| 00:07.44 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: that would be good |
| 00:07.58 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I would tie it in with our already existing award winning libpayload library |
| 00:12.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin you'll have to point me to the source for that |
| 00:14.15 | CosmicPenguin | http://coreboot.org/viewvc/trunk/payloads/libpayload/ |
| 01:08.20 | kergoth | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_License is awesome |
| 01:20.50 | prpplague | throws kergoth a beer |
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| 01:59.07 | *** topic/#edev is a channel for the discussion of hacking small consumer electronic devices, mostly ARM based; Hammer Development boards as well as Nail Boards are now available at http://www.tincantools.com/ |
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| 02:40.06 | prpplague^2 | pea greetings |
| 02:40.23 | pea | howdy's all |
| 02:40.50 | prpplague^2 | pea #edev is frequented by alot of professional devrs in the US, so most active times are between 7am and 7pm CST |
| 02:42.18 | pea | grr... the hours GE owns me fingers :/ i'll adjust :) |
| 02:56.44 | pea | looks that the Kit is the best route for me to start peeling the repurposed (headless) lapper out |
| 02:57.15 | pea | question tho, Commercial or Automotive temp range? |
| 03:06.30 | prpplague^2 | its commercial |
| 03:06.36 | prpplague^2 | pretty heavy duty |
| 03:11.48 | pea | 'k -- that should work fine uner seat or trunk mount |
| 03:17.15 | solar | prpplague^2: yeah I tend to have lots of compilers handy |
| 03:21.42 | prpplague^2 | solar looks pretty good so far |
| 03:21.51 | prpplague^2 | solar i've done a couple of tests |
| 03:22.14 | prpplague^2 | solar not sure how much i should remove the main build from the arduino stuff, its a total mess |
| 03:23.02 | prpplague | solar based on what i read and looking at the source, these guys had a good idea with the wiring/process language, but had no idea about build systems |
| 03:23.47 | solar | it's a bit messy and I had a few problems trying to figure out how to make use of it without the ide. |
| 03:25.27 | solar | java is just a big no way in my book. I refuse to install such things that require JIT on linux. The general Makefile is handy. So my pov it's just 'make clean all upload' |
| 03:25.56 | solar | which is about what I hacked up for the Nail. |
| 03:29.44 | pea | still neeeds to banish the IDE :/ |
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| 03:32.58 | prpplague | pea yea that is the first to go |
| 03:33.20 | prpplague | pea remove the idea and create a proper build system that is system agnostic |
| 03:36.02 | pea | IDE-dump is task #2... cut-n-pasted my first runs. IIRC, your removal recipe was basiclly carve the meat out of one of the orginal makefiles. |
| 03:36.12 | solar | prpplague: but as far as IDE's go. There is gnome-avrdude which should dupe some of the basic features ppl were talking about liking as part of it's IDE.. Probably a few UI tweaks to make a gnome-openocd out of it. |
| 03:36.50 | solar | sorry kde ppl. don't know if anything exists for you |
| 03:38.56 | pea | for kde, kate works great. you can add plugins, but "fire a script" feature covers my needs |
| 03:39.51 | prpplague | pea yea, the java stuff is completely useless |
| 03:40.21 | prpplague | pea i'm planning to grabe the core hardware support as is from the arduino repo |
| 03:40.51 | pea | jave belongs in a cup, steaming hot. |
| 03:41.23 | prpplague | pea build something around it, so we can continue using the core libraries as the arduino folks contribute to it |
| 03:42.00 | pea | java, even. --- ah, xlnt. |
| 03:42.02 | solar | so really whats at it's core some extra cpp macros? |
| 03:42.54 | pea | haven't done a deep dive, but that appears to be the extent. |
| 03:44.09 | prpplague | solar lots of defines, lots of core functions |
| 03:44.41 | prpplague | solar they have a bunch of features like soft rs-232 , character lcd functions, servo operations |
| 03:45.26 | prpplague | solar but what is neat is they are all written beatifully |
| 03:45.34 | prpplague | solar they all depend on about 10 core functions |
| 03:45.46 | solar | I've actually not been able actually make use of Wire or the Servo libs. |
| 03:45.51 | prpplague | replace those and the it is completely independent of platform |
| 03:45.59 | prpplague | solar yea? |
| 03:46.17 | solar | can't even #include "Servo.h" |
| 03:46.28 | prpplague | solar i'm gonna have to flash a few of the atmels at the office with arduino stuff for testing |
| 03:46.38 | solar | think thas why you might of seen a direct -I statement in that Makefile |
| 03:46.42 | prpplague | solar yea the build system is very brittle |
| 03:46.58 | prpplague | pokes kergoth |
| 03:47.09 | prpplague | i'm hope'n i can get kergoth in on this |
| 03:47.29 | solar | fix up the Makefiles or subject ppl to use oe? :) |
| 03:47.49 | kergoth | chuckles |
| 03:47.53 | prpplague | solar hehe |
| 03:47.56 | kergoth | just use makefiles |
| 03:48.16 | solar | give a buildroot kinda feel perhaps |
| 03:48.25 | prpplague | kergoth ever read any isaac asimov books? |
| 03:49.13 | kergoth | i used to read them quite a bit when i was younger |
| 03:49.19 | kergoth | don't do much scifi nowadays, usually fantasy |
| 03:49.21 | prpplague | solar i think makefiles are probably the best for short term |
| 03:50.08 | prpplague | kergoth asimov was a great believer in micro-universe studies, many of his books were based on the idea you could use small "worlds" to study larger ones |
| 03:51.00 | prpplague | asimov is the only person in history to write a book in every section of the dewy decimal system |
| 03:52.36 | prpplague | solar landley is a firm believer in shell scripts, andersee was always about makefiles, and kergoth in the past has believe in more robust structures |
| 03:53.51 | kergoth | depends on the task at hand |
| 03:54.32 | prpplague | indeed, as scotty always said "right tool for the right job" hehe |
| 03:55.14 | prpplague | i think the wiring/process language is a great start for doing some great embedded work, just that the build system needs alot of work |
| 03:56.14 | solar | prpplague: The idea is to glue 1 linux kernel with one single init=/static-arm.elf how you are doing it? |
| 03:57.02 | prpplague | solar sorry didn't follow you statement, can you explain |
| 03:57.59 | solar | prpplague: ppl that run the platform don't usually compile a bunch of other programs. They just code the one. It gets processed and uploaded. The device starts running the code right away more or less OSless. |
| 03:59.46 | prpplague | indeed, the arduino has a bootloader that handles much of the initialization as well as the easy upload process |
| 04:00.03 | solar | so. If you are trying to dupe basic functionality. Are you thinking to pair an already built kernel,apex and have processing put the userland glue there that the end user is looking for. |
| 04:00.04 | prpplague | for all basic purposes, the linux OS will be the bootloader |
| 04:00.54 | prpplague | solar yea, with the way this is building, it basically runs just like a standard linux app |
| 04:01.18 | solar | any smaller micro kernels that could provide the basic functionality for the arm? It's mostly just basic pin i/o operations that ppl are using them for. |
| 04:01.34 | prpplague | we'd create an arduino/hammer kernel and rootfs that is optimized for those operations |
| 04:02.00 | prpplague | solar well, techincally if you wanted to, we could actually build the arduino code to boot and run from apex |
| 04:02.19 | prpplague | solar no reason we can't add that as an option |
| 04:02.23 | solar | did you just recently inherit a magic bunch of spare time? It seemed you were overwhelmed a last week |
| 04:03.09 | prpplague | hehe |
| 04:03.10 | solar | prpplague: bypass linux and go the apex route and I think you found the magic combo of KISS |
| 04:03.48 | prpplague | solar but see by passing linux you loose a whole host of features that you can take advantage of such tcp/ip stack |
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| 04:15.48 | prpplague | solar the wiring/process language is an item that fits in with one of my long term projects |
| 04:17.11 | prpplague | solar i have this idea of a generic computing brick, for use with manned space missions |
| 04:17.34 | solar | ok? |
| 04:17.47 | prpplague | solar only one brick used in every thing, enviroment, power, navigation |
| 04:18.00 | prpplague | solar which means only one type of spare part to carry |
| 04:18.25 | prpplague | solar also means that if there is some kind of accident, a brick can be repurposed on short notice |
| 04:19.22 | prpplague | solar i.e. a massive accident that destroys navigation, you can grab a brick from the solar array or communications and repurpose it in short order to perform the navigation duties |
