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| 13:07.14 | g1powermac__PB | hey RobotGuy |
| 13:08.11 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Hi there |
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| 13:35.45 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Do you know anything about Ada? |
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| 17:20.23 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB you alive? |
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| 17:23.30 | RobotGuy | sighs |
| 17:26.59 | prpplague | RobotGuy whats up crack daddy? |
| 17:27.04 | prpplague | RobotGuy gentoo issues? |
| 17:27.25 | RobotGuy | Naw, I'm doing fine with Gentoo now. |
| 17:28.18 | RobotGuy | I'm trying to figure out why cross compiling Ada (GCC supports Ada fully) seems to be so difficult. |
| 17:29.20 | RobotGuy | How are you doing today? |
| 17:29.59 | ohsix | because you need to bootstrap it with an existing ada compiler? :] |
| 17:30.13 | RobotGuy | I may end up having to have surgery on my right hip (replacement). :( |
| 17:31.05 | RobotGuy | ohsix: That should not be necessary. The option to support Ada is already in GCC and -should- just have to be enabled when the cross compiler is built. I could be way off in my thinking though. |
| 17:31.15 | ohsix | but its not |
| 17:31.24 | RobotGuy | Not what? |
| 17:31.40 | ohsix | and you have to have an existing C compiler to build gcc too |
| 17:32.00 | ohsix | it isn't part of gcc proper, its split off due to the bootstrapping problem |
| 17:32.01 | RobotGuy | ohsix: I know that, but I think you are not understanding. |
| 17:32.27 | RobotGuy | GCC already supports Ada fully. |
| 17:33.08 | RobotGuy | We already build cross compilers for C/C++. Why not for Ada also? |
| 17:33.33 | ohsix | because the bootstrap process needs a compiler that can already target the cross target? |
| 17:34.07 | ohsix | you can build a multitarget bootstrap and use it to bootstrap the other target, but the build process of fetching an existing toolchain only accounts for building on chost |
| 17:35.24 | RobotGuy | I seem to not be communicating again. :( |
| 17:36.06 | ohsix | nah, you just seem unfamiliar with how ada is "supported" with gcc |
| 17:36.41 | RobotGuy | ohsix: Everything I read indicates GCC supports full Ada 2005. |
| 17:37.04 | ohsix | gnat does |
| 17:37.43 | RobotGuy | GNAT does not cross compile. |
| 17:38.30 | ohsix | not in the sense that other things "cross compile", no |
| 17:38.40 | ohsix | it needs a bootstrapping ada compiler |
| 17:39.07 | RobotGuy | ohsix: Are you saying the host GCC has to support Ada? |
| 17:39.30 | ohsix | something does, just like you need a C compiler to build gcc |
| 17:40.06 | ohsix | look under "building the ada compiler" http://gcc.gnu.org/install/build.html |
| 17:40.09 | RobotGuy | I( don't think we know this to be true though. Does the host GCC really have to support Ada to create a cross compiler for Ada? |
| 17:40.30 | ohsix | YES. |
| 17:41.09 | ohsix | so you have an extra step that is not supported by the normal "cross" process, you need to build an ada compiler that is multitargeted, then use it to build the self hosted version for your target |
| 17:42.06 | ohsix | thats the problem with it being written in ada :] it's really no special distinction, people just take a C compiler for granted |
| 17:43.07 | RobotGuy | What is written in Ada? |
| 17:43.14 | ohsix | where gcj is written in C, but it uses gnu classpath which is java... it has its own bootstrap but you can build the compiler with a C compiler |
| 17:43.23 | ohsix | gcc-gnat, the gnu ada components |
| 17:43.55 | RobotGuy | OK, I see I just can't get where I want to go. |
| 17:44.12 | ohsix | you can, but it needs special attention |
| 17:44.41 | RobotGuy | I don't know what is required. I've never been able to build my own toolchains. |
| 17:45.51 | ohsix | gentoo can do it for you, and scratchbox, and a few other things i cant remember now, no need to do things the nigh impossible way before you're familiar with the process |
| 17:46.07 | ohsix | you need to bootstrap your brain with scripts and software other people have written for the task :] |
| 17:47.27 | RobotGuy | Yeah, I already built a uclibc toolchain with Gentoo. Just C (not sure about C++). |
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| 17:48.32 | ohsix | i'm hoping gnat will eventually get a simple ada compiler in C so it can bootstrap itself without having to use an existing set of binaries |
| 17:49.25 | RobotGuy | Apparently it is not currently possible to compile Ada for ARM using free tools. |
| 17:49.52 | RobotGuy | It's a shame too, because one of the design goals for Ada was for embedded systems. |
| 17:50.06 | RobotGuy | Embedded and real time systems. |
| 17:50.08 | ohsix | get the binary bootstrap, build gnat to target arm, use that to build native arm target arm |
| 17:50.42 | RobotGuy | I ddo not want a native Ada compiler for ARM. I want a cross compiler. |
| 17:51.00 | RobotGuy | That's what doesn't seem workable right now. |
| 17:51.04 | ohsix | that involves having the ada tools on an arm target |
| 17:51.21 | RobotGuy | What Ada tools? |
| 17:51.27 | ohsix | gnat |
| 17:51.35 | ohsix | gnatlink... the binder |
| 17:51.47 | RobotGuy | I already said I don't want a native Ada compiler on ARM. |
| 17:52.03 | ohsix | then you wont be using ada :] |
| 17:52.19 | RobotGuy | I 'spose not. :( |
| 17:54.09 | RobotGuy | I still don't get why it shouldn't be able to cross compile Ada from the host to the target. |
| 17:54.20 | RobotGuy | Oh well, just one more thing I don't understand. |
| 17:55.53 | ohsix | because it is in ada, and requires special tools also written in ada, gccs cross build process involves building the compiler 3 times (and thats just for C) |
