| 00:00.22 | Dr{Who} | anyone build any perl modules for arm? I was hoping i could just add this to buildroot so i dont have to "custom" build stuff but I dont think buildroot supports adding modules that are not part of the main perl5.8 package. |
| 00:02.30 | Dr{Who} | hmm Time::HiRes is in the base perl.. hmm maybe i am ok. |
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| 00:48.26 | Mirell | Hmm... |
| 00:48.42 | Mirell | Anyone know of a good RFID reader/writer that has decent support for Linux? |
| 00:48.54 | MonMotha | the "make your own" RFID reader/writer? |
| 01:15.50 | Dr{Who} | =arm |
| 01:15.53 | Dr{Who} | dho |
| 01:16.58 | Mirell | Heh. |
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| 01:30.24 | sjhill | who's got an up to date email for CosmicPenguin |
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| 03:06.20 | Dr{Who} | ouch.. looks like adding modules to perl is a lot of heavy lifting.. |
| 03:07.22 | Mirell | Indeed. |
| 03:07.35 | Mirell | I gave up Perl for any serious coding besides one-liners. |
| 03:08.35 | Dr{Who} | i did my prototype code in perl a language i prefer not to write in just because it would be something anyone could use later. |
| 03:08.50 | Mirell | stifles a giggle |
| 03:08.59 | Mirell | Perl? Maintainable? Hah. |
| 03:09.28 | Dr{Who} | well in the sense it does not need compiling.. |
| 03:09.35 | Mirell | True, true. |
| 03:09.40 | MonMotha | there exists a perl compiler |
| 03:09.54 | Dr{Who} | i much prefer C++ anyday but its not exactly easy to just change a line and go |
| 03:09.57 | Mirell | I mean, I love Perl. But I don't ever expect to be able to decipher something I wrote in it a week later. |
| 03:10.15 | Dr{Who} | heh. ya. i spent a lot of time makeing this code very readable.. |
| 03:10.26 | Dr{Who} | and ya its not easy to make perl readable. |
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| 03:12.51 | Dr{Who} | i wonder if any of the buildroot scripting languages are worth redoing this perl code in.. |
| 03:13.27 | MonMotha | perl: the only language that looks the same both before and after RSA encryption |
| 03:13.38 | MonMotha | I think even line noise is less random at times |
| 03:13.42 | Dr{Who} | hehe. |
| 03:14.08 | Mirell | Acme::Clean |
| 03:14.12 | Mirell | Makes it pretty. |
| 03:15.47 | Dr{Who} | looks like python has cursers module, i need that. now does it have serial and high res timer support... |
| 03:15.57 | Dr{Who} | oh well another day.. im out need zzz |
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| 05:14.18 | Redhatter | Anyone here experimented with FreeRTOS? Or know of a good RTOS kernel to use with the Atmel AT91SAM7S? |
| 05:46.32 | RobotGuy | I have done a very little with FreeRTOS, but it was for an NXP LPC2148. |
| 05:48.03 | RobotGuy | All I really accomplised was to get it to build (using Rowley Crossworks) and to load onto the board. |
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| 07:31.08 | [AD]Turbo | yo |
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| 13:04.16 | chouimat|work | morning |
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| 13:57.26 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 13:57.33 | prpplague | merry freakin friday |
| 13:57.41 | SpeedEvil | Welcome! |
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| 14:15.08 | prpplague | dijenerate: ping |
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| 15:47.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: greetings |
| 15:47.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: was your pink slip taped to your monitor this morning? |
| 15:48.00 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, I used it to clean up my spilled coffee |
| 15:48.15 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:48.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i heard thru the grapevine that the IBM offices there in longmont were going to layoff some people too |
| 15:49.14 | CosmicPenguin | There are more people at that one site then in all of AMD |
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| 16:22.09 | sjhill | CosmicPenguin: you around? |
| 16:22.38 | CosmicPenguin | yep |
| 16:24.00 | prpplague | sjhill: hey bud |
| 16:24.17 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 16:31.43 | sjhill | hey prpplague |
| 17:01.09 | Dr{Who} | prpplague.. if you know anyone with experience with the microperl in buildroot I need to make a final decision to even support perl on my code. So far best i can tell its next to impossible to build modules. I need just a few like Timer::HiRes but they require c extensions like many modules and best i can tell this is not supported but its a little confusing reading the docs |
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| 17:36.01 | landley | Morning. |
| 17:36.14 | landley | Number of recruiters to contact me so far this week: 5. |
| 17:36.29 | landley | Number of lines of code I've been tasked with writing or modifying since starting my new job: 0 |
| 17:36.42 | landley | Just sayin'. |
| 17:36.45 | CosmicPenguin | it sucks to be the man |
| 17:37.40 | chouimat|work | wanders in |
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| 17:40.17 | Dr{Who} | landley.. you know anything about the buildroot's microperl? im trying to find anyone who even uses it or has experience with cross compiling perl. specificly adding additional perl modules that have C extensions. |
| 17:40.39 | landley | I've played with microperl before. Not as part of buildroot. |
| 17:40.45 | landley | It's basically perl with no modules. |
| 17:41.19 | Dr{Who} | k. thats what i am getting as i read the docs. |
| 17:41.20 | landley | Although "perl" and "small" don't go together on a conceptual level, microperl is used by the perl build, thus it hasn't bit-rotted |
| 17:41.44 | landley | It's enough to build glibc. |
| 17:41.53 | landley | Why you'd want to build glibc is a question best left to others. |
| 17:43.11 | Dr{Who} | i have found a few embeded distro's that have perl and a few modules but they dont provide any good docs or processes.. just someone publishing the pre built stuff. |
| 17:43.14 | landley | Basically perl has to build under itself, and to build perl you need _this_ version of perl, so microperl started as a build hack (like "xgcc") and others found it useful. |
| 17:43.27 | landley | make microperl. |
| 17:43.45 | Dr{Who} | so its a bootstrap |
| 17:43.48 | landley | It's a make target in the perl build. |
| 17:43.49 | landley | Yup. |
| 17:43.55 | landley | But quite usable outside the perl build. |
| 17:44.36 | landley | lumps perl in with visual basic and cobol. |
| 17:44.43 | Dr{Who} | it seems to work ok on the hammer but i cant find any way to build a Makefile.PL for a module i would have to learn way more than i want to know about how perl builds itself.. |
| 17:44.50 | landley | Languages in which it's quite possible to make a good living, and turing complete enough to accomplish any task, but why? |
| 17:45.00 | landley | Not _fun_. |
| 17:45.20 | Dr{Who} | ya. looks like i am going to just rewrite my code in C |
| 17:45.21 | landley | DrWho: that was pretty much my reaction to it as well. |
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| 17:45.32 | landley | has pondered stripping down python for embedded use. |
| 17:45.36 | Dr{Who} | was hopping to keep it interpretide for easy of tweeking.. |
| 17:46.48 | landley | I'd have to call it "anthill python", probably. |
| 17:46.53 | Dr{Who} | i considered moving it to Python but if i am going to rewrite 2k lines of code i would rather just do it in C |
| 17:47.01 | landley | http://www.dreamsbeginhere.org/sandalwood/herpetology/classroomanimalsanthillpython.htm |
| 17:47.16 | landley | But /me has waaaaaay too many other todo items. |
| 17:47.16 | RobotGuy | Why do you have to strip down Python for embedded use? Python is already embeddable and is available in Buildroot as the entire package. |
| 17:47.29 | landley | This is somewhere in the mid double-digits on the todo list. |
| 17:47.55 | landley | The last time I looked at building python it came to around 3 megabytes. |
| 17:48.14 | RobotGuy | This is a problem why? |
| 17:48.34 | landley | Busybox maxed out at 1 (and most of that was the horrible e2fsprogs implementation and the like), and the smallest scripting language was lua. |
| 17:48.39 | landley | Which I still need to learn. |
| 17:48.57 | landley | RobotGuy: it's possible to boot and run a reasonable Linux system in 4 megs of ram. |
| 17:49.06 | landley | The uClinux guys do it all the time, even with the 2.6 kernel. |
| 17:49.26 | landley | Python wasn't really happy in less than about 16 megs, last I checked. |
| 17:49.31 | Dr{Who} | microperl built to 700k |
| 17:49.32 | landley | It's not _bad_, there's just room for improvement. |
| 17:49.35 | RobotGuy | landley: OK, so what is the problem with Python?? |
| 17:49.44 | landley | Heh, they've stripped about 200k off of it since last I checked. |
| 17:49.53 | RobotGuy | There is always room for improvement. |
| 17:49.59 | Dr{Who} | figure a few custom modules would keep it at around 1meg so not bad. my code written in C would probably be 20k |
| 17:50.11 | landley | I like python as a programming language. |
| 17:50.26 | landley | I do cgi scripts in python rather than C as my first choice. |
| 17:50.30 | RobotGuy | I have 24 MB RAM free on my Hammer, using JFFS2 Flash as root. |