| 04:20.34 | solar | and wiring/process fits into this for it's??? |
| 04:21.29 | prpplague | solar wiring/process language is geared towards generic operations without knowledge of the underlining hardware, for instance, the serial.print command |
| 04:21.47 | prpplague | solar as well as commands like pinMode() |
| 04:21.52 | ds2 | take it one step further.... Solar/water activate FPGA bricks that can be configured for anything |
| 04:22.54 | prpplague | ds2 indeed |
| 04:23.37 | prpplague | solar lets take a hypothetical situations |
| 04:23.50 | solar | sure |
| 04:24.00 | prpplague | solar lets say you get hit with a solar flare (no pun intended) on the way to mars |
| 04:24.38 | prpplague | solar most of the equipment is fried, and you need to rotate the solar panels to get some power quickly |
| 04:25.11 | prpplague | solar the only brick that is available was used for communications, which means it needs to be repurposed |
| 04:25.36 | prpplague | solar you grab the brick, you need to be able to reprogram it to pwm the servos for the solar array quickly |
| 04:26.04 | prpplague | solar the wiring/process language makes that work a ton simpler by adding wrappers around the details |
| 04:26.26 | solar | fair enough |
| 04:26.57 | prpplague | "i want pin 2 to be a pwm, i want it to work with a servo, and i want it at a relative 45 degress" |
| 04:27.36 | prpplague | solar not saying everything is there now, but thats my long long long term idea that i'm working towards |
| 04:28.22 | solar | yeah. Not many ppl get to design parts for trips to mars |
| 04:29.18 | prpplague | indeed, AML and TCT do lots of designs and products, but i add something i want to test to each design |
| 04:29.51 | prpplague | hence the nail |
| 04:31.02 | prpplague | solar but if you notice alot of the tech that goes for space missions ends up in the hands of consumers |
| 04:32.42 | ds2 | it goes both ways, the a lot of the space technology is becoming accessible by consumers...i.e. amateur radio satellites |
| 04:33.09 | ds2 | or that civilian space plane company |
| 04:33.10 | prpplague | ds2 indeed |
| 04:44.15 | ds2 | prpplague: has anyone tried g_serial on the hammer? |
| 04:51.13 | prpplague | ds2 yep works nicely |
| 04:51.37 | ds2 | prpplague: So 1 port as host and 1 port as gadget is fine? |
| 04:52.33 | prpplague | yea |
| 04:52.51 | prpplague | ds2 that's exactly how the nail board is configured |
| 04:52.59 | prpplague | i gotta head to bed, sigwife |
| 04:53.03 | prpplague | night folks |
| 04:53.11 | solar | sleep well |
| 04:53.19 | prpplague | will do |
| 04:53.48 | ds2 | night |
| 05:07.07 | RobotGuy | Durn, I missed a good discussion. |
| 05:07.45 | RobotGuy | I have the Processing environment running on this PC now. |
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| 07:14.18 | [AD]Turbo | hola |
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| 08:06.47 | methril | hola |
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| 13:46.52 | g1powermac | well, that was absolutely fun |
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| 13:47.08 | g1powermac | finally broke down and separated the giant ball of wires |
| 13:47.49 | dbtid | howdy; when i plug a USB serial port into my USB connector, why isn't /sbin/hotplug being invoked like it is when I plug in a USB flash device? |
| 13:51.55 | prpplague | dbtid: there could be several reasons, but you need to start by asking "what should it do when i plug it in?" |
| 13:52.03 | prpplague | dbtid: what are you expecting to happen? |
| 13:53.51 | dbtid | i expect /sbin/hotplug to be invoked, since kernel.hotplug = /sbin/hotplug |
| 13:54.09 | dbtid | then i'm going to look at all the flood of information thrown at hotplug via the environment and the command line |
| 13:54.27 | dbtid | and then i'm going to pick an appropriate point to run /sbin/getty -L ttyUSB0 115200 vt100 |
| 13:54.34 | dbtid | and that will provide a login to a shell. |
| 13:54.42 | dbtid | this is for an avionics box |
| 13:55.01 | dbtid | because of a poor design, there's no console port brought out of a connection |
| 13:55.04 | dbtid | *connector |
| 13:55.27 | dbtid | if i can make the USB connector a login port |
| 13:55.37 | dbtid | that will increase reliability for field updates |
| 13:55.51 | *** join/#edev chouimat|work (n=dieu@209.217.106.98) |
| 13:56.08 | prpplague | dbtid: ok, so you aren't manually loading the driver, so hotplug needs to know which driver to use, most likely the usb->rs-232 adapter you are using has a vendor/product id that currently not in either the drivers list or in hotplugs list |
| 13:56.44 | prpplague | dbtid: the first thing would to get the driver working manually, by doing a modprobe on the correct driver |
| 13:56.49 | prpplague | dbtid: check the functionality |
| 13:57.14 | prpplague | dbtid: then check to make sure that hotplug knows that the vendor/product of your adapter is matched with the correct driver |
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| 14:09.24 | dbtid | oh, it already is being loaded. |
| 14:09.46 | dbtid | i can manually do /sbin/getty -L 115200 ttyUSB0 vt100 |
| 14:09.48 | dbtid | and it works fine |
| 14:09.58 | dbtid | the problem is: hotplug isn't being invoked |
| 14:10.12 | dbtid | first off, it's my own hotplug |
| 14:10.20 | dbtid | i didn't grab that huge hotplug repository |
| 14:10.30 | dbtid | it's too much for this project |
| 14:10.37 | prpplague | dbtid: rmmod the driver and see if hotplug works when its plugged in |
| 14:10.43 | chouimat|work | morning |
| 14:10.48 | dbtid | prpplague: you lost me |
| 14:11.00 | dbtid | odd; lsmod doesn't show me ANYTHING |
| 14:11.06 | prpplague | dbtid: let's back up |
| 14:11.09 | dbtid | ok |
| 14:11.17 | prpplague | dbtid: is the driver compiled into the kernel or is it a module? |
| 14:11.24 | dbtid | compiled |
| 14:11.30 | dbtid | hence lsmod shows nothing |
| 14:11.32 | dbtid | right. |
| 14:11.47 | dbtid | i forgot that part. |
| 14:12.14 | prpplague | dbtid: ok, then hotplug has nothing to do for loading the driver, you simply want to start the getty when the insertion happens? |
| 14:13.08 | dbtid | exactly |
| 14:13.12 | dbtid | same as for a usb flash key |
| 14:14.18 | dbtid | oy vey |
| 14:14.18 | prpplague | dbtid: are the drivers for your usb flash device compiled into the kernel as well? or are they being loaded by the hotplug app? |
| 14:14.22 | dbtid | i know what the problem is |
| 14:14.23 | dbtid | sigh |
| 14:14.24 | dbtid | i'm sorry |
| 14:14.30 | g1powermac | http://changelog.complete.org/posts/741-From-Dell,-a-Uniquely-Terrible-Experience.html |
| 14:14.34 | dbtid | in /sbin/hotplug i did an echo, but not echo > /dev/console |
| 14:14.35 | dbtid | sigh |
| 14:14.36 | g1powermac | thats great |
| 14:15.07 | prpplague | dbtid: hehe, now that is a first, i've never heard anyone use "oy vey" in real life before, only on tv, hehe |
| 14:15.14 | dbtid | heh |
| 14:15.17 | dbtid | jewish relatives |
| 14:15.27 | dbtid | there we go! |
| 14:15.41 | dbtid | $1 == usb-serial and then laster tty |
| 14:15.48 | dbtid | that's cool |
| 14:16.24 | g1powermac | dbtid, heh, I use that in real life as well ;-) |
| 14:16.42 | g1powermac | my father's family is jewish |
| 14:16.44 | dbtid | ah |
| 14:16.52 | dbtid | my sister-in-law's husband is jewish |
| 14:16.57 | g1powermac | mom is german ;-) |
| 14:17.03 | g1powermac | its a great mix ;-) |
| 14:17.08 | dbtid | i can't spell it, but i can say "l'chaim" like a real jew :) |
| 14:17.26 | g1powermac | heck yea |
| 14:17.36 | g1powermac | fiddler on the roof FTW! ;-) |
| 14:18.37 | prpplague | we have a pretty large jewish community in texas, but for some reason they just don't have as high a profile as i expect you would in places like north-east areas |
| 14:20.21 | g1powermac | prpplague, heh, amazingly there's two synagogues in the local city here |
| 14:20.45 | g1powermac | but thats it |
| 14:21.28 | prpplague | g1powermac: yea, funny thing, barbados has one of the very first synagogues outside of europe |
| 14:21.44 | prpplague | g1powermac: my wife also had no experience with jewish community |
| 14:22.01 | g1powermac | we never really got into the religion, by the time my father was born, his parents kinda gave up the judaism |
| 14:22.47 | g1powermac | though he does know enough yiddish that you can spot him from a mile awhile when you hear him talk |
| 14:23.01 | solar | maybe of some interest to ppl here 'price' . http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/20/msi-wind-barebones-desktop-now-available-to-order/ |
| 14:23.03 | prpplague | g1powermac: we were watching an episode of house where they had a hasidic wedding |
| 14:23.10 | prpplague | g1powermac: she had no clue what it was |
| 14:23.14 | g1powermac | ahh, yea, thats a good one |
| 14:23.23 | prpplague | looks |
| 14:23.26 | prpplague | solar: morning |
| 14:23.37 | solar | morn. |
| 14:23.45 | solar | wish coffee brewed itself |
| 14:23.51 | g1powermac | prpplague, my father used to work at a store in a town that had a large hasidic community |
| 14:24.19 | g1powermac | prpplague, they really are quite extreme |
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| 14:25.45 | prpplague | solar: nice looking box |
| 14:26.05 | prpplague | solar: you could put a nice hammer server in there |
| 14:26.46 | g1powermac | thats nice |
| 14:27.53 | prpplague | solar: spent some time this morning working on the WP api for arm |
| 14:28.04 | prpplague | solar: stripped most of the stuff out of the arduino build |
| 14:28.39 | solar | getting it down the to the basics so W/P is more generic? |
| 14:28.42 | prpplague | solar: first rev will just to build for hammer, but i think it might be better to gear it so it can generically compiled |
| 14:28.49 | prpplague | solar: yea |
| 14:28.59 | prpplague | solar: that build system is horrific |
| 14:29.14 | solar | well yeah. It's Makefile based and not very mature |
| 14:29.57 | solar | this chip cought my interest last night http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=4324 |
| 14:31.07 | prpplague | looks |
| 14:32.05 | dbtid | prpplague: it's working well enough now |
| 14:32.10 | solar | did the clocks/time just change? |
| 14:32.48 | prpplague | solar: uh not that i am aware of |
| 14:32.53 | prpplague | solar: why? |
| 14:33.35 | solar | I thought it was ~8:15am or so when I woke up. Looking at the clock now says it's only 7:30 |
| 14:34.08 | prpplague | hehe |
| 14:34.30 | prpplague | solar: maybe your bedside clock got changed by accident |
| 14:34.39 | prpplague | solar: i've done that before changing the alarm time |
| 14:34.51 | solar | power went out a few days ago. I must of set it back wrong |
| 14:35.53 | prpplague | solar: does that explain why your parol officer was mad at you for being late to your weekly checkin? hehehe |
| 14:36.06 | solar | heh |
| 14:36.07 | prpplague | jokes with solar |
| 14:36.34 | solar | it's ok. Reminded me of LWE. When I was about to ride the bull. |
| 14:36.49 | solar | guy on the mic said I looked like the guy who took his lunch money when he was a kid |
| 14:37.20 | solar | ruined my chances of druming any crowd support for who the winner of the bull riding contest was |
| 14:37.30 | prpplague | hehe |
| 14:38.06 | prpplague | man i have a ton of work to do today |
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| 15:11.31 | kergoth`work | morning |
| 15:14.38 | prpplague | kergoth`work: greetings |
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| 15:17.39 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: remember my old boss, Greg at Century? |
| 15:18.53 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I read the back scroll when I got back home last night, and I like your idea about using Processing/Wiring. |
| 15:19.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed |
| 15:19.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thanks |
| 15:19.54 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: I got hooked up with him on LinkedIn and looked at his connections list - Ransom Love is on there |
| 15:19.57 | CosmicPenguin | I had to laugh |
| 15:19.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: At least some of what you want to do could be applied to robotic systems also. |
| 15:20.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: HA |
| 15:20.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: that is funny |
| 15:20.48 | RobotGuy | prpplague: If there is something I can do to help you, let me know. :) |
| 15:20.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: did you see that message the other i sent you with one of the lines on a job listing? |
| 15:21.11 | CosmicPenguin | no, I must have missed it |
| 15:21.16 | prpplague | RobotGuy: when i have something presentable i'll post it |
| 15:21.25 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Cool. :) |
| 15:23.12 | prpplague | 02:47.38prpplagueCosmicPenguin: i have a great one for you!!!! |
| 15:23.12 | prpplague | 02:47.42prpplagueCosmicPenguin job listing |
| 15:23.12 | prpplague | 02:48.07prpplagueCosmicPenguin "Knowledge of state-of-the-art UI toolkits that are publicly available. Notably, Qt, FLTK, SDL, nano-X, Microwindows, etc." |
| 15:23.12 | prpplague | 02:48.31prpplaguewtf? state of the art + nano-x? |
| 15:23.33 | CosmicPenguin | holy crap - where did you see that? |
| 15:23.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: a STB group over in richardson,texas |
| 15:24.25 | CosmicPenguin | There is probably a connection somewhere in there |
| 15:24.57 | CosmicPenguin | Either a friend of Greg's or somebody who did previous work |
| 15:25.26 | CosmicPenguin | To pull out FLTK and Nano-X - those are not two popular google terms |
| 15:26.04 | chouimat|work | SDL a UI toolkit??? |
| 15:31.10 | prpplague | chouimat|work: yea based on the things they were asking for, i suspect they wanted to do some interactive STB menus and such |
| 15:31.25 | chouimat|work | ok make sense now :) |
| 15:34.48 | prpplague | fltk is still pretty popular for the STB market for some reason |
| 15:35.55 | chouimat|work | it's light and simple I guess :) |
| 15:37.57 | MothaWork | SDL isn't a UI toolkit, but it's amazingly useful for other things you might see on a STB |
| 15:38.09 | MothaWork | especially with SDL_Image, SDL_ttf, etc. |
| 15:40.53 | chouimat|work | anyone here has experience with usb2vga thingy? |
| 15:41.42 | prpplague | chouimat|work: have to have a very reliable USB2 host that does high-speed(480) with no issues |
| 15:41.54 | chouimat|work | k |
| 15:41.55 | prpplague | chouimat|work: it won;t even enumerate for a usb1.1 |
| 15:42.29 | chouimat|work | good this device has an ehci |
| 15:45.19 | prpplague | chouimat|work: and if it is usb2 and low speed or full speed, the device it will enumerate, but not function |
| 15:45.50 | chouimat|work | prpplague: how do I know if it's high-speed or not? |
| 15:46.25 | prpplague | chouimat|work: should be able to check the hardware specs for the ehci |
| 15:52.02 | chouimat|work | seems to support LS,FSandHS |
| 15:55.45 | prpplague | should be good then |
| 15:56.10 | prpplague | chouimat|work: might want to check and make sure that the HS doesn't require a specific clock PLL |
| 15:56.41 | chouimat|work | prpplague: I downloaded the Orion 88F5182 user manual so I will check later |
| 16:08.20 | CosmicPenguin | RobotGuy: make your robot do this |
| 16:08.22 | CosmicPenguin | http://gizmodo.com/5039928/cardboard-twitter-robot-will-read-out-loud-how-big-your-poop-is-and-be-sad-about-it |
| 16:16.52 | *** join/#edev Ei5GTB_ (n=Paul@78.16.206.223) |
| 16:20.36 | prpplague | hmm, that page seems to have killed my firefox |
| 16:28.50 | CosmicPenguin | probably because of the flash player |
| 16:28.50 | CosmicPenguin | sorry |
| 16:29.04 | CosmicPenguin | its an ardrino based robot that has different emotions based on a twitter stream |
| 16:31.01 | prpplague | ahh |
| 16:31.33 | CosmicPenguin | hopefully the rest of my halloween stuff shows up here soon |
| 16:31.47 | CosmicPenguin | I figured I could buy the tubing and connectors and stuff locally - I was wrong |
| 16:31.53 | CosmicPenguin | thank goodness for the web |
| 16:32.01 | prpplague | what kind of tubing? |
| 16:32.14 | CosmicPenguin | polyurethene |
| 16:32.29 | CosmicPenguin | I could find that - but the push to connect connectors and speed control mufflers not so much |
| 16:32.49 | prpplague | interesting |
| 16:43.38 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@78-105-167-16.zone3.bethere.co.uk) |
| 16:58.41 | CosmicPenguin | hmmmm - |
| 16:58.43 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKAD7&Click=19209 |
| 16:59.53 | solar | been thinking about ordering one myself |
| 17:00.42 | CosmicPenguin | If I had known about that, I probably would have gotten that |
| 17:00.45 | CosmicPenguin | instead of the parallax |
| 17:00.52 | CosmicPenguin | of course, you know me and soldering |
| 17:01.13 | solar | I don't |
| 17:01.23 | CosmicPenguin | there is nothing to say |
| 17:01.25 | CosmicPenguin | I can't solder |
| 17:01.42 | solar | but after a good 15 years of not soldering.. I picked up the protoshield and managed to not short anything out |
| 17:02.19 | kergoth`work | prpplague: http://www.agilejournal.com/content/view/757/192/ check out that article on build & release management. lists of a lot of the useful features in any such system.. wonder if i should try for that degree of flexibility and scale, or stay focused on linux distributions |
| 17:02.28 | RobotGuy | I'd get one of those but the motors I want to use (Banebots FF-050) stall at 1.9A. |
| 17:02.39 | prpplague | strange how you grow up doing something, like soldering, and then realize that not ever kid spends his weekends soldering up stuff, hehe |
| 17:02.52 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth`work: flexibilty is what will kill you |
| 17:02.57 | CosmicPenguin | do one thing uncommonly good |
| 17:03.04 | prpplague | kergoth`work: thanks , i'll have a read |
| 17:03.34 | kergoth`work | well, if it consists of multiple components that can be used independently, each doing one thing uncommonly good.. |
| 17:04.01 | kergoth`work | OE is too flexible in its metadata, and too monolithic otherwise |
| 17:06.03 | *** part/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-070.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 17:08.38 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-070.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 17:08.47 | *** join/#edev VK4FSJL (n=vk4fsjl@203.94.56.252) |
| 17:09.50 | kergoth`work | course, i don't know how likely it is to actually succeed at designing it in such a way |
| 17:12.55 | RobotGuy | I think what I want to do with robotics is way beyond what I will be able to accomplish on my own. |
| 17:13.31 | prpplague | RobotGuy: thats why you have to start small |
| 17:14.27 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I have been trying to do that, but I have to work on what I can actually do when I can't work on other stuff. |
| 17:15.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy: you could do alot more if you'd settle on one item and complete it |
| 17:16.58 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I can't do anything with Hammer right now, if that's what you are referring to, so I have to work on something else. I have to have SOMETHING I can work on. |
| 17:17.36 | prpplague | RobotGuy: seems like you'd want to get your PC fixed |
| 17:18.15 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't even know where the problem is in that PC. It could be the hard drives, the hard drive controller, or elsewhere. |
| 17:19.12 | RobotGuy | I have a couple other Athlon motherboards here but don't know if swapping motherboards would fix the problem. |
| 17:19.23 | g1powermac | when in doubt, use Occam's Razor |
| 17:19.31 | prpplague | RobotGuy: can't develop with the proper tools |
| 17:19.38 | g1powermac | most likely its a hdd problem |
| 17:19.56 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't undertand your statement. |
| 17:20.32 | prpplague | sorry typo s/with/without |
| 17:21.03 | RobotGuy | prpplague: What proper tools do I not have? |
| 17:21.13 | RobotGuy | Besides a good dev PC. |
| 17:21.48 | prpplague | RobotGuy: a working pc |
| 17:21.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: True. |
| 17:23.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: The best I could do right now would be to swap motherboards and hope that fixes the problem. If not, then I am out of luck for now. |
| 17:24.38 | g1powermac | sends RobotGuy an old junker PC ;-) |
| 17:25.00 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I already have two old PCs. :p |
| 17:25.24 | g1powermac | one can always use more junker PCs, always! |
| 17:25.30 | g1powermac | --Geek Proverb |
| 17:25.31 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: They are too old to even let me do one project I want to do for TCT. |
| 17:25.32 | g1powermac | :-) |
| 17:27.00 | *** part/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 17:27.08 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 17:30.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy: one should be more than enough |
| 17:30.53 | prpplague | RobotGuy: if i can work on a p3 500, with just 128m ram, you should be able to work on the stuff you have |
| 17:31.11 | g1powermac | bah! |
| 17:31.29 | g1powermac | started off on a p1 compiling 2.4 linux kernels only a few years ago ;-) |
| 17:31.43 | g1powermac | so it took me almost a day to compile it ;-) |
| 17:32.23 | chouimat|work | installed gentoo on a p200mmx with 64MB ram a few weeks ago ... from stage1 ... you just need to be patient |
| 17:32.40 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, what kin of p200mmx? |
| 17:32.42 | g1powermac | *kind |
| 17:32.52 | chouimat|work | ? |
| 17:32.57 | g1powermac | err, *brand |
| 17:33.18 | chouimat|work | ? |
| 17:33.51 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, what brand was your p200mmx? |
| 17:34.02 | chouimat|work | it's a no name clone |
| 17:34.06 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 17:34.23 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Technically I can, IF that is ALL I do on this PC, but that is not the case. |
| 17:34.42 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: and I have 2 of them ... they had a vtech sticker on them if it's help :) |
| 17:34.47 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, you know, after collecting so many junkers, I only have three no name clones |
| 17:34.59 | g1powermac | its kinda weird |
| 17:35.20 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That means shutting down all my servers, KDE, etc. |
| 17:36.39 | prpplague | RobotGuy: priorities |
| 17:38.11 | g1powermac | obviously has loads of macs, but out of the PCs I have, i got three compaqs, a dell, a 486 HP, a 486 dec, ancient ibm thinkpad, a machine I built myself using two via mini-itx boards, and three clones |
| 17:38.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Shutting down all those things pretty much means disconnecting from everything on the net, including IRC and E-Mail. |
| 17:39.08 | g1powermac | oh, and those are the ones not in use |
| 17:39.50 | ds2 | ewww compaq's and dells yuck |
| 17:39.57 | prpplague | RobotGuy: why is that? |
| 17:40.03 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: I have a r10k O2, a few arm, a ibookg4, a ps3, a psp, a dreamcast and a few PCs ... won't mind getting a sparc :) |
| 17:40.14 | g1powermac | ds2, yea, the dell is bad, half the parts have been replaced on it |
| 17:40.36 | g1powermac | ds2, however, the two compaq deskpros which are the p1's, are actually quite nice |
| 17:40.44 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Because this PC is not fast enough and doesn't have enough memory to support running KDE and such all at the same time. |
| 17:40.46 | ds2 | g1powermac: all of them are bad... nonstandard formfactors on too many parts |
| 17:40.51 | g1powermac | the other compaq has some major issues with the case design |
| 17:40.53 | ds2 | no names are much better |
| 17:41.13 | ds2 | g1powermac: sounds like x86 stuff is of interest to you? |
| 17:41.24 | chouimat|work | ds2: explain that to CFO and theirs drones ;) |
| 17:41.24 | prpplague | RobotGuy: what's the speed? |
| 17:41.25 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, heh, I didn't mention the arm things I got ;-) |
| 17:41.48 | g1powermac | ds2, not really, most were just give aways to me |
| 17:41.50 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Pentium 3, 733 MHz, 192 MB RAM. |
| 17:41.56 | g1powermac | ds2, I can't pass up free or uber cheap stuff |
| 17:42.10 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: I'm looking at the entry level sparc t1 box ... |
| 17:42.16 | ds2 | g1powermac: so when get around to packing the mac, you want any x86 stuff I can toss in? |
| 17:42.18 | prpplague | RobotGuy: oh come on, i run fedora with a full desktop and do builds |
| 17:42.28 | g1powermac | ds2, depends on what you got :-) |
| 17:42.28 | prpplague | all on 500mhz and just 128 of ram |
| 17:42.52 | g1powermac | ds2, anything interesting besides just another beige box would be cool |
| 17:42.54 | ds2 | chouimat: I don't listen to ballast |
| 17:42.57 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Do you have to wait 10 seconds or more just to switch workspaces? |
| 17:43.10 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, ahh, cool |
| 17:43.18 | prpplague | nope |
| 17:43.22 | ds2 | g1powermac: I got a bunch of SMP slot 1's with PII-300's |
| 17:43.31 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: but still too expensive for me |
| 17:43.50 | ds2 | g1powermac: sending over a minipallet and a roll of wrapping tape is really the best way to go on all this ;) |
| 17:43.58 | g1powermac | ds2, hehehe |
| 17:43.59 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Do you have Apache, MySQL, Bind, etc. also running at the same time? |
| 17:44.13 | g1powermac | ds2, hmm, if you don't mind me asking, but what state do you live in? |
| 17:44.14 | prpplague | why would you need those? |
| 17:44.23 | ds2 | g1powermac: CA |
| 17:44.30 | g1powermac | dang, thats a far ride |
| 17:44.35 | RobotGuy | prpplague: This is my server. |
| 17:44.47 | ds2 | heh... if you were thinking of showing up with a empty pickup truck... :) |
| 17:44.52 | prpplague | RobotGuy: like i said, priorities |
| 17:44.57 | prpplague | RobotGuy: turn that stuff off |
| 17:45.01 | g1powermac | ds2, more like a box truck ;-) |
| 17:45.10 | RobotGuy | prpplague: It handles the domains thedynaplex.mobi and hybotics.net |
| 17:45.29 | prpplague | RobotGuy: gonna loose money if those are down? |
| 17:45.32 | RobotGuy | prpplague: You do not understand. |
| 17:45.47 | prpplague | sure don't |
| 17:46.00 | g1powermac | ds2, of course the parents of mine would throw me out of the house if I did that ;-) |
| 17:46.44 | g1powermac | which wouldn't be good as I don't have a car and you really can't live out here without one |
| 17:47.32 | g1powermac | curses the railroad that goes right through this town but doesn't off passenger service |
| 17:47.40 | chouimat|work | :( |
| 17:47.43 | g1powermac | s/off/offer |
| 17:48.27 | g1powermac | you could literally go anywhere in this state if the railroads had passenger service |
| 17:48.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: My servers have to do with other parts of what I want to do with my robot. |
| 17:48.44 | g1powermac | each town has major railroads going through them |
| 17:49.05 | Crofton | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:49.18 | wmat | like Woody Guthrie ;) |
| 17:49.22 | g1powermac | heh |
| 17:49.26 | CosmicPenguin | Have you seen what they are transporting these days? |
| 17:49.33 | CosmicPenguin | nothing I would want to get near |
| 17:49.38 | g1powermac | yea |
| 17:49.52 | g1powermac | I seen some nasty stuff go buy in the tanker cars |
| 17:49.56 | g1powermac | *by |
| 17:49.57 | Crofton | g1powermac, http://www.wind-drifter.com/railride/railride.htm |
| 17:49.57 | CosmicPenguin | the box car full of pillows doesn't come by that often |
| 17:51.13 | wmat | wasn't that in a simpson's episode, or maybe that was a truck full of pillows |
| 17:51.31 | CosmicPenguin | points to wmat for getting the reference |
| 17:51.42 | chouimat|work | :) |
| 17:52.32 | prpplague | RobotGuy: well my guess is the server portion doesn't come into play until AFTER you get the robot working |
| 17:52.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: And I can't get the robot working right now. |
| 17:53.14 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Unless I use Arduino for the controller. |
| 17:53.24 | prpplague | okie, i have work to do |
| 17:53.36 | g1powermac | Crofton, heh |
| 17:54.24 | g1powermac | ds2, though really, if you got anything interesting that you want to get rid that doesn't weigh a ton, lemme know |
| 17:55.08 | ds2 | g1powermac: I won't know til I dig through the piles |
| 17:55.23 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 17:55.56 | ds2 | or mounds depending on your choice of terminology |
| 17:56.37 | ds2 | prpplague: is there a hammer logo or icon floating around with a license/copyright that allows me to use it to referred to the hammer board ? |
| 17:56.56 | Crofton | g1powermac, He has a lot of "amusing" stories |
| 17:57.18 | prpplague | ds2: i don't believe there is one, i can ask mr.herod about it |
| 17:57.30 | prpplague | ds2: he's traveling on business and won't be back until monday |
| 17:58.04 | ds2 | prpplague: no biggie... just thought I would check to see if there is anything better then my crude 'sledge' |
| 17:58.07 | g1powermac | ds2, or tangled ball of wires. . . |
| 17:58.29 | wmat | ds2: google image search for hammer icon |
| 17:58.31 | ds2 | g1powermac: cables are not that much of a mess |
| 17:58.38 | ds2 | wmat: copyright/license issues |
| 17:58.59 | g1powermac | had major cable mess. . .though i now cleaned up a part of it this morning |
| 17:59.01 | ds2 | nothing suitable on wikipedia with a CC license |
| 17:59.21 | g1powermac | had a large draw of cables that could be removed by picking it up by just one cable |
| 17:59.31 | g1powermac | they were that tangled together |
| 17:59.56 | g1powermac | and it was full of power bricks, including the old 2 pounder kind |
| 18:00.05 | ds2 | IME, cables have their own special value |
| 18:00.20 | ds2 | and that value seems to go up each time I price out a connector :( |
| 18:00.29 | g1powermac | yea |
| 18:01.04 | CosmicPenguin | ds2: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hammer_icons |
| 18:01.41 | g1powermac | ds2, its amazing how many cables you accumulate over time |
| 18:01.50 | g1powermac | its worse than the old computers really |
| 18:02.05 | ds2 | CosmicPenguin: how did you find that? it didn't turn up when I did a wikipedia search for hammer |
| 18:02.24 | CosmicPenguin | ds2: yeah, commons is a seperate project |
| 18:02.54 | CosmicPenguin | wikipedia searches don't reach up that far (there might be a checkbox to turn it on) |
| 18:03.02 | ds2 | Oh |
| 18:03.41 | CosmicPenguin | there is a wierd relationship between wikipedia and commons - wikipedia can use commons images directly, but they are technically seperate |
| 18:03.58 | ds2 | Hmmm an LGPL image, so does that mean any photoshop work I do on it must be made available to anyone to has a copy of it and asks? |
| 18:03.59 | CosmicPenguin | thats why wikipedia is making a solid effort to move all open content to commons to reduce the confusion |
| 18:04.24 | ds2 | I'll remember to look at commons directly for media nexttime |
| 18:04.42 | CosmicPenguin | commons usually has better quality stuff |
| 18:06.38 | ds2 | hmmmI don't like the explanation of an LGPL icon |
| 18:08.13 | prpplague | need a tux with a hammer |
| 18:08.33 | wmat | should replace some of the lame elinux.org icons |
| 18:09.00 | ds2 | i just want something to graphically identify the hammer board in a slide |
| 18:09.37 | RobotGuy | ds2: Why not the graphic of the Hammer Board from the TCT site? |
| 18:10.04 | ds2 | RobotGuy: cuz that means the cartoonish icons for things connected to it would look out of place |
| 18:10.29 | ds2 | something simple that can be reduced to a bw line art is preferred |
| 18:10.57 | RobotGuy | ds2: Make it. :) |
| 18:11.39 | ds2 | RobotGuy: I have a crude one made up already |
| 18:11.48 | prpplague | ds2: you could use the tincan logo off the web site |
| 18:12.16 | prpplague | ds2: just have to crop it a little |
| 18:12.27 | ds2 | I could but that would just introduce confusion |
| 18:12.38 | ds2 | unless I refer to it as the tin can board ;) |
| 18:12.57 | prpplague | indeed |
| 18:13.17 | RobotGuy | ds2: A graphic of a Hammer poised to hit a board. |
| 18:13.47 | RobotGuy | s/poised/posed/ |
| 18:15.01 | prpplague | http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/mugenB16/the-attic/Hammer-2-128x128.png |
| 18:15.07 | prpplague | i kind of like that one |
| 18:16.06 | RobotGuy | I'm going to go work on my websites. I can do that without dealing with hardware. |
| 18:17.09 | prpplague | jeeze he has so much potential, but he can't stay focused for more than a couple hours |
| 18:17.50 | CosmicPenguin | one project at a time is good |
| 18:18.14 | g1powermac | needs to complete some projects as well. . . |
| 18:18.48 | wmat | likes the sledge: http://www.iconarchive.com/icons/mattahan/buuf/U-B-K-Eternal-Sledge-Hammer-128x128.png |
| 18:18.52 | ds2 | I wonder if the beagle is a elinux orphan by design |
| 18:19.06 | wmat | how so? |
| 18:19.34 | ds2 | it seems there are no pages that link to it |
| 18:20.00 | ds2 | so I have to search to find it....I would expect to find it referred to in places similar to the hammer board |
| 18:20.25 | wmat | the series of beagle board pages should start somewhere though |
| 18:20.27 | wmat | looks |
| 18:20.49 | ds2 | i.e. I would expect to see it in Hardware Hacking under ARM Dev boards |
| 18:22.20 | wmat | ds2: perhaps Dirk forgot, feel free to add it |
| 18:22.36 | prpplague | wmat: yea that one is a good icon |
| 18:22.40 | prpplague | wmat: i like that one |
| 18:23.21 | ds2 | wmat: Is it setup so anyone can get an account? |
| 18:23.37 | wmat | ds2: yep |
| 18:23.46 | ds2 | 'k I'll do that after lunch |
| 18:24.44 | wmat | no MIPS stuff on elinux.org yet :( |
| 18:32.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: half the he seems more interested in doing battle with every rather than moving forward |
| 18:41.15 | CosmicPenguin | some people thrive on that |
| 18:44.38 | ds2 | isn't the walnut MIPS? |
| 18:45.01 | solar | suggested hetry to focus on one project at a time but he got a bit defensive |
| 18:50.46 | prpplague | ds2: ppc |
| 19:03.23 | kergoth`work | CosmicPenguin: what's your opinion on the use of dependency as the mechanism for package selection for build and deployment? I'm thinking it's awfully limited, and confusing to the user (do they need to rebuild the task? the image?), and that a tool to pick & choose packages and/or individual files would be a better mechanism |
| 19:16.38 | CosmicPenguin | yes, at a high level |
| 19:17.19 | CosmicPenguin | The problem is that its hard to find the right balance |
| 19:17.41 | CosmicPenguin | certainly without mixing metaphors |
| 19:18.11 | kergoth`work | yeah.. and you'd basically have to turn off dependency checking entirely if you allow the file based stuff, just better hope they know what they're doing |
| 19:18.16 | CosmicPenguin | on one hand, you write a BOM with a list of packages you want, and on the other hand, some internal mechanism goes off and picks the dependant packages you need to build those packages |
| 19:19.05 | CosmicPenguin | I think the .deb mechanism is a good analogy |
| 19:19.18 | kergoth`work | nods |
| 19:19.25 | kergoth`work | and of course you need a sane mechanism to control optional dependency in order to scale low enough for folks like prpplague. oe's options are a bit of a mess at the moment |
| 19:21.45 | CosmicPenguin | the hard part is how low you need to go |
| 19:22.11 | CosmicPenguin | Maybe you don't have to choose |
| 19:22.48 | CosmicPenguin | You can make like debian/Ubuntu and say "okay, you newbies want our latest and greatest? apt-get install ubuntu-desktop" |
| 19:23.02 | CosmicPenguin | The rest of you want to drink from the water fountain - here's aptitude - go nuts |
| 19:23.26 | kergoth`work | http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dzb388z_55f3nhzwgc |
| 19:24.03 | CosmicPenguin | I think the parts of debian that OE pulls in is sane - meta packags are good |
| 19:24.23 | CosmicPenguin | meta dependencies that mirror package depencencies are good |
| 19:24.30 | CosmicPenguin | (or vice versa) |
| 19:24.55 | CosmicPenguin | ++ |
| 19:25.03 | kergoth`work | i'm wondering how much integration there should be between the app developer case, in source development and rebuild and quick deployment, vs the rest. they're quite different, the first might prefer scratchboxish environment with quick deployment tools to the build tool's crosscompilation/etc |
| 19:25.08 | CosmicPenguin | configuration manager: - reproducable and tracable |
| 19:25.19 | CosmicPenguin | That is everything we have ever wanted, right there |
| 19:25.39 | kergoth`work | its a huge issue. every time i've trie dto use OE in a company, i've had to battle the CM guy |
| 19:25.44 | kergoth`work | serious barrier |
| 19:25.50 | *** join/#edev frikker_ (n=blaine@107.135.68.216.DED-DSL.fuse.net) |
| 19:26.01 | CosmicPenguin | We had a BOM interface that we glued on top of OE |
| 19:26.08 | CosmicPenguin | it worked, but it could have been better |
| 19:26.18 | kergoth`work | i want to track the input and output of -every- step in the process |
| 19:26.25 | kergoth`work | task level to package level to image level |
| 19:26.36 | ds2 | the WRT54 is MIPS, prehaps a link to the appropriate folks? |
| 19:26.37 | kergoth`work | and optionally store either or both |
| 19:26.55 | CosmicPenguin | absolutely - thats the key part |
| 19:27.04 | CosmicPenguin | because the developer will trial and error his way to an image |
| 19:27.27 | CosmicPenguin | but when he is done, he needs to hand the CM guy something tangiable |
| 19:27.57 | CosmicPenguin | tangible |
| 19:28.01 | CosmicPenguin | nice spelling on my part |
| 19:29.01 | kergoth`work | what i'm wondering is mostly questions of scale. should it scale down to the app developer, or up to the level of multiple regular builds, possible continuous integration, test execution, distributed builds in a build farm, multiple build farms at multiple offices.. |
| 19:29.12 | kergoth`work | or somewhere in between |
| 19:31.59 | g1powermac | hmmm, there's a mac quadra 950 on ebay for $30. . . .that would complete the collection of different mac variants as it has a full 68040 proc in it. . . |
| 19:32.21 | g1powermac | well, still technically can run linux on a mac II if it came with a mmu chip |
| 19:32.33 | g1powermac | sadly the two mac II's I have here are beyond dead |
| 19:37.23 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth`work: well, most of the OE crowd is interested in the package / image generation |
| 19:37.49 | CosmicPenguin | I use it to repeatedly build indvidual applications, but thats because I haven't had the motivation to install a SDK or a chroot yet |
| 19:38.32 | g1powermac | GPSFan, you around? |
| 19:38.39 | CosmicPenguin | But yes, I think it needs to scale upwards - its not outside of the realm of possiblity that you would want to at least build new packages in a continuious integration fashion |
| 19:39.47 | kergoth`work | i'm thinking such a thing would be pretty nice, catch package conflicts, dependency issues, etc automatically |
| 19:39.55 | kergoth`work | spot an image thats too large |
| 19:39.56 | kergoth`work | whatever |
| 19:40.12 | kergoth`work | tehy're already sort of doing this with the sanity classes and the tinderbox stuff |
| 19:41.47 | CosmicPenguin | yes |
| 19:43.57 | kergoth`work | i'm also thinking that the ability to set arbitrary attributes on metadata, and using that to differentiate functions from variables, and all that, while 'neat' and all, is somewhat messy, and there are better ways to allow extension and scripting of the system. the format still needs to stay directly parsed, but beyond that... |
| 19:46.59 | kergoth`work | course this really isnt the perfect channel to discuss it, but i expect the #oe folks might get all defensive instead of being helpful |
| 19:52.28 | CosmicPenguin | yep |
| 19:57.56 | Crofton | don't confuse the need to get work done today, with defensiveness though |
| 19:58.27 | kergoth`work | nah, its not that, but if they hear i'm thinking about starting from scratch, they'll take it as a criticism of the implemetnation |
| 19:58.39 | kergoth`work | when what i'm really after is a change in approach and focus thatlll also happen to fix some implementation issues |
| 19:59.39 | Crofton | the key there is to make certain you are solving real problems that people have |
| 19:59.55 | kergoth`work | there's no shortage of those |
| 20:00.04 | Crofton | at the moment most of us have work that needs to be done, that is not related to the guts of OE |
| 20:00.29 | kergoth`work | i don't plan on sucking away devs or users from oe, i figured i'd take it on myself, at least in part as an exercise |
| 20:00.38 | prpplague | kergoth`work: i'll have to read the log later, pretty swampped today |
| 20:00.39 | kergoth`work | i just like bouncing the ideas around first |
| 20:00.45 | kergoth`work | no worries |
| 20:06.18 | CosmicPenguin | OE works great for certain people |
| 20:06.22 | CosmicPenguin | it blows up for other people |
| 20:06.30 | CosmicPenguin | investigating why that is true is interesting |
| 20:06.43 | CosmicPenguin | it shouldn't detract from the people who can use OE |
| 20:06.51 | prpplague | agreed |
| 20:08.09 | MothaWork | I know we had to hack on OE here for about a week to get it to build anything close to what we wanted |
| 20:08.20 | MothaWork | and even still it's not entirely what we want; it just works well enough for development |
| 20:09.28 | kergoth`work | there's both usability and learning curve issues and actual functionality issues |
| 20:28.39 | *** join/#edev likewise (n=likewise@82-171-51-231.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 20:39.18 | prpplague | ok, check this out - http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4929282643.html |
| 20:39.21 | prpplague | note the date |
| 20:39.46 | prpplague | then check out this - http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8246055816.html |
| 20:39.48 | prpplague | note the date |
| 20:40.08 | prpplague | now, not once in 4 years have i been able to purchase an archos product |
| 20:40.41 | prpplague | never seen any of their products period |
| 20:44.57 | chouimat|work | prpplague: I have see them :) |
| 20:45.28 | prpplague | chouimat|work: you have? in a store? |
| 20:45.39 | chouimat|work | yes |
| 20:45.54 | prpplague | chouimat|work: interesting, what store? |
| 20:46.03 | chouimat|work | don't remember I was in Europe |
| 20:46.32 | prpplague | oh |
| 20:46.42 | prpplague | that figures |
| 20:47.28 | chouimat|work | and I know one store is/was carrying them |
| 20:47.56 | g1powermac | nice little devices |
| 20:48.07 | chouimat|work | prpplague: in ottawa |
| 20:48.12 | prpplague | ahh |
| 20:56.49 | *** join/#edev joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@adsl-69-152-219-141.dsl.fyvlar.swbell.net) |
| 21:03.14 | joe_bleau | I'm searching for an SBC with video out (VGA, s-video, composite, whatever), to drive a 42" TV as a sign. Want to show some text, maybe a bargraph. |
| 21:03.34 | joe_bleau | Not picky about CPU or OS or horsepower--I can do the heavy lifting elsewhere, if needed. |
| 21:04.00 | joe_bleau | Something that with 802.11b built in would be nice, but again, not required. |
| 21:04.03 | ds2 | One off? |
| 21:04.09 | ds2 | production? |
| 21:04.11 | joe_bleau | Sorta...need 4 for this project. |
| 21:04.18 | g1powermac | joe_bleau, maybe a mini-itx mobo? |
| 21:04.27 | ds2 | the webpals could do that nicely |
| 21:04.36 | joe_bleau | Yeah, if I could find four webpals. |
| 21:04.44 | joe_bleau | (I do have two, but they're mine.) |
| 21:04.51 | ds2 | I have 2 I could sell ;) |
| 21:05.00 | joe_bleau | No spinning media, no fans. |
| 21:05.14 | g1powermac | joe_bleau, there are mini-itx boards without fans |
| 21:05.20 | ds2 | but if you want to buy, the OMAP3 beagle might be an option |
| 21:05.22 | g1powermac | joe_bleau, I built a small cluster with them once |
| 21:05.23 | joe_bleau | The only catch with the Webpal is that I'd have to build a serial interface. |
| 21:05.39 | ds2 | you can order those interfaces from SFE if you want to be lazy ;) |
| 21:05.46 | chouimat|work | joe_bleau: http://www.glomationinc.com/products_9315.html |
| 21:05.50 | joe_bleau | I've looked at the beagle, but two issues: DK is out of stock, and I don't think you can buy more than one. |
| 21:06.01 | ds2 | oh |
| 21:06.04 | prpplague | joe_bleau: yea limited |
| 21:06.31 | joe_bleau | So far, the low-end option seems to be: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/4d-micro-vga-picaso-md1.html |
| 21:06.39 | prpplague | joe_bleau: i'd suggest going with a x86 board, you'll have a wall wart power, and much more robust for video |
| 21:06.46 | ds2 | not many good cheap options for ntsc out |
| 21:06.50 | joe_bleau | (Which is a step up from the last box I used.) |
| 21:07.04 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: who are you, and what have you done with dave? |
| 21:07.10 | g1powermac | still says to get a cheap via mini-itx. . . |
| 21:07.15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe, right tool for the right job |
| 21:07.17 | ds2 | i'd advise against x86 for ntsc out |
| 21:07.21 | joe_bleau | Doesn't have to be NTSC. Driving a Vizio 42", so HDMI or VGA would be ok. |
| 21:07.30 | ds2 | too many variables |
| 21:07.30 | prpplague | ds2: oh? |
| 21:07.35 | prpplague | ds2: ahh |
| 21:07.43 | ds2 | prpplague: there is no "standard" way of generating NTSC on x86 |
| 21:08.01 | ds2 | joe_bleau: use a MediaMVP box |
| 21:08.02 | prpplague | ds2: good point |
| 21:08.24 | chouimat|work | this might be nice http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/20/msi-wind-barebones-desktop-now-available-to-order/ |
| 21:08.43 | ds2 | MediaMVP already runs linux, spits out NTSC, has built in ethernet |
| 21:08.43 | chouimat|work | ds2: good idea :) |
| 21:08.55 | joe_bleau | Can it run my code? |
| 21:09.03 | ds2 | chouimat: you are familiar with mediamvp? |
| 21:09.11 | ds2 | joe_bleau: can you compile your code for PPC? :) |
| 21:09.18 | chouimat|work | ds2: I have one |
| 21:09.27 | joe_bleau | PPC: no problem. |
| 21:09.32 | ds2 | chouimat|, what are you running on it? |
| 21:09.42 | ds2 | joe_bleau: only catch is it must netboot |
| 21:09.50 | chouimat|work | ds2: didn't do much with it ... the day after I bought it I decided to get a PS3 |
| 21:09.50 | ds2 | no flash onboard |
| 21:10.18 | ds2 | chouimat: I see. did you get it new or when geeks.com had the refurbs? |
| 21:10.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: fun fun, the wfr has started |
| 21:10.46 | chouimat|work | ds2: I bought a new one ... it seems to be wireless too |
| 21:10.48 | joe_bleau | netboot would be a problem. Prefer serial or wireless. There won't be any cat-5 nearby. |
| 21:11.23 | ds2 | chouimat|, you got the new one! I am waiting for a cheap one of those to show up... I am using mind as a network to TV out media player |
| 21:11.52 | chouimat|work | ds2: that was my plan but I use my ps3 for this now :) |
| 21:14.30 | CosmicPenguin | wfr? |
| 21:16.12 | ds2 | isn't there an AVR32 board that will do it? |
| 21:18.14 | joe_bleau | AVR32: Hmm. I remember that board...does it have a video output? |
| 21:18.54 | chouimat|work | the stk1000 has vga but it's 500$ |
| 21:19.13 | ds2 | the $99 one does not? |
| 21:19.27 | chouimat|work | no and I have both of them |
| 21:20.39 | ds2 | Hmmmm wonder how much does an ARM versatile board go for |
| 21:20.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: work-force reduction |
| 21:20.46 | ds2 | those have VGA out |
| 21:21.06 | chouimat|work | ds2: probably cheaper to get a kurobox pro and a usb2vga :) |
| 21:21.12 | ds2 | hahahahah |
| 21:21.39 | joe_bleau | Yeah, that ARM board looks really pricey. |
| 21:22.08 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: ew - on a thursday? |
| 21:22.09 | CosmicPenguin | harsh |
| 21:22.15 | joe_bleau | Does technologic (sp?) offer VGA out? |
| 21:22.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed |
| 21:22.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no notice either, they escorted them out of the building |
| 21:23.44 | g1powermac | prpplague, hmm, fun |
| 21:23.51 | chouimat|work | prpplague: cool :) |
| 21:23.56 | ds2 | prpplague: is your favorite guy there still there? |
| 21:24.21 | prpplague | ds2: yep :( |
| 21:24.36 | prpplague | ds2: they are probably keeping me and him on to finish this project |
| 21:24.40 | chouimat|work | them?? |
| 21:24.55 | joe_bleau | Anybody play with one of these before: http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?product=TS-7300 |
| 21:25.11 | prpplague | chouimat: don't know the exact number |
| 21:25.19 | chouimat|work | sound bad |
| 21:25.21 | g1powermac | prpplague, when we have to let someone go, we don't even let them get in the building |
| 21:25.33 | g1powermac | prpplague, most of the time we tell them while they're still in their car |
| 21:26.12 | ds2 | g1powermac: and you install concrete barriers the night before? ;) |
| 21:26.17 | prpplague | g1powermac: well, not sure what kind of people you have working for you, but most of these were professional people, hard to imaging any of them creating a problem |
| 21:26.27 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: here it's a little bit more civilized: you have to go thru the 45 minutes of "Ass covering" and then you have 30 minutes to get your stuff and leave |
| 21:26.39 | g1powermac | prpplague, yea, the people we have are, umm, far from professional |
| 21:26.57 | joe_bleau | There's no way I could load my crap from the office in 30 minutes. |
| 21:26.59 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, we wouldn't even attempt that |
| 21:27.18 | prpplague | joe_bleau: me either, thats why i've been slowly taking it home, hehe |
| 21:27.21 | g1powermac | mainly because the firing is usually around bad workmanship or bad relations with other employees |
| 21:27.22 | chouimat|work | joe_bleau: they were giving me 10 minutes |
| 21:27.54 | joe_bleau | It'd probably take me a few hours just to go through the house and figure out what had to go back to the office. |
| 21:27.54 | g1powermac | you really can't get good workers in retail |
| 21:28.04 | *** join/#edev Redhatter (n=vk4fsjl@2001:388:f000:0:0:0:0:279) |
| 21:28.16 | g1powermac | and we pay quite a bit above the standard here for retail jobs |
| 21:29.34 | g1powermac | our current workforce is a mess atm |
| 21:29.38 | joe_bleau | So, if I go with the TS-7300, it looks like Debian with a 2.4 kernel is stock. |
| 21:29.55 | g1powermac | way too many conflicts between employees |
| 21:30.12 | ds2 | does the OSK5912 offer video out? |
| 21:30.33 | joe_bleau | What will be the easiest way (think quick-n-dirty) to put text and graphics on screen? |
| 21:30.37 | g1powermac | is happy not being at the store during this time |
| 21:30.51 | ds2 | make a image and use a image view on the frame buffer? |
| 21:31.05 | ds2 | dd a raw binary file into the frame buffer? |
| 21:31.42 | chouimat|work | joe_bleau: if the firmware has something that write on the frambuffer use this toolkit by writing a fullscreen application |
| 21:31.51 | joe_bleau | OK, that's a start. Any libs that can help with scaling and line draw? |
| 21:32.24 | chouimat|work | anyway I have to go ... beer time |
| 21:32.35 | ds2 | SDI maybe? |
| 21:32.41 | joe_bleau | I'd rather not have to make my own fonts. |
| 21:32.50 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-070.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:32.59 | g1powermac | heya RobotGuy |
| 21:33.08 | ds2 | you don't, you design it with inkscape, paint, etc then just export that as a PNG |
| 21:33.43 | joe_bleau | Sorry, the numbers and graphs will need to update in real time, say, every 10s or so. |
| 21:33.50 | joe_bleau | Wasn't clear about that from the beginning, I know. |
| 21:34.01 | ds2 | oh libGD then |
| 21:34.07 | CosmicPenguin | use a bitmap font |
| 21:34.10 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Hi |
| 21:34.14 | ds2 | there is a perl front end and it can spit out most common image formats |
| 21:34.26 | CosmicPenguin | all you need to implement is a blit |
| 21:34.30 | CosmicPenguin | maybe a fill |
| 21:34.33 | CosmicPenguin | those are memcpy routines |
| 21:34.39 | ds2 | libGD does all that |
| 21:34.49 | joe_bleau | libGS sounds familiar. Didnt' MRTG use it for the graphs? |
| 21:34.54 | ds2 | line, fill, text, copy, image formating |
| 21:35.09 | ds2 | could be, libGD is used in a lot of places |
| 21:35.15 | CosmicPenguin | can libGD render directly to the screen? |
| 21:35.18 | joe_bleau | Yeah, that sounds like it would cover my needs and maybe some future upgrades. |
| 21:35.22 | GPSFan | g1powermac: here now... |
| 21:35.28 | ds2 | that I donno |
| 21:35.48 | CosmicPenguin | because if not, then you will need the blit anyway |
| 21:35.49 | joe_bleau | I'm ok with rendering to a file, then displaying the file. Latency is not a concern. |
| 21:36.15 | CosmicPenguin | of course, libgd can abstract away reading the media types and whatnot |
| 21:36.18 | ds2 | whatever you don't, don't do it with a Windows box and Point point |
| 21:36.20 | ds2 | power point |
| 21:36.22 | g1powermac | GPSFan, ahh, cool, just wanted to check to see if you finished up packing the macs |
| 21:36.37 | ds2 | one company did that and 90% of the time, the screen shows a windows crash |
| 21:36.39 | g1powermac | oh dear: http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/21/2048226.shtml |
| 21:37.04 | joe_bleau | I have seen some SBCs with wince, but I'd rather avoid that. |
| 21:37.15 | ds2 | they did it with Vista ;) |
| 21:37.32 | ds2 | and this was a "Linux" company too |
| 21:37.38 | joe_bleau | I'm still requiring fanless, no spinning media... |
| 21:37.41 | GPSFan | g1powermac: unfortunately, not yet, I don't have a box big enough for the rest of the stuff, so there will be at least 2 more besides the monitor. an the bright side, you cna have my old plexor. (some re-assembly req'd) ;>) |
| 21:37.52 | ds2 | no spinning media is easy; 4G or better CF |
| 21:38.02 | ds2 | fanless is a bit harder |
| 21:38.28 | g1powermac | GPSFan, heh, cool, though how much reassembly required? :-) |
| 21:38.36 | GPSFan | g1powermac: not much |
| 21:38.41 | g1powermac | k |
| 21:38.57 | joe_bleau | Anyway, if I did run winders, I could have the display with the win32 api easy enough. But I wouldn't learn anything doing that. |
| 21:39.10 | g1powermac | GPSFan, man, I really should ship you a box. . .we get so many huge boxes |
| 21:39.27 | g1powermac | though that prolly would cost about as much as handling multiple smaller boxes here |
| 21:39.50 | GPSFan | g1powermac: I've got one for the cpu, and may be able to fit the pb in there too. but not the plextor. |
| 21:40.22 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 21:42.53 | g1powermac | still can't believe MS got seinfeld to do a commercial for them |
| 21:45.51 | joe_bleau | Why not? MS checks don't bounce. |
| 21:46.08 | RobotGuy | Does anyone know if any of the Sparkfun BT modules actually support more than just SPP? |
| 21:46.28 | RobotGuy | I'm not really sure what I need to do what I want to do. |
| 21:46.39 | ds2 | unless it was created by MS Money just before it crashed and forced a rebuild of the system ;) |
| 21:47.03 | ds2 | RobotGuy: AFAIK, the SFE BT modules only support SPP |
| 21:47.14 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@163.181.251.103) |
| 21:47.14 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 21:47.21 | RobotGuy | ds2: That is my thinking also and what I am assuming for now. |
| 21:47.56 | RobotGuy | I am wondering if that would be sufficient for connecting to a Wiimote and being able to read it. |
| 21:48.20 | GPSFan | g1powermac: ok, cpu & pb are packed up 16x 14x 14. no weight yet. |
| 21:48.36 | ds2 | aren't the Wii's HID? |
| 21:48.44 | RobotGuy | ds2: Yes. |
| 21:49.00 | ds2 | don't think HID is based on top of SPP |
| 21:49.06 | RobotGuy | prpplague said HID is in the software. |
| 21:49.23 | ds2 | yes, if you have access to the RFCOMM layer |
| 21:49.23 | RobotGuy | Or at least that's what I think he said. |
| 21:49.56 | RobotGuy | If the Sparkfun modules only do SPP, I doubt I have that access. |
| 21:50.21 | ds2 | it is a matter of firmware; the same modules with the HCI firmware will do it but SFE don't sell them that way |
| 21:50.47 | RobotGuy | ds2: That's why the modules are so inexpensive. |
| 21:50.57 | RobotGuy | I have one of them. |
| 21:51.14 | RobotGuy | It's based on the NXP BPB203 |
| 21:51.21 | RobotGuy | BGB203 |
| 21:51.25 | ds2 | RobotGuy: they are not inexpensive and no, there is no difference in price between an HCI flashed version and the AT command version; AFAIK |
| 21:51.35 | ds2 | $30 a pop is EXPENSIVE! |
| 21:51.50 | RobotGuy | Mine cost more than that - $59.95 |
| 21:52.07 | RobotGuy | (USD) |
| 21:52.08 | ds2 | thoguht they have cheaper ones now |
| 21:52.11 | ds2 | *shrug* |
| 21:52.12 | g1powermac | GPSFan, k |
| 21:52.28 | ds2 | if you got USB host, a USB dongle is cheaper, <$10 |
| 21:52.33 | RobotGuy | ds2: No, they are all around $55.00 - $65.00 |
| 21:52.51 | RobotGuy | Arduino does not have USB host |
| 21:54.41 | ds2 | RobotGuy: http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5103 |
| 21:54.54 | ds2 | RobotGuy: http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5101 |
| 21:55.20 | ds2 | 5103 is HCI firmware, 5101 is SPP (AT command firwamre like SFE); both for $26.66 |
| 21:59.38 | RobotGuy | Interesting. But would 5103 be able to commicate fully with a Wiimote? |
| 22:00.11 | ds2 | yes, with the right software; Linux has bluez that should work with it |
| 22:00.17 | ds2 | donno about the audrino though |
| 22:00.53 | RobotGuy | Hammer does not have bluez yet though, as far as I know. |
| 22:02.49 | RobotGuy | Hmmmm, that module is going to require some extra work to be usable. |
| 22:06.22 | RobotGuy | -sigh- |
| 22:55.55 | joe_bleau | Hey, maybe this is what I want: http://www.norhtec.com/products/mcjr/index.html |
| 22:58.04 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-162-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 22:58.10 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 23:00.06 | prpplague | solar ping |
| 23:00.42 | kergoth`work | anyone ever see mount.nfs output Internal Error? |
| 23:02.02 | CosmicPenguin | joe_bleau: just get an ALIX - its twice the clock speed for the same price |
| 23:02.12 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm |
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| 23:04.40 | joe_bleau | Yeah, I'm looking. Do they have a wlan option? |
| 23:06.06 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, it has a mini-pci slot |
| 23:08.41 | CosmicPenguin | plus, it runs coreboot for double plus hack points |
| 23:09.28 | joe_bleau | Is that the same as AwardBIOS? |
| 23:10.48 | CosmicPenguin | no |
| 23:11.33 | CosmicPenguin | www.coreboot.org |
| 23:13.25 | solar | prpplague: pong |
| 23:17.16 | prpplague | solar thoughts on a method to configure the builds for arduino/hammer? i was kinda thinking about using kconfig |
| 23:18.04 | solar | yes. |
| 23:18.37 | solar | it's so much cleaner to maintain a Makefile type of build system with lsdialog |
| 23:18.40 | solar | lxdialog |
| 23:19.05 | prpplague | yea, do a make menuconfig, setup the system type, features, and compiler name |
| 23:19.13 | kergoth`work | yeah its pretty easy to set up, too. the only complex part will be how you want to handle dependencies. |
| 23:19.21 | kergoth`work | i.e. autogenerate package deps based on the config |
| 23:20.06 | solar | deps? there is only 1 prgram |
| 23:20.18 | kergoth`work | ah, well better yet |
| 23:20.19 | prpplague | kergoth`work this is just a single program build |
| 23:20.21 | kergoth`work | :) |
| 23:20.23 | CosmicPenguin | if there is only one program, then why use kbuild? |
| 23:20.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin lots of possible options to enable |
| 23:21.10 | prpplague | the main target for this is people who don't know jack about build environment, so it has to be pretty darn easy |
| 23:23.35 | kergoth`work | either kconfig or autoconf will do |
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| 23:24.36 | CosmicPenguin | So you have to ask yourself - do you really need all the build options? |
| 23:24.55 | prpplague | yea i've cut it all down |
| 23:25.16 | prpplague | basically boils down to system type, default pin config, compiler path, and compiler name |
| 23:25.16 | solar | prpplague: If the goal is to keep it stupid. Then clearly Makefiles also fit in with the buildroot style tct ships on it's CD media today. It would be an upgrade to the linux using arduino folks but probably less portable (losing windows/mac users) |
| 23:27.09 | prpplague | yea, we only support dev under linux per se |
| 23:28.21 | prpplague | i was going to try and make it as generic as possible so that the arduino folks could use the build as well if they wanted to |
| 23:28.39 | prpplague | there seems to be alot of dissatifaction with the java ide |
| 23:43.12 | prpplague | kergoth`work if you have some time, you should look at the current arduino build system |
| 23:44.02 | kergoth`work | don't have time while i'm at work, and when i'm home i often don't feel like messing with code, but i'll try to take a look tonight |
| 23:48.42 | kergoth`work | huh, http://www.xmailserver.org/xdiff-lib.html is cute |
| 23:50.34 | CosmicPenguin | huh |
| 23:50.41 | CosmicPenguin | has to go |
| 23:51.20 | prpplague | kergoth`work np,i know the feeling |
| 23:52.01 | prpplague | kergoth`work just figured you might be able to use it as microuniverse to study with |
| 23:52.03 | kergoth`work | i usually read books or spend time with the gf or play with the dog or whatever at home.. though lately i've been getting interested in code due to thinking about this oe stuff... maybe thatll help |
| 23:52.25 | prpplague | indeed |
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