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| 00:16.45 | ds2 | solar: that's the X server that used to be Xomap, right? |
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| 00:25.07 | CosmicPenguin | its not a server, its adriver |
| 00:25.17 | CosmicPenguin | mostly a wrapper around /dev/fb0 |
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| 01:24.36 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: pong |
| 01:37.11 | joe_bleau | atmel 926x? |
| 01:37.35 | MonMotha | what about them? |
| 01:37.41 | joe_bleau | Weren't you telling me that the 9263 is buggy and hard to route? |
| 01:38.00 | joe_bleau | Same situation on the 9261, or is it easier to live with? |
| 01:38.39 | MonMotha | all the 926x have some errata which you need to be aware of. Almost all of it has acceptable workarounds, but you do want to be aware of them up front. |
| 01:39.07 | MonMotha | the 9263 is a little hard to route, yes. It's a 0.8mm 18x18 BGA with no cutouts and a kinda annoying pinout |
| 01:39.12 | joe_bleau | OK. Is the '61 package easier to deal with? |
| 01:39.36 | MonMotha | it's still a 0.8mm pitch, but it's a smallar array, and it has a cutout |
| 01:39.46 | MonMotha | dunno if the pinout is any more "nice" |
| 01:39.58 | joe_bleau | (Boss man not happy with the 'intelligent LCD module' options I've found so far, so...) |
| 01:40.06 | MonMotha | due to the cutout, you MAY be able to get by without dropping to 3/3 trace/space |
| 01:40.20 | MonMotha | depends on how many of the I/O you need to bring out |
| 01:40.30 | MonMotha | er 4/4 |
| 01:40.53 | MonMotha | you need 4/4 to do the normal BGA fanout (through via grid with a trace between the vias) on that chip, not 3/3 |
| 01:41.03 | MonMotha | still usually something you get charged extra for |
| 01:41.17 | joe_bleau | What's a min system look like: sdram, flash, xtal, regulator or two? |
| 01:41.50 | joe_bleau | Trying to get a feel if we're looking at $20 in Si, or $50, or $100. |
| 01:43.08 | MonMotha | sdram, some form of flash (check to see if you can boot from NAND or not on the 9261 - there are errata regarding that on some chips), two xtals (one watch xtal + main osc), vcore reuglator (assuming you've already got 3.3V and 3.3V I/O) |
| 01:43.26 | MonMotha | if you can't boot from NAND but don't want to use NOR, you'll also need a small dataflash chip |
| 01:43.44 | MonMotha | likely going to end up in the $20-30 range, depending on volume |
| 01:43.47 | joe_bleau | NOR would be an option--I don't need much code space. |
| 01:43.56 | joe_bleau | Volume is probably 250 to start. |
| 01:44.03 | joe_bleau | IOW, tiny. |
| 01:44.12 | MonMotha | that simplifies things some then in terms of BOM since it means you don't have to worry about the boot ROM working (which is where a lot of the errata was) |
| 01:44.24 | joe_bleau | Right, I remember you mentioning that. |
| 01:44.48 | joe_bleau | Actually, the dataflash wouldn't be too bad...aren't they less <$5? |
| 01:44.52 | MonMotha | yes |
| 01:45.12 | MonMotha | like $2-3 for a medium size one (big enough for a full function bootloader like u-boot) |
| 01:45.29 | joe_bleau | Sounds like a min system is close to the same as the old Bluestreak / NXP chips then. |
| 01:45.39 | MonMotha | the parts with fully functional boot ROMs will also let you boot from SD if that's desireable |
| 01:45.50 | ds2 | is there a general consensus with using a recruiter for contracts? |
| 01:45.52 | joe_bleau | Those are available in non-BGA, but arm7tdmi. |
| 01:46.00 | MonMotha | gotcha |
| 01:46.12 | MonMotha | there is the 9260, which is in QFP, but I don't think it has an LCD controller |
| 01:46.24 | joe_bleau | Ahh, didn't see that one. I'll verify. |
| 01:46.36 | joe_bleau | I need so little I/O--UARTs mainly. |
| 01:46.58 | MonMotha | there's also the SAM9XE series which have onboard flash/more RAM, but I don't tihnk they have LCD controllers, either |
| 01:47.15 | MonMotha | still going for QVGA @ 16colors or better? |
| 01:48.02 | joe_bleau | Looks like it. There's some nice looking 16:9 formats out there, 800x480 maybe? |
| 01:48.21 | MonMotha | you might be able to put the framebuffer in the onboard SRAM (perhaps even at 8bpp) if you stick to QVGA. There would still be some space left over for variables |
| 01:48.24 | MonMotha | that would eliminate the SDRAM |
| 01:49.19 | joe_bleau | 9261 has 160k? Is the contiguous ram? |
| 01:49.36 | MonMotha | I think it's in two sections |
| 01:49.41 | MonMotha | but one is probably at least 80k |
| 01:50.14 | MonMotha | hum, looks contiguous, actually |
| 01:50.17 | joe_bleau | Sometimes they like to add cache in to that number... |
| 01:50.48 | MonMotha | yes, but you can pick the splits |
| 01:51.50 | MonMotha | get yourself 32k of ITCM and 32k of DTCM (or whatever is a good split), and you still have 96k left. ~75k for a QVGA 8bpp framebuffer (+ some for a palette), and you still have some room for the app |
| 01:52.26 | joe_bleau | Hmm. $12-15 cpu, $5? sdram (if needed), $5 flash, $3 dataflash (if needed), $2 xtals, $3 regulators. $35 in chips, maybe? |
| 01:53.04 | MonMotha | sounds reasonable |
| 01:53.18 | joe_bleau | Digikey: $9.86/100. |
| 01:53.20 | MonMotha | if you use NOR flash, you don't need dataflash |
| 01:53.30 | joe_bleau | Right, and I might live without sdram too! |
| 01:53.35 | MonMotha | indeed |
| 01:53.42 | MonMotha | I had forgotten it had so much onboard RAM |
| 01:53.48 | joe_bleau | Hey, this might just fly. Gotta deal with layout, which is a hassle. |
| 01:54.05 | joe_bleau | Any idea if the LCD controller can double pixels, so that I can run QVGA resolution on a VGA panel? |
| 01:54.11 | MonMotha | I think you could do this sucker on standard dsign rules, though |
| 01:54.18 | MonMotha | it's 4 outer rows and 4 inner rows |
| 01:54.21 | joe_bleau | (Asking a lot...I can read the datasheet myself.) |
| 01:54.31 | MonMotha | I don't remember what the LCD controller can do, sory |
| 01:54.42 | MonMotha | er 4 outers, then a 3x3 inner |
| 01:55.04 | MonMotha | the 3x3 inner is just ground |
| 01:55.05 | joe_bleau | OK. Oh, I'll need to generate bias and contrast voltages, too. That's a few bucks. (Never designed in a TFT, so I'm weak here.) |
| 01:55.22 | MonMotha | the TFT should do bias and contrast for you on the device |
| 01:55.40 | MonMotha | TFTs are usually just "apply digital signal here, power here, control backlight (on/off) here" |
| 01:56.06 | joe_bleau | I looked at a panel today that was asking for gamma voltages. |
| 01:56.13 | MonMotha | some do |
| 01:56.15 | joe_bleau | Hey, 3 UARTs. Great. |
| 01:56.23 | MonMotha | oh, the chip is loaded with peripherals |
| 01:56.43 | joe_bleau | RS-485 support. Sure, we'll see about that. |
| 01:56.48 | MonMotha | actually, it works |
| 01:56.52 | MonMotha | believe it or not |
| 01:57.00 | joe_bleau | I'm predisposed to the 'kitchen sink' cpus, as you mentioned. |
| 01:57.06 | joe_bleau | Interrupt on tx complete? |
| 01:57.13 | MonMotha | yup |
| 01:57.29 | MonMotha | it also DMAs |
| 01:57.39 | joe_bleau | Sure. 9 bit mode? ;-) |
| 01:58.33 | joe_bleau | This may be the first of a family. If we step up to the 9263 in later revs, we get ethernet too. |
| 01:59.09 | MonMotha | actually, yes |
| 01:59.17 | MonMotha | it does do 9-bit mode |
| 01:59.25 | MonMotha | I think it even has hardware address match or something like that |
| 01:59.30 | joe_bleau | Wow. That's pretty obscure. |
| 02:00.21 | MonMotha | hum, it may just flag all address frames or something; I don't remember |
| 02:00.26 | joe_bleau | Got a good source for LCDs? ;-) |
| 02:00.40 | MonMotha | we ran Linux on the thing, so it was kinda a matter of "everything works once the kernel is running" |
| 02:00.46 | MonMotha | not really |
| 02:01.55 | joe_bleau | When you run into things like "Truly Semiconductor", you just don't know... |
| 02:02.25 | MonMotha | the onboard ethernet MAC is one thing that made me go to the 9263 (that and the 2nd external bus to get more memory BW when the LCD framebuffer lives in external RAM), but the 9263 is enough more of a pain that I'd just go with the 9261 + External MAC/PHY (SMSC and Davicom have some combined options) |
| 02:02.48 | MonMotha | I didn't realize that the difficulty I'd have with the 9263 until I couldn't justify starting over with a 9261 |
| 02:03.08 | joe_bleau | Which is why I wanted to run this by you first. Learn from your mistake, so to speak. |
| 02:03.19 | joe_bleau | Luckily, I don't need ethernet on this one. Yet. |
| 02:04.24 | MonMotha | the 9263 seems like a very powerful part, but their packaging makes it difficult to work with |
| 02:04.37 | MonMotha | 324 land BGA with no cutouts at 0.8mm pitch |
| 02:04.51 | MonMotha | bare minimum seems to be 4/4, 8mil finished hole, 8 layers |
| 02:05.17 | MonMotha | the 9261 looks to be doable on 5/5, 10mil hole ("standard" rules at most board houses) and 4-6 layers |
| 02:05.21 | joe_bleau | I'd like to stick with 4 layers. |
| 02:05.39 | MonMotha | 4 looks doable, though you won't get a real power plane |
| 02:06.09 | MonMotha | so watch your power routing carefully in the BGA escape area. Use lots of bypass caps as close as you can get (bottom of the PCB would be great) |
| 02:06.23 | MonMotha | outside the BGA, you should be fine on 4 layers |
| 02:07.13 | MonMotha | I really only needed 6 on my 9263 design for the majority of the board, but getting the BGA fanned out required 8 (and I didn't even fan the whole thing out) |
| 02:07.35 | MonMotha | 7 may have worked, but layers tend to come in pairs |
| 02:09.23 | joe_bleau | Thanks, this might just pan out. |
| 02:09.26 | joe_bleau | Appreciate the advice. |
| 02:09.49 | MonMotha | need somebody to do the engineering? :) |
| 02:10.16 | joe_bleau | Not sure. |
| 02:10.24 | MonMotha | well, if you do, please let me know |
| 02:10.26 | ds2 | heheh |
| 02:10.33 | joe_bleau | We've got a layout guy, but I don't know if he's gonna have time or not. |
| 02:10.41 | ds2 | MonMotha: did your situation resolve itself after xmas? |
| 02:10.51 | MonMotha | I can certainly arrange to do the hardware (schematic design + layout), and I can also get you help with software |
| 02:10.55 | MonMotha | ds2: no |
| 02:10.59 | MonMotha | I'm still without a job |
| 02:11.06 | ds2 | MonMotha: oh :( |
| 02:11.23 | MonMotha | I've got maybe 1 lead, but it's only a contract position and it's nowhere nearby |
| 02:11.36 | MonMotha | nobody is hiring hardware right now |
| 02:12.00 | ds2 | It doesn't seem that bleek |
| 02:12.11 | ds2 | but then I donno the midwest at the moment |
| 02:12.34 | MonMotha | I've found software openings, but no hardware |
| 02:12.39 | ds2 | MonMotha: we should setup a consultant list for #edev ;) |
| 02:12.44 | ds2 | you don't want to do sw? |
| 02:12.51 | MonMotha | I'm not really a SW person |
| 02:12.55 | ds2 | ah |
| 02:13.03 | MonMotha | I do some firmware/drivers now and then, but I do mostly hardware |
| 02:13.23 | ds2 | i have learned to adapt to sw even though I prefer hw |
| 02:13.52 | MonMotha | really, I do more software than I'd like |
| 02:14.12 | MonMotha | but it seems that the software side of the project, no matter how complicated the hardware, always takes 10-15x the man-hours |
| 02:14.22 | joe_bleau | If you'd like to email my a guesstimate, I'll show it around. I can't commit to anything--not my end of the business. |
| 02:14.29 | ds2 | haha... |
| 02:14.54 | roxfan | ds2: there is http://www.elinux.org/Experts |
| 02:15.05 | ds2 | roxfan: let me check that out |
| 02:15.21 | roxfan | though i guess it's more about sw and mostly linux at that |
| 02:15.52 | ds2 | cool... |
| 02:16.03 | ds2 | roxfan: is there any unwritten rules about putting an entry on that page? |
| 02:16.33 | roxfan | dunno, but there is some text on the page |
| 02:16.49 | ds2 | there is written rules then there are unwritten "customs" |
| 02:16.50 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: well, I don't have the proper CAD software, so I'd have to run it through my former employer (who would then become my current employer) |
| 02:17.06 | MonMotha | but I think you could swing a decent deal with them |
| 02:17.20 | joe_bleau | And this is my problem how? |
| 02:17.43 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: means I can't really send you an estimate myself |
| 02:18.17 | joe_bleau | OK. Still, feel free to email me and I'll keep you updated as it come together. |
| 02:18.29 | MonMotha | what's your email? |
| 02:18.37 | ds2 | MonMotha: You still got some time before you have to move into a cardboard box? |
| 02:18.39 | MonMotha | I can attempt to work out a number if it'll help |
| 02:18.46 | MonMotha | ds2: yeah, a few months |
| 02:18.50 | joe_bleau | Sure, it would. |
| 02:19.21 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: ok. I'll get in touch with people and work out some numbers. What's your email address? |
| 02:19.24 | joe_bleau | Figure dataflash + small sdram. |
| 02:19.32 | joe_bleau | You should have it from the paypal a while back. |
| 02:19.46 | joe_bleau | If not, I'll PM you in a sec. |
| 02:21.07 | MonMotha | when did we paypal each other? |
| 02:21.27 | joe_bleau | LOL. Maybe I'm confused. nevermind. |
| 02:22.20 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: do you need production services? |
| 02:22.35 | MonMotha | or can you guys handle that (i.e. you just buy gerbers and schematic) |
| 02:22.48 | joe_bleau | We can handle it. Existing CMs want our work. |
| 02:22.52 | MonMotha | ok |
| 02:23.50 | MonMotha | NRE estimate + rough BOM good, or do you want more in-depth unit cost research? |
| 02:24.13 | joe_bleau | Yeah, rough is great at this point. Really rough. Don't spend much time on it. |
| 02:24.25 | MonMotha | gotcha |
| 02:25.57 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: ok, I should get back to you within a day or two with some sort of estimate |
| 02:26.50 | MonMotha | if their pricing isn't to your liking, I may be able to work out something where I do it directly, but I don't have good CAD software for a layout of this caliber |
| 02:27.15 | ds2 | MonMotha: what CAD do you use normally? |
| 02:27.26 | joe_bleau | Sounds good. Don't know when we'll know more on this project. |
| 02:27.30 | MonMotha | I prefer Altium Designer, but work owned the license (since it's pretty expensive) |
| 02:27.42 | MonMotha | I have an old copy of OrCAD laying around, though |
| 02:28.09 | MonMotha | there's also of course Eagle, and I'm told that my board house's layout software doesn't suck |
| 02:28.55 | joe_bleau | Worst case, we might cough up a bit to have someone look over the schematics if we do layout in house. |
| 02:29.11 | MonMotha | I can certainly provide review. I can look over your layout, too. |
| 02:29.24 | ds2 | MonMotha: do you think it is worthwhile ponying up for a full Eagle license? |
| 02:29.54 | joe_bleau | Know of any good 9261 demo boards? |
| 02:29.57 | MonMotha | my layouts tend to work pretty well, so I guess I do something right :) They're usually works of art, too. I spend the extra hour mitering stuff, minimizing loop areas, etc. |
| 02:30.04 | MonMotha | ds2: I don't know. I don't have one. |
| 02:30.18 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: the Atmel one is well built, but not chea |
| 02:30.19 | MonMotha | p |
| 02:30.32 | MonMotha | I could probably get you one of our 9263 boards at a decent price |
| 02:30.40 | MonMotha | it's similar |
| 02:30.52 | joe_bleau | $100? $200? $500? $1000? (semi-log, you see.) |
| 02:31.28 | ds2 | heheh |
| 02:32.12 | MonMotha | I'd guess between $200 and $500, but closer to $200. Might be able to swing a loaner deal or chaper price if you go with them for your NRE. (9261 EV kit from Stmel is ~$750) |
| 02:32.36 | joe_bleau | Wonder if I saw a 9263 board on ebay. |
| 02:32.58 | MonMotha | does sparkfun have a 9261 board? |
| 02:33.49 | MonMotha | $409.95 for the sparkfun EV board |
| 02:34.11 | joe_bleau | 110322439380 |
| 02:35.41 | MonMotha | couldwork |
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| 03:17.59 | joe_bleau | Anyone have a STM32 Primer 2? Looks like fun at a decent price. |
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| 08:42.34 | methril | yo |
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| 10:32.18 | florian | good morning |
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| 10:43.29 | damunix | morning florian |
| 10:43.58 | florian | ~lart SM501 |
| 10:43.58 | purl | resizes SM501's terminal to 40x24 |
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| 14:30.45 | prpplague | run everyone run, the samrobb zombie has arrived! |
| 14:31.02 | prpplague | samrobb: yes i tend to run a joke into the ground |
| 14:31.18 | samrobb | :-) |
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| 14:48.34 | chouimat|work | morning |
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| 15:10.04 | damunix | Hi GPSFan |
| 15:10.27 | damunix | I see that you made the ENC28J web page on the wiki of the Hammer project |
| 15:11.20 | GPSFan | damunix: yes, I did a long time ago. |
| 15:12.14 | kergoth | morning |
| 15:12.26 | damunix | I'm trying to add it to my .29 kernel. I made it as a module, but when I modprobe the module, there is nothing in dmesg. the device is in /sys/module list, but do I need to "start" it or things like that ? |
| 15:13.15 | GPSFan | damunix: I did very little with the kernel driver, prpplague did most (if not all) of that. |
| 15:13.33 | damunix | GPSFan: ok |
| 15:13.37 | damunix | prpplague: :) ? |
| 15:13.42 | prpplague | damunix: the enc28j60 driver is now part of the main kernel tree |
| 15:13.47 | prpplague | damunix: pretty easy to setup |
| 15:14.04 | damunix | yeah I'm trying to use it |
| 15:14.35 | damunix | but when I modprobe it, should it wake up and make the eth device ? |
| 15:16.28 | prpplague | damunix: only if you've defined the device in the you mach file |
| 15:17.03 | prpplague | damunix: you have to configure it was a spi device and identify which irq's and gpios you are using as well as configure them to be ready to use |
| 15:23.25 | damunix | here is the mac config : http://pastebin.ca/1329054 |
| 15:46.36 | damunix | prpplague: is it good ? |
| 15:46.52 | prpplague | damunix: sorry i'm in a meeting |
| 15:46.55 | prpplague | damunix: meeting day |
| 15:47.03 | damunix | prpplague: ok sorry |
| 15:47.15 | prpplague | damunix: np, i'll look when this one is over |
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| 17:18.03 | prpplague | lordy lordy |
| 17:18.15 | prpplague | took everything i had mentally not to quit my job today |
| 17:18.46 | kergoth | ( |
| 17:18.48 | kergoth | :( |
| 17:18.59 | kergoth | just got to suck it up and take it to keep the paycheck eh? |
| 17:19.09 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:21.05 | kergoth | :( |
| 17:24.45 | prpplague | kergoth: if it was just me, i probably would have quit, but i have to think of my family |
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| 19:37.14 | florian | re |
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| 21:07.42 | keesj | great we now have working flyswatter support in urjtag |
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| 21:17.47 | Mirell | Hmm.. |
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| 21:30.22 | mnemoc | Mirell: do you prefer urjtag? |
| 21:40.46 | keesj | it doens't have embedded ice support(last time a checked) so not very usable for me. |
| 21:50.43 | Mirell | mnemoc: I haven't used JTAGs, actually. |
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| 21:54.16 | mnemoc | =) |
| 21:54.34 | mnemoc | keesj: openocd is the way then? |
| 22:11.36 | Mirell | Dear God, genext2fs is horribly ineffecient.. |
| 22:27.59 | CosmicPenguin | genext2fs is just valuable enough to ignore those sorts of things |
| 22:28.10 | CosmicPenguin | lala - I have a .ext2 image, I can't hear you |
| 22:30.03 | Mirell | CosmicPenguin: Sort of. Trying to make a 2GB ext2 image takes five to ten minutes, even when on tmpfs on a 32GB system with dual-quad core Xeons...so...yah. Ineffcient. |
| 22:32.16 | CosmicPenguin | oh geeze 2GB? |
| 22:32.20 | CosmicPenguin | yeah - good luck with that |
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| 22:57.01 | mnemoc | does it work to use an sparse file instead of dd if=/dev/zero as start point? |
| 23:21.00 | Redhatter | Mirell: By the sounds of things... it does it by dd-ing an image, formatting it, then copying in the files. It'd be better off taking a mkisofs/mksquashfs approach. |
| 23:21.57 | Mirell | Redhatter: Yah, but for what I'd want, I'd need to do a UnionFS type mount...just trying to avoid having to do root-level operations, but may not be able to... |
| 23:31.05 | Mirell | So, ponderings.. |
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| 23:35.27 | Redhatter | should have a look at genext2fs... see what it actually does... then see if there's a better way. |
| 23:49.15 | CosmicPenguin | iirc - genext2fs congealed one day and just sort of remained that way |
| 23:49.22 | CosmicPenguin | andersee might have had something to do with it |
| 23:50.25 | Mirell | landley's been wanting to rewrite it for a while, just hasn't had time, but this may make him shift the priority queue. |
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