| 17:50.42 | Dr{Who} | robot.. did you get a size of your python yet? |
| 17:50.59 | landley | RobotGuy: on hammer, python is a quite reasonable choice of language. |
| 17:51.08 | RobotGuy | I haven't bothered getting any size on Python. Why do I need that? |
| 17:51.46 | Dr{Who} | ya it seems to be the most supported.. and has the most hardware support built in. Perl has tuns but the microperl is too stripped and cant be added to "easily" |
| 17:51.50 | RobotGuy | I'm not sure what size you are asking about. |
| 17:51.59 | Dr{Who} | tcl i have no issues with but does it do serial? never tried that. |
| 17:52.18 | Dr{Who} | you may not but i do :P |
| 17:52.52 | RobotGuy | TCL is also heavily supported and I believe it does to serial. You need the pyserial module for Python to do serial, and it works great - I use it all the time. |
| 17:53.17 | Dr{Who} | does it come built in? or did you have to build it outside of buildroot? |
| 17:53.27 | RobotGuy | I still have 4.5 B of Flash left for other stuff. |
| 17:53.48 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: You have to add the pyserial module. |
| 17:54.09 | RobotGuy | PySerial is the first thing I add to Python. |
| 17:54.39 | Dr{Who} | and did you have to do this outside of buildroot? |
| 17:54.51 | Dr{Who} | i am trying to stay 100% inside of buildroot and not add custom processes |
| 17:55.09 | RobotGuy | LUA is available in the latest buildroot from svn. |
| 17:55.51 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I don't see how you can do that unless you add packages to buildroot, which I would like to do for PySerial and other add-ons for Python. |
| 17:57.18 | Dr{Who} | ok so you had to cross built it yourself.. ya i have a few modules i did myself so thats a posibility.. |
| 17:57.50 | RobotGuy | I need to figure out how to get PyRo onto Hammer, but so far it looks like the installation is tied to being on a PC and requiring all the fancy pants graphics stuff. |
| 17:59.04 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: You do not cross--build Python add-ons per-se. Most are already in Python and just need to be added to the site-packages directory. Others need to be compiled if they have C/C++ modules. Also, 'compiling' in Python means converting .py to .pyc formats. |
| 18:00.34 | Dr{Who} | sounds simmilar to microperl. so does the default Python tree include a built serial module and all you do is move the module object onto your system? |
| 18:00.56 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: No, you have to add PySerial. |
| 18:01.45 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: It depends on the add-on - if it is all Python code, it gets compiled to .pyc and everything added to site-packages. I am not sure if there is anything else that is done also. |
| 18:02.26 | RobotGuy | I have to add Phenny and DJango or Pylons to Python on Hammer. |
| 18:02.43 | RobotGuy | Also PyRo if I can get it figured out, or maybe Myro. |
| 18:04.15 | Dr{Who} | also robot. just so you know how it works. I have spent about a year inside of the python compiler itself rewriting it to be thread save back in the day. All a pyc ammounts to is object code or bytecodes simmilar to java compilers produce. |
| 18:05.07 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I figured that. I haven't gotten that deep into Python, but I do need to figure out if adding PyRo is reasonable. |
| 18:05.19 | Dr{Who} | i just fetched it to look. |
| 18:05.27 | RobotGuy | Cool. |
| 18:06.15 | RobotGuy | Naturally, I don't need all the fancy graphics and GUI stuff the installation at pyrorobotics.org shows (that installation stuff is horrible). |
| 18:06.31 | Dr{Who} | i presume that the python built with buildroot can build .pyc files and thats not stripped out? |
| 18:06.46 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: Yes, seems to do that fine. |
| 18:07.03 | RobotGuy | I have not had problems adding modules. |
| 18:07.07 | Dr{Who} | k good. the advantage of this is that you can build the modules on your host os and just put them on the hammer and it will run |
| 18:07.22 | Dr{Who} | as the bytecodes are not machine specific. |
| 18:07.24 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I want the source files also on the robot. |
| 18:09.10 | Dr{Who} | big package.. |
| 18:09.24 | RobotGuy | I also have a Thumb Drive if I run out of space. How much space does PyRo need? |
| 18:09.59 | RobotGuy | I think it would be very cool to have everything in Flash though. :) |
| 18:12.16 | RobotGuy | I have to go for a bit but should be back in within an hour. |
| 18:12.48 | Dr{Who} | its all native python code no c modules so if you just remove wxnsc and xnsc you wont have any dependancy on the gui libs. |
| 18:12.50 | Dr{Who} | dho.. |
| 18:12.58 | Dr{Who} | oh well i tell him when he gets back. |
| 18:14.19 | prpplague | trurns |
| 18:14.40 | prpplague | Dr{Who}: no i don't do much userland stuff these days |
| 18:14.54 | prpplague | Dr{Who}: so i have no clue about microperl |
| 18:15.31 | Dr{Who} | k. thanks i think its a dead end issue now. I have to rewrite my 2k lines of perl to python or just go C |
| 18:17.11 | Dr{Who} | does a very very small c compiler exist that would run on the hammer? |
| 18:17.27 | Dr{Who} | i just want to have the ability to recompile.. and not have to upload a new binary every time. |
| 18:22.29 | SpeedEvil | tinycc |
| 18:22.49 | SpeedEvil | or gcc on a flash usb thing |
| 18:23.17 | SpeedEvil | Or is that x86 only... |
| 18:25.40 | Dr{Who} | buildroot will make a gcc for the hammer.. but i presumed it would be way to big.. |
| 18:28.22 | Dr{Who} | WOW!!! its about time.. VIA announced it will be releaseing specs and code for its hardware.. |
| 18:28.59 | Dr{Who} | 3d support in via embeded systems sooooon. |
| 18:30.55 | landley | drwho http://landley.net/code/tinycc |
| 18:30.57 | Dr{Who} | landley.. seems you hare a hit on google for tinyc and uclibc .. so how big would a minimal compiler be? |
| 18:31.01 | Dr{Who} | ya : c ) |
| 18:31.10 | Dr{Who} | i found you again.. : c ) |
| 18:31.15 | landley | About 100k. The headers are the big expense. |
| 18:31.28 | landley | The headers run a few megabytes. But they compress well. |
| 18:31.38 | landley | (Just the standard uClibc headers.) |
| 18:31.51 | Dr{Who} | i love the scripting option.. |
| 18:31.55 | landley | Well, +kernel headers. |
| 18:32.14 | landley | The scripting currently works on x86 and I believe arm. |
| 18:32.25 | landley | (I need to test arm on actual hardware. It worked under qemu earlier this week.) |
| 18:32.30 | Dr{Who} | k sounds like a good option.. i get my cake and i can eat it too. |
| 18:32.40 | Dr{Who} | i get to use C i prefer that.. and i can build on the host. |
| 18:34.06 | landley | I did a blog entry about it: http://landley.net/notes.html#08-04-2008 (after a bit of chaff) |
| 18:34.12 | Dr{Who} | ok well i think i will give this a shot.. hope I dont drive you nutz with too many questions. I will do my best to answer my own q's but sometimes its hard to not ask when one gets stuck and frustrated.. |
| 18:34.24 | landley | Go for it, but I'm about to go to a meeting. Back on in an hour... |
| 18:34.34 | landley | (Taking my laptop with me, bye-bye net connection...) |
| 18:34.39 | landley | They have no wireless here. :( |
| 18:34.43 | Dr{Who} | yuck.. roach.. |
| 18:35.00 | landley | Back in a bit... |
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| 18:59.38 | RobotGuy | returns |
| 19:02.47 | Dr{Who} | robotguy: its all native python code no c modules so if you just remove wxnsc and xnsc you wont have any dependancy on the gui libs. |
| 19:03.13 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: Those are Python modules to be removed? |
| 19:03.26 | Dr{Who} | ya those are the GUI interfaces. |
| 19:03.33 | RobotGuy | Cool. Thanks! |
| 19:03.50 | Dr{Who} | i didnt see more but let me know i may have missed some |
| 19:04.35 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I will. :) Now I can proceed with actually learning PyRo. I didn't want to expend the effort to learn it if I couldn't put it on my robot. |
| 19:05.47 | Dr{Who} | ya as long as your python does not require .so modules or talk to uclibc in an incompatible way a py file should build fine. |
| 19:06.26 | Dr{Who} | i would say that for the best support for embeded python gets my vote so far. I would like to see java as another option.. |
| 19:06.50 | Dr{Who} | the idea being the same that it can be moved from any host and should run as byte code |
| 19:08.07 | Dr{Who} | as you are playing with Python. I am going to play with tinycc and see how that goes. |
| 19:08.57 | Dr{Who} | that way if you need something low level and fast we will have C and yet still buildable on the device itself. |
| 19:10.03 | Dr{Who} | if you get more into pyro i would be very interested in a brain dump some day maybe over a lunch.. |
| 19:10.12 | Dr{Who} | it looks very interesting.. |
| 19:10.22 | Dr{Who} | ill buy : c ) |
| 19:21.39 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I'll let you know once I get deeper into PyRo - you are not the only one interested in what I want to do with it. :) |
| 19:25.07 | Dr{Who} | ya well the idea of a remote command / object execution is a good idea for what you are doing and any type of remote control. |
| 19:25.36 | Dr{Who} | robot. you see any good docs on using buildroots cross compiler to build a make file outside of buildroot? |
