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| 07:48.46 | methril|work | yo |
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| 12:17.26 | wmat | armin76: http://elinux.org/Flyswatter might help |
| 12:47.46 | keesj | armin76: sure , do you have any specific question? |
| 12:48.20 | armin76 | keesj: nope, not now, it isn't for me anyway :) thanks though |
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| 18:28.37 | ds2 | GRRRRRRR maxim parts |
| 18:31.05 | MonMotha | ds2: sourcing issues? |
| 18:31.20 | ds2 | MonMotha: yes, I can't even be sure I can get parts for proto |
| 18:31.33 | ds2 | Digikey don't stock them, Maxim doesn't seem to say if they really have a part or not |
| 18:33.38 | ds2 | Guess a I2C GPIO expander that runs at 1.8V and has leads is not a common component :( |
| 18:34.36 | MonMotha | ds2: call up Semtech |
| 18:35.01 | MonMotha | they have multi-voltage (and you can run both domains at the same if you want) I/O expanders in SO and TSSOP |
| 18:35.07 | MonMotha | and of course DFN/QFN |
| 18:35.30 | MonMotha | TI also crosses a bunch of that NXP stuff and often enhances the specs to include wider voltage range |
| 18:35.53 | ds2 | Digikey doesn't seem to show anything for TI |
| 18:36.04 | ds2 | I just need to throw together a proto in a few weeks |
| 18:37.25 | MonMotha | well, if Digikey doesn't stock the parts, then chances are Maxim doesn't have any inventory, either |
| 18:37.29 | MonMotha | so samples will take 2-4 weeks |
| 18:37.42 | MonMotha | and god help you if you want production quantity exceeding a couple thousand |
| 18:37.49 | ds2 | yep, exactly my concern |
| 18:38.03 | ds2 | except neither mouser or digikey stock the Semtech part either |
| 18:40.40 | MonMotha | I've never bought from Semtech, so I can't comment on their production capability |
| 18:40.46 | MonMotha | they seem bigger than Maxim/Dallas, though |
| 18:41.00 | MonMotha | check Arrow and Avnet |
| 18:41.10 | MonMotha | they will sell that sort of stuff in small quantity usually |
| 18:41.18 | MonMotha | mostly I think just because DigiKey/Mouser don't hav eit |
| 18:42.27 | ds2 | heh... I hit the jackpot... Arrow - "Call for Quote", Avnet - Nothing found. |
| 18:46.04 | MonMotha | does arrow list stock? |
| 18:46.11 | ds2 | Nope. |
| 18:46.16 | MonMotha | their stock numbers are usually accurate, but they don't always publish pricing |
| 18:46.21 | MonMotha | ah, then they don't have it :) |
| 18:46.43 | ds2 | yep, last time I saw "call" and no stock, they wanted me to buy an entire case |
| 18:51.46 | adyer | ds2: looks like xilinx has an appnote for doing that with a coolrunner-ii |
| 18:52.05 | ds2 | adyer: that'd be fine if I had the time and room :( |
| 18:53.47 | MonMotha | yeah, using a PLD for that would represent quite a lot more development time |
| 18:53.59 | MonMotha | but it would work :) |
| 18:54.12 | ds2 | not to mention it'd kill battery life... did I mention this has to run off a battery? :D |
| 18:54.25 | ds2 | and one with an anemic charger on top of that |
| 18:54.34 | MonMotha | coolrunner-ii is actually pretty low power, especially for a Xilinx part |
| 18:55.16 | MonMotha | do you happen to know a Giesting rep? |
| 18:55.26 | MonMotha | Giesting reps Semtech. They should be able to get you samples. |
| 18:55.46 | ds2 | nope; my hardware mfg contacts are rather rusty :( |
| 18:56.02 | MonMotha | yeah, that makes things tough |
| 18:56.42 | ds2 | Indeed, hence the reason why I am looking at the common suspects - TI, Maxim, Digikey, Mouser |
| 18:56.58 | MonMotha | NXP doesn't have anything? |
| 18:57.06 | MonMotha | They would be "the I2C source", after all |
| 18:57.40 | ds2 | didn't check them directly, just looked at what Digikey lists and for some reason 1.8V + SMT eliminated them |
| 18:57.57 | MonMotha | digi-key's parametrics have been known to be incomplete and/or wrong |
| 18:58.03 | ds2 | Oh? HMmm |
| 18:58.21 | MonMotha | they don't normally get them wrong, but they'll often be missing a spec |
| 18:58.27 | adyer | ds2 looks like microchip has some MCP23008 and others |
| 18:58.38 | MonMotha | so they may not have the voltage spec on any of NXP's stuff, so setting a voltage spec eliminates them |
| 18:58.48 | ds2 | DOH |
| 18:58.55 | MonMotha | or sometimes they'll just put in some random number that's correct but not the limiting case |
| 18:59.13 | MonMotha | so they'll say "3.3V operating voltage", which is allowable, but the part is actually good from 1.2-5 or something like that |
| 18:59.25 | ds2 | I know what killed it, the NXP doesn't list any 1.8V capable parts |
| 18:59.30 | adyer | http://www.microchipdirect.com/ProductDetails.aspx?Category=MCP23008 |
| 18:59.33 | ds2 | I multiselected for anything with 1.8V range |
| 19:01.34 | ds2 | adyer: I like it..thanks. |
| 19:01.55 | adyer | ds2; heh, I learned something too :-) |
| 19:01.58 | roxfan | try also www.findchips.com |
| 19:02.18 | ds2 | now to find out what's the catch with this microchip part ;) |
| 19:02.22 | MonMotha | and everybody's favorite octopart :) |
| 19:03.38 | ds2 | wh00p it has a Linux driver too! |
| 19:04.19 | ds2 | screams at Maxim... wtf with the 0.6350mm pitch |
| 19:04.29 | MonMotha | they have to be special |
| 19:04.37 | MonMotha | gotta make you create custom footprints, after all |
| 19:06.14 | ds2 | Found the catch... "Available Apr 21" |
| 19:06.51 | MonMotha | that sounds like standard factory lead |
| 19:06.58 | MonMotha | so they're probably not stocking it |
| 19:07.17 | ds2 | nevermind that... wrong package |
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| 20:03.18 | florian | re |
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| 21:06.38 | maekke | anybody experienced with flyswatter and orion arm here? (it's a qnap nas device) |
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| 21:44.32 | ds2 | quiet monday |
| 21:44.55 | ds2 | Ob complaint - Ceramic caps are $$$ :( |
| 21:45.16 | MonMotha | ds2: good ones are, yes |
| 21:45.24 | MonMotha | and yes, it's quiet. Most of the actives are jobless, it seems. |
| 21:47.13 | ds2 | prpplague got the axe? |
| 21:47.45 | MonMotha | ds2: last I heard he was just "expecting" |
| 21:47.52 | ds2 | oh |
| 21:48.27 | chouimat|work | ok time to go home |
| 21:50.03 | ds2 | the ~1uF ceramic stuff is almost $1 each in singles :( and all I was looking for is 1206 sized ones |
| 21:50.52 | MonMotha | ds2: my experience has been that sometimes the smaller packages are actually cheaper |
| 21:51.00 | MonMotha | even in seemingly "large" capacitances |
| 21:51.12 | ds2 | Hmmmm |
| 21:51.18 | MonMotha | so check 0805 and 0603 |
| 21:51.24 | MonMotha | also check different (higher than required) voltages |
| 21:51.26 | ds2 | guess I will NOT get my PCB order in tonight then :( |
| 21:51.40 | MonMotha | sometimes a 10V 1uF 1206 costs more than a 25V 1uF 0805. Dunno why. |
| 21:51.46 | MonMotha | volume, I guess |
| 21:52.02 | MonMotha | 1uF is actually not that "large" of a capacitor anymore |
| 21:52.11 | MonMotha | you can readily get 1uF in 0603 even at moderate (25-50V) voltages |
| 21:52.15 | ds2 | 1uF for ceramic is not large anymore? |
| 21:52.18 | MonMotha | no |
| 21:52.23 | MonMotha | 10uF is large, now |
| 21:53.08 | ds2 | hmm. then is there any reason to use an alum. or tant. for <10uF anymore? |
| 21:53.44 | MonMotha | dielectric properties (>1uF X7R is still expensive) or specific ESR requirements |
