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| 01:31.44 | ds2 | that was quite a talk by an NXP guy |
| 01:39.53 | joe_bleau | I'll say. Very memorable. |
| 01:40.40 | ds2 | you were there? |
| 01:43.28 | joe_bleau | Where? |
| 01:43.38 | ds2 | @#$!@#@#%$#@ |
| 01:43.42 | ds2 | ARM DevCon |
| 01:43.44 | joe_bleau | Then, no. |
| 01:44.01 | joe_bleau | I'm too tight to go to conferences. |
| 01:44.23 | ds2 | they guy starts talking about Embedded systems and how DNS is too heavy to implement on them due to the amount of parsing |
| 01:44.51 | ds2 | then he comes with an alternative to DNS using XML + HTTP... you send a GET to a web server, then parse the XML |
| 01:45.37 | agaffney | ... |
| 01:45.51 | ds2 | agaffney: you agree with him? |
| 01:45.59 | agaffney | no :P |
| 01:46.17 | ds2 | had to check... at best I can say that talk is alarming |
| 01:46.31 | agaffney | that is among the dumbest things I've ever heard |
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| 01:47.13 | joe_bleau | Was he in marketing? |
| 01:47.15 | ds2 | the guy actually wrote a book on this! |
| 01:47.20 | ds2 | let me find the book's website |
| 01:47.22 | agaffney | and I've heard things flyback has said ;) |
| 01:47.27 | agaffney | !!! |
| 01:47.28 | agaffney | wtf? |
| 01:47.33 | agaffney | that *has* to be a joke |
| 01:47.58 | joe_bleau | I dunno, that does sound like something a publisher would love. |
| 01:48.13 | ds2 | this is the book |
| 01:48.17 | ds2 | http://www.embeddedinternet.org/embedded/default.aspx |
| 01:48.57 | ds2 | the thing is no one else in that talk seemed alarmed |
| 01:49.16 | agaffney | maybe they were just waiting for the punchline |
| 01:49.26 | ds2 | heh |
| 01:49.51 | agaffney | I still am |
| 01:50.27 | joe_bleau | The website seems half-done. |
| 01:50.31 | ds2 | there were other subtle things wrong with the talk but it almost makes it down into the noise level.... example is thinking HTTP/1.1 with presistant connection is a good thing on a resource limited device |
| 01:50.39 | agaffney | joe_bleau: I love those floating tabs along the top |
| 01:51.13 | agaffney | ds2: this guy sounds like a real winner |
| 01:51.18 | joe_bleau | I don't get them. But I'm running Opera, with no Java, JS, etc. |
| 01:51.52 | ds2 | agaffney: I assume the talk was approved by both NXP and ARM ahead of time so... I donno |
| 01:51.57 | agaffney | you don't see the Home, Book, Forum, and Contact Us tabs? |
| 01:52.04 | ds2 | maybe that is what some people think embedded is headed |
| 01:52.06 | joe_bleau | Sure. |
| 01:52.30 | agaffney | on FF3, they're floating out past the header on the right |
| 01:53.05 | joe_bleau | Wonder if the included TCP/IP stack is open source. |
| 01:53.10 | ds2 | on mozilla it still looks different from the way IE renders it |
| 01:53.20 | ds2 | I think the TCP/IP stack is available direct from NXP |
| 01:53.32 | ds2 | that is assuming it isn't just a repackaged lwip |
| 01:54.35 | joe_bleau | The book doesn't sound as bad as his talk. |
| 01:54.47 | ds2 | he's says his talk is a chapter of that book |
| 01:55.20 | joe_bleau | I got really mad at an author over included source code one. |
| 01:55.36 | joe_bleau | Book came out, and the source code was open source. Not GPL, more like BSD. |
| 01:55.51 | joe_bleau | Really loose. Use it in your own work, no need to release your source, etc. |
| 01:56.07 | joe_bleau | Then, a few years down the road, he decides to retroactively change the license to GPL. |
| 01:56.29 | ds2 | I don't see how that can fly |
| 01:56.35 | MonMotha | nor do I |
| 01:57.06 | joe_bleau | I argued it out with him. Seems like he finally caved and admitted I could use the published source, |
| 01:57.14 | joe_bleau | but not anything later. No bug fixes, etc. |
| 01:57.28 | joe_bleau | Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. |
| 01:57.28 | ds2 | that is fair |
| 01:57.51 | ds2 | of course, that doesn't prevent you from coming up with your own version of the fixes now that the bugs are known ;) |
| 01:58.00 | joe_bleau | His reasoning? Many big companies weren't comfortable with his original terms. |
| 01:58.10 | joe_bleau | So he firmed it up by going straight GPL. |
| 01:58.51 | ds2 | I wonder if I can convince this guy he can tow a ton of cotton using a geo metro after failing to tow a ton of lead ;) |
| 02:01.45 | MonMotha | gah, where'd my red book end up? |
| 02:02.38 | ds2 | red book? you doing CD audio? |
| 02:03.39 | MonMotha | different red book :) |
| 02:03.55 | ds2 | chairman Mao's? ;) |
| 02:04.01 | MonMotha | 8049/8051 Microcontroller User's Guide / Signetics 1988 |
| 02:04.11 | ds2 | I have that book! |
| 02:04.17 | MonMotha | it's damn handy |
| 02:04.23 | MonMotha | I found a PDF of most of it somewhere, but this is printed :) |
| 02:04.32 | ds2 | indeed; more useful then a lot of the other 8051 docs |
| 02:04.59 | MonMotha | yup |
| 02:05.10 | MonMotha | this is the book I tought myself microcontroller programming from |
| 02:05.45 | ds2 | pretty close.. found it in the school's recycle pile and used it to teach myself 8051 for a class |
| 02:06.25 | MonMotha | I actually bought this along with a romless 80C451 from an old electronics supplier for like $12 |
| 02:06.31 | MonMotha | never used the micro (though I still have it) |
| 02:07.06 | ds2 | I've always assumed there were better docs that people use for the 8051...guess not |
| 02:07.50 | MonMotha | I never found anything better. Obviously, on modern micros, some of the info will be inaccurate due to the faster cores |
| 02:10.04 | ds2 | that's minor... I've looked at the fast Dallas cores and the Cypress ezUSB ones. |
| 02:11.13 | ds2 | hehe "I thought that red dot on your forehead is from a sniper rifle" |
| 02:59.01 | MonMotha | yes, the book is still useful, just can't trust cycle counts, etc. |
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| 07:16.18 | [AD]Turbo | hola |
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| 16:17.04 | CosmicPenguin | I just got the coolest bug report evah |
| 16:17.24 | CosmicPenguin | Two page PDF, full of detail, with scope pictures |
| 16:18.37 | CosmicPenguin | The pdf was even tagged with "rev3' |
| 16:22.31 | agaffney | heh |
| 16:22.39 | agaffney | bug reports with details are always nice ;) |
| 16:23.16 | CosmicPenguin | I was just telling everybody that now karma is going to give me a month of "plzfix driver" |
| 16:23.25 | ds2 | unless it is something dumb like... scope ground was disconnected ;) |
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| 17:17.01 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 17:18.14 | chouimat|work | hi prpplague |
| 17:18.28 | prpplague | chouimat|work: hey bud |
| 17:18.37 | chouimat|work | light |
| 17:19.04 | prpplague | chouimat|work: hehe |
| 17:19.12 | prpplague | solar: see /msg for tracking number |
| 17:29.28 | prpplague | chouimat|work: don't suppose you know any POS companies who use linux? |
| 17:29.36 | chouimat|work | no |
| 17:30.21 | MothaWork | prpplague: I know of plenty of POS companies that use Linux. Now, none of them make point of sale terminals... |
| 17:31.39 | prpplague | thinks MonMotha might have used a different meaning for POS |
| 17:32.06 | chouimat|work | party of six ? |
| 17:32.31 | MothaWork | prpplague: so you see what I did there, I guess? |
| 17:32.39 | MothaWork | :-) |
| 17:33.01 | prpplague | MonMotha: hehe yea |
| 17:33.17 | prpplague | just not sure where alot of the ISV's that use linux hang out |
| 17:33.22 | MothaWork | nor am I |
| 17:33.25 | prpplague | i mostly know devrs not isv's |
| 17:33.32 | MothaWork | I'm currently doing stuff totally unrelated |
| 17:33.36 | CosmicPenguin | That would assume that they hang out |
| 17:33.44 | prpplague | indeed |
| 17:33.45 | MothaWork | though I am having fun playing with power management on a device that has 4 possible power sources |
| 17:34.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i know there are alot of them out there |
| 17:34.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: just want to see if i can find them |
| 17:35.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i don't think alot of them know they can get a opensource based handheld |
| 17:44.43 | wmat | prpplague: this Embedded group on Linked-In seems to be full of recruiters; are you in it? |
| 17:45.59 | prpplague | wmat: yea |
| 17:46.13 | prpplague | wmat: just got an email a few minutes ago from one |
| 17:46.30 | solar | Anybody decent with automated debian installs? |
| 17:46.39 | prpplague | i've never dealt with them before, so i'm totally in the dark about dos/don'ts |
| 17:49.14 | wmat | prpplague: I thought the whole approval process to join that group would mean that it would be recruiter free, but I guess not |
| 17:49.30 | prpplague | wmat: yea i don't guess it is too selective |
| 17:51.33 | prpplague | chouimat|work: you heard of these guys? http://www.oneirsolutions.com |
| 17:52.21 | chouimat|work | no |
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| 18:03.46 | prpplague | chouimat|work: heard of this one? http://www.linuxcanada.com/ |
| 18:04.10 | chouimat|work | no |
| 18:04.22 | wmat | i have |
| 18:04.54 | prpplague | wmat: any info good/bad? |
| 18:06.29 | wmat | prpplague: very little, only that they annoyingly leverage the "Linux" trademark for a commercial product |
| 18:06.45 | wmat | they do claim to feel bad about having to close their source though ;) |
| 18:07.07 | prpplague | ahh |
| 18:07.22 | prpplague | wmat: heard anything about them using handhelds? |
| 18:07.49 | wmat | nope |
| 18:08.36 | wmat | when I was doing more CLUE work (linux.ca), we used to get lots of people going to their site, thinking they were CLUE |
| 18:09.51 | wmat | prpplague: they support Symbol PDT3100 Handheld unit |
| 18:10.11 | wmat | for physical inventory, price checks and label creation |
| 18:10.22 | wmat | so says their FAQ anyway |
| 18:10.41 | prpplague | ahh i didn't see that |
| 18:10.44 | prpplague | looks again |
| 18:12.25 | prpplague | wmat: hmm, i'm still not seeing that |
| 18:12.25 | prpplague | wmat: where did you see it? |
| 18:12.25 | wmat | http://www.linuxcanada.com/release.shtml |
| 18:12.40 | wmat | the 1.4.4 Release Notes |
| 18:13.18 | prpplague | ahh |
| 18:14.05 | wmat | i think you can download old source as well which includes a handheld dir |
| 18:14.44 | prpplague | wmat: know of any competors of linuxcanada.com ? |
| 18:15.29 | chouimat|work | http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/dodgy-digits-behind-the-war-on-piracy.ars |
| 18:16.36 | wmat | prpplague: not off hand, but wouldn't Honeywell be a competitor, through their acquisition of handheld.com? |
| 18:17.17 | prpplague | wmat: i didn't know honeywell did POS/CRM software |
| 18:17.32 | prpplague | wmat: even if they did, i doubt it is linux based |
| 18:18.09 | wmat | prpplague: handheld.com does, which they own now, but it's very proprietary and not Linux based, as far as I can remember |
| 18:18.35 | wmat | they do their dev on Linux though, as I did a sales call there for SG++ last year |
| 18:18.59 | prpplague | wmat: right handheld.com is actuall whats left of welch alyn's handheld divison that was spun off as HandHeld Products, and then later as just HHP |
| 18:19.09 | prpplague | wmat: right i remember now |
| 18:19.20 | prpplague | wmat: i'm looking for linux ISV's mainly |
| 18:19.25 | wmat | yep, that's right |
| 18:19.31 | prpplague | wmat: software people, not hardware |
| 18:19.37 | wmat | ah |
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| 18:24.24 | wmat | prpplague: you looking for inventory systems specifically? |
| 18:24.52 | prpplague | wmat: no, just anyone who is using linux and has a custom application that might fit well with handhelds and kiosks |
| 18:27.52 | prpplague | wmat: i'd be will to post some bounties(paid with hardware) for linux ISV's that would be interested in using an opensource product like our handhelds and kiosks |
| 18:28.14 | wmat | prpplague: you know what I would really love to see, a polished Linus application coupled with a relatively inexpensive wireless handheld scanner that would allow me to inventory my home media via barcodes quickly |
| 18:28.58 | wmat | prpplague: like Delicious Monster, but for Linux and Open Source |
| 18:29.18 | wmat | prpplague: I'd even pay quite a bit for the handheld unit if the software rocked |
| 18:32.31 | wmat | hell, i'd even pay for the software |
| 18:32.36 | prpplague | wmat: yea well, i doubt you'd want to spend $1300 for the M8050 |
| 18:32.58 | wmat | no, that's too much |
| 18:33.39 | prpplague | wmat: this is generally for super high end stuff |
| 18:33.57 | prpplague | wmat: my suggestion would be use a zipitv2 with a serial barcode module |
| 18:34.00 | prpplague | wmat: or the didj |
| 18:34.03 | wmat | but couldn't TCT do a cheap barcode scanner targetted at Linux users? I haven't checked, but I'm sure there's already software that could be built upon similar to delicious monster |
| 18:34.57 | prpplague | wmat: hardware wise, yes, but since TCT is a sister company to AML, they have a company agreement not to see in each others product area |
| 18:35.09 | prpplague | s/see/sell |
| 18:36.40 | wmat | so a $100 barcode scanner would be a direct competitor? |
| 18:40.06 | prpplague | anything barcode would be in violation of the agremetn |
| 18:40.25 | prpplague | wmat: but you can get a $40 usb barcode scanner for your pc |
| 18:41.05 | wmat | but i want wireless and handheld, so I don't have to lug hundreds of books to my office |
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| 18:42.11 | prpplague | wmat: z2 with a serial barcode scanner |
| 18:43.02 | prpplague | wmat: either way, we'd never be able to do a handheld with a scanner for $100 |
| 18:43.17 | prpplague | wmat: the laser enginer is more than $100 by itself |
| 18:44.53 | prpplague | hmm, supposedly SFLC has an annoucement they are suppose to be making this week |
| 18:47.04 | wmat | speaking of announcements, a friend works for Message Labs, who got bought this week by Symantec |
| 18:48.43 | wmat | prpplague: what's the SFLC announcement about? |
| 18:49.07 | prpplague | wmat: i assume it is another settlement |
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| 18:49.26 | prpplague | solar: ping |
| 18:50.06 | solar | prpplague; pong |
| 18:50.45 | prpplague | solar: hey do you have the build environment you are using available to download? i'd like to get it built on our inhouse dev box |
| 18:50.53 | prpplague | solar: or are you not that far along? |
| 18:51.34 | Chocobo | Anyone here familiar with zero-crossing detect circuitry? |
| 18:51.38 | MothaWork | Chocobo: yes |
| 18:51.57 | MothaWork | only in AC line applications, though |
| 18:52.02 | MothaWork | never messed with it on audio |
| 18:52.32 | Chocobo | That is exactly what we want... 120V AC Zero Crossing ---> Microcontroller. |
| 18:52.49 | Chocobo | And we would like some form of isolation. |
| 18:53.19 | MothaWork | my suggestion is to take the AC line and run it through a phototransistor with an appropriately large resistor |
| 18:53.34 | MothaWork | there will be a slight offset, but it should be reasonably constant and you can back it out with software |
| 18:55.06 | solar | prpplague: I have to rebuild cuz my primary devel desktop is still playing the rollover and be dead game with me. |
| 18:55.22 | Chocobo | Like an opto-isolator |
| 18:55.23 | Chocobo | ? |
| 18:55.52 | solar | prpplague: I have all the binary pkgs handy however. So it's real easy to slap together tarballs based on needs |
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| 18:57.57 | wmat | finds Tellico, seems like what I need already exists |
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| 19:00.40 | MothaWork | Chocobo: yes |
| 19:01.20 | MothaWork | just hook the AC line up to the input side (the LED) of the isolator and pick an appropriate resistor to limit the current |
| 19:01.28 | MothaWork | you may need a comparator on the output, then |
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| 19:17.03 | Chocobo | Ok, thanks MonMotha |
| 19:17.07 | Chocobo | errr |
| 19:17.10 | Chocobo | MothaWork, |
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| 19:20.57 | MothaWork | Chocobo: no problem. I presume you're using this as a phase reference for driving triacs or something? |
| 19:21.04 | MothaWork | or do you just need to know frequency? |
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| 19:55.14 | Chocobo | Yeah, it is for a christmas light control board :) |
| 20:05.14 | ds2 | does AML do any 2D code readers? |
| 20:09.16 | MothaWork | Chocobo: yeah, then you may need to put a comparator on the output side in order to get clean edges out of it. There will be a phase offset, but you should be able to either calculate or just measure it and compensate in software |
| 20:09.52 | MothaWork | how are you gating the triacs? |
| 20:09.54 | Chocobo | yeah, I could set the comparator reference to the correct value to compensate for the phase offset. |
| 20:10.08 | Chocobo | Opto-Isolators. |
| 20:10.14 | MothaWork | so phototriacs? |
| 20:10.15 | Chocobo | and a microcontroller |
| 20:10.29 | Chocobo | Yep. |
| 20:10.30 | MothaWork | that's pretty simple, though you can also buy all in one SSRs |
| 20:11.01 | MothaWork | and even if you mess with the comparison threshold a little, you'll still have a small offset since the diode won't become biased enough to turn on at all until a little ways into the cycle |
| 20:11.53 | MothaWork | there's a couple options for that: back out the constant and then be slightly limited in minimum firing angle, or you can trigger based on the previous zero cross to trigger right at 0, but then you need to have very accurate delays, so measure the period, too |
| 20:12.14 | MothaWork | measuring the period is never a bad idea to begin with; makes your device 50/60Hz compatible |
| 20:12.22 | MothaWork | also, line frequency isn't always 60.00Hz |
| 20:12.50 | MothaWork | around here it tends to be a little slow (varying during the day, but always slow), and they speed things up at night momentarily to keep the daily cycle counts reasonably accurate |
| 20:13.08 | MothaWork | I can hear my AC fans run a little faster when they do that :) |
| 20:14.03 | Chocobo | woa! that is cool. |
| 20:14.28 | MothaWork | seems to have done a little but of everything |
| 20:14.33 | MothaWork | *bit |
| 20:14.57 | Chocobo | Well the reason we are really looking for the zero crossing is to do AC PWM... we are going to turn on for fractions of a cycle to dim the lights. |
| 20:15.06 | MothaWork | I'm mostly experienced with digital and some mixed signal, but I've done things ranging from "analog hell" to off line power supplies, too |
| 20:15.20 | MothaWork | Chocobo: yup, the standard AC voltage controller method for lamp dimming |
| 20:15.31 | Chocobo | I hate analog. |
| 20:15.32 | MothaWork | that may irk the newer LED based sets, depending on how those are made |
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| 20:16.10 | MothaWork | I actually build a little device for a prof at my college to do 3-phase SCR/Triac gating for AC voltage controllers and controlled rectifiers |
| 20:16.26 | MothaWork | IIRC, it also had a mode for outputing gate signals for 3 phase DC->AC inverters |
| 20:16.39 | MothaWork | you could adjust all the parameters wit pots |
| 20:19.11 | Chocobo | That's pretty sweet. :) I have been in school a _LONG_ time, but have done very little power stuff. I am much more of a microprocessor guy. This is pretty neat. |
| 20:19.40 | ds2 | power is fun |
| 20:19.50 | ds2 | quick way to get some involuntary exercise }:-) |
| 20:23.38 | MothaWork | I perhaps have more respect for the AC line than it deserves, if that's possible |
| 20:23.44 | MothaWork | I've blown up my fair share of MOSFETs |
| 20:23.50 | MothaWork | some rather spectacularly |
| 20:24.11 | MothaWork | you can pull an awful lot of power off a bridge rectifier hooked directly up to the wall :) |
| 20:24.29 | ds2 | you need a current limited wall outlet ;) |
| 20:24.49 | MothaWork | I've been meaning to buy an "inherently limited" isolation transformer |
| 20:25.09 | MothaWork | but they are EXPENSIVE |
| 20:25.13 | ds2 | is that the one where saturation reduces the current? |
| 20:25.14 | MothaWork | well, in the kVA size, at least |
| 20:25.16 | MothaWork | yeah |
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| 20:25.41 | ds2 | isn't that done with just a small air gap? |
| 20:26.02 | MothaWork | I think they play with the core material, too |
| 20:26.14 | ds2 | oh so a few minutes with a hack saw won't cut it |
| 20:26.23 | MothaWork | not from what I've gathered |
| 20:26.48 | ds2 | it is starting to sound like a metcal tip |
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