| 19:26.00 | Dr{Who} | should just be a few path fars setup and some CC env options set then just a normal make. |
| 19:27.11 | Dr{Who} | this looks about right. |
| 19:27.12 | Dr{Who} | http://foobazco.org/~wesolows/mips-cross.html |
| 19:32.53 | Dr{Who} | this is a better howto.. think i will wiki this one.. http://www.trapexit.org/Cross_compiling |
| 19:41.00 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I haven't really looked. I am guessing it should not be any different that using any other cross-chain though. |
| 19:41.32 | RobotGuy | I always have to set ARCH, SUBARCH, and CROSS_COMPILE in Makefiles. |
| 19:42.38 | RobotGuy | You should see the arm I have on W.A.L.T.E.R. - like nothing you will see on any other robot. :) I have two sensors and a Little Grip gripper at the end of the arm. :D |
| 19:43.56 | Dr{Who} | very cool. i looked for the arm on your blog but didnt see it did you add it ? |
| 19:44.13 | ds2 | arm as in limb or are you bragging about some new embedded processor with a fast arm core? |
| 19:44.17 | ds2 | :) |
| 19:44.56 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: There are a couple pictures of it, but I completely redesigned it last night in an interactive redesign and development session. :) |
| 19:45.05 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: well it took a week but the backlight is working |
| 19:45.15 | RobotGuy | Well, I did not change the end effector/sensor head. |
| 19:45.21 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: \o/ |
| 19:46.51 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: I have to add libxml2 to my JFFS2 image. It looks like PyRo needs it. |
| 19:49.14 | Dr{Who} | sounds about right. it probably has some python module that will dynamicly load it |
| 19:49.22 | Dr{Who} | fortuanlty its part of buildroot : c ) |
| 19:51.06 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Did you ever figure out why my toolchain likes to rebuild itself? |
| 19:51.30 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: Yes, and libxml2 builds without problem. |
| 19:52.43 | *** join/#edev landley (n=landley@adsl-68-93-84-18.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 19:52.43 | *** mode/#edev [+o landley] by ChanServ |
| 19:53.30 | landley | drwho: any luck with tinycc? |
| 19:53.43 | landley | The result of the meeting was to confirm that the guy reviewing the information doesn't understand it either, so we're _both_ escalating. |
| 19:53.45 | landley | I want to go home. |
| 19:53.54 | Dr{Who} | i fetched it from your svn |
| 19:53.58 | Dr{Who} | but i have 1 quesiton. |
| 19:54.03 | landley | sure. |
| 19:54.16 | Dr{Who} | i have setup what i think is the correct build environment and run make but it still builds saying its 386 |
| 19:54.26 | landley | It hasn't got an x86-64 code generator yet. |
| 19:54.29 | Dr{Who} | can i pastbin my env setup and process to postbin. |
| 19:54.31 | landley | It has i386 and arm. |
| 19:54.33 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: Does 38MB for image size sound reasonable with a native C/C++ toolchain? |
| 19:54.42 | landley | drwho: what are you trying to get it to do? |
| 19:55.18 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: For kernel, buildroot, or both? |
| 19:55.19 | Dr{Who} | its not 100% but its part of my wiki i have so far. |
| 19:55.20 | Dr{Who} | http://pastebin.com/d297aa1f2 |
| 19:55.30 | Dr{Who} | just want to build it for the hammer. |
| 19:56.24 | RobotGuy | For buildroot, you need to make sure you have all the Samsung/Hammer stuff in buildroot/target/device |
| 19:56.28 | Dr{Who} | btw. love your blog.. |
| 19:56.36 | RobotGuy | Mine? |
| 19:56.43 | Dr{Who} | i wish i had been able to hang up on m$ |
| 19:56.54 | Dr{Who} | yours too robot : c ) |
| 19:57.30 | RobotGuy | :D I started a new Wiki, Blog, and Forums at www.thedynaplex.info, but the site is not exactly perfect quite yet. |
| 19:57.58 | RobotGuy | It uses SMF (forums), TikiWiki, and Serendipit (Blog) |
| 19:58.19 | RobotGuy | I just have to get the glue HTML working right. |
| 20:00.40 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Is the Hammer Wiki officially OK to write on now?? |
| 20:01.41 | Dr{Who} | interesting so it makes for both automaticly? |
| 20:02.13 | Dr{Who} | landley? did i even need to setup the environment i did |
| 20:03.30 | RobotGuy | I've been thinking about the whole RAM/Flash thing, plus looking at what else is available. It looks like 128 MB/RAM and 64 MB or more of Flash is the sweet spot. It looks like I could fit all the software I will ever need into 64 MB Flash. |