| 17:57.38 | RobotGuy | The language the tools are written in need not be the same language as what is being compiled. |
| 17:58.03 | ohsix | yea, sure, if you're talking about something like ld, and using binutils |
| 17:58.22 | RobotGuy | I am talking about ANY tools. |
| 17:58.33 | ohsix | ada has that special sauce |
| 17:58.47 | RobotGuy | One could write a compiler for ANY languge completely in C/C++ |
| 17:59.09 | RobotGuy | I don't agree that that needs to be the case. |
| 17:59.12 | ohsix | http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.3.0/gnat_ugn_unw/The-GNAT-Compilation-Model.html#The-GNAT-Compilation-Model |
| 18:00.17 | RobotGuy | You are missing the whole point of my comment. |
| 18:00.38 | ohsix | the binder in particular is written in ada, and has to have intimate knowledge of the files it works with, its not just as simple as working with sections and elfs |
| 18:00.50 | ohsix | you dont seem to understand that its not a C compiler :] |
| 18:00.59 | RobotGuy | Take languge A and compiler B. The compiler for language A can be written in language B. |
| 18:01.13 | RobotGuy | I do understand it is not a C compiler. |
| 18:01.20 | ohsix | not if A isn't "compiled" |
| 18:01.41 | ohsix | you are implying things that are basically only true in simple cases by speaking in those terms |
| 18:01.41 | RobotGuy | I'm not going to debate it further. |
| 18:02.17 | ohsix | theres no debate, you may come to know how things work when you actually use it :] |
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| 18:03.25 | RobotGuy | When I use what? |
| 18:03.35 | ohsix | ada. |
| 18:04.06 | RobotGuy | I still maintain that an Ada compiler does not need to be written in Ada. |
| 18:04.46 | ohsix | you keep mentioning this compiler thing :] |
| 18:05.11 | ohsix | that implies a linear, pipeline of steps to produce an output that is distinct and self supporting |
| 18:05.33 | RobotGuy | You are maintaining that some tools for Ada needs to be written in Ada. |
| 18:05.43 | ohsix | like if you could compile java, but didn't understand java bytecodes, you couldn't support the classloader or basically half of java, you still need it in there |
| 18:06.00 | RobotGuy | We aren't discussing JAVA. |
| 18:06.02 | ohsix | some can, but that would only be for bootstrapping it so you wouldn't need a native toolchain |
| 18:06.29 | ohsix | but factors of the language necessitate them being in ada |
| 18:06.35 | RobotGuy | Are you saying that an Ada compiler can not be completely written in C/C++? |
| 18:06.46 | ali_as | If you are writing a compiler and plan to make a half assed job of it, it makes sense to compile with something reliable. |
| 18:06.58 | ohsix | there is no "Ada compiler" as you are implying, in the C sense |
| 18:07.18 | RobotGuy | Fine, whatever, I surrender. |
| 18:08.25 | ohsix | i still recommend looking at ada and trying your hand at it |
| 18:09.02 | RobotGuy | I already am looking at Ada, but that doesn't change my position any. I have GNAT built for my PC. |
| 18:09.27 | RobotGuy | In any case I am tired of discussing this. |
| 18:09.33 | ohsix | do something with it now :] |
| 18:10.19 | RobotGuy | It's not worth my time to even learn Ada if I can't do with it what I want. |
| 18:10.28 | ohsix | ada being in the formula for bootstrapping and runtime stuff has the same sort of considerations that need to be made for java, and the bytecode interpetation and adapters thereof |
| 18:10.41 | ohsix | you can do what you want, you just dont know anything about it heh |
| 18:10.47 | ohsix | and its not a C compiler |
| 18:11.27 | ohsix | that chap is a little thick |
| 18:12.24 | ali_as | If someone suggested to me that I should try prolog, I'd behave in exactly the same way. |
| 18:13.20 | ohsix | he's applying a thought process that doesn't really fit to something he's not familiar with |
| 18:13.48 | ohsix | and in this case he's not really familiar with the whole process in the first place :] |
| 18:14.42 | ali_as | You've just summed up everything that's wrong with linux for me. |
| 18:16.26 | ohsix | and rightly so, but you shouldn't fight everything you actually learn during the learning process |
| 18:16.56 | ohsix | or simply proclaiming that it doesn't work like you want in your ignorant opinion and washing your hands of it :] |
| 18:17.56 | ali_as | On the other hand people used to a system are often blind to faults obvious to outsiders. |
| 18:18.15 | ohsix | one thing i really have come to like about linux and the software you can run on it, is there is no overriding need to make things simple in domain specific tools, and the software ends up being highly specific, but it also fits the subject _extremely well_, often ending up having no parallel in a given class |
| 18:18.59 | ohsix | thats a valid argument, but this isn't the case, he fought with me for like 20 minutes after i told him he needed to bootstrap with an ada compiler :] and how to do what he wants |
| 18:37.42 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: not really, doing moving stuff |
| 18:43.57 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB ok i'll give you a shout later |
| 18:49.04 | markus | Does anybody know if openembedded uses ccache as default for crosscompilation? |
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| 18:54.17 | SpeedEvil | I can only say that the implementation of Openembedded by OpenMoko uses .ccache |
| 18:59.22 | markus | SpeedEvil: where is that .ccahe located? |
| 18:59.33 | markus | *.ccache |
| 18:59.33 | SpeedEvil | ~.ccache |
| 19:00.15 | markus | so the cross compiled caches will be saved even if openmoko/embedded is deleted? |
| 19:00.56 | SpeedEvil | Don't know |
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| 22:11.09 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: I'm back for a bit |
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