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| 03:11.55 | Mirell | Hmm... |
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| 07:05.40 | mib_7gy1ma31 | hi good day to all of you.. |
| 07:06.05 | mib_7gy1ma31 | i have a question do anyone of you know about Test Driven Development? |
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| 08:41.33 | methril | yo |
| 08:42.33 | MonMotha | hello |
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| 10:20.29 | flameman | hi |
| 10:22.10 | methril | hio flameman |
| 10:22.18 | methril | i see your last post this morning |
| 10:22.28 | methril | and your e-Wiki page |
| 10:28.00 | flameman | just a proof, no time now to complete it ... anyway it's a start |
| 10:33.51 | methril | it's better if you put the photo (it's the name, but not the photo) :) |
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| 10:56.31 | flameman | i have to fix my photo cell phone |
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| 18:06.32 | mnemoc | does anyone know if prpplague is fine? |
| 18:14.23 | Crofton|work | hmm |
| 18:14.28 | Crofton|work | he was ok last week |
| 18:14.39 | Crofton|work | it has been a holiday weekend in the us |
| 18:14.42 | Crofton|work | well for some people |
| 18:15.00 | Crofton|work | sometimes people take a few days off and do not tell us :) |
| 18:15.09 | mnemoc | :) |
| 18:15.31 | Crofton|work | I did that once and some friends of mine got worried |
| 18:16.35 | mnemoc | that tends to happen in irc, when you get used to see someone daily and he suddenly disappers, the rest become worried |
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| 18:37.02 | wmat | he did mentioning taking Friday off |
| 18:38.24 | kergoth | thinks about treke (greg gilbert), an openembedded guy, who died :( |
| 18:40.02 | wmat | kergoth: I remember hearing about that; very, very sad |
| 18:42.26 | wmat | there's been a few others lately as well, such as Mark Hoekstra (geektechnique guy) and Theimo Seufer (Debian dev) |
| 18:43.49 | agaffney | what happened to these guys? |
| 18:45.33 | kergoth | wmat: :( |
| 18:50.15 | wmat | agaffney: Thiemo was in a car accident; Greg died from complications due to diabetes (I think); and Mark died of a heart attack while bicycling. |
| 18:56.10 | wmat | ~purl seen prpplague |
| 18:56.12 | purl | prpplague <n=prpplagu@ppp-70-244-171-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #edev, 5d 15h 57m 4s ago, saying: 'you guys will have to forgive me if i'm a talkative about job hunting, as i am trying to be optimistic about the whole deal'. |
| 18:57.53 | wmat | emails prpplague |
| 19:00.59 | mnemoc | missed that last message |
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| 19:58.10 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague is fine |
| 20:01.34 | Crofton|work | is he drinking beer with you? |
| 20:03.00 | solar | sounds fun. But he is probably just busy loving life at AML. |
| 20:03.14 | CosmicPenguin | I'm pretty sure thats not it |
| 20:10.11 | MonMotha | all I have to say is "fuck this shit" |
| 20:10.18 | kergoth | mmk |
| 20:10.23 | MonMotha | I'm about to take a job flipping burgers |
| 20:10.30 | kergoth | :( |
| 20:10.35 | MonMotha | good to know 4 years of school hell qualifies one to do that |
| 20:10.50 | ds2 | :( |
| 20:10.54 | MonMotha | I could have done that without racking up a huge student loan debt and burning my brains out for 4 years |
| 20:11.25 | MonMotha | and the stupid state's unemployment website lets you do things that shouldn't even be possible, so my account is effectively "wedged" and I cannot be paid |
