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| 00:04.51 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-244-162-73.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 00:05.29 | prpplague | solar ping |
| 00:15.38 | sunrunner20 | lunar pong |
| 00:15.53 | sunrunner20 | ;) |
| 00:15.59 | CP|home | okay, that was funny |
| 00:16.59 | sunrunner20 | yea its a good grin :) |
| 00:17.40 | prpplague | ugh, why do so many job postins ask for "experience writting windows ce and linux device drivers" |
| 00:18.24 | prpplague | oh here is dandy |
| 00:18.36 | prpplague | "Experience with VC++ on unix/linux platforms" |
| 00:20.06 | CP|home | I keep telling you - CE != regular windows |
| 00:20.36 | CP|home | if it wasn't owned by Microsoft, then many of us just might be working on it |
| 00:29.07 | RobotGuy | Well, maybe that company just needs somebody who can do drivers for both. |
| 00:29.30 | RobotGuy | VC++ on Linux is just too funny though. |
| 00:29.50 | agaffney | o_O |
| 00:29.59 | agaffney | I assume they just mean C++ :P |
| 00:30.31 | RobotGuy | agaffney: They might mean just wha they wrote, which would prove their cluelessness. |
| 00:30.49 | agaffney | I prefer to think that humanity isn't that far gone :P |
| 00:30.53 | prpplague | CP|home yea, i know windows ce != windows, but you can't really do both with compromising your ability to contribute to GPL code |
| 00:31.04 | CP|home | I disagree |
| 00:31.04 | prpplague | w/with/without |
| 00:31.06 | RobotGuy | Is Human Resources part of Humanity? |
| 00:31.39 | agaffney | RobotGuy: touche |
| 00:31.45 | prpplague | CP|home i've talked to three lawyers, all have said i couldn't do windows ce dev without compromising my ability to do GPL work |
| 00:32.15 | prpplague | CP|home do you know some one who does both? |
| 00:32.22 | CP|home | sure - we do both all the time |
| 00:32.37 | prpplague | CP|home you do windows ce dev? |
| 00:32.50 | CP|home | it a matter of understanding what you own and what other people owns |
| 00:33.12 | prpplague | CP|home you told me you didn't because you were afraid of the nda issues |
| 00:33.30 | CP|home | I'm under a NDA for our products anyway |
| 00:33.53 | CP|home | Anyway, I don't do CE dev, but we do have people that do both |
| 00:34.10 | prpplague | CP|home i'd love to talk to one |
| 00:34.59 | prpplague | i'm still at a complete loss as to what to do about working at AML |
| 00:36.03 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I just found out that Robert Sheer is moving, possibly out of state. |
| 00:36.18 | prpplague | oh yea where to? |
| 00:36.42 | prpplague | i've only spoken to him a couple of times, all the robotics stuff dried up with the hammer |
| 00:37.17 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I don't know where yet, but he's looking at farms. |
| 00:37.51 | RobotGuy | prpplague: That will hopefully change when I can show a Hammer-RDP. |
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| 00:46.13 | CP|home | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8783 |
| 00:46.21 | CP|home | something fun for you smart people |
| 00:47.40 | prpplague | CP|home hehe yea, thats just one step above a breakout board |
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| 00:48.52 | RobotGuy | I like that it comes without headers installed. |
| 00:49.03 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Welcome back! |
| 00:49.20 | g1powermac_PB | hey RobotGuy |
| 00:49.26 | g1powermac_PB | is at the hospital once again |
| 00:49.40 | g1powermac_PB | this time a different hospital |
| 00:51.23 | RobotGuy | One could make a very small stack using that new Arduino Pro. |
| 00:55.05 | RobotGuy | -cough- My smoke alarm went off. :( |
| 00:55.42 | RobotGuy | I forgot I had beans cooking. :( |
| 00:58.03 | agaffney | heh |
| 00:58.17 | RobotGuy | It's still chirping though. |
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| 00:59.16 | RobotGuy | I can't smell smoke. |
| 00:59.40 | g1powermac_PB | hmm, much nicer hospital |
| 00:59.56 | g1powermac_PB | they actually do triage first before having you sit for three hours |
| 01:00.01 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Good! Did they take proper care of you? |
| 01:00.20 | g1powermac_PB | RobotGuy: they at least looked at you right away |
| 01:00.44 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Hopefully, they looked at YOU. :p |
| 01:00.45 | g1powermac_PB | instead of waiting two hours before even seeing a nurse |
| 01:01.21 | g1powermac_PB | should've went here yesterday |
| 01:01.28 | prpplague | solar give me a shout when you have time |
| 01:01.41 | g1powermac_PB | I don't have bad pain today, so I can wait |
| 01:02.16 | *** part/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:04.33 | CP|home | yay - got the rest of my parts in for halloween |
| 01:04.39 | CP|home | now I just have to wire up the sucker |
| 01:12.13 | prpplague | CP|home you gonna doc it? |
| 01:13.11 | prpplague | CP|home are you gonna order an arduino board? |
| 01:13.55 | prpplague | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8255 |
| 01:14.03 | prpplague | i just don't understand why that is soo expensive |
| 01:16.11 | sunrunner20 | probally the bluetooth |
| 01:16.40 | prpplague | sunrunner20 you can get an arduino board for about $25 and a bluetooth module for $35 |
| 01:16.47 | prpplague | thats $60 |
| 01:17.03 | prpplague | why would you pay twice that for the same thing? |
| 01:17.35 | sunrunner20 | its already on there? |
| 01:18.22 | prpplague | no but only takes a minute to solder 4 wires |
| 01:18.37 | sunrunner20 | thres a lot more than 4 there |
| 01:19.17 | prpplague | uh no if you look at the schematic its just power ground txd rxd |
| 01:20.39 | sunrunner20 | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/images/products/08771-02-L_i_ma.jpg |
| 01:22.07 | prpplague | sunrunner20 i didn't say there were more solder points, but they only use 4 |
| 01:22.38 | sunrunner20 | its not like sparkfun to not solder the rest out though |
| 01:22.53 | sunrunner20 | some of those can be used |
| 01:23.14 | prpplague | like i said, i there are more pins but the arduino only uses 4 |
| 01:23.38 | sunrunner20 | and sparkfun breaks out the rest :) |
| 01:24.05 | sunrunner20 | damn good job too, they're even on the back lol |
| 01:24.42 | prpplague | we must be looking at somethine different |
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| 01:27.29 | sunrunner20 | http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8255 |
| 01:28.01 | sunrunner20 | the underside of the board |
| 01:28.14 | prpplague | sunrunner20 i stand corrected, there are 5 pins power, ground, txd,rxd and reset |
| 01:28.46 | sunrunner20 | pish posh +-1 |
| 01:29.06 | sunrunner20 | :) |
| 01:29.58 | sunrunner20 | i'm just saying your paying for a sparkfun quality board :) |
| 01:30.34 | prpplague | sunrunner20 you can by both items at sparkfun 1/2 the cost |
| 01:32.03 | sunrunner20 | yup and solder it together yourself |
| 01:32.44 | sunrunner20 | its classic time cost benifit |
| 01:32.45 | prpplague | 5 wires?you are telling me 5 wires is worth $75? |
| 01:33.10 | sunrunner20 | 5 wires if you suck at soldering :) |
| 01:33.39 | sunrunner20 | the module isn't exactly .1" centers ^_^ |
| 01:33.45 | prpplague | come on, they are all .1" centers, my 11 year old son could do that |
| 01:35.02 | sunrunner20 | the bluetooth is 1mm pitch |
| 01:35.24 | prpplague | sunrunner20 the breakout board is .1" |
| 01:35.49 | sunrunner20 | linky? |
| 01:35.51 | prpplague | sunrunner20 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8332 |
| 01:35.56 | prpplague | sunrunner20 even has the level shifters |
| 01:36.08 | prpplague | sunrunner20 its $50 plus $25 for the arduino |
| 01:36.22 | prpplague | sunrunner20 thats $75, the arduino bt board is $150 |
| 01:36.23 | sunrunner20 | ah, but if people wanted that exact bluetooth |
| 01:36.44 | sunrunner20 | they're stuck w/ $75 or 1mm pitch |
| 01:37.14 | prpplague | nothing special about that one |
| 01:38.08 | sunrunner20 | and 11 year olds + soldering iron... burnt myself doing that lol |
| 01:38.25 | sunrunner20 | then again |
| 01:38.33 | prpplague | sunrunner20 my son has never had a problem soldering |
| 01:38.35 | sunrunner20 | 20 year old + soldering iron.. still burn myself |
| 01:38.44 | sunrunner20 | *burnt |
| 01:38.53 | prpplague | i just don't by that its worth $75.00 more |
| 01:38.58 | prpplague | maybe $25 more |
| 01:39.00 | sunrunner20 | Guess its just me >_< |
| 01:39.00 | prpplague | not 75 |
| 01:39.31 | sunrunner20 | I'm sure I would have less issues w/ burning myself if I had my other iron |
| 01:39.47 | sunrunner20 | too bad dad (*$%&#*$U#()*#()$* broke it |
| 01:40.22 | sunrunner20 | not sure HOW he managed it |
| 01:40.33 | sunrunner20 | he SNAPED the soldering iron in half |
| 01:41.14 | sunrunner20 | if I ever get a spare $150 i'm buying a new wand |
| 01:41.20 | sunrunner20 | because I LOVE that station |
| 01:41.57 | sunrunner20 | its an old SMT rework station :) |
| 01:42.08 | sunrunner20 | so I can buy a rework wand for it ^_^ |
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| 02:52.00 | prpplague | ~seen landley |
| 02:52.05 | purl | landley <n=landley@rrcs-24-153-221-110.sw.biz.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #edev, 6d 2h 9m 9s ago, saying: 'Building glibc under uClibc is unpleasant.'. |
| 03:08.49 | prpplague | CP|home ping |
| 03:09.04 | CP|home | hi |
| 03:10.13 | prpplague | CP|home seriously, you think you could put me in contact with one of the folks you know that does both windows ce and linux driver dev? |
| 03:11.16 | CP|home | I'll try, but the group I'm thinking of had an adventure today\ |
| 03:11.19 | CP|home | http://www.mercurynews.com/businessheadlines/ci_10301515 |
| 03:11.26 | CP|home | Their heads might be elsewhere |
| 03:12.50 | prpplague | looks |
| 03:13.13 | prpplague | ahh interesting |
| 03:14.11 | prpplague | CP|home i'd like to be able to do some basic windows ce bringup |
| 03:14.28 | prpplague | CP|home but i'm totally scared of licensing/nda issues |
| 03:15.40 | CP|home | have you seen the NDA? |
| 03:17.13 | prpplague | CP|home no i've not read it all the way, the lawyers i paid looked at ti |
| 03:17.14 | prpplague | it |
| 03:17.24 | prpplague | CP|home have you? |
| 03:17.36 | ds2 | and all you heard back was screams? ;) |
| 03:17.54 | prpplague | ds2 indeed |
| 03:18.04 | CP|home | I never see any NDAs |
| 03:18.06 | CP|home | they get signed for me |
| 03:18.18 | prpplague | ds2 all three catagorically said if i agreed to the the NDA i'd never be able to do GPL work again |
| 03:22.19 | prpplague | CP|home but you have never seen the windows ce source and bootloaders? |
| 03:24.01 | CP|home | Nope |
| 03:24.10 | CP|home | only the open stuff |
| 03:25.01 | prpplague | hmm |
| 03:25.21 | CP|home | mostly the open stuff - I found a hidden member of the boot_info structure with simnow once |
| 03:26.02 | CP|home | I guess I've seen our own code, but that doesn't count |
| 03:26.05 | prpplague | CP|home well, make a note, if you can put me in contact with someone there, i'd be grateful, i don't want to risk my status on doing gpl dev unless i know there is a proper path |
| 03:26.30 | CP|home | I would keep in mind that we don't do bring up |
| 03:26.46 | CP|home | we do end device drivers - that might have some bearing on it |
| 03:27.26 | prpplague | yea |
| 03:29.49 | prpplague | CP|home hehe, think my request to join "Linux Experts" group on linkedin will get approved? hehe |
| 03:30.08 | CP|home | I don't think any of these groups are very exclusionary |
| 03:40.13 | ds2 | there is a Linux experts group? what are the members? |
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| 05:17.59 | solar | otherwise... You are not far off the form factor of the existing arduino line... few sideways pin and you can call it a year... |
| 05:18.08 | solar | erp |
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| 05:55.38 | solar | but http://www.avrtv.com/2008/08/25/in-depth-stk500/ |
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| 06:58.43 | methril | hola |
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| 07:10.02 | [AD]Turbo | hola |
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| 10:22.08 | HcE | anybody here who knows why ECC in NAND flash is inverted before storing into the flash? |
| 10:22.20 | HcE | At least Linux does it like that |
| 10:23.23 | HcE | hmmm, or perhaps I can not read |
| 10:23.34 | HcE | I try to implement a Linux compatible ECC |
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| 11:33.36 | HcE | hmm, it works, but I do not really understand how it can do that |
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| 13:37.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: greetings |
| 13:37.58 | GPSFan | prpplague: morning.. |
| 13:47.00 | g1powermac_PB | morning GPSFan and prpplague |
| 13:47.16 | GPSFan | g1powermac: g'day |
| 13:48.33 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 13:49.07 | g1powermac_PB | is soo fried |
| 13:49.46 | g1powermac_PB | gone to the hospital twice in that many days |
| 13:50.09 | g1powermac_PB | and they still don't want to give me emergency surgery to remove the stupid gallbladder |
| 13:58.09 | solar | prpplague: pong |
| 13:58.22 | prpplague | solar: ping ?? |
| 13:58.34 | prpplague | doesn't remember pinging solar this morning |
| 13:59.51 | solar | it was not this morn. Responding to. 12:05AM <prpplague> solar ping / 12:15AM <sunrunner20> lunar pong |
| 14:00.25 | prpplague | solar: oh , was just letting you know i was available for questions at that time, sorry |
| 14:00.34 | prpplague | solar: i got your message about the M5930 |
| 14:00.43 | prpplague | solar: gonna look at a new rev at lunch |
| 14:00.56 | prpplague | solar: i think we have a kit going to be done soon |
| 14:01.32 | solar | as in night rider? KIT :) |
| 14:04.19 | prpplague | solar: sorry, a "kit" usually refers to all the parts nessary to build up a product which are sent to the assembly house |
| 14:04.53 | prpplague | solar: we are almost out of M5930's which means we will be building up some more to replace stock |
| 14:05.02 | prpplague | solar: at that time i can rev the board |
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| 14:07.12 | solar | prpplague: how many DIO/AIO ports can you expose in total? |
| 14:07.24 | solar | s/ports/pins/ |
| 14:08.17 | prpplague | solar: all of the standard atmega128 pins |
| 14:08.40 | prpplague | solar: the main problem will be getting them in an organized header |
| 14:10.17 | solar | prpplague: so one cool thing about the arduino's design is that it allows for stacking. |
| 14:10.40 | prpplague | solar: yea? |
| 14:11.03 | solar | Not sure how much wiggle room you have within the plastic case. But that would sure be a cool feature |
| 14:11.27 | prpplague | solar: i never found the stacking a feature i was interested in, but thats just me |
| 14:11.52 | prpplague | solar: i can have the stackable headers, its just that we won't populate them on our usage |
| 14:12.39 | solar | prpplague: then leaving a strip of pins along the sides the same way you do on the nail might be cool. |
| 14:13.00 | solar | to allow for ppl to add a header strip. |
| 14:13.07 | solar | or. |
| 14:13.12 | prpplague | yea kind of what i had in mind |
| 14:14.32 | solar | If you notice the size of your board. It's nearly the same size as the other mainline arduino's If you had one You could measure it. Then call your own board a shield itself. |
| 14:14.41 | solar | which opens you up to sales right away. |
| 14:14.48 | solar | you have any deals with SFE? |
| 14:15.00 | prpplague | solar: deals? |
| 14:15.14 | solar | ie can they be a reseller? |
| 14:16.23 | prpplague | solar: no we have no deals with SFE, you have to remember AML has always been a B2B operation, dealing with hobbists and small developers is something new for AML/TCT and management isn't 100% convinced it is worth their time |
| 14:17.20 | solar | prpplague: it's not worth the time. Small money and lots of demands/requests. |
| 14:18.43 | prpplague | solar: yea, but as the economy is slowing down, capital investments like new handhelds and IT infrastructure are one of the first items to get cut, so we are expecting a big drop in sales by 2Q of 2009 |
| 14:19.40 | solar | Neat. Alot of this applies to the 100 board. http://www.avrtv.com/2008/08/25/in-depth-stk500/ |
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| 14:30.12 | prpplague | solar: 100 board? |
| 14:31.03 | solar | stk100 |
| 14:31.58 | prpplague | ahh ok |
| 14:32.16 | prpplague | did his own isp programmer that is similar to the stk200 |
| 14:32.36 | chouimat|work | stk100? I thought it was stk1000 |
| 14:33.42 | solar | So anyway. Just now testing the morse.c updates. Something strange is happening when I include it. |
| 14:34.17 | solar | as in my serial console goes to downhill as long as I include that block of code |
| 14:34.43 | prpplague | solar: thats odd |
| 14:35.07 | prpplague | solar: btw, the andrew guy over on #arduino was a little upset about you removing his comments and such |
| 14:37.05 | solar | prpplague: wonder why that would be. I never used his code directly. |
| 14:37.17 | CosmicPenguin | fun day - my monitor went out |
| 14:37.25 | solar | infact he never got it working. And this entire point was to simply show him how to do it right. |
| 14:37.36 | CosmicPenguin | luckily the scavaging is good |
| 14:37.58 | prpplague | solar: yea, thats what i thought, but i figured i'd let you know, just fyi |
| 14:38.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 14:38.16 | solar | thanks. I'll be sure to find one of those trouts to slap with him |
| 14:38.21 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed, i've already gotten a new LCD from an empty desk |
| 14:38.25 | chouimat|work | arrrgggg forgot to enable sshd on the remote server ... and I don't feel like having a 1h30 trip just to go there, enable it and get back here |
| 14:38.54 | CosmicPenguin | chouimat|work: maybe next time you will learn |
| 14:38.55 | g1powermac_PB | wishes he could scavenge up some LCD monitors |
| 14:39.10 | g1powermac_PB | I did find a nice 17" crt for $10 a week ago |
| 14:39.22 | chouimat|work | CosmicPenguin: I will and I have to go near the colocation place on my way home ... |
| 14:42.47 | solar | wishes g1powermac would come take all his spare power hungry CRT's |
| 14:46.09 | chouimat|work | hehe |
| 14:46.35 | chouimat|work | rpmbuild -ba glibc.spec |
| 14:46.40 | chouimat|work | oops wrong window |
| 15:00.27 | MothaWork | chouimat|work: run "su" next time you try to use IRC as a shell |
| 15:01.04 | chouimat|work | :) |
| 15:01.16 | solar | Password: |
| 15:01.34 | chouimat|work | 1LuvTh0NgS |
| 15:01.42 | solar | good one |
| 15:01.49 | chouimat|work | solar: :) |
| 15:02.23 | chouimat|work | solar: annoying to type :) |
| 15:02.33 | solar | prpplague: so it's pretty odd. Simply including that file for sure messes up the Serial.print functions. |
| 15:07.44 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.128.57) |
| 15:09.20 | prpplague | solar: redefinition somewhere? |
| 15:10.29 | solar | prpplague: perhaps. I'm trying to rename a few variables now. http://rafb.net/p/HsA57C73.html |
| 15:18.47 | prpplague | wow, i've been running the handheld on backup battery for 1.5 hours |
| 15:24.05 | prpplague | 92 minutes on a full charged backup |
| 15:24.11 | prpplague | thats not too bad at all |
| 15:24.51 | chouimat|work | nice |
| 15:28.18 | solar | prpplague: think I found it. Any reference to matrix[(int)code] even if it's 100% unused causes it. |
| 15:30.09 | prpplague | solar: hmm, odd, that works on the x86 side |
| 15:30.48 | prpplague | solar: oh fudge, that is a typo i think |
| 15:30.50 | prpplague | looks |
| 15:31.13 | *** join/#edev Ian_Daniher (n=it@204.10.219.119) |
| 15:31.33 | prpplague | solar: that should be matrix[(int)c] |
| 15:32.18 | prpplague | solar: but try it was matrix[c] as a test, you'll get a warning but it should work |
| 15:32.21 | solar | I changed it from c to code. Was renaming stuff. |
| 15:33.04 | solar | to avoid any conflicts. I had #define c SOME_FREQ conflict with char c elsewhere |
| 15:36.48 | solar | strange. It just hates on that really bad. (int) (unsigned int) or w/o any type casting. Loves matrix[0] however |
| 15:37.30 | prpplague | solar: hmm, works fine on x86, i'll have to look at lunch |
| 15:37.50 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: damn straight it works fine on x86 |
| 15:38.31 | solar | prpplague: yeah. It's not really clear yet why it's not working solid. shrug. |
| 15:38.52 | solar | hunts for the pepto.. long day in SFO today.. |
| 15:39.07 | prpplague | solar: i gotta finish this PM code, i'll see i can look at lunch |
| 15:41.46 | solar | prpplague: it's really low priority. I'll mess with it later. |
| 16:17.57 | *** join/#edev EI5GTB__ (n=Paul@78.16.45.45) |
| 16:42.19 | MothaWork | prpplague: if I may ask, do you know about how many revs you guys go through on hardware from first prototype through the actual revision that gets first shipped to end users? |
| 16:43.17 | prpplague | MothaWork: we _normally_ do 5 to 6 revs |
| 16:43.23 | MothaWork | ok |
| 16:43.29 | MothaWork | that sounds about right |
| 16:44.16 | prpplague | 1 proto design usually not form factor, 2 form factor design, 1 bug fix rev, and 1 preproduction rev |
| 16:46.00 | MothaWork | seems about what happened here |
| 16:46.02 | prpplague | MothaWork: that is normal here, but since we've had this EE all that has been tossed out the window |
| 16:46.11 | MothaWork | I see... more revs I take it? |
| 16:47.34 | prpplague | we skipped the proto phase and went directly to form factor, and since the EE hasn't been consulting with anyone, we've had tons of revs |
| 16:56.25 | CosmicPenguin | I need some marketing advice |
| 16:56.37 | CosmicPenguin | What would be a good name for a driver based on this: |
| 16:56.38 | MothaWork | prpplague: well, you can do that if you talk to your plastic people and get an up-front description of what needs to happen |
| 16:56.39 | CosmicPenguin | http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/sysinternals/watchdog.mspx |
| 16:56.58 | MothaWork | prpplague: of course, that tends to lengthen the time to first prototype, which means the software people need dev kits |
| 16:57.35 | prpplague | MothaWork: the proto phase is for debugging the hardware, if you go straight to formfactor, its a beoych to probe and to white wire test fixes |
| 16:58.14 | MothaWork | prpplague: depends on the formfactor. I guess with what you guys do, that would frequently be the case |
| 16:58.19 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@78-105-167-16.zone3.bethere.co.uk) |
| 16:58.20 | MothaWork | handhelds tend to be cramped |
| 16:58.21 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: doberman ? hehe |
| 16:58.30 | CosmicPenguin | I don't get it |
| 16:58.38 | CosmicPenguin | oh, watchdog |
| 16:58.38 | CosmicPenguin | cute |
| 16:59.11 | prpplague | MothaWork: yea, 1) new parts never used before 2) new features 3) lots of new connectors |
| 16:59.23 | prpplague | MothaWork: prototype 2 layers, formfactor 10 |
| 16:59.42 | prpplague | you can do 3 revs of the proto for the same cost as one formfactor |
| 16:59.50 | MothaWork | ah, indeed |
| 17:00.09 | prpplague | MothaWork: http://www.elinux.org/M5900 thats the style of proto design we normally use |
| 17:00.13 | MothaWork | I try to get some formfactor-ness into my early protos just to get a feel for what specs my PCBs will require and if things are feasible or not |
| 17:00.24 | MothaWork | that and so that I don't have to totally scrap the layout |
| 17:00.44 | MothaWork | however, in a true handheld, that may defeat the purpose of things by making debugging impossible |
| 17:01.49 | MothaWork | the current designs are sitting at rev 3 or 4 |
| 17:01.53 | MothaWork | and that's what's shipping |
| 17:02.19 | MothaWork | rev 4. was generally a pure bugfix, rev. 2-3 was the formfactor tweaks, and rev. 1 was a concept prototype with the rough formfactor |
| 17:02.50 | MothaWork | the purely digital board I did in 3 revs, the mixed signal stuff and power supply board took 4 |
| 17:03.14 | prpplague | MothaWork: yea that sounds right |
| 17:03.50 | MothaWork | on low volume stuff, proto revs eat into final cost so much that I try to keep the number down |
| 17:04.09 | MothaWork | of course, there's a tradeoff if you end up with a totally unusable rev causing more revs than if you'd been less agressive |
| 17:08.46 | solar | how bad is it to under power a device? |
| 17:09.05 | solar | ie bad for the device? |
| 17:11.15 | prpplague | solar: usually doesn't damaged anything, just causes the system to not work properly |
| 17:11.23 | prpplague | solar: much more damaging to over power a device |
| 17:12.00 | prpplague | solar: most systems use a LDO for power, so they have a range of supported voltages |
| 17:12.13 | prpplague | solar: for example the hammer uses a ldo for the +5v input |
| 17:12.33 | prpplague | solar: which means technically, the hammer will work from +3.9v to around +6v as an input |
| 17:14.15 | MothaWork | solar: on devices with use a SMPS, it may cause excessively high current draw, damaging the input power section. Most SMPSs will shut down before that happens, though |
| 17:14.33 | solar | cant seem to get enough juice from the sun directly (on a 15.4V@150mA panel stepped down to 5V) to run the nail with no other power source |
| 17:14.36 | MothaWork | or, if you go too low, they'll start to drop out, and the device will function incorrectly |
| 17:14.49 | MothaWork | how are you stepping that 15.4V down? |
| 17:16.33 | prpplague | probably a 7805, hehe |
| 17:16.45 | solar | 7805 voltage regulator/50V 1u cap/102 ceramic capacitor |
| 17:16.51 | prpplague | solar: you need a good switching power supply to get the efficiency you need |
| 17:17.08 | prpplague | solar: you are loosing 66% of your power |
| 17:18.43 | solar | hrmm lets see. You sent me a natsemi/Max vin +25V/ VO = 5V +- 5%/imax = .5a |
| 17:19.12 | prpplague | solar: that probably would do the trick |
| 17:19.15 | MothaWork | yeah, a linear is not the best option here |
| 17:19.31 | MothaWork | you're burning 2x the power as heat that you're delivering to your load device |
| 17:19.41 | prpplague | solar: when using something like the 7805, droping the voltage from 15 to 5 most of the power is lost in heat |
| 17:20.13 | prpplague | solar: you can see why solar dev isn't as clear cut as many people think |
| 17:23.51 | solar | other one seems to yeild power but not enough either. But thanks. I'll make the switch to the switching power supply |
| 17:24.03 | solar | heads to SFO now. |
| 17:33.44 | *** join/#edev adyer (n=adyer@adsl-69-223-13-78.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) |
| 17:50.34 | MothaWork | hah, I numbered a bunch of connectors backwards apparently. Fortunately, so did our cable makers! |
| 17:51.36 | adyer | fire the cable makers :-) |
| 18:05.11 | prpplague | sfo? |
| 18:07.05 | prpplague | is that an airport code or a conference? |
| 18:13.14 | *** join/#edev DrZimmerman (n=theo@77-56-255-250.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:40.53 | prpplague | argh, made a stupid mistake, hate it when that happens |
| 18:41.10 | g1powermac_PB | yea |
| 18:42.11 | prpplague | wasted about an hour trying to debug a charging circuit, ended up on of the powersupplies on the main board wasn't even populated |
| 18:42.18 | prpplague | s/on/one |
| 18:42.26 | g1powermac_PB | doh |
| 18:44.52 | prpplague | yea real bone head item |
| 18:48.26 | g1powermac_PB | err |
| 18:48.32 | g1powermac_PB | sometimes I really don't like firefox |
| 18:49.01 | g1powermac_PB | it just now decided to use up 80% of my cpu for no real reason |
| 18:56.16 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB: that's really cool feature, it back's up all your pr0n on a regular schedule |
| 18:56.34 | g1powermac_PB | hehe |
| 19:09.15 | MothaWork | I really dislike how they're shoving FF3 on everybody |
| 19:09.21 | MothaWork | I know they want to EOL FF2, but FF3 sucks |
| 19:09.44 | MothaWork | I can use an alternate browser on Linux, but I don't have many other choices on Windows (since IE isn't a valid choice) |
| 19:09.47 | MothaWork | I guess I could go grab Opera |
| 19:19.48 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 19:20.11 | prpplague | wow gonna have to get used to the new lcd |
| 19:28.43 | *** join/#edev Ei5GTB_ (n=Paul@78.16.45.45) |
| 19:29.04 | *** join/#edev drath_ (i=vmaster@p5B07FDBE.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:33.30 | prpplague | argh, the lcd i just stole has a dead pixel |
| 19:34.26 | Crofton | justice is served! |
| 19:34.38 | prpplague | indeed |
| 19:36.18 | agaffney | heh |
| 19:37.15 | prpplague | oh well, its better than the one i had |
| 19:37.28 | prpplague | just gonna have to get used to using such a large desktop |
| 19:37.36 | CosmicPenguin | life sucks, huh? |
| 19:37.55 | prpplague | indeed |
| 19:38.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: might as well enjoy the perks till the WFR hits home |
| 19:38.50 | CosmicPenguin | One perk is fliping the finger and burning some bridges as you don't let the door hit your butt on the way out |
| 19:40.23 | prpplague | hehe |
| 19:40.32 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, if it comes to that |
| 19:41.55 | *** join/#edev ds2 (i=noinf@netblock-66-245-251-24.dslextreme.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:42.11 | prpplague | trying to get my resume all updated |
| 19:42.22 | prpplague | finding it hard to get everything on one page |
| 19:42.33 | CosmicPenguin | you don't apologize for being experienced |
| 19:42.42 | kergoth | hmm, elinux.org sure has a lot more info than it used to. is celf working with it, or are they still completely independent/ |
| 19:43.22 | prpplague | kergoth: they are still independent of elinux, but celf sponsors it and the celf folks post alot of info |
| 19:43.31 | kergoth | ah, cool |
| 19:43.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hmm, i was always told you should keep your resume down to one page |
| 19:43.51 | CosmicPenguin | yeah, but come on |
| 19:43.58 | CosmicPenguin | how can you list all the cool project you've done on one page? |
| 19:44.07 | kergoth | heh, even 2 can be tough to manage, one is just no way |
| 19:44.12 | kergoth | i wouldnt go more than 2 though |
| 19:44.42 | prpplague | i've usually customized the resume for the job so i can keep it to one page, but i guess two isn't bad |
| 19:46.05 | CosmicPenguin | crap! I forgot the url to my resume |
| 19:46.11 | CosmicPenguin | how embarrasing |
| 19:46.14 | prpplague | hehe |
| 19:46.39 | prpplague | http://www.daspimpdaddy.com/CosmicPenguin.html |
| 19:46.56 | CosmicPenguin | hmm - I need to resolve that |
| 19:47.05 | kergoth | i've heard conflicting info on the whole resume customization thing. some people say its best to do so, others say you shouldn't hide info from them unnecessarily, not knowing what about their setup might not be in the job posting, and instead to put a nice custom cover page |
| 19:47.41 | prpplague | yea i've heard that one as well |
| 19:48.31 | prpplague | goes to pick up his critters from the central brainwashing facility |
| 19:48.34 | prpplague | bbiab |
| 19:48.49 | kergoth | ponders |
| 20:15.25 | MothaWork | prpplague: it's common practice for new people fresh out of school to limit to 1 page, but if it takes extra to list experience, then that's OK |
| 20:15.38 | MothaWork | over 2 pages should be considered only if absolutely necessary, though |
| 20:18.02 | MothaWork | kergoth: I used to have two versions of my resume: one intended for HR with lots of keywords and fluff; the other intended for engineering with actual technical stuff that didn't hit keywords as well |
| 20:18.14 | MothaWork | I found that inevitably, people got the wrong version |
| 20:19.12 | kergoth | hehe |
| 20:19.12 | kergoth | of course |
| 20:34.46 | prpplague | kergoth: hehe, wanna move back to dfw area? hehe |
| 20:35.11 | kergoth | heh, i liked dallas, but the weather, not so much. here it's at least not humid :P |
| 20:35.27 | prpplague | indeed |
| 20:36.53 | prpplague | interesting, anyone used the AD725? |
| 20:41.32 | prpplague | doh +5v part |
| 20:43.00 | prpplague | that would be real dandy to get working with the hammer |
| 20:47.54 | prpplague | hmm, probably could use the lcd controler |
| 20:49.47 | MothaWork | prpplague: yes |
| 20:49.55 | prpplague | hmm, that could work even better than the chrone tell part |
| 20:49.58 | adyer | prpplague: still 5V but maybe http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4343.pdf |
| 20:50.03 | MothaWork | if you want to use the LCD controller, just use one of their encoders |
| 20:50.08 | MothaWork | they take digital in and output NTSC |
| 20:50.17 | MothaWork | no need for the D/A followed by the encoder |
| 20:50.25 | prpplague | adyer: i just check it does support ttl level i/o just +5v powered |
| 20:50.33 | prpplague | adyer: their flyer wasn't too informative |
| 20:50.51 | CosmicPenguin | imagine that |
| 20:51.00 | prpplague | MothaWork: yea, i looked, seemed a little too complicated for what i wanted |
| 20:51.06 | CosmicPenguin | vendors never have bad documentation - thats crazy talk |
| 20:51.16 | MothaWork | prpplague: but a D/A followed by AD725 isn't? |
| 20:51.32 | prpplague | MothaWork: let me rephrase |
| 20:51.48 | prpplague | MothaWork: a resistor ladder and AD725 is much easier for the hobbists to build |
| 20:52.05 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea the datasheet was decent, but the flyer was terrible |
| 20:52.10 | MothaWork | seems like a lot of error prone work to get around a package |
| 20:52.22 | MothaWork | though if you only want a few bits worth, I guess it's doable |
| 20:52.43 | prpplague | MothaWork: yea, 3:3:2 |
| 20:52.54 | prpplague | MothaWork: adv7170? used that one? |
| 20:53.04 | MothaWork | prpplague: I think I have some samples, but I haven't used them yet |
| 20:53.22 | adyer | I've used ADV7170 |
| 20:53.41 | prpplague | adyer: going from a lcd controller? |
| 20:54.12 | MothaWork | prpplague: anything that can output video data in the right format should work |
| 20:54.16 | MothaWork | and TFT LCD controllers usually can |
| 20:54.27 | prpplague | thats what i thought |
| 20:54.56 | MothaWork | I think mine might be a 7171 or something. It's very similar but has 12-bit data input capability |
| 20:55.06 | adyer | sorry was adv7120, driven from fpga |
| 20:55.47 | MothaWork | ADI has a lot of very similar video encoders/decoders |
| 20:55.59 | MothaWork | prpplague: TI has some nice options in this realm, too |
| 20:56.17 | prpplague | hmm |
| 20:59.04 | prpplague | MothaWork: i think i could use the 725 with 3:3:2 resistor ladder, and the stn controller on the hammer |
| 20:59.45 | MothaWork | STN mode? that seems odd |
| 21:00.19 | MothaWork | TFT mode tends to just be "clock out the pixels providing sync". STN mode usually has lots of dithering and level biasing since the panel lacks the smarts |
| 21:00.38 | MothaWork | but yes, a resistor divider (possibly followed by a buffer) should work |
| 21:01.01 | MothaWork | I *think* the inputs on the '725 are high-Z enough to get by without the buffer, but I'm not 100% sure of that |
| 21:01.05 | MothaWork | it's been a while since I used it |
| 21:01.19 | adyer | prpplague: use an R2R arrangement rather than a ladder |
| 21:01.21 | prpplague | yea, thats true, but the hammer was geared more towards using smaller stn displays, i could still use the tft, but it takes up more memory |
| 21:02.01 | prpplague | this is what i was looking at - http://belogic.com/uzebox/ |
| 21:02.03 | MothaWork | prpplague: well, you HAVE to give it 525 interlace video |
| 21:02.12 | MothaWork | or ~212 line progressive |
| 21:02.24 | MothaWork | the 725 doesn't do any scaling or conversion. You have to time everything correctly |
| 21:02.47 | prpplague | yea, i totally forgot about that, doh, thats the reason i used the chrontel part |
| 21:03.01 | MothaWork | all it does is takes RGB video at NTSC timings and do the colorspace conversion and the chroma IQ modulation |
| 21:03.11 | MothaWork | if you need a scaler, then you'll have to find something else, yeah |
| 21:03.19 | MothaWork | Chrontel or whoever it is that owns Brooktree now |
| 21:03.21 | MothaWork | Conexant? |
| 21:03.31 | ds2 | Conexant owns Bt now :( |
| 21:04.08 | prpplague | MothaWork: yea the chrontel part works, just fairly complicated |
| 21:04.10 | adyer | i think conexant is in the process of killing all that stuff |
| 21:04.39 | ds2 | there is a way to make the hammer talk to an AD725? |
| 21:05.23 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:05.38 | ds2 | isn't there front porch, etc stuff that is not available from the hammer LCDC? |
| 21:05.47 | MothaWork | should be in TFT mode, yes |
| 21:05.53 | MothaWork | that's standard for scanning data into a TFT |
| 21:06.10 | MothaWork | TFTs usually want data in the Bt.656 format minus the embedded sync information |
| 21:06.32 | MothaWork | which is pretty much the standard for moving digital video around |
| 21:06.43 | prpplague | ds2: yea, you could do it, but it would take a special framebuffer |
| 21:06.43 | ds2 | Hmmm interesting |
| 21:06.57 | MothaWork | darned simple: pixel clock, parallel data bus wide enough to move every pixel, and then optional hsync/vsync lines |
| 21:07.03 | ds2 | prpplague: ah.. yes, it is starting to sink in now |
| 21:07.13 | MothaWork | you can get rid of the sync lines by embedded sync info, but TFTs don't use that |
| 21:07.28 | MothaWork | there's also sometimes a DE/Blanking signal |
| 21:07.34 | ds2 | but the 725 takes seperate sink in signals, IIRC |
| 21:07.57 | MothaWork | and for 4:2:2, YCbCr, you only need 16 bits for 8 bits per channel because of the downsampling |
| 21:07.58 | ds2 | of course, by this line of reasoning, why not use 3 DACs and just drive a VGA display? ;) |
| 21:08.13 | MothaWork | ds2: that's pretty much what you'd have to do to use a 725 in this context |
| 21:08.20 | MothaWork | you have to create analog RGB then feed that to the 725 |
| 21:08.33 | MothaWork | of course, it's at NTSC/480i timings, not VGA/480p timings |
| 21:08.40 | ds2 | MothaWork: but 4:2:2 weighing in YUV space means what weighing in RGB space? |
| 21:08.51 | MothaWork | you can't downsample RGB, so it's always 4:4:4 |
| 21:08.57 | MothaWork | which means a 24 bit bus for 8 bit/pixel |
| 21:09.00 | MothaWork | er 8bit/channel |
| 21:09.20 | MothaWork | you can try to downsample RGB, but you won't like the results :) |
| 21:09.24 | ds2 | always 5/5/5 with a 16bit bus unless the chip is really good at color |
| 21:09.46 | MothaWork | ds2: there are encoders/DACs out there that will take 12 bits/channel, believe it or not |
| 21:09.57 | ds2 | this is very interesting, a whole new world of possibilities just popped into my head |
| 21:10.04 | MothaWork | usually only in 4:2:2 mode, but some will accept RGB 4:4:4 if you clock the data in DDR style on both edges of the clock |
| 21:10.24 | ds2 | MothaWork: and who makes a display that can repeated reproduce the colors with a NTSC in? |
| 21:10.32 | MothaWork | NTSC in? nobody |
| 21:10.39 | adyer | ntsc = never the same color |
| 21:10.40 | MothaWork | YPbPr component in? they exist |
| 21:11.08 | MothaWork | most modern video encoders can output in NTSC composite, s-video (Y/C), or YPbPr format |
| 21:11.10 | ds2 | but if there is a device that will take YUV straight, why not do the RGB -> YUV in software? |
| 21:11.12 | MothaWork | some also support component RGB |
| 21:11.29 | ds2 | in fact, aren't there some chips that support haradware RGB->YUV in the controller? |
| 21:11.39 | MothaWork | ds2: many devices do, but it takes time, and some devices can't do 4:2:2 output |
| 21:11.45 | MothaWork | and yes, there are |
| 21:11.49 | MothaWork | most TV oriented ones do |
| 21:12.07 | ds2 | MothaWork: 4:2:2? aren't we talking about an analog signal to the display? |
| 21:12.11 | MothaWork | many video encoders can accept either YCbCr or RGB on the digital side |
| 21:12.29 | MothaWork | ds2: no, I'm talking the digital bus to the DAC |
| 21:12.34 | ds2 | oh |
| 21:12.53 | MothaWork | many sources can't output 4:2:2 (things that were designed as TFT LCD controllers are a great example) |
| 21:13.07 | ds2 | Hmmm hammer vga output just came a possibility! |
| 21:13.14 | ds2 | oops, s/hammer/beagle/ |
| 21:13.17 | MothaWork | so even if you convert to YCbCr in software, you're still outputting 4:4:4, so you save no I/O and might as well just let the darned chip convert colorspaces for you |
| 21:13.39 | MothaWork | I've got a design laying around somewhere that has a TFT LCD controller on an ARM9 hooked up to a DVI transmitter |
| 21:13.43 | MothaWork | never built it, but it should work |
| 21:14.15 | ds2 | MothaWork: I am thinking bare bones hardware... outputing to a parallel R2R so 4:4:4 can work |
| 21:14.30 | MothaWork | there you go then |
| 21:14.32 | ds2 | the beagle does exactly that but it is a CortexA8 |
| 21:14.38 | MothaWork | if you just need the analog RGB, then you're fine |
| 21:14.42 | ds2 | problem is that board has no analog output |
| 21:14.52 | MothaWork | if you want NTSC or Y/C, you'll need something more fancy |
| 21:14.59 | MothaWork | mostly to handle the chroma IQ modulation |
| 21:15.19 | ds2 | NTSC is nasty to do in software but plain YUV should be doable |
| 21:15.26 | MothaWork | should be, yes |
| 21:15.41 | MothaWork | just store all your framebuffers in YUV format |
| 21:15.42 | ds2 | esp if I am playing back MPEG's... YUV Output is part of the decoder anyways |
| 21:15.46 | MothaWork | indeed |
| 21:15.56 | MothaWork | in many cases, that may save you a colorspace conversion |
| 21:16.05 | MothaWork | which isn't cheap in software |
| 21:16.17 | ds2 | this is almost as exciting as reading about bit bang NTSC from a PIC |
| 21:16.39 | MothaWork | the reality is that making a simple video controller isn't hard. it's just a bunch of counters, comparators, and a state machine |
| 21:16.41 | MothaWork | after that you just hook it up to something |
| 21:16.52 | MothaWork | they're all similar, so they tend to be able to talk to each other's hardware |
| 21:17.15 | ds2 | *nod* it actually gets harder trying to reuse blocks on a vendor's chip |
| 21:17.18 | MothaWork | banging B&W NTSC off an 8-bit isn't that bad. I think I crammed it onto a 72 cell CPLD once |
| 21:17.28 | MothaWork | now getting the chroma in there is a bit more of a challenge |
| 21:17.42 | ds2 | a basic LCDC is just a series of dividers/counters... I built that in class |
| 21:17.51 | ds2 | some guy actually did color NTSC on a PIC |
| 21:18.10 | MothaWork | it's doable, just not easy |
| 21:18.15 | ds2 | w/o the benefits of STELLA or GTIA chips (2600/Atari 800) |
| 21:31.16 | prpplague | ds2: yea, i have the pdf of that project |
| 21:31.24 | prpplague | ds2: i was able to get b/w images with the hammer |
| 21:31.33 | prpplague | ds2: but the timming was very very tight |
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| 22:15.32 | kergoth | i wonder.. |
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| 23:26.27 | kergoth | thinks about starting from scratch on bitbake/oe, but this time taking it incrementally.. start with just the ability to run build steps and handle packaging and deployment for a single package from its source tree |
| 23:26.53 | CosmicPenguin | good times |
| 23:28.20 | kergoth | thinking thatd be a useful start. make it handle either crosscompilation if the buildsystem is capable, or scratchbox style transparency if not |
| 23:30.19 | adyer | exit |
| 23:30.29 | adyer | lol |
| 23:31.04 | kergoth | no! |
| 23:31.40 | adyer | just trying to get out of telnet/openocd session :-) |
| 23:33.46 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: I like that approach |
| 23:34.02 | CosmicPenguin | I have about a half dozen custom debs that I build for our AMD64 boxes that could benefit from that.. :) |
| 23:37.10 | kergoth | course you'd have to have the dependent headers & libs in the sdk or a rootfs / staging dir laying somewhere, but that's common enough, thats how those crazy people got by before OE |
| 23:37.16 | kergoth | :P |
| 23:37.42 | kergoth | at least if the target's a different arch, this'd be a good excuse to better support native compilation also |
| 23:37.47 | kergoth | since thats another oe weak spot |
| 23:38.59 | ohsix | CosmicPenguin: is there a way to tell apt/dpkg globally not to install documentation/examples/whatever that usually ends up in /usr/share? |
| 23:39.41 | CosmicPenguin | I'm not sure |
| 23:39.54 | CosmicPenguin | I don't think so - apt does what the dpkg tells it to |
| 23:40.19 | kergoth | cp's right, and debian packaging isn't very granular, you generally get the works |
| 23:40.34 | ohsix | i've been curious but dont know where to look, stuck on a 2gb usb stick for a system the last week or two, could use the space |
| 23:41.01 | CosmicPenguin | apt's magic is in the dependency handling |
| 23:41.07 | kergoth | there are a number of embedded linux distros thatd be a better choice than straight debian |
| 23:41.30 | CosmicPenguin | Nothing ever fits to a T - thats why OE wins |
| 23:41.49 | ohsix | i'm actually using ubunto, but theres a load of crap in share even for simple packages |
| 23:42.09 | CosmicPenguin | ubuntu is designed for desktops with many GB of hard drive space |
| 23:42.45 | CosmicPenguin | Thats not a flaw, just a fact |
| 23:44.07 | Crofton | CosmicPenguin, +1 |
| 23:45.37 | ohsix | i dont mean to disparage it, but i figured that stuff might have a toggle that i wasn't seeing |
| 23:46.55 | CosmicPenguin | a .deb itself is really just an archive |
| 23:47.11 | CosmicPenguin | when it gets installed, dpkg chdirs to root and extracts |
| 23:47.17 | CosmicPenguin | repeat N times and you have a system |
| 23:47.52 | CosmicPenguin | image |
| 23:52.04 | g1powermac | well, I'm a proud new owner of a 2003 Honda Civic 2 door coupe :-) |
| 23:52.26 | g1powermac | what do you guys suggest to tech this baby up? :-) |
| 23:52.35 | kergoth | grats |
| 23:53.01 | g1powermac | and pretty much anything goes here in KY, I think you can even tint your windshield |
| 23:54.05 | g1powermac | kergoth, thanks |
| 23:57.07 | adyer | g1powermac: replace the gerbils |
| 23:57.24 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Lots and lots of very bright multi-colored blinking LEDs.. :) |
| 23:57.30 | g1powermac | http://images.cars.com/supersized/DMI/178675/DA6521.jpg |
| 23:57.40 | g1powermac | theres my car :-) |
| 23:58.03 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, thats a given :-) |
| 23:58.40 | RobotGuy | MAKE a different version of the electric car.. |
| 23:59.11 | g1powermac | would so want to do an electric conversion one day |
| 23:59.40 | RobotGuy | Better to make a hybrid. |