| 21:54.10 | ds2 | ah right, some things do not like too low of an ESR |
| 21:54.25 | ds2 | X7R is purely a temperature co. eff thing, right? |
| 21:54.27 | MonMotha | 10uF 0603 10V caps tend to be Y5V, which will exhibit capacitance drops under voltage load or temperature change |
| 21:54.37 | MonMotha | it's a tempco and also how capacitance changes with applied voltage |
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| 21:54.48 | MonMotha | X7R is the 2nd best, NP0/C0G is the best |
| 21:54.57 | MonMotha | NP0/C0G is pretty much "no dependence" |
| 21:55.03 | ds2 | thought ceramics don't change with applied voltage? |
| 21:55.03 | MonMotha | on both tempco and applied voltage |
| 21:55.23 | MonMotha | X7R doesn't, but some of the other dielectrics certainly do chance capacitance with applied voltage |
| 21:55.41 | MonMotha | Z5U (I think that's it) is especially bad |
| 21:56.11 | ds2 | I have heard of wild temp swings, in ceramics but never of voltage dependance... "yikes" |
| 21:56.55 | MonMotha | well, if you stay away from the "odd" dielectrics, you won't have to worry much about it |
| 21:57.04 | MonMotha | X7R and X5R are pretty well behaved in that regard |
| 21:57.27 | ds2 | cool... datasheets for the pumps I am using all recommend X7R or X5R |
| 21:57.37 | MonMotha | X7R is better, if you care |
| 21:57.51 | MonMotha | but if you don't, may be able to save a few cents with X5R (or may not, check both!) |
| 21:58.00 | ds2 | at this point, if it all works at room temp. I am happy =) |
| 21:58.09 | MonMotha | I found in many cases the X7R cost no more than X5R and was in fact sometimes cheaper! |
| 21:58.35 | ds2 | what confounds me is digikey has 2 digikey P/N's for the same mfg P/N but are sold at different prices |
| 21:59.10 | MonMotha | T&R vs. cut tape? |
| 21:59.24 | MonMotha | Pb-Free vs. old stock w/ lead? |
| 21:59.31 | ds2 | nope, cut tape for both; orderable in singles, same min. quantity, both in stock |
| 21:59.50 | ds2 | didn't check the RoHS status but I'd expect the MFG P/N to be different for RoHS |
| 22:01.42 | MonMotha | ds2: not always |
| 22:01.54 | ds2 | "ARRRRG" |
| 22:01.54 | MonMotha | some mfg just say "everything shipped with this datecode or later is RohS" |
| 22:01.58 | MonMotha | yes, I agree |
| 22:02.22 | ds2 | but since this will not leave the country, that is a don't care |
| 22:02.49 | MonMotha | there can be assembly implications |
| 22:02.53 | MonMotha | mostly with BGA |
| 22:03.47 | ds2 | hand assembled proto :D |
| 22:03.48 | MonMotha | some Pb-Free plated parts don't solder well on leaded processes (not hot enough to re-flow the Pb-Free lead finish), and some Pb-containing parts that aren't RoHS updated aren't rated for the high-temp Pb-Free reflow |
| 22:03.55 | MonMotha | ah, well, then not a problem |
| 22:35.09 | ds2 | hmmm wonder if a "weak" pullup is good enough for a switch |
| 22:37.29 | Mirell | At least you're not making it do crunches... |
| 22:37.43 | ds2 | :D |
| 22:38.30 | ds2 | bah the linux driver is for the SPI version |
| 22:58.33 | MonMotha | ds2: "weak" usually means ~100uA, which is good for a slow switch |
| 22:59.19 | MonMotha | I usually go for 1mA on a switch, but in a battery powered application, lower current is better, and human operated switches won't see a difference |
| 23:00.06 | MonMotha | even 10uA should be fine for a switch, but 1uA may be pushing it in a noisy environment |
| 23:00.08 | ds2 | I am trying to avoid laying out for a bank of resistors |
| 23:00.13 | MonMotha | understood |
| 23:00.28 | ds2 | right now I have things running to a pad that will get a mess of 30G WW wire tacked onto it to the switch |
| 23:00.30 | MonMotha | I assume this is the classic PCF8574 style stuff? |
| 23:00.45 | MonMotha | "quasi bi-directional" |
| 23:00.55 | ds2 | pretty much... this is the MCP part tha Ayder pointed out... open drain I/O |
| 23:01.09 | MonMotha | transistor low output with a weak current source pull up, and you can read the status of the pin |
| 23:01.13 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 23:01.18 | MonMotha | those usually work fine on switches |
| 23:01.38 | MonMotha | the datasheet will usually specify the pull-up current in the electrical characteristics section |
| 23:01.44 | MonMotha | or put it in the "equivalent schematic" |
| 23:01.52 | MonMotha | 10-100uA seems popular |
| 23:06.18 | ds2 | nothing immediately obvious, I'll chance it |
| 23:06.19 | MonMotha | gah, ebay just doesn't get it |
| 23:06.19 | ds2 | eh? |
| 23:06.19 | MonMotha | their sign-in page "contains unauthenticated content" |
| 23:06.19 | MonMotha | but it posts to one of those "uber secure" cerificated pages |
| 23:06.24 | ds2 | heh |
| 23:06.45 | MonMotha | but all the unauthenticated content on the login page makes it worthless since you can't readily verify that it is going to post to who you think it will |
| 23:06.58 | MonMotha | not to mention that allowing unauthenticated content could allow injection of XSS |
| 23:07.55 | MonMotha | the only page they serve up via SSL is the login (the rest is cookie based)...pay the extra half a cent to serve up the images via SSL, too |
| 23:08.09 | Mirell | Go Go some F5s. |
| 23:09.02 | MonMotha | discover card also doesn't get it (last I checked) |
| 23:09.02 | MonMotha | the login form is on an unencrypted/unauthenticated page |
| 23:09.17 | Mirell | Well, that's Discover for you... |
| 23:09.17 | MonMotha | it posts to a form via SSL, but the form they display is not encrypted |
| 23:09.22 | MonMotha | attempting to hit the URL manually via HTTPS results in a redirect to the page not via SSL |
| 23:09.24 | MonMotha | my bank has it figured out |
| 23:09.41 | MonMotha | any page that asks for anything (even the user name) is automatically redirected to SSL if you don't go there that way in the first place |
| 23:09.47 | MonMotha | plus they do the image challenge thing |
| 23:12.40 | ds2 | a lot of banks do that |
| 23:12.53 | ds2 | I just click the sign in button w/o putting anything and it sends me to a form that itself is SSL'ed |
| 23:14.02 | MonMotha | well, many banks you can put the https in manually and it'll work |
| 23:14.05 | MonMotha | Discover redirects you back to non-SSL |
| 23:14.49 | ds2 | DOH |
| 23:14.53 | MonMotha | looks like if you intentionally enter your password wrong (or leave it blank) that it will give you an SSL form |
| 23:15.30 | ds2 | but then again, banks are getting to the point where it is safer to tie $20 bills up on a tree branch then it is to deal with an actual bank :( |
| 23:15.52 | MonMotha | that's why we have FDIC |
| 23:16.14 | ds2 | FDIC only works if a few of them blow up, not all at once |
| 23:16.39 | MonMotha | well, if enough banks blow up that FDIC can't keep up, then you have much bigger worries |
| 23:17.01 | ds2 | aren't we half way there already? |
| 23:17.10 | MonMotha | perhaps |
| 23:17.39 | MonMotha | if FDIC runs out of money, the feds will just float bonds or print money |
| 23:17.50 | MonMotha | and really, printing money right now may not be that bad of an idea |
| 23:18.07 | MonMotha | inflation is very low. Just have to worry about not letting it tick up too fast when the economy does recover. |
| 23:18.24 | ds2 | yes, so it is really no safer then tying it up on a branch... you're going to loose it either through devaluation from more money being printed or ... |
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| 23:19.13 | MonMotha | I'd at least stick to stuffing it in your mattress :) |
| 23:20.41 | ds2 | that assumes you own your mattress and didn't finance that too |
| 23:21.02 | MonMotha | true |
| 23:21.06 | g1powermac_PB | ds2: buy gold |
| 23:21.18 | MonMotha | buying gold NOW is not necessarily the brightest idea |
| 23:21.23 | MonMotha | buy gold 2 years ago :) |
| 23:21.45 | g1powermac_PB | of course, but i think our currency is going to be in for some major devaluation |
| 23:21.55 | g1powermac_PB | and the cost of gold will skyrocket from it |
| 23:21.55 | MonMotha | many currencies are |
| 23:22.14 | g1powermac_PB | especially once the rebound kicks in |
| 23:23.28 | g1powermac_PB | the only reason our currency is doing halfway decent is that the investors are more nervous about the other currencies at this time |
| 23:23.40 | g1powermac_PB | once that changes, the dollar is in for a major crash |
| 23:26.14 | g1powermac_PB | then comes the lovely effects of the federal reserve trying to curb the runaway inflation when we still haven't full recovered causing more nasty effects |
| 23:26.25 | ds2 | yep, buying gold now is almost stupid |
| 23:26.27 | g1powermac_PB | *fully |
| 23:27.15 | MonMotha | I agree that a lot of this action by the various entities (government, fed, etc.) has been a result of "do something!" calls |
| 23:27.46 | MonMotha | that said, it's generally acceptable for government to run a deficit when you're in a recession |
| 23:27.53 | g1powermac_PB | yea, its the same thing that gave us the patriot act, and the prolonged original depression of the 1930's |
| 23:28.05 | MonMotha | the problem was that the USA ran a deficit for years while the USA was in an outright boom |
| 23:28.14 | MonMotha | the economy exhibits positive feedback. It doesn't need more. |
| 23:28.33 | MonMotha | deficit spending in a recession is negative feedback. It prolongs the recession some, but it makes it be "not as bad" (at least that's the theory) |
| 23:28.49 | MonMotha | it can also help smooth out overshoot (the multiple bottom effect) if timed right |
| 23:28.53 | MonMotha | that seems to have not worked this time |
| 23:28.53 | g1powermac_PB | unless we build up too much debt |
| 23:29.04 | g1powermac_PB | where no one is buying our debt |
| 23:29.16 | MonMotha | yes. hence why continuing to run a deficit is bad when during expansionary periouds |
| 23:29.17 | ds2 | the best thing to do right now is to encourage savings, not spending |
| 23:29.18 | g1powermac_PB | because the rest of the world doesn't trust us to repay it |
| 23:29.31 | g1powermac_PB | ds2: absolutely |
| 23:30.00 | MonMotha | actually, savings is the last thing the economy needs right now. It's a long-term very sound and good thing, but getting people to go out and spend money will help turn things around. |
| 23:30.16 | ds2 | weak businesses _NEED_ to go under so we can renew ourselves |
| 23:30.19 | MonMotha | the challenge is getting people to spend responsibly, which is tough when there is the very real prospect of unemployment |
| 23:30.22 | g1powermac_PB | only if that money isn't from debt |
| 23:30.40 | MonMotha | well, I can't say I'd encourage individual deficit spending at this time, no |
| 23:30.42 | g1powermac_PB | the economy needs deleveraging |
| 23:31.03 | MonMotha | but if you've got comfortable savings (6-9 months worth), the economy would do well for you to spend the rest of your paycheck |
| 23:31.04 | ds2 | it will be painful for a few years but savings is better in the long run |
| 23:31.31 | g1powermac_PB | the scary part is how much money we have planned to spend in this country in the upcoming years |
| 23:31.42 | MonMotha | not to mention deals abound |
| 23:32.02 | g1powermac_PB | from what I've heard, its over $60trillion, more than the entire worlds GDP |
