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| 01:37.31 | ds2 | anyone here used the chipquik stuff for removing high pincount SMT chips? |
| 01:42.57 | ds2 | Ah ha, took most of the day but I found the catch/problem with the MCP23008... despite being open drain, it is only rated up to Vdd on the pins vs being up to 5V on the other devices! |
| 01:51.06 | MonMotha | ds2: I just use a heat gun |
| 01:51.19 | MonMotha | and that limitation is very common |
| 01:53.06 | ds2 | don't you risk delaminating the copper with a heat gun? their little demo at the trade shows looked spiffy and I got a few samples collected |
| 01:53.39 | ds2 | I don't understand why an OD/OC output would be limited to Vdd... doesn't that partially defeat the point of an OD/OC output? |
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| 02:18.34 | ccjoe | Chipquik looks like great stuff, I have a hot air reflow machine but chipquik looks faster and safer |
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| 02:21.58 | ds2 | "looks" |
| 02:23.08 | MonMotha | ds2: it's because of the pull-up current source |
| 02:23.28 | MonMotha | I've never delaminated a board using a heat gun, but yes it is a danger |
| 02:23.35 | MonMotha | a heat gun with controllable temp is nice |
| 02:23.39 | MonMotha | though I don't have one at home |
| 02:23.52 | ds2 | ah, not one of those $10 ones at Horror Freight sales |
| 02:24.42 | MonMotha | that's actually what I use :) |
| 02:24.44 | ds2 | MonMotha: if that's the case, I should be able to run at >Vdd if the pull up is disabled? |
| 02:24.50 | MonMotha | it's a terrible heat gun, but it works |
| 02:25.00 | ds2 | you must be more skilled; cuz I delaminate boards with just a soldering iron! |
| 02:25.01 | MonMotha | no, even if the pull-up is disabled, there's usually still a diode to Vdd |
| 02:25.15 | ds2 | ARRG |
| 02:25.18 | MonMotha | I've only delaminated REALLY cheap PCBs with a soldering iron in recent memory |
| 02:25.21 | MonMotha | I do have a good iron, though |
| 02:25.48 | ds2 | So my choice are to use a part I can't get (maxim) or use a part I can get and have to throw in a transistor |
| 02:26.02 | ds2 | kind of hard to drive a blue LED with a 1.8V power source :) |
| 02:26.06 | MonMotha | well yeah |
| 02:26.10 | MonMotha | can you use SPI? |
| 02:26.35 | ds2 | Maybe, but then I need to rig up the CS lines (got a TSC on the SPI port already) |
| 02:26.38 | MonMotha | TI has a line of high-voltage high-current "logic" and one is a 74595-like part |
| 02:26.52 | MonMotha | can't just use a spare GPIO as a CS? |
| 02:27.33 | ds2 | I am trying not to have to do major engineering in the 4hours I have to get Linux to understand my hw; otherwise, yes, I have the GPIO available for a CS even though the SPI controller won't understand that |
| 02:27.50 | MonMotha | what machtype is this? |
| 02:27.54 | ds2 | OMAP3 |
| 02:27.57 | MonMotha | many machtypes understand GPIO for SPI CS |
| 02:28.17 | ds2 | the McSPI's have a dedicated /CS output already |
| 02:28.19 | MonMotha | in fact, on AT91, you have to mux your I/O as a GPIO (Even if it is one of the hardware chip selects) to work around a bug in the chip |
| 02:28.30 | ds2 | Hmmm |
| 02:28.45 | MonMotha | heh, so do the AT91 SPI masters, but the auto-CS in hardware makes some assumptions that are frequently invalid |
| 02:28.51 | MonMotha | so the workaround is to use software managed CS |
| 02:28.57 | MonMotha | not like that's overly taxing on the CPU or anything |
| 02:29.11 | MonMotha | you can't queue up transfers to different slaves on AT91 |
| 02:29.16 | ds2 | wonder if Linux has hooks for that already |
| 02:29.22 | MonMotha | so you have to have CPU intervention whenever you switch slaves, anyway |
| 02:29.28 | MonMotha | dunno if McSPI will handle that or not |
| 02:29.32 | MonMotha | probably does |
| 02:29.38 | MonMotha | (has hooks that is) |
| 02:30.03 | ds2 | I know the TSC driver can handle it (it usees sync. SPI xfers); just donno if the GPIO stuff will do that too |
| 02:30.07 | MonMotha | often people will run out of dedicated CS pins, want to use another pin for pin muxing reasons (special feature is available only on that pin), or just because it makes the layout nice |
| 02:30.36 | MonMotha | heh, I actually had a TSC on my SPI port, and that's what made me notice the AT91 CS bug |
| 02:31.14 | MonMotha | it was releasing CS between each byte of the transfer, which reset the TSC's state machine |
| 02:32.02 | ds2 | DOH |
| 02:32.25 | ds2 | I wish they made I2C TSC's instead; easier on the layout |
| 02:32.44 | MonMotha | might have some latency issues due to low bandwidth of a normal I2C bus |
| 02:33.12 | MonMotha | but yes, it would be nice |
| 02:33.22 | MonMotha | I2C is great unless you have to translate voltages |
| 02:33.24 | MonMotha | then it sucks |
| 02:33.28 | ds2 | Indeed |
| 02:33.41 | ds2 | I am so happy for the TXS0104E from TI |
| 02:34.32 | MonMotha | ah, neat little chip |
| 02:34.47 | ds2 | there is a TXS0102 if all you need is 2 of them instead of 4 |
| 02:34.57 | MonMotha | spiffy |
| 02:36.03 | MonMotha | still, SPI can be translated using just resistors in some cases |
| 02:36.27 | MonMotha | even more fