| 00:04.04 | prpplague | ~seen landley |
| 00:04.14 | Guest75797 | landley <n=landley@cpe-70-116-30-223.austin.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #uclibc, 8d 17h 11m 56s ago, saying: 'Hi ncopa.'. |
| 00:04.19 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 00:05.27 | *** topic/#edev by prpplague -> a channel for the discussion of embedded linux on small consumer electronic devices, mostly ARM based |
| 00:07.12 | *** topic/#edev by prpplague -> a channel for the discussion of embedded systems,including hardware, software, linux, wince, and commercial device repurposing - mostly ARM based; |
| 00:19.57 | solar | prpplague: I know the feeling all to well these days. |
| 00:20.34 | solar | this evening. Not sure. I was thinking of dipping out for a beer or two with the locals at an irish pub in the downtown |
| 00:21.15 | solar | not sold myself on that idea yet. It's a bit wet&misty outside |
| 00:21.19 | prpplague | solar: hehe |
| 00:32.29 | *** join/#edev joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@99.175.83.53) |
| 00:37.44 | joe_bleau | Standalone LCD driver or SoC? QVGA, maybe VGA panel. Only need 250-500, so don't want to spend a ton on NRE. |
| 00:38.07 | joe_bleau | Don't need much code space, so a (fairly hefty) microcontroller might do. |
| 00:38.20 | joe_bleau | (As opposed to a microprocessor+flash+sdram.) |
| 00:38.24 | joe_bleau | Thoughts? |
| 00:41.38 | SpeedEvil | Open LCD drivers can be really annoying to find. |
| 00:41.47 | SpeedEvil | <ake very sure you get full docs before buying |
| 00:41.57 | joe_bleau | Yeah, I've heard about Epson, but unsure on docs. |
| 00:42.47 | SpeedEvil | what're you looking for? |
| 00:43.06 | SpeedEvil | paint random pixels, or mp4? |
| 00:43.09 | joe_bleau | AC powered display, couple/three UARTs, maybe ethernet. |
| 00:43.13 | joe_bleau | Text, mainly. |
| 00:43.23 | joe_bleau | No video. |
| 00:43.40 | SpeedEvil | scrolling text on VGA needs quite a bit of horsepower, even if you're doing the FB in hardware |
| 00:43.47 | joe_bleau | No scrolling. |
| 00:44.13 | joe_bleau | I'd like to have enough memory to double buffer, just so the screen updates aren't so obvious. |
| 00:44.29 | joe_bleau | I envision updates of maybe once every 20 seconds or so. Pretty pokey. |
| 00:44.44 | SpeedEvil | I assume you know you need to rewrite the screen at 60Hz? |
| 00:45.02 | joe_bleau | I'm assuming the LCD controller will handle refresh. |
| 00:45.06 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 00:45.10 | joe_bleau | I wasn't planning on bit-banging it. |
| 00:45.41 | joe_bleau | I've got a demo board for the Coldire '5329, but it's overkill. |
| 00:46.00 | joe_bleau | Quantity is so low that we can't really justify an exotic design and multiple spins. |
| 00:46.13 | joe_bleau | I would not be opposed to some sort of module + baseboard. |
| 00:46.27 | joe_bleau | Not sure that we can find something cheap enough. |
| 00:46.51 | SpeedEvil | Umm. |
| 00:46.58 | SpeedEvil | Go to ebuyer.com |
| 00:47.03 | SpeedEvil | look up lcd photoframes |
| 00:47.12 | SpeedEvil | 'nxp photoframe' or similar |
| 00:47.25 | SpeedEvil | one mentions a chipset that I think may do it - it's 19.99 I think |
| 00:47.45 | joe_bleau | No results. |
| 00:48.25 | joe_bleau | 3.5" |
| 00:48.27 | joe_bleau | ? |
| 00:48.30 | SpeedEvil | around that |
| 00:48.45 | joe_bleau | OK, I think I've found it: NXP LPC2103 + Solomon SSD1928 |
| 00:49.35 | SpeedEvil | That's the chip - I think it does hwat you want in QVGA - but I haven't looked for more info |
| 00:50.47 | joe_bleau | Yeah, that looks like a capable controller. Wonder if it's documented and if it can be bought anywhere except China? |
| 00:53.33 | SpeedEvil | Of course the question... :/ |
| 00:53.44 | SpeedEvil | Well - worst case, it's 19.99 in ones. |
| 00:53.53 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 00:53.55 | joe_bleau | I found a pdf with openocd details on hacking the sucker. |
| 00:55.03 | joe_bleau | We couldn't use it as is, but it might be a start of a design. |
| 00:55.20 | ZeZu | anyone have recommendations on a real powerfull dev board? a SOC with a nice video chipset and a ton of floating point power would be ideal, have been looking at omap3 w/ cortex-a9 or nv tegra but i dont keep up to date really |
| 00:55.45 | SpeedEvil | beagle |
| 00:55.51 | ZeZu | got it |
| 00:55.51 | SpeedEvil | #beagle |
| 00:55.53 | ZeZu | not going to cut it |
| 00:56.15 | SpeedEvil | I don't think there are commonly available dev boards of higher power |
| 00:56.25 | ZeZu | it doesn't have to be commonly available |
| 00:56.30 | SpeedEvil | You're basically into embedded desktop/laptop chipset space. |
| 00:56.38 | joe_bleau | compact pci would get you into all the desktop cpus (x86, powerpc, etc.) |
| 00:56.39 | ZeZu | If you can point it out i can prob |
| 00:56.42 | SpeedEvil | you want to build one? |
| 00:57.12 | ds2 | what is missing in the beaagle that you need? |
| 00:57.33 | ZeZu | ds2 raw floating point processing power and memory bandwidth |
| 00:57.35 | SpeedEvil | If you want to build one - how many 8 layer thousand node PCBs have you made? |
| 00:57.45 | ZeZu | not I |
| 00:57.50 | ZeZu | not much the hardware guy |
| 00:58.10 | ds2 | ZeZu: the DSP should help with the FP processing power |
| 00:58.14 | SpeedEvil | This is probably at least a $10-20K effort to get one working |
| 00:58.25 | joe_bleau | There's a big parallel processing project loaded down with hot Xilinx FPGAs. |
| 00:58.34 | SpeedEvil | if you're wanting only a few, buying exissting'd likely be lots cheaper |
| 00:58.49 | ZeZu | hmm |
| 00:59.16 | ZeZu | ds2, i dont know if its sync'd tight enough, i can't wait on the dsp at all, latency would have to be nil just about |
| 00:59.52 | ZeZu | SpeedEvil, well i'm looking for something existing, it just doesn't necessarily have to be commonly available on digikey or anything, we have access to ARM samples etc |
| 00:59.57 | SpeedEvil | fpga dev boards may be the wyat o go |
| 01:00.11 | ZeZu | who i'm contracted through is a pretty major player |
| 01:00.15 | joe_bleau | Here you go: http://bee2.eecs.berkeley.edu/ |
| 01:00.19 | ZeZu | just workign some concepts |
| 01:00.22 | ZeZu | joe_bleau, thanks |
| 01:00.33 | ZeZu | dont know if fpga will work out or not, i haven't wanted to play with them though hehe |
| 01:00.52 | joe_bleau | Remember all those help-wanted ads in the back of the rags looking for FPGA experts for a hedge fund? |
| 01:00.56 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: sure - I'm just saying that if you're making one or two - or even 50 - at this sort of stuff, it's typically going to be vastly cheaper to buy, not build |
| 01:01.01 | joe_bleau | Wonder how it played out for them. |
| 01:01.29 | SpeedEvil | If you can of course. |
| 01:01.31 | ZeZu | of course |
| 01:01.55 | SpeedEvil | canj you describe wht FP you're doing? |
| 01:02.15 | SpeedEvil | how much RAM the algorithm uses, and the complexity? |
| 01:02.32 | joe_bleau | Hey, what about a GPU? Didn't nvidia package one up as a mini-supercomputer? |
| 01:02.35 | ZeZu | emulating the hitachi sh4 in realtime, in the context its used in, its flooded with fp ops |
| 01:02.40 | ZeZu | joe_bleau, tegra ? |
| 01:02.41 | SpeedEvil | and outputs you need |
| 01:03.00 | ds2 | why not emulate it with a FPGA? |
| 01:04.05 | SpeedEvil | Can you not use the FPGA to only emulate the sh4, and log interactions with the outside? |
| 01:04.12 | ZeZu | its a nice idea, but this eventually is to be a consumer device, the prices of FPGA's are normally quite a bit higher aren't they ? |
| 01:04.32 | ZeZu | something i'll look into for sure |
| 01:04.37 | SpeedEvil | Err |
| 01:04.42 | SpeedEvil | why not just use a sh4? |
| 01:05.02 | ZeZu | ;) |
| 01:05.19 | ZeZu | power requirements are pretty high for them IIRC |
| 01:05.31 | joe_bleau | Then you'll hate FPGAs. |
| 01:05.34 | ZeZu | right |
| 01:06.01 | ZeZu | I was really voting for cortex-a9 smp |
| 01:06.10 | SpeedEvil | Power requirements for emulating something will always be an order of magnitude or three over the hardware |
| 01:06.13 | joe_bleau | DSP? |
| 01:06.28 | ZeZu | ? |
| 01:06.46 | SpeedEvil | Well - always may be strong - if it |
| 01:06.51 | SpeedEvil | 's a PDP11 - for example |
| 01:07.00 | ZeZu | SpeedEvil, that doesn't make sense, i mean i could emulate the 486 on ARM easily and it would take a ton less power |
| 01:07.57 | SpeedEvil | Actually, my 486/33 laptop uses about 5W IIRC |
| 01:08.06 | ZeZu | really? |
| 01:08.16 | SpeedEvil | I'd be very surprised if you could get that emulated in a arm at under a watt |
| 01:08.49 | ZeZu | like i said i'm not much on the hardware myself, i know what i look for in it as a software guy, and some of their eventual requirements |
| 01:09.52 | SpeedEvil | Ok - your task then should be to recode it for a modern CPU. |
| 01:09.53 | ZeZu | i know arm low power, so it was a good target, and i already have a beagle, i like the hardware, but i'm fairly sure it wont be able to handle what i want it to do |
| 01:10.18 | SpeedEvil | Not use emulation that' going to suck up two orders of magnitude performance on its own |
| 01:10.19 | ZeZu | yes we will use dynamic recompilation |
| 01:10.42 | ZeZu | but we do not have the option of porting all the titles to another platform |
| 01:10.43 | SpeedEvil | Why not simply static? |
| 01:10.54 | SpeedEvil | oh - this is a games thing? |
| 01:10.56 | ZeZu | we may go that route |
| 01:10.57 | ZeZu | yes |
| 01:11.04 | ZeZu | but static recompilers have their own problems |
| 01:11.13 | ZeZu | dynamic recomilers can actually be much faster |
| 01:11.27 | ZeZu | through branch & constant elimination |
| 01:11.41 | ZeZu | can do things the compilers couldn't even do in the first place |
| 01:13.48 | SpeedEvil | Anyway - if badger can't cut it - why do you think you can get cheaper than using the real cPU? |
| 01:13.59 | SpeedEvil | beagle |
| 01:15.04 | SpeedEvil | hang o0n |
| 01:15.11 | MonMotha | ZeZu: this sounds suspiciously like what Transmeta attempted to do |
| 01:15.17 | MonMotha | it didn't really work |
| 01:15.34 | SpeedEvil | am I misremembering - the ST4 is a 150M2AHz or so 32 bit CPU? |
| 01:15.35 | MonMotha | the idea is great, but I've yet to see a good dynamic recompiler |
| 01:15.51 | MonMotha | heck, nobody seems to be able to make good compilers in the first place |
| 01:16.25 | MonMotha | though at least with x86 you've got lots of big honkin' instructions that tend to be easyish to translate into RISC |
| 01:16.46 | MonMotha | lots of them, but with quite a bit of implied ILP |
| 01:17.30 | MonMotha | (which is how all modern x86 processors are implemented anyway) |
| 01:19.35 | prpplague | ZeZu: your dilema has come up in sooo many applcations |
| 01:20.38 | MonMotha | that said, to address your original question, I think Freescale has a monstrous ARM11 dev board |
| 01:20.47 | MonMotha | part of their i.MX lineup |
| 01:21.40 | MonMotha | they have them in both the traditional "pizza box" format as well as a smaller application oriented version |
| 01:21.43 | ZeZu | sorry |
| 01:21.46 | ZeZu | anyhow |
| 01:21.54 | ZeZu | i dont know much about transmeta |
| 01:21.58 | SpeedEvil | Ah - it's the cPU in the dreamcast |
| 01:21.59 | ZeZu | good dynamic recompilers there are many |
| 01:22.04 | ds2 | the i.MX 31? |
| 01:22.06 | ZeZu | we already have one :) |
| 01:22.11 | MonMotha | I think it was the 31, yes |
| 01:22.12 | ZeZu | just for x86 |
| 01:22.14 | ds2 | PDK? |
| 01:22.17 | MonMotha | sounds right |
| 01:22.18 | ZeZu | and arm with its conditional instructions is nice |
| 01:22.40 | ZeZu | and a lot more registers ;) |
| 01:22.57 | SpeedEvil | Given that the SH4 and SH5 are widely available, it'd seem very silly not to use them |
| 01:22.59 | ZeZu | prpplague, i know and a dilema it is |
| 01:23.02 | SpeedEvil | AIUI |
| 01:23.16 | MonMotha | I remember the chip was a monster. Had like an 8x8 crossbar switch for DMA, two video controllers with embedded OpenGL accel, oh, and I think a kitchen sink |
| 01:23.20 | ZeZu | SpeedEvil, dreamcast emulation will not be the only applicatoin however |
| 01:23.42 | SpeedEvil | As I understand it the SH5 can nearly run SH4 code too |
| 01:23.44 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: sure |
| 01:24.08 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: however, emulating a fast chip that's only 10 years old now, in small volumes, is not going to be cheap |
| 01:24.22 | SpeedEvil | Where small volumes are under 100K |
| 01:24.33 | MonMotha | I also remember that the most "Friendly" package that what I was thinking of was available in was a 500-something ball 0.75mm pitch BGA |
| 01:24.41 | SpeedEvil | Assuming this is for a budget games console of some form |
| 01:25.10 | ZeZu | no |
| 01:25.23 | ZeZu | mobile application, possibly phones idk |
| 01:25.47 | ZeZu | I'm sure there will be a large volume |
| 01:26.43 | SpeedEvil | # Hitachi 128 bit graphics engine with an on-board RISC processor SH4 (operating frequency of 200MHz 360 MIPS/1.4 GFLOPS). The SH4 is optimized for floating point calculations (key to 3D) and is four times faster than the Pentium II. |
| 01:27.08 | ZeZu | you see my problem |
| 01:27.11 | SpeedEvil | IMO, you're not getting a hardware emulator of that on a phone without actual real silicon |
| 01:27.36 | SpeedEvil | FPGA or even fast embedded processor won't cut it |
| 01:27.50 | SpeedEvil | Even discounting price as a factor |
| 01:28.08 | MonMotha | depending on how compatible the ISAs are, you might be able to get non floating point emu at close to original speed out of a really big Cortex or ARM11 @ 500+MHz |
| 01:28.31 | SpeedEvil | But the graphics engine? |
| 01:28.36 | MonMotha | now, writing such an emulator would be tough |
| 01:28.39 | ZeZu | compatible ;) |
| 01:28.41 | MonMotha | and yeah, forget the graphics stuff |
| 01:28.51 | SpeedEvil | And more importantly - do you have absolutely full docs on the graphics engine? |
| 01:29.00 | ZeZu | powervr -> powervr i could dream about compatibility |
| 01:29.18 | ZeZu | i have all the docs, a working emulator that is fully functional (that i wrote) |
| 01:29.23 | MonMotha | well, when I say compatible, I mean how often can you directly translate one instruction into one instruction |
| 01:29.33 | ZeZu | MonMotha, yes i know what you mean :) |
| 01:29.46 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: and what speed does this emulator perform at? |
| 01:29.53 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: on what hardware? |
| 01:30.03 | ZeZu | most of them would translate but of course 1:1 is not very possible, it can be with good reg mapping |
| 01:30.08 | MonMotha | basically, you get one instruction to "translate", and one instruction to "execute" the virtual machine |
| 01:31.00 | ZeZu | 1.6ghz athlon will do it, but thats not "fully" optimized |
| 01:31.00 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: including the graphics stuff? |
| 01:31.00 | ZeZu | yes |
| 01:31.00 | ZeZu | and the arm7 core and dsp on the dc |
| 01:31.00 | MonMotha | so with a 500MIPS CPU, you could potentially get ~200MIPS of emulator performance if the ISAs are "extremely compatible" |
| 01:31.00 | MonMotha | now, that would require a lot of luck and a lot of time with an assembler |
| 01:31.04 | SpeedEvil | ZeZu: a 1.6GHz athlon - even a third of it is _vastly_ more power than in phones. |
| 01:31.11 | MonMotha | and VERY good knowledge of the pipeline on both sides |
| 01:31.19 | ZeZu | indeed |
| 01:31.35 | ZeZu | i'm told you can clock some of the arm11 cores at 1ghz or so |
| 01:31.40 | MonMotha | oh you can |
| 01:31.43 | ZeZu | and the a9-smp would be nice for that |
| 01:31.50 | ZeZu | 2x 1ghz arm cores might have a chance |
| 01:31.58 | MonMotha | I've run an ARM926EJ-S at like 400MHz |
| 01:32.01 | ZeZu | but .. .memory throughput and fp performance are going to hurt |
| 01:32.04 | MonMotha | it was spec'd for 190 |
| 01:32.29 | MonMotha | and there are some 800-1000MHz spec ARM11s out there. They're not usually very power thrifty, though |
| 01:32.35 | MonMotha | made more for STB applications |
| 01:33.04 | solar | ds2: what bootloader are you using with the beagle? |
| 01:34.14 | ZeZu | well as long as it can be scaled down and have the usual power saving features, while running the emulator its going to be kindof expected performance=power |
| 01:35.20 | MonMotha | ARM11 pipeline is also a little more complicated than ARM9. You can clock it faster, but you may not be able to avoid stalling it out |
| 01:37.34 | ZeZu | hmm |
| 01:39.48 | MonMotha | I also doubt the ISAs are *that* compatible |
| 01:39.57 | MonMotha | everything I've heard about SuperH is that it's kinda strange |
| 01:40.53 | SpeedEvil | zo: on your athlon - you're emulating the graphics too - not using a compatible graphics hardware? |
| 01:41.10 | ZeZu | well |
| 01:41.22 | ZeZu | its a 16b instruction sized, so its pretty dense |
| 01:41.34 | ZeZu | fp has some pretty power packed instructions |
| 01:41.49 | ZeZu | fipr = fp inner product |
| 01:42.09 | ZeZu | a few others, the basic alu ops are pretty regular though |
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| 01:42.58 | SpeedEvil | FPU tends to be weak or non-existant on many mobile targetted CPUs |
| 01:46.03 | ZeZu | i know |
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| 02:54.09 | Mirell | is trying to figure out just how exactly to use a Phone at Cisco.. |
| 02:54.14 | Mirell | I thought Audix was complicated.. |
| 03:02.57 | ds2 | the cisco phones are pretty easy, what do you want to do? |
| 03:07.04 | Mirell | Oh, it's really more of the system that Cisco has set up that confuses me. |
| 03:07.17 | Mirell | Not their actual IP phones. |
| 03:09.35 | Mirell | I think I figured it out, I use Unity or whatnot for voicemail, and I need Extension Mobility to login places temporarily...their help documentation needs Google searching badly. |
| 03:09.39 | Mirell | Anywho. |
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| 06:20.39 | ds2 | ff3 is such an abomination |
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| 16:13.58 | solar | this mornings woot.com deal is not bad |
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| 17:04.47 | damunix | evening prpplague |
| 17:04.58 | damunix | any news ? |
| 17:27.28 | prpplague | damunix: no news, been too busy, got 2.6.28 up and running on the hammer, just need to finish the tests |
| 17:45.54 | joe_bleau | prpplague: make menuconfig was the way to go. Thanks. |
| 17:46.11 | prpplague | joe_bleau: good deal |
| 17:47.39 | prpplague | checks the job listings |
| 17:50.42 | mnemoc | prpplague: have you asked rob? |
| 17:51.26 | prpplague | mnemoc: yea, he's sent a few headhunters my way, but most of them just want 3-6 months contract work |
| 17:51.34 | prpplague | mnemoc: i need something a little more long term |
| 17:51.44 | prpplague | mnemoc: landley does alot of short term work |
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| 17:53.26 | mnemoc | I had the hope impactlinux could afford a full-timer |
| 17:53.31 | prpplague | i've been wanting to leave AML for awhile, just haven't found the right thing yet |
| 17:53.37 | prpplague | mnemoc: ahh, no not yet |
| 17:53.45 | prpplague | mnemoc: they are just getting started |
| 17:53.48 | joe_bleau | Well, describe the right thing. |
| 17:54.35 | prpplague | a job where i do software development for kernel level work on new hardware, based in the dallas/ft.worth area |
| 17:54.37 | mnemoc | "long term", open, linux are the obvious attributes |
| 17:55.05 | prpplague | i'm sure something will pop up, just gotta keep my eyes and ears open |
| 17:55.14 | joe_bleau | kernel == linux? |
| 17:55.18 | joe_bleau | hardware == embedded arm? |
| 17:55.29 | prpplague | joe_bleau: yea, prefered |
| 17:55.51 | joe_bleau | Checked with Wind Rive? |
| 17:56.03 | joe_bleau | Wind River, obviously. |
| 17:56.23 | prpplague | joe_bleau: naw, not yet, my first choice for a bigger company like that would MV |
| 17:56.28 | joe_bleau | I spoke to a rep and he said that they had a lot of demand for linux BSP work. |
| 17:56.31 | prpplague | joe_bleau: i have some resources there |
| 17:56.49 | joe_bleau | Not sure about locations. |
| 17:57.06 | prpplague | joe_bleau: yea MV does alot of telecommunite stuff |
| 17:57.12 | joe_bleau | But it sounded like a fun job: here's some new embedded hardware, make it boot. |
| 17:57.19 | prpplague | joe_bleau: exactly |
| 17:57.50 | joe_bleau | Working around the client's hardware bugs would be a bit political, I'm sure. |
| 17:57.51 | prpplague | this is the first time in my adult career that i've been at a loss to define a direction |
| 17:58.01 | prpplague | joe_bleau: don't mind that |
| 17:58.25 | prpplague | joe_bleau: i just don't like working on it, fixing it, and then on the next rev of the hardware they change everything |
| 17:59.40 | joe_bleau | But isn't that life in the embedded world? |
| 18:00.20 | joe_bleau | (BTW, I removed the GRUB boot messages. With a hex editor on the boot partition!) |
| 18:04.39 | prpplague | joe_bleau: naw, there is a world of embedded that doesn't work 6 month cycles |
| 18:04.47 | prpplague | joe_bleau: i've been at AML for almost 5 years |
| 18:05.06 | prpplague | (granted that is about 1 year too long) |
| 18:08.14 | mnemoc | has been 3 years of the same freaking software project : |
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| 19:36.59 | joe_bleau | I've been developing for some of the same hardware 8 years. |
| 20:18.18 | Mirell | Hmm.. |
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| 21:45.20 | ja2 | Anyone around? |
| 21:46.10 | ja2 | Got a couple of ARM dev questions. What equipment to get, what MCU to start with... jtag device and so on. |
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| 21:46.29 | roxfan | what's your goal? |
| 21:46.58 | ja2 | To learn. |
| 21:47.23 | ja2 | I know asm and C from other platforms, AVR and retro computers. |
| 21:47.58 | ja2 | I'd like to learn the ARM architecture. |
| 21:48.21 | ja2 | I lack skill in electronics. |
| 21:48.28 | ja2 | But I fancy giving it a try. |
| 21:48.28 | roxfan | well, if you want just purely architecture, you can start even with QEMU |
| 21:48.43 | ja2 | emus are boring. |
| 21:48.46 | roxfan | it can emulate a bunch of boards |
| 21:50.21 | ja2 | Is softgun for Linux a good emu? (That one I have, but not configured, so I have not run it yet) |
| 21:50.46 | roxfan | no idea, sorry |
| 22:03.53 | ja2 | What debugging hardware is necessary/good? Do you know of usbprog? |
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