| 23:32.03 | MonMotha | now is actually a pretty decent time to invest if you're in it for the major long haul (like retirement planning if you're in your 20s-30s) |
| 23:32.27 | MonMotha | though plain jane consumer spending is what is really needed |
| 23:32.34 | g1powermac_PB | thats mainly for all the medicare, social security, and other welfare type things that will be coming up |
| 23:32.45 | MonMotha | and that requires consumer confidence (i.e. people can't be afraid of losing their jobs within a few months) |
| 23:32.53 | g1powermac_PB | and prolly the interest on the debt |
| 23:33.03 | MonMotha | well, the US federal debt is a big problem |
| 23:33.03 | ds2 | that'd be fine if the stuff to spend on is not all crap |
| 23:33.24 | MonMotha | and unfortunately, while everybody would love to do something about it, now is not the time |
| 23:33.29 | g1powermac_PB | MonMotha: heh, thats not even the current debt we have, thats just promised money |
| 23:33.45 | MonMotha | it's simply not practical to attempt to pay down the national debt in this environment |
| 23:33.51 | MonMotha | we should have been doing that over the past 6 years |
| 23:33.54 | g1powermac_PB | the entire worlds GDP for welfare and interest in one country. . . |
| 23:34.04 | ds2 | too many stores are trying to sell crap for more then what it is really worth through tricks like rebranding |
| 23:34.23 | MonMotha | ds2: as always, caveat emptor |
| 23:34.39 | MonMotha | one of the reasons I love retail: return policies |
| 23:34.41 | g1powermac_PB | the country really needs restructuring |
| 23:34.54 | MonMotha | I'll pay 5% more for the right to take it back no questions asked if it turns out to be crap |
| 23:35.05 | g1powermac_PB | there's no way we could even come close to getting the money to pay that kind of amount |
| 23:35.14 | g1powermac_PB | debt or otherwise |
| 23:36.00 | MonMotha | like the USA PATRIOT act, the current stimulus plan seems to have been developed and passed in haste in order to "just do something" |
| 23:36.14 | g1powermac_PB | yup |
| 23:36.21 | MonMotha | government stimulus in a recessionary period is generally accepted as being a "good idea" |
| 23:36.24 | MonMotha | however, it has to be done right |
| 23:36.38 | *** part/#edev JohnnyL (i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:36.45 | MonMotha | part of the problem is that there haven't exactly been enough recessionary periods to get the necessary experience to figure out how to "do it right" |
| 23:36.53 | g1powermac_PB | agreed, but that kind of stimulus is just plain bad |
| 23:37.01 | g1powermac_PB | especially with the tax hike that followed |
| 23:37.24 | g1powermac_PB | and the disaster that is looming for non-profits |
| 23:37.38 | g1powermac_PB | due to the decrease in tax write offs for donations |
| 23:37.52 | MonMotha | well, the "Bush tax cuts" had issues. I think a good idea would be to revamp the AMT thresholds |
| 23:38.01 | MonMotha | people making $150k should not be paying AMT |
| 23:38.08 | g1powermac_PB | yea |
| 23:38.22 | g1powermac_PB | but raising taxes in a recession is just plain stupid |
| 23:38.22 | MonMotha | and AMT is one of those things that discourages charitable contributions by limiting their usage as a tax deduction |
| 23:39.02 | MonMotha | then again, I'm all for a flat tax, as regressive as it is |
| 23:39.10 | MonMotha | 15-20% off everything and call it good |
| 23:39.19 | g1powermac_PB | especially for the $250k bracket |
| 23:39.34 | g1powermac_PB | many who make that kind of money are small business owners |
| 23:39.36 | MonMotha | I'm tired of the complexity of federal tax law |
| 23:39.52 | solar | would like to be making 250k a year |
| 23:40.05 | g1powermac_PB | we'd be doing that kind of number if our business was about twice the size |
| 23:40.06 | MonMotha | start a small business :) |
| 23:40.17 | MonMotha | either you'll make 250k or you'll go broke :) |
| 23:40.18 | solar | MonMotha: I have. I always end up losing money |
| 23:40.25 | g1powermac_PB | of course, we don't even see much of our profit as we reinvest it back into the business |
| 23:40.42 | g1powermac_PB | but we still have to pay taxes on it. . . |
| 23:40.51 | ds2 | I much rather gov'ts operate like everyone else and have a finite budget. Their current open endded ness of being able to raise taxes willy-nilly everything they spend too much is just wrong. |
| 23:41.31 | MonMotha | well, part of the problem is the whole "pay the feds who will give it back to the states" thing |
| 23:41.33 | ds2 | it is a precentage. when the total tax revenues go down, it is because there isn't enough money. Cut the damn spending and tighten the belts like the rest of us! |
| 23:41.41 | MonMotha | state taxes should be higher, and federal taxes should be lower |
| 23:41.51 | g1powermac_PB | loves how our accounting system works when you buy stock or some such it isn't an expense, just a transfer of capital, so you that doesn't come off your profit |
| 23:42.07 | MonMotha | capital gains? 20%! |
| 23:42.14 | MonMotha | income? 20% |
| 23:42.21 | MonMotha | make things simple |
| 23:42.28 | g1powermac_PB | that'd be nice |
| 23:42.42 | MonMotha | (note that a 15% flat tax would represent a net tax INCREASE for me, yet I'm still advocating it) |
| 23:42.42 | g1powermac_PB | isn't that how's its done in england? |
| 23:43.03 | g1powermac_PB | not sure how their VAT taxes work out there |
| 23:43.13 | MonMotha | I don't like VAT |
| 23:43.16 | MonMotha | it's insideous |
| 23:43.20 | MonMotha | lots of tax hidden |
| 23:43.26 | g1powermac_PB | ahh |
| 23:43.42 | MonMotha | every step that "adds value" is taxed |
| 23:43.54 | g1powermac_PB | oh thats fun |
| 23:44.11 | MonMotha | so a finished good can have been taxed already several times before you even saw it |
| 23:44.29 | g1powermac_PB | yea, that isn't good |
| 23:44.33 | MonMotha | I do like the fact that prices are published "tax included", but even areas with traditional sales tax (rather than VAT) do that |
| 23:44.44 | ds2 | wonder if there is a refund for value reduction? i.e. sale of scrap due to mfg error |
| 23:44.45 | MonMotha | the US is kinda odd with its "tax exclusive" price publishing |
| 23:45.01 | g1powermac_PB | yea, would be nice if they included the tax here |
| 23:45.04 | MonMotha | ds2: I doubt it :) |
| 23:45.24 | MonMotha | in fact, I'm guessing the scrap gets taxed in many places |
| 23:45.31 | g1powermac_PB | the only thing done like that here is gasoline sales |
| 23:45.38 | ds2 | what's more irritating is states deciding to tax free stuff |
| 23:45.42 | MonMotha | gasoline and vending machines |
| 23:45.49 | g1powermac_PB | oh yea |
| 23:45.52 | g1powermac_PB | forgot those |
| 23:46.08 | MonMotha | in many states, it's actually ILLEGAL to publish prices inclusive of tax |
| 23:46.09 | MonMotha | I have no idea why |
| 23:46.28 | g1powermac_PB | yea |
| 23:46.30 | MonMotha | I loved how in Japan, I could just fork over a 100 yen coin for every item I bought off the 100 yen menu |
| 23:46.35 | MonMotha | they can'd to that in the US |
| 23:46.39 | MonMotha | *can't |
| 23:47.43 | ds2 | OSH does there every on specials weekends... "We pay the sales tax weekends" |
| 23:47.53 | ds2 | (OSH == Orchard Supply and Hardware) |
| 23:57.10 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp069.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |