reason to use cheap parallel port JTAG dongles these days |
| 23:48.49 | MonMotha | you can buy quality USB interfaced ones for like $60 |
| 23:48.56 | ali_as_ | Wasn't a JTAG dongle. |
| 23:49.20 | ali_as_ | The lpt port was carry data to and from the fpga. |
| 23:49.43 | MonMotha | and you managed to reprogram the FPGA with that? |
| 23:49.50 | ali_as_ | It was an OS Link interface, for anyone that remebers transputers or occam. |
| 23:49.50 | MonMotha | I've *never* heard of that happening |
| 23:50.21 | SpeedEvil | shaves often usinng Occam. |
| 23:50.24 | ali_as_ | Reprogram may be not quite the right word, the glitches were slowly scrambling the electronic design. |
| 23:50.35 | MonMotha | I've heard of people hitting latch-up conditions, clocking garbage data in due to clock issues (which may mess up the stuff on the FPGA, but should not cause it to lose programming) |
| 23:50.55 | MonMotha | but I've NEVER heard of anybody managing to actually change the connectivity of the FPGA by any means other than engaging a bitstream download |
| 23:51.05 | ali_as_ | After some time operating the FPGA would start doing things it hadn't been programmed to do, lighting up LEDs... |
| 23:51.14 | adyer | ali_as_: and you expect a normal CPU to perform with glitchy power? |
| 23:51.23 | ali_as_ | No glitchy power. |
| 23:51.24 | MonMotha | and I'm guessing that if that's what actually happened and you were respecting all other conditions, then the maker of the FPGA would consider that a serious problem |
| 23:51.33 | ali_as_ | Just glitches on the data lines. |
| 23:51.51 | adyer | ali_as_: under/overshoot? |
| 23:52.11 | MonMotha | without seeing your design, I couldn't tell you why that happened, but I'm guessing it has nothing to do with it being an FPGA and everything to do with your design, UNLESS you were not respecting other characteristics of the FPGA |
| 23:52.14 | ali_as_ | Unsure. The glitches were quite rare compaired to genunine data. |
| 23:52.26 | MonMotha | such as power, overshoot/undershoot, clocking speed requirements, etc. |
| 23:52.40 | MonMotha | FPGAs can be fairly picky about those, but then so can modern "hard core" CPUs |
| 23:52.45 | RobotGuy | does not see anywhere to download anything but Lattice updates for Linux |
| 23:52.46 | ali_as_ | It was connected directly to the motherboard lpt port. |
| 23:53.11 | MonMotha | RobotGuy: you looking for Xilinx's software? Look up "ISE WebPack" |
| 23:53.14 | MonMotha | there's a Linux version |
| 23:53.15 | adyer | RobotGuy: http://www.latticesemi.com/dynamic/view_document.cfm?document_id=27525 |
| 23:53.23 | RobotGuy | MonMotha: Lattice |
| 23:53.24 | ali_as_ | And I was doing data transfer only, it took me more than a month to figure out why my design was breaking. |
| 23:53.30 | MonMotha | oh |
| 23:53.42 | MonMotha | ali_as_: I'm guessing you had some bug in your design |
| 23:53.56 | ali_as_ | No, I had a bug in my motherboard. |
| 23:54.02 | RobotGuy | adyer: echo "This installation requires ispLEVER 7.0 to be installed FIRST." |
| 23:54.12 | ali_as_ | MSI-6167 early athlon motherboard. |
| 23:54.16 | MonMotha | I've never managed to scramble the internal connectivity of an FPGA by messing with IOs |
| 23:54.23 | MonMotha | and I've never heard of anybody else doing so, either |
| 23:54.34 | MonMotha | the only time I've heard of that happening is due to power supply issues |
| 23:54.39 | ali_as_ | When I moved to a PCI lpt port card the problems evaporated. |
| 23:54.49 | ali_as_ | Seperate power supply. |
| 23:55.11 | MonMotha | still, I highly doubt it was the FPGAs fault that weird things were happening in the face of bogus dat |
| 23:55.16 | MonMotha | that's very likely the fault of your design |
| 23:55.20 | ali_as_ | Digital oscilloscope found glitches on the motherboard lpt port in normal use. |
| 23:55.56 | MonMotha | I've never experienced an FPGA doing anything other than what it is told, even though that can very easily not be what you want |
| 23:56.33 | ali_as_ | I know of one other example of odd behaviour of fpga's but it isn't mine. |
| 23:56.48 | MonMotha | define "odd" |
| 23:57.08 | MonMotha | you have to realize that FPGAs end up in some seriously "mission critical" applications to the extent that rad-hard versions are sold |
| 23:57.30 | MonMotha | many "mission critical" telecom and military applications are low enough volume that an ASIC isn't economically feasible, so FPGAs are used |
| 23:57.43 | MonMotha | the FPGA makers take failure (when operated within specifications) VERY seriously |
| 23:57.46 | ali_as_ | I read a paper on genetic algorithms that used a design cycle method to make a frequency descriminator. |
| 23:57.59 | RobotGuy | Sienna: W.A.L.T.E.R. is a perfect example of why we don't want DB9 connector(s) on the Hammer-RDP. |
| 23:58.41 | ali_as_ | The design used the standard design software, but the algorithm made changes, recompiled using the makers tools and then measured performance. |
| 23:58.50 | Sienna | I wish HyrdaIRC highlighted my name when it was used.... |
| 23:59.00 | Sienna | get a picture RobotGuy, please? |
| 23:59.22 | ali_as_ | The reason it stuck in my head was that the final design included a bunch of gates that wern't connected to the main circuit. |
| 23:59.56 | ali_as_ | The author of the paper tried removing them, as logically they did nothing, but found the design nolonger worked! |