| 20:04.08 | RobotGuy | 64 MB RAM and 64 MB Flash may even be OK, but I'd really like a bit more headroom on the RAM side. |
| 20:06.11 | RobotGuy | is tweaking his JFFS2 image because libxml2 really expanded the size somewhat. |
| 20:06.37 | Dr{Who} | hmm |
| 20:07.02 | Dr{Who} | would not have expected it to be too big? what we talking here ? |
| 20:08.44 | RobotGuy | Dr{Who}: It increased my JFFS2 image size by 2.2 MB |
| 20:09.30 | Dr{Who} | wow.. |
| 20:09.33 | Dr{Who} | big lib. |
| 20:10.05 | CosmicPenguin | That a little too big - there must have been other dependencies that snuck in |
| 20:10.28 | RobotGuy | CosmicPenguin: That is possible. I'll have to look at the package. |
| 20:10.40 | CosmicPenguin | compression on JFFS2 is about 50% give or take |
| 20:10.46 | CosmicPenguin | so that would be about a 4MB library |
| 20:11.05 | CosmicPenguin | libxml2.so.2.6.30 on my 32 bit x86 box is 1166856 |
| 20:11.07 | RobotGuy | I just know my image size jumped from 11 MB to a bit over 13 MB |
| 20:11.35 | RobotGuy | The only thing I selected to add was libxml2. |
| 20:11.52 | RobotGuy | Which doesn't mean it didn't pull in other stuff too. |
| 20:12.28 | Dr{Who} | see if you can find the lib under /lib or /usr/lib and check its size. |
| 20:12.53 | RobotGuy | Hrrm, I only recovered 1 MB for an image size of 12 MB. Doesn't seem right. |
| 20:16.36 | RobotGuy | I just looked at the libxml2 package and it doesn't appear it pulled anything else in. |
| 20:19.27 | prpplague | RobotGuy: no, sorry, i must have forgotten about the issue with the toolchain rebuilds |
| 20:20.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm totally worn out, i think this has been the most frustrating week i've ever had doing embedded dev work |
| 20:20.42 | prpplague | landley: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/patches/viewpatch.php?id=4963/1 |
| 20:20.56 | prpplague | landley: where shall we send your nail boards and flyers to? |
| 20:21.24 | prpplague | landley: how many flyers do you think we need to send? |
| 20:22.14 | Dr{Who} | passes prpplague a Terminator a local beer. now you will forget everything... and its thick enough to be called lunch at the same time.. |
| 20:22.17 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I noticed the little TinCanTools add in Circuit Cellar.. It mentions robotics. :D:D |
| 20:22.46 | prpplague | indeed |
| 20:22.56 | prpplague | Dr{Who}: thanks, seems like i've tried that one |
| 20:23.03 | prpplague | checks his beer list |
| 20:23.22 | landley | Sorry, got dragged into another meeting. |
| 20:23.26 | landley | reads backscroll... |
| 20:23.54 | prpplague | Dr{Who}: which terminator is it? there are 5 listed? |
| 20:23.58 | RobotGuy | Dang, can't seem to get my JFFS2 image below 12 MB now. |
| 20:24.12 | landley | drwho: is your pastebin related to tinycc? |
| 20:24.15 | Dr{Who} | Terminator Stout by mcmenamins. |
| 20:24.47 | prpplague | http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/mcmenamins-terminator-stout/8374/ |
| 20:25.03 | prpplague | yea, i've had that one before back in 2002, but i never rated it |
| 20:25.23 | landley | prpplague: for CELF, email Tim Bird <tim.bird@am.sony.com> to get a C/O address. |
| 20:25.44 | prpplague | landley: have them arrive on wed? |
| 20:25.55 | landley | Any time before thursday morning. |
| 20:26.22 | landley | The earlier the better, that gives me time to prepare. I'll have a hotel room to keep 'em in and Tim lives locally I think. |
| 20:26.46 | landley | DrWho: read "./configure" in tinycc to see what environment variables you need. |
| 20:26.59 | landley | It's fairly simple and straightforward. (I think so, anyway. But then I wrote it, so am biased...) |
| 20:27.20 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Try for 128 MB RAM/64 MB Flash. :D |
| 20:28.49 | prpplague | landley: how many flyers you think? |
| 20:28.52 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ??? |
| 20:29.00 | landley | shrugs. |
| 20:29.01 | landley | A couple hundred should be plenty. |
| 20:29.10 | prpplague | landley: okie dokie, lets say 250 |
| 20:29.14 | prpplague | calls the boss |
| 20:29.23 | landley | Kinko's, the breakfast of champions! |
| 20:29.47 | RobotGuy | prpplague: For Sledge or whatever. :) |
| 20:30.23 | prpplague | landley: ok so make sure we add "this entitles you to receive $1USD from Rob Landley" in really small letters |
| 20:30.41 | landley | prpplague: unlikely. |
| 20:35.58 | Dr{Who} | tcc: file '/lib/libtinyccrt-arm.a' not found |
| 20:36.30 | landley | drwho: alas, it doesn't build that one itself yet. |
| 20:36.41 | landley | Copy libgcc.a and rename it. They export the same interface. |
| 20:36.48 | landley | That's on my todo list. |
| 20:36.50 | Dr{Who} | k |
| 20:37.03 | landley | It has source for that, but it's got platform specific #ifdefs that need hitting with a large rock. |
| 20:37.29 | landley | P.S. An arm version of libgcc.a, obviously. :) |
| 20:37.48 | Dr{Who} | yeppers.. finding it now and will try that. |
| 20:37.49 | prpplague | RobotGuy: sorry, are just suggesting that sledge hammer have 128 ram and 64 flash in future models? |
| 20:38.09 | landley | tinycc is basically doing armv4l-vfp. |
| 20:38.19 | landley | Armv4 little endian architecture with vector floating point. |
| 20:38.33 | landley | I need to add soft-float stuff, but that's still a todo item. |
| 20:38.39 | landley | For right now: don't use float if you can help it. :) |
| 20:39.20 | landley | (Or build a kernel that emulates float, which is slow but should work.) |
| 20:40.43 | Dr{Who} | ok now only 1 error |
| 20:40.54 | Dr{Who} | '/lib/crt1.o:1: could not read header |
| 20:41.02 | landley | file /lib/crt1.o |
| 20:41.05 | Dr{Who} | i presume i have to move some of the headers over.. |
| 20:41.18 | landley | Actually it's saying it couldn't read the elf header, I think. |
| 20:41.27 | Dr{Who} | ahh its a bad file i uploaded it but its 0 size.. |
| 20:41.28 | Dr{Who} | ill fix |
| 20:41.34 | landley | run tinycc with "-v -v" to see what files it tries to open. |
| 20:41.52 | landley | One -v is files it succeeds in opening, two includes unsuccessful attempts, so you can see the whole search path. |
| 20:41.58 | landley | Three includes gunk it gets out of 'em. :) |
| 20:42.21 | landley | That'd do it. :) |
| 20:42.40 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Yes |
| 20:42.48 | Dr{Who} | hmm |
| 20:43.00 | prpplague | RobotGuy: ahh ok, well sledge is low on the dev todolist |
| 20:43.03 | Dr{Who} | it build my hello world but it does nto run.. |
| 20:43.38 | prpplague | RobotGuy: actually T0mW has one of the prototype sledge hammers |
| 20:44.37 | landley | Hmmm, it ran here. |
| 20:44.51 | landley | So you build arm-tinycc? |
| 20:44.55 | Dr{Who} | i just did ./tinycc-arm -o out test.c |
| 20:45.05 | Dr{Who} | and then ran out. |
| 20:45.11 | landley | It's arm-tinycc, I think. |
| 20:45.25 | landley | Run ldd on out. |
| 20:45.32 | landley | See if the library linker path is what it expects. |
| 20:45.44 | Dr{Who} | no ldd on my hammer.. |
| 20:45.49 | landley | I think the default is wrong for arm and for uClibc. |
| 20:45.54 | landley | How about readelf? |
| 20:46.09 | Dr{Who} | noper.. i dont have file either : ( |
| 20:46.15 | Dr{Who} | ill have to add that.. its good to have. |
| 20:46.34 | Dr{Who} | ill add ldd and file that will be needed.. probably a missing lib or something. |
| 20:46.36 | landley | Most likely it's looking for a linker path of /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (the default), which is A) wrong for arm, B) wrong for uClibc. |
| 20:46.39 | Dr{Who} | strace too. |
| 20:46.48 | landley | You have to override that with an environment variable when you build. |
| 20:47.06 | landley | I have a todo item to let you override that from the command line, but that's in the "linker options" todo thing, which is a large lump I need about a week to do right. |
| 20:47.15 | landley | (I'm turning tinycc into a swiss army knife executable like busybox.) |
| 20:47.31 | landley | So you can symlink names to it ending in ld, as, cc, ar, strip, and so on... |
| 20:47.34 | Dr{Who} | neet. |
| 20:47.36 | landley | And it can act like that executable. |
| 20:47.51 | landley | But that requires essentially a complete rewrite of options.c, and some other stuff. |
| 20:48.15 | Dr{Who} | ya. a whole new main parsing commands etc |
| 20:48.57 | Dr{Who} | well i like the idea so far.. you have my support. |
| 20:49.18 | Dr{Who} | i have a snapshot from your mercurial server |
| 20:50.06 | landley | cool. |
| 20:50.11 | landley | I take patches. :) |
| 20:50.18 | Dr{Who} | sounds good. |
| 20:50.33 | landley | I've been reading and slowly untangling the tinycc code for a year, and I still only think I understand about half of it... |
| 20:53.23 | RobotGuy | This doesn't make any sense - I took a couple things out of my kernel and now I have a kernel panic - can[t open console. |
| 20:53.49 | Dr{Who} | hmm did /dev/console get nuked? |
| 20:53.56 | Dr{Who} | in the init? |
| 20:54.19 | Dr{Who} | robot.. do you know how to mount your init as a loop device? |
| 20:54.20 | landley | RobotGuy: you need a /dev/console in your initramfs. |
| 20:54.35 | landley | Even if you haven't _got_ an initramfs, you still need a /dev/console in it. :) |
| 20:54.43 | RobotGuy | landley: I'm not using initrd/initramfs |
| 20:54.50 | landley | Otherwise, PID1 has no stdin/stdout/stderr, and generally exits. |
| 20:55.02 | Dr{Who} | you have a jffs2 root fs dont you.. |
| 20:55.07 | landley | RobotGuy: then it's building one for you. |
| 20:56.41 | Dr{Who} | hmm i thought ldd was part of bb |
| 20:58.04 | RobotGuy | It still doesn't make sense I get this kernel panic though. |
| 20:58.30 | Dr{Who} | if the /dev/console goes or is damaged the kernel will panic |
| 20:59.37 | RobotGuy | How is /dev/console going to be damaged? |
| 20:59.55 | Dr{Who} | well its a file and during a write to the hammer? |
| 21:02.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you still know some folks over at bsquare? |
| 21:02.38 | CosmicPenguin | yep |
| 21:05.31 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: we are considering using them to do our wince dev |
| 21:05.44 | landley | ldd is part of uClibc. |
| 21:05.47 | landley | So is readelf. |
| 21:05.56 | Dr{Who} | k ya was just looking at that now. |
| 21:06.06 | Dr{Who} | cant find "file" |
| 21:06.20 | landley | RobotGuy: /dev/console could either not be there in initramfs, or it could point to a device that doesn't exist so attempts to open it fail. |
| 21:06.21 | landley | If your " |
| 21:06.37 | landley | if your "console=" argument on the command line points to a device you configured out, for example. |
| 21:07.31 | prpplague | RobotGuy: for example if you are using console=ttySAC0 and you have your kernel configured without the s3c24xx serial console support, you'll get that message |
| 21:10.08 | landley | prpplague: how? |
| 21:10.24 | landley | If you configure out s3c24xx, how does it manage to give you _any_ output? :) |
| 21:10.49 | prpplague | landley: s3c24xx serial console, since the ttySAC0 won;'t exist |
| 21:11.25 | prpplague | landley: if you can have the low level s3c24xx debug output turned on, but not the serial console |
| 21:11.31 | prpplague | landley: those are two different options |
| 21:12.59 | landley | ah. Ok, I can see that. :) |
| 21:13.00 | Dr{Who} | ya but would not a kernel panic printk() need at least that much to be seen on the serial console in the first place? that part confuses me. |
| 21:13.31 | Dr{Who} | the boot loader has its own driver for serial so it will show starting the kernel but once the kernel takes over .... |
| 21:13.32 | landley | If it's using debug_printk(), which is sort of a bit-bang driver for very simple serial devices. |
| 21:13.43 | landley | Not something you want ot use later in the boot, but it's something you can use before interrupt routing is up and such. |
| 21:14.06 | prpplague | Dr{Who}: the s3c24xx debug is hardcoded to produce output on the specific serial port |
| 21:14.06 | landley | You have to configure that in menuconfig, though. I think. |
| 21:14.37 | prpplague | landley: yea, alot of people aren't used to those options and often mistake the serial debug for serial console |
| 21:14.46 | Dr{Who} | k. that seems resonable so its hardcoded till the kernel is up enough and sets up its consol and can do normal printk() |
| 21:15.41 | Dr{Who} | so early kernel messages use debug_printk().. |
| 21:16.02 | landley | prpplague: did you ever resend the hammer patch, cc'ing me? |
| 21:16.58 | prpplague | landley: http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/patches/viewpatch.php?id=4963/1 |
| 21:17.15 | prpplague | landley: i got a little nasty with bjdooks yesterday and he signed off |
| 21:17.22 | prpplague | landley: now it awaits rmk |
| 21:17.27 | landley | Cool! |
| 21:17.38 | landley | A good candidate for the -rc1 merge window then. |
| 21:18.01 | prpplague | landley: yea, its my understanding there should be nothing that stops it from going into rc1 |
| 21:19.44 | Dr{Who} | does not look like ldd is built for arm not seeing an option for that. |
| 21:20.48 | landley | make utils |
| 21:20.51 | landley | In uClibc. |
| 21:21.00 | landley | Also, you can use your cross compiler's readelf. |
| 21:21.07 | landley | (Or you could download mine and use the one out of that. :) |
| 21:23.50 | landley | DrWho: run "strings" against the binary and grep for "/ld-" |
| 21:24.15 | landley | can usually come up with a disgusting solution to an unsolvable problem. |
| 21:26.22 | prpplague | fun fun, the s3c24xx frame buffer kconfig option will only present itself if for a s3c2440 if you also have s3c2410 enabled |
| 21:28.35 | landley | prpplague: sounds like a tweak needed to kconfig. :) |
| 21:28.44 | prpplague | indeed |
| 21:48.20 | prpplague | goes home |
| 22:22.20 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@163.181.251.103) |
| 22:22.20 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 22:59.37 | RobotGuy | I have the correct console command line |
| 23:16.30 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |