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| 02:43.59 | kergoth | hmm |
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| 08:20.22 | [AD]Turbo | hola |
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| 10:58.20 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: G'Morning |
| 10:59.53 | g1powermac | heya RobotGuy |
| 11:01.55 | RobotGuy | I so want to go lay down, but I know I'd fall asleep if I did that. |
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| 13:33.26 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 13:33.45 | prpplague | anyone know a good channel for wince dev? |
| 13:44.43 | *** join/#edev dmead (n=dan@ip226.sensaphone.us) |
| 13:48.36 | prpplague | dmead: interesting looking stuff, sensaphone that is |
| 13:50.45 | dmead | hi |
| 14:00.11 | prpplague | dmead: you work for sensaphone? |
| 14:00.21 | dmead | yes |
| 14:00.28 | prpplague | dmead: you use linux? |
| 14:00.33 | dmead | i do! |
| 14:00.42 | dmead | and i need coffee |
| 14:00.42 | dmead | brb |
| 14:02.46 | dmead | any buildroot devs lurking around? |
| 14:04.01 | prpplague | lots of folks here use buildroot, but due to the always changing nature of buildroot, experience with daily versions can vary |
| 14:05.09 | prpplague | dmead: don't suppose you guys would be interested in getting your stuff working with an industrial handheld running linux? |
| 14:05.43 | dmead | how do you mean? |
| 14:08.07 | prpplague | dmead: instead of sending the messages to a phone, send it to an industrial pda dev |
| 14:08.27 | dmead | ah |
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| 14:08.35 | dmead | well we're working on xml streams |
| 14:08.41 | dmead | so anyone could parse it for whatever they want |
| 14:09.12 | prpplague | dmead: the sensor devices can be used with ethernet i assume or 802.11b/g ? |
| 14:09.58 | dmead | for which device? |
| 14:10.06 | dmead | theres different classes of sensors |
| 14:10.27 | prpplague | dmead: ahh, just briefly looked at the products |
| 14:10.30 | dmead | the ones that use cat5 aren't really cat5 |
| 14:10.41 | dmead | it just uses the different pins to select what type it is |
| 14:11.35 | dmead | but we're working on a sensor that uses ethernet |
| 14:11.47 | dmead | it's kind of an ambiguous design decision |
| 14:11.53 | dmead | but it makes plug and play instantanious |
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| 14:13.41 | dmead | prpplague, i guess you mean the ims sensors? |
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| 14:15.24 | dmead | prpplague, you work for http://www.amltd.com/? |
| 14:15.54 | mnemoc | at least he connects from their mail server :p |
| 14:16.00 | dmead | at least! |
| 14:16.28 | RobotGuy | Yes, he works for AML and does TCT stuff when he can. |
| 14:17.11 | prpplague | dmead: yep, thats where i currently work |
| 14:17.37 | prpplague | dmead: we have a new handheld coming out that might work well with the datacenter stuff - http://www.elinux.org/M8050 |
| 14:19.11 | mnemoc | prpplague: a qwerty would have been great |
| 14:19.14 | prpplague | dmead: that limits.h file gets broken often with the buildroot stuff |
| 14:19.25 | dmead | yea? |
| 14:19.28 | prpplague | mnemoc: that will be on the next rev |
| 14:19.41 | RobotGuy | I think I finally have a project for Hammer where I can use a touch screen to good advantage. Two projects, actually. |
| 14:19.44 | mnemoc | prpplague: any idea of the price range? |
| 14:20.04 | prpplague | mnemoc: the 8050 will be in the $1200 range |
| 14:20.11 | dmead | prpplague, do you know how to fix limits.h |
| 14:20.36 | dmead | also, our stuff exposes connections for snmp email and SMS |
| 14:20.55 | dmead | so you can build controllers around that probably easily |
| 14:21.37 | dmead | i'm kind of pulling my hair out... the correct file doesn't seem to be in my build directory |
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| 14:22.33 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 14:24.00 | prpplague | one sec phone |
| 14:26.04 | dmead | i havea limits.h |
| 14:26.09 | dmead | that sets some variables |
| 14:26.15 | dmead | and then imports limits.h |
| 14:26.18 | dmead | :/ |
| 14:26.24 | dmead | sorry includes |
| 14:26.28 | dmead | i'm in haskell/java mode |
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| 14:27.46 | prpplague | dmead: been awhile since i had to fix that, one sec |
| 14:27.53 | dmead | k |
| 14:30.55 | prpplague | dmead: the limits.h stuff should come directly from the kernel headers, i suspect that the makefile that does that is broken, you should be able to copy over the limits.h files from your kernel build |
| 14:31.19 | dmead | the same host or target kernel? |
| 14:31.49 | dmead | hmm |
| 14:31.51 | dmead | oh |
| 14:32.17 | prpplague | all the limits.h file is a set of defines for max/min values for the target platform |
| 14:33.05 | dmead | oh |
| 14:33.12 | dmead | i didn't select a kernel in menuconfig |
| 14:33.19 | dmead | and it didn't grab one either |
| 14:33.31 | dmead | that could be a problem! |
| 14:33.34 | prpplague | yep |
| 14:33.36 | prpplague | thats it |
| 14:35.37 | dmead | awesome |
| 14:36.31 | dmead | yea, if you wanted to get your handeld to work with a sensaphone device, what would you suppose you'd need? |
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| 14:39.08 | prpplague | dmead: hehe, i was thinking we'd send you a free one |
| 14:39.44 | dmead | what does it do exactly? |
| 14:40.48 | dmead | i'm sure if you'd did we'd give it a going over |
| 14:41.24 | prpplague | dmead: well, its a generic linux installation, so pretty much anything you want, hardware wise the base model has barcode scanner, mag stripe reader, qvga lcd, touchscreen, 802.11b/g , bluetooth |
| 14:41.40 | dmead | ah |
| 14:41.45 | prpplague | dmead: the big kicker is the battery, 5800mAh, which means you can go about 20 hours without recharging |
| 14:42.09 | dmead | neat |
| 14:42.50 | prpplague | dmead: mind sending me an email to danders@amltd.com ? we will be going live with the product in january, and i'll get you on the devrs list |
| 14:43.15 | dmead | sure i guess |
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| 14:50.49 | kergoth | morning |
| 14:51.04 | prpplague | kergoth: greetings |
| 14:51.34 | kergoth | sleeepy |
| 14:56.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9695447848.html |
| 14:56.29 | prpplague | dmead: buildroot running ok now? |
| 14:56.58 | CosmicPenguin | cute |
| 14:59.20 | dmead | not yet |
| 14:59.26 | dmead | adding in a kernel |
| 15:00.21 | prpplague | dmead: okie dokie |
| 15:00.29 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: ack - I don't see a socketed BIOS on that |
| 15:01.53 | CosmicPenguin | "Field programmable" == JTGA |
| 15:01.55 | CosmicPenguin | JTAG even |
| 15:01.56 | CosmicPenguin | sigh |
| 15:03.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'd like to try doing a nice daughter board for an ETX module such as this - http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6722463891.html |
| 15:04.53 | dmead | seems to be working now |
| 15:04.57 | dmead | it's getting the kernel sources |
| 15:05.14 | dmead | prpplague, have you experimented with the fastboot paches yet? |
| 15:05.31 | kergoth | fastboot? |
| 15:05.45 | prpplague | dmead: i mainly use arm devices, so i can pretty much boot my device in under 6 seconds |
| 15:05.53 | CosmicPenguin | fastboot is the new hotness |
| 15:06.13 | dmead | indeed |
| 15:06.13 | dmead | same here |
| 15:06.27 | dmead | but our processors are low power low clock speed |
| 15:06.44 | dmead | every little bit helps on startup |
| 15:06.57 | dmead | i'm more interested in ubifs than i am the aggressive driver loading |
| 15:07.23 | CosmicPenguin | the fastboot stuff helps everybody - there isn't any processor on earth that wouldn't benefit from asynchronous USB initialization |
| 15:07.50 | *** join/#edev boris_OmegA (n=boris@194.51.141.172) |
| 15:09.26 | dmead | indeed |
| 15:12.10 | kergoth | ooh, nice |
| 15:12.14 | prpplague | indeed |
| 15:12.18 | prpplague | i'll have to have a look |
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| 15:14.08 | dmead | have youg guys seent his glorius five seconds? |
| 15:14.09 | dmead | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7NxCM8ryF8 |
| 15:15.04 | prpplague | looks |
| 15:15.58 | prpplague | nice |
| 15:15.59 | CosmicPenguin | Its not so glorious |
| 15:16.10 | CosmicPenguin | first of all, its five seconds from grub, which isn't impressive one bit |
| 15:16.20 | CosmicPenguin | given the 15 seconds it takes EFI to decide to run |
| 15:16.26 | dmead | ah |
| 15:16.41 | CosmicPenguin | The rest of the world can be up to x from power on in 6 seconds |
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| 15:17.05 | dmead | yea it takes my workstation at home 20 seconds from grub to login |
| 15:17.14 | CosmicPenguin | Second of all - the distribution is moblin, which is targeted at mobile devices |
| 15:17.25 | dmead | but thats after the sata host wastes a few seconds autodetecting |
| 15:17.33 | CosmicPenguin | so it is heavily hacked - not that it gives the desktop distributions a pass by any means, but its not nearly as impressive as making say Ubuntu boot in five seconds |
| 15:17.45 | dmead | right |
| 15:18.15 | dmead | i suppose the next step would be to use linuxbios to get the kernel loaded faster |
| 15:18.18 | dmead | or something like that |
| 15:18.35 | kergoth | adds the fastcall tree as a remote on his main kernel tree & fires off a fetch |
| 15:18.47 | CosmicPenguin | The next step would be to use coreboot to initialize the system faster - it can't help make the kernel load any faster |
| 15:19.01 | dmead | coreboot? |
| 15:19.04 | dmead | is that like openrc? |
| 15:19.13 | CosmicPenguin | coreboot is what linuxbios used to called |
| 15:19.15 | dmead | ah |
| 15:40.21 | dmead | ugh |
| 15:40.31 | dmead | i can't seem to find the correct limits.h |
| 15:40.32 | dmead | :/. |
| 15:53.17 | dmead | can anyone who uses builtroot for arm tell me from where they get their limits.h? |
| 15:57.24 | prpplague | dmead: it should pull them from the kernel headers, so you should get them from include/asm-arm/limits.h in the kernel source |
| 15:59.06 | dmead | right |
| 15:59.27 | dmead | i have that one, but apparently uclubc 0.29 expects more symbolds than that has |
| 16:01.29 | prpplague | thats odd |
| 16:01.40 | prpplague | which symbols is it looking for? |
| 16:02.24 | dmead | INT_MAX |
| 16:02.34 | dmead | and i assume more type sizes that i haven't hit yet |
| 16:03.36 | dmead | hmm |
| 16:03.41 | dmead | well |
| 16:03.51 | dmead | i have a limit.h that includes a seemingly useless limits.h |
| 16:04.21 | prpplague | i thought INT_MAX is in kernel.h |
| 16:04.48 | dmead | it's probably all over |
| 16:05.58 | dmead | bbl |
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| 16:33.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: lots of new people in the channel lately |
| 16:34.40 | CosmicPenguin | Because everybody thinks we are badass crackers |
| 16:35.12 | kergoth | hmm, what ever happened to sorphin? haven't seen him in ages |
| 16:35.32 | prpplague | kergoth: he is still around on irc, just doesn't join channels |
| 16:35.33 | CosmicPenguin | he pops in for a few days and then disappears for another age |
| 16:35.42 | kergoth | odd |
| 16:36.00 | prpplague | thats a good word for him |
| 16:36.03 | kergoth | he could be an ass at times, but then, so could i, so i dont have much room to talk :) |
| 16:38.38 | prpplague | i've come to believe that all embedded linux developers have a built-in "be an ass" mode |
| 16:40.45 | prpplague | i just don't get these job postings where they want someone who does both windows ce and linux device drivers |
| 16:41.06 | prpplague | i can't find a single person who admits to being able to do both |
| 16:42.01 | kergoth | hehe |
| 16:44.08 | prpplague | ever company i know that does both wince and linux has a very strict division between the departments |
| 16:44.48 | CosmicPenguin | not true - I could throw my coffee cup right now and hit our CE guy |
| 16:45.00 | CosmicPenguin | there is no division at all - not even a curtain |
| 16:47.23 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 16:47.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: that is definetly a plus |
| 16:47.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the " I could throw my coffee cup right now and hit our CE guy" part |
| 16:47.57 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: was that a job perk they offered you? |
| 16:48.00 | CosmicPenguin | nah - Joy is cool |
| 16:50.46 | kergoth | hmm, amazon wishlist vs giftag? |
| 16:53.22 | CosmicPenguin | giftag seems to web 2.0ish for my tastes |
| 16:53.43 | kergoth | the site is really, really basic actually |
| 16:53.49 | kergoth | the fancy part is the extension for ff |
| 16:54.00 | kergoth | that lets you clip a part of the page to use as the icon/picture for the item on the list |
| 16:54.21 | kergoth | downside is its ff only, and has no separate field for price, you have to just add that int the description |
| 16:58.53 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ha, i didn't know terpstra had been working for AMD |
| 17:01.16 | CosmicPenguin | that was a while ago |
| 17:02.21 | prpplague | 2006-2008 according to his page |
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| 17:02.44 | jerm^_ | I am running 2.6.27 on a custom at91sam9263 platform with a rootfs on an SD card. We have unexpected poweroff events occasionally so I mounted the rootfs as sync. The strange part is that, with /proc/sys/vm/block_dump enabled, I am seeing dirtied inodes wiithout immediate writes (MMC debug is on). pdflush activity confirms that I am still seeing async writes. any ideas? :) |
| 17:03.40 | prpplague | jerm^_: what file system type? |
| 17:03.47 | jerm^_ | ext2 |
| 17:04.32 | prpplague | jerm^_: how nessary is it to actually be able to write to the filesystem? |
| 17:05.41 | prpplague | jerm^_: ext2 isn't robust enough to handle unexpected poweroff events, even when in sync'd |
| 17:06.10 | jerm^_ | so ext3 or JFS? |
| 17:06.51 | jerm^_ | Unfortunately, I have considered ro but I need to be able to write the the filesystem. |
| 17:07.09 | prpplague | jerm^_: how often do you have to write to the fs? |
| 17:07.46 | jerm^_ | this board is being used in a generic processing platform so that detail is unknown. Could be every 30 seconds...or every 30 days... |
| 17:08.25 | jerm^_ | the main goal is to be as robust as possible against unexpected power interruptions |
| 17:08.58 | prpplague | jerm^_: a common practice for designs, based on what you describe, is to have two partitions on the sd card, one being the rootfs which would be RO, the second would be for data |
| 17:09.15 | prpplague | jerm^_: you would also use a ramdisk, which would be for data |
| 17:09.50 | jerm^_ | prpplague: had not considered that at all...this is my first embedded linux excursion |
| 17:10.11 | prpplague | jerm^_: you then have an app that every 30 seconds or so remounts the second partion from RO to RW, copies the data to the second partition, then remounts the second partition as RO |
| 17:10.52 | prpplague | jerm^_: worst case, some of the data might get damages, but the rootfs will be solid |
| 17:11.05 | MothaWork | jerm^_: my suggestion is to run apps and such (/) off a ramdisk (possibly just an initrd) and then mount in a data partition where needed using a journaled filesystem such as ext3, JFS, XFS, etc. and mount that sync |
| 17:11.27 | MothaWork | of course, it still sounds like there may be a bug somewhere in the MMC/SD stack that is preventing synchronous writes |
| 17:11.37 | jerm^_ | prpplague: cool...that could work |
| 17:11.49 | MothaWork | I have a 9263 board here, but I haven't played with the SD/MMC controller on it yet |
| 17:11.57 | jerm^_ | thanks for the info guys....I have to run off to a meeting....I'll be back in a hour...may talk more about this when I get back if you are around |
| 17:12.22 | jerm^_ | MothaWork: I suspect there are some issues in the MMC/SD stack.... |
| 17:15.13 | MothaWork | jerm^_: it would not be unheard of in the AT91 tree |
| 17:16.20 | prpplague | hmm, interesting job posting for reston,va |
| 17:16.39 | prpplague | wonder if they'd do moving assistance, hehe |
| 17:25.41 | wmat | prpplague: there's decent embedded linux jobs here in waterloo |
| 17:26.10 | prpplague | wmat: hehe, i doubt i could convince the boss lady to move there, hehe |
| 17:26.34 | wmat | but it's Canada, everyone wants to live here ;) |
| 17:26.54 | wmat | and it's hot today |
| 17:27.09 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:27.21 | wmat | http://weather.uwaterloo.ca/ |
| 17:27.28 | prpplague | looks |
| 17:28.19 | wmat | last nights snow has already melted :) |
| 17:29.22 | prpplague | iirc when i looked into it, it would cost us about $150CAD per person to get a visa |
| 17:30.41 | CosmicPenguin | Colorado is way better then Canada - our mountains are prettier, our beer is tastier, and our money doesn't have an old lady on it |
| 17:31.24 | wmat | prpplague: our dollar has been dropping considerably of late, so that's like $115 USD |
| 17:31.46 | wmat | prpplague: http://nuvation.com/corporate/careers/wdc/linuxeng_wdc.html |
| 17:32.01 | prpplague | wmat: yea, since my wife is from barbados it is alot easier |
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| 17:32.33 | adyer | CosmicPenguin: no ocean in Colorado - you should take the drive from Vancouver to Whistler BC, pretty darn scenic. |
| 17:33.05 | wmat | CosmicPenguin: I'd argue the beer point as well |
| 17:33.26 | wmat | and at least the old lady is still alive |
| 17:33.27 | adyer | CosmicPenguin: plus 1/2 of Colorado is indistinguishable from Kansas :-) |
| 17:33.40 | CosmicPenguin | so is most of canada |
| 17:34.15 | wmat | heh |
| 17:36.14 | CosmicPenguin | But clearly the beer is more important - so lets debate that |
| 17:37.10 | CosmicPenguin | 5 of the top 50 brewers in the US are based in colorado |
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| 17:38.16 | CosmicPenguin | And 7 of the top 50 "real beer" brewers |
| 17:58.58 | prpplague | very interesting |
| 18:00.06 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: just been informed we have a meeting in 30 minutes with an "outside consultant" for windows ce dev |
| 18:00.31 | kergoth | prpplague: your company ditching linux, or what? |
| 18:01.03 | CosmicPenguin | Thats good |
| 18:01.07 | CosmicPenguin | better them do Ce then you |
| 18:01.20 | prpplague | kergoth: looks like it will be both linux and wince for awhile, but eventually linux will be phased out |
| 18:01.28 | kergoth | ugh :( |
| 18:01.40 | kergoth | is your job safe, or are you going to have to start looking elsewhere? |
| 18:01.41 | prpplague | kergoth: the EEdiot ruined it for everyone |
| 18:01.45 | kergoth | ugh |
| 18:02.03 | prpplague | i've been looking for awhile, just haven't found something that fits yet |
| 18:02.21 | MothaWork | prpplague: yes, because switching to an OS that makes driver dev even more complicated magically fixes hardware problems... |
| 18:02.43 | prpplague | MothaWork: right now its more of a problem with perception |
| 18:03.09 | prpplague | MothaWork: because upper management has changed, the new people don't know how to relate to open source developers |
| 18:04.37 | prpplague | kergoth: because the EEdiot screwed everything up, management thinks that it might be better to outsource the designs for future projects |
| 18:05.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and better yet, the EEdiot had the nerver to ask me to recommend him on linkedin |
| 18:06.01 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
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| 18:13.01 | CosmicPenguin | heh - the cuecat finally got its patent |
| 18:28.51 | CosmicPenguin | okay, does anybody else have "ask me first" set for cookies? |
| 18:29.10 | CosmicPenguin | if so, have you noticed that when a cookie pops up, FF very annoyingly takes you to the tab where the cookie is being set? |
| 18:29.20 | agaffney | I don't use that |
| 18:29.35 | agaffney | but the bahavior makes sense |
| 18:29.42 | agaffney | it does that when popping up an authorization dialog |
| 18:29.57 | agaffney | I assume it's to prevent XSS due to fooling the user |
| 18:30.03 | CosmicPenguin | I guess |
| 18:30.14 | agaffney | I seem to remember there being some big deal made about that about a year ago |
| 18:30.20 | agaffney | specifically with firefox |
| 18:30.31 | CosmicPenguin | I like opening lots of tabs in google news and stuff and reading them later |
| 18:30.40 | CosmicPenguin | so that frustrates me |
| 18:31.15 | agaffney | so don't set firefox to ask you about cookies |
| 18:31.26 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 18:31.27 | agaffney | and if you're worried about tracking cookies, use adblock :P |
| 18:31.28 | CosmicPenguin | point |
| 18:31.37 | CosmicPenguin | I do use adblock |
| 18:31.50 | agaffney | then you've got very little reason to ever deny a cookie |
| 18:31.56 | CosmicPenguin | Not true |
| 18:32.20 | agaffney | elaborate please :P |
| 18:32.31 | CosmicPenguin | Tracking just isn't for ads |
| 18:32.44 | CosmicPenguin | gawker, for example - does silly numbers of cookies |
| 18:32.54 | CosmicPenguin | Clearly for tracking purposes |
| 18:35.13 | agaffney | shrugs |
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| 19:02.36 | MothaWork | I just whitelist cookies |
| 19:02.46 | MothaWork | if you're not on my whitelist, you get no cookies |
| 19:06.04 | CosmicPenguin | Thats what "ask me first" does essentially |
| 19:06.12 | CosmicPenguin | just makes the whitelist on the fly |
| 19:06.41 | MothaWork | my method results in me being bugged less :) |
| 19:06.59 | MothaWork | though it takes longer to make broken sites that require cookies but that I want to use wokr |
| 19:07.02 | MothaWork | *work |
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| 19:36.20 | kergoth | hmm |
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| 19:47.24 | kergoth | anyone know any good resources on open source project management and communities? |
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| 19:48.10 | kergoth | hmm |
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| 20:31.24 | jerm^_ | MothaWork: i found out using my trusty JTAG debugger that access time was being updated on some files and those changes are not flushed to disk immediately. Very interesting... |
| 20:31.45 | jerm^_ | MothaWork: does not explain my random file system corruption issues... |
| 20:33.43 | MothaWork | well, mount it noatime, then |
| 20:34.12 | MothaWork | as for file system corruption, even if it's sync, it is possible for the ext2 filesystem to get into a state that's bad if the system is powered off at the right time |
| 20:34.29 | MothaWork | ext3 and other modern filesystems solve this using journaling. You might still lose data, but at least the filesystem itself will be consistent |
| 20:36.25 | jerm^_ | MothaWork: yep, added the noatime option. I am also switching to ext3 as we speak... |
| 20:36.38 | jerm^_ | MothaWork: thx for the help! |
| 20:45.59 | mnemoc | ext4 got marked as stable (and recommended) in linux 2.6.28 :) |
| 21:54.59 | kergoth | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-we-learned-from-1-million.html |
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| 23:11.37 | JohnnyL | how does one alloc memory for say an envinroment that uses a variety of resources which are taken in and out of memory of various sizes? |
| 23:14.35 | CosmicPenguin | I don't understand the question |
| 23:53.04 | MonMotha | JohnnyL: um, malloc? |