| 20:12.05 | ds2 | MonMotha: anyluck with stuff outside of Chicago (west suburbs)? |
| 20:12.22 | MonMotha | ds2: it's too far away to be of much use |
| 20:12.27 | MonMotha | I'd have to move |
| 20:12.34 | MonMotha | which isn't an option given the real estate market |
| 20:12.36 | ds2 | even for temp stuff? |
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| 20:12.57 | MonMotha | it would involve renting another place then, which means I need to pay for two residences on a temp job pay |
| 20:13.15 | MonMotha | because that's a good 2.5 hour drive |
| 20:13.23 | ds2 | ah |
| 20:13.34 | MonMotha | I'm on the northeast side of Indiana |
| 20:13.57 | ds2 | 2.5hr isn't bad... people do that as commutes out here (SAC to Silly valley) |
| 20:14.08 | MonMotha | I don't know how |
| 20:14.10 | ds2 | so you are closer to Ohio |
| 20:14.16 | MonMotha | yes, much closer |
| 20:14.27 | MonMotha | I can be in the state of Ohio in about 15-20 minutes |
| 20:14.35 | ds2 | anything in University town (Ann Arbor, MI)? |
| 20:14.37 | MonMotha | now, I'm in nowhereland, OH, but it is Ohio |
| 20:14.40 | CosmicPenguin | that doesn't sound like something to brag about.. ;) |
| 20:14.53 | ds2 | OH/IN is a nice place |
| 20:14.53 | MonMotha | that's also like 2.5 hours |
| 20:14.59 | MonMotha | yeah, neat place to retire |
| 20:15.04 | MonMotha | not such a great place to work |
| 20:15.15 | MonMotha | unemployment rate in many cities around here has topped 15% |
| 20:15.24 | ds2 | what about pure software stuff? |
| 20:15.26 | MonMotha | unless you're in Indianapolis, it's still a rust belt state |
| 20:15.33 | MonMotha | nobody will hire me for pure software |
| 20:15.37 | ds2 | not a machinist? |
| 20:15.37 | MonMotha | I'm not buzzword compliant enough |
| 20:15.51 | MonMotha | nobody would hire me as a machinist |
| 20:15.58 | MonMotha | I'm somewhat capable, but I have no real experience |
| 20:16.08 | MonMotha | and that's all that matters right now |
| 20:16.16 | ds2 | oh :( |
| 20:16.17 | MonMotha | people are paying 10 year vets in the industry entry level salaries |
| 20:16.51 | ds2 | I'd think CNC knowledge (if you have that) would be an edge over the vets |
| 20:16.55 | MonMotha | every job posting I see is the classic "5-10 years experience in EXACTLY what we want, or we won't hire you" |
| 20:17.01 | MonMotha | I do not have any operating CNC knowledge |
| 20:17.24 | kergoth | i always send resumes to those companies anyway. the likelihood that they'll find an -exact- fit is pretty low.. |
| 20:17.25 | MonMotha | I'm very, very good with embedded systems. Both hardware and software. |
| 20:17.28 | kergoth | course that may be different nowadays |
| 20:17.31 | ds2 | ah |
| 20:17.49 | MonMotha | kergoth: well, they're not finding exact fits, but they don't care. They're not looking to hire for any other reason. |
| 20:18.10 | MonMotha | and in many cases, those are postings to fulfill the "can't find suitable help" requirements of H1-B |
| 20:18.34 | MonMotha | I can't currently even find any real IT type work. |
| 20:18.51 | ds2 | I would like to see an immediate termination of all H1-B's put into effect |
| 20:18.57 | MonMotha | Everybody's hiring for Windows only, and I don't have the worthless piece of paper (MCSE), nor do I really know how to admin giant Windows networks anyway. |
| 20:19.30 | ds2 | nor do you want to |
| 20:19.33 | MonMotha | indeed |
| 20:19.38 | ds2 | bbl |
| 20:20.05 | MonMotha | to give you a feel for how bad things are, I was aggressively pursuing a contract opportunity that would have required relocation (unpaid) and represented about a 30% real wage cut. |
| 20:20.16 | MonMotha | and that then fell through |
| 20:20.24 | MonMotha | the position was closed |
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| 20:24.53 | kergoth | sheesh, i'd better make sure i make myself invaluable at work |
| 20:24.54 | kergoth | heh |
| 20:25.29 | MonMotha | I was in valuable |
| 20:25.35 | kergoth | :( |
| 20:25.39 | MonMotha | however, when the company lays off EVERYBODY, not much you can do |
| 20:25.42 | kergoth | ahh |
| 20:25.43 | kergoth | indeed |
| 20:26.19 | MonMotha | pretty much everybody at that company was invaluable |
| 20:26.20 | Mirell | Then your new goal is make the company...not invaluable? |
| 20:26.47 | MonMotha | my new goal seems to be to find a company that has money |
| 20:27.40 | Mirell | Ah, yes. |
| 20:27.58 | solar | then you have to research based on private funding. Getting in good with the local city council can help to know who has money in a given town |
| 20:28.31 | MonMotha | eh, it's all a big circle jerk |
| 20:29.14 | solar | tbh. I'm supprised most of edev does not combine forces and offer one hell of a new embedded company |
| 20:30.09 | Crofton|work | at FOSDEM there was discussion on an open source stirke |
| 20:30.34 | solar | what is an OSS strike exactly? |
| 20:30.37 | Crofton|work | basically, we get some VC's to pay us to stop working and wait until people get desperate and pay us :) |
| 20:31.23 | Crofton|work | well, I heard this from some java guys while we were drinking |
| 20:31.48 | solar | java guys going on strike. i like the sound of it. hope they stay on it |
| 20:31.54 | Mirell | Hee |
| 20:32.27 | solar | cuz why on earth does every .edu teach java when ppl don't care about all that much.. (blame sun?) |
| 20:34.06 | MonMotha | because people DO care about it |
| 20:34.17 | MonMotha | I can't tell you how many job postings I've seen asking for 5+ years of Java/J2EE |
| 20:34.39 | CosmicPenguin | All the android apps are java |
| 20:34.46 | MonMotha | I haven't seen one posting for C++, if that's what you're advocating. |
| 20:34.58 | MonMotha | "Enterprisey" software these days is mostly Java/J2EE or C#/.NET |
| 20:35.19 | MonMotha | sometimes some Ruby/Rails stuff for web apps |
| 20:38.07 | MonMotha | and also, far too many places only accept resumes in Word format |
| 20:38.26 | MonMotha | I hate passing my resume out in an easily editable format. Makes it way to easy for things to get changed. |
| 20:39.07 | mgsnr | MonMotha: they won't take a PDF? |
| 20:39.20 | MonMotha | mgsnr: in many cases, no |
| 20:39.33 | mgsnr | hmm |
| 20:39.42 | mgsnr | open source developers depending on MS :) |
| 20:39.46 | MonMotha | lots of online recruiting systems accept ONLY .doc (and not OOXML, not ODF) |
| 20:39.49 | MonMotha | oh, this isn't opensource |
| 20:39.52 | mgsnr | oh, ok |
| 20:40.11 | MonMotha | I think everybody in here overestimates the prevalence of OSS |
| 20:40.18 | MonMotha | The "real world" is 99% Microsoft |
| 20:40.28 | mnemoc | 80 |
| 20:40.31 | MonMotha | no, it's higher |
| 20:40.33 | MonMotha | sadly |
| 20:40.37 | MonMotha | at least in the USA |
| 20:40.43 | mgsnr | it's all i use these days for embedded systems. has been for the last 3 years. |
| 20:40.52 | mnemoc | what is real world? home desktops? |
| 20:40.53 | mgsnr | we used INTEGRITY from GHS, but I didn't care for it |
| 20:40.54 | Mirell | MonMotha: Yep, Headhunters love to take out your contact info in the resume, and put theirs in. Love Live the Doc. |
| 20:41.08 | Mirell | Er, Long. |
| 20:41.09 | MonMotha | oh, the embedded DEVICE might run OSS, but the entire company will still be based around MS |
| 20:41.22 | MonMotha | Mirell: one reason I don't use headhunters |
| 20:41.38 | Mirell | Yah |
| 20:41.59 | MonMotha | modifying a resume without approval of the originator should be illegal (and likely is, if you can claim copyright on a resume) |
| 20:42.07 | mgsnr | agreed |
| 20:42.26 | mnemoc | add the proper creative commons footer ;-) |
| 20:43.13 | *** join/#edev robtow1 (n=rtow@63.81.120.158) |
| 20:43.19 | CosmicPenguin | all rights reserved, bitches! |
| 20:47.59 | mnemoc | http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/ should work for a resume |
| 21:02.27 | robtow1 | Greetings. New member, here. |
| 21:06.42 | mnemoc | greetings new member |
| 21:08.00 | archae0pteryx | There are members?' |
| 21:08.16 | mnemoc | :) |
| 21:08.45 | mnemoc | archae0pteryx: did you forget to pay your edev membership? |
| 21:08.54 | g1powermac_PB | members? |
| 21:10.13 | archae0pteryx | Yes, but I also neglect to pay my svlug, penlug, and accu memberships too :) |
| 21:12.47 | archae0pteryx | anyways, yes, welcome robtow1 from a mostly lurker |
| 21:12.54 | robtow1 | :-p |
| 21:13.13 | robtow1 | Haven't been in this channel before today. |
| 21:14.28 | robtow1 | kergoth suggested I come over, from #oe |
| 21:17.47 | robtow1 | I've been doing some work with Open Embedded; mostly beagleboard so far, but now branching out to x86. |
| 21:30.17 | MonMotha | dammit...I just noticed a typo in a cover letter I sent |
| 21:30.22 | MonMotha | oh well, blew that potential opening |
| 21:31.04 | MonMotha | since that's definitely cause to say "no" these days |
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| 21:44.09 | MonMotha | joe_bleau: around? |
| 21:53.38 | ds2 | MonMotha: you looked at remote options? |
| 21:54.24 | MonMotha | ds2: nobody seems interested |
| 21:54.31 | MonMotha | everybody seems to be demanding on-site |
| 21:56.32 | ds2 | MonMotha: are you equipped to do any of the layout stuff by yourself? |
| 21:57.09 | MonMotha | ds2: anything that can be done with OrCAD or a free layout app, yes |
| 21:57.18 | MonMotha | I have OrCAD (or last I checked, it worked) |
| 21:57.32 | MonMotha | but OrCAD is pretty ancient at this point. It's nothing compared to designer |
| 21:57.52 | ds2 | 'k |
| 21:58.02 | MonMotha | I'd considered buying a copy of Designer for myself in case something like this happened, but it seemed silly given that work had their copy, and it's "really f'ing expensive" |
| 21:58.18 | ds2 | how far behind is stuff like gEDA? |
| 21:58.26 | ds2 | the free stuff basically |
| 21:58.31 | MonMotha | in terms of layout, last I checked *EXTREMELY* |
| 21:58.38 | MonMotha | the schematic editor was at least usable |
| 21:59.05 | MonMotha | like like PCB design is still done with "pcb" |
| 21:59.11 | MonMotha | which is a giant abomination of an application |
| 21:59.15 | ds2 | oh |
| 21:59.29 | ds2 | so full Eagle is really the only "inexpensive" path then? |
| 22:00.59 | MonMotha | I've been meaning to try out some of the PCB fabricator specific solutions |
| 22:01.05 | MonMotha | some of them will give you gerbers after you make one order |
| 22:04.17 | MonMotha | I can't imagine trying to use "pcb" for multi-layer designs |
| 22:04.28 | MonMotha | it claims support of up to 8, but the DRC doesn't appear to handle much |
| 22:04.44 | MonMotha | it also doesn't support blind/buried vias, via under pad, or any of that stuff |
| 22:06.48 | MonMotha | then again, some people actually find PADS layout to be usable |
| 22:06.52 | MonMotha | I found it an unusable mess |
| 22:10.27 | MonMotha | I'm told that people who use Designer either love it or can't stand it. I guess I'm one of the former people. |
| 22:11.08 | MonMotha | it's very different from most layout packages. I'd argue that it's more "modern" (which it is - it's a complete re-write of Protel from around 2001-2003 era; most other layout packages have code dating back to the 80s in them) |
| 22:13.24 | ds2 | I really don't like the PCBexpress program... no way to extra a useful file |
| 22:13.43 | ds2 | Protel has been rewritten? did not know that |
| 22:13.50 | MonMotha | the 4PCB program gives you standard RS-274X once you place an order for a part number |
| 22:14.04 | MonMotha | and yes, Altium Designer is what become of Protel (and P-CAD) |
| 22:14.22 | ds2 | I toyed with Protel before, I just assumed it was a DOS port that got improved |
| 22:14.43 | MonMotha | no, Designer is pretty much brand new |
| 22:14.50 | *** part/#edev Omegamoon (n=egoe@demolitionman.xs4all.nl) |
| 22:15.00 | ds2 | unfortunately that doesn't work for me, I want something that would let me mill a PCB, test it. and if it is good, place an order |
| 22:15.19 | MonMotha | the interface is pretty good. A little quirky at times (and I hope you have a fast PC), but it has good interactive features |
| 22:15.29 | ds2 | what irked me with Protel (School had a license for it) was it crashes left and right |
| 22:15.29 | MonMotha | and they keep improving it by leaps and bounds |
| 22:15.54 | MonMotha | Designer doesn't crash too often, and it usually manages to recover enough that you can safely restart without losing work |
| 22:16.26 | MonMotha | it certainly crashes less than OrCAD does |
| 22:17.23 | MonMotha | their autorouter doesn't impress me, but then I've never been impressed by an autorouter |
| 22:17.35 | MonMotha | the interactive routing is so good that I didn't care a whole lot |
| 22:17.38 | ds2 | I haven't seen a working autorouter |
| 22:17.54 | MonMotha | I could grab a whole bus and route it how I wanted pretty quickly |
| 22:18.12 | MonMotha | the layout query language was neat |
| 22:18.26 | ds2 | does it break up the bus into wires and send them all over the board so you get the high bit arriving 1/2 a clk later then the low bit? ;) |
| 22:18.29 | MonMotha | you could match stuff based on pretty much any property, and then you could set rules based on those matches |
| 22:18.40 | MonMotha | the autorouter does, yes |
| 22:18.45 | MonMotha | the interactive one doesn't |
| 22:18.53 | MonMotha | it also has interactive trace length matching |
| 22:19.02 | MonMotha | and impedance driven width rules |
| 22:19.09 | MonMotha | makes SSTL routing a piece of cake |
| 22:19.11 | ds2 | is Designer the one that claims to also do 3D renders of the parts so you can visualize the stuffed profile? |
| 22:19.15 | MonMotha | yes |
| 22:19.16 | MonMotha | and it works |
| 22:19.36 | MonMotha | you can even dump the stuffed board into a model of the enclosure, and it will flag clearance problems |
| 22:19.57 | MonMotha | now, that's a LOT of model management, but if you take the time, it's darned impressive |
| 22:20.03 | ds2 | can it generate a STEP/STL/IGES/etc file with that geometry? |
| 22:20.11 | MonMotha | also makes for ooh la la showings for clients |
| 22:20.18 | MonMotha | it'll to STEP only right now. I think IGES is in the works |
| 22:20.34 | ds2 | Nice, that could do some neat case designs |
| 22:20.41 | MonMotha | the old stuff (which they clearly bought from somebody else) did both IGES and STEP, but it was a lot more limited |
| 22:20.47 | MonMotha | yes |
| 22:20.58 | MonMotha | I got some use out of the STEP export when doing the back-and-forth with the enclosure guys |
| 22:21.00 | MonMotha | it was a lifesaver |
| 22:21.16 | MonMotha | and that was using the old 3D support. The new stuff is better. |
| 22:21.50 | MonMotha | it doesn't seem to cost any more than the other common ECAD packages (OrCAD, PADS, Allegro, etc.), but it's a lot more feature-rich |
| 22:21.53 | MonMotha | just not as popular |
| 22:22.40 | ds2 | Eagle seems to be the only reasonably priced one |
| 22:22.50 | MonMotha | yes, and there's a reason |
| 22:23.04 | MonMotha | it's downright primitive compared to the "commercial grade" stuff |
| 22:23.13 | MonMotha | Designer also has FPGA integration |
| 22:23.32 | MonMotha | it can back-annotate PCB level pin swaps all the way to FPGA constraint files (so I'm told; I never used that functionality) |
| 22:24.03 | chouimat|work | doesn't want to see the code |
| 22:24.16 | MonMotha | oh, I'm sure it's a mess :) |
| 22:24.20 | MonMotha | I don't care as long as it works |
| 22:24.22 | ds2 | FPGAs don't seem to be in cards |
| 22:25.21 | chouimat|work | stupid database rebuild |
| 22:25.28 | MonMotha | they also claim to have a "C to FPGA" compiler. I don't think I'd trust that. |
| 22:25.37 | MonMotha | let's let the software guys make hardware! |
| 22:25.46 | chouimat|work | hehe ... |
| 22:25.59 | MonMotha | nothing inherently wrong with that, but use the right tool |
| 22:26.03 | MonMotha | That's what Verilog is for |
| 22:26.05 | ds2 | the xilinx tool/demo session seems to be pretty neat...drag and drop hardware design |
| 22:26.06 | CosmicPenguin | lets face it - sofware guys are making hardware these days |
| 22:26.25 | MonMotha | ds2: ISE? |
| 22:26.35 | ds2 | MonMotha: that sounds about right |
| 22:26.41 | MonMotha | most "hardcore" FPGA devs never touch the schematic interface |
| 22:27.08 | MonMotha | though Designer can push schematic sheets onto an FPGA for you if you want to do that (or you can use the schematic editor built in to your FPGA software) |
| 22:27.21 | ds2 | i want analog capable FPGAs |
| 22:27.26 | MonMotha | there are some |
| 22:27.35 | MonMotha | they tend to be much more limited |
| 22:46.52 | archae0pteryx | MonMotha: sometimes we hand edited the LUTs or the I/O but not often |
| 22:47.33 | MonMotha | archae0pteryx: oh, you mean in the "RTL view"? |
| 22:47.39 | archae0pteryx | No |
| 22:47.48 | archae0pteryx | in xilinx, I forget which tool it was |
| 22:47.57 | MonMotha | PACE? |
| 22:48.01 | MonMotha | that's their floorplan editor |
| 22:48.04 | archae0pteryx | no |
| 22:48.11 | MonMotha | hum, I'm drawing a blank then |
| 22:48.14 | archae0pteryx | I used PACE but not for that |
| 22:48.18 | archae0pteryx | huh let me look |
| 22:48.25 | MonMotha | It's been a while since I used ISE |
| 22:49.05 | MonMotha | there's the UCF files that control I/O to pin placement, timing constraints, etc. |
| 22:50.05 | MonMotha | there's a couple frontends to that (one of which is PACE) |
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| 22:53.00 | archae0pteryx | Hmm, I can't figure what the tool was |
| 22:53.26 | archae0pteryx | you used it to manually place routes |
| 22:53.38 | archae0pteryx | I don't think that's PACE |
| 22:54.17 | archae0pteryx | err, s/place routes/route/ |
| 22:54.49 | archae0pteryx | Anyways, something completely unrelated to my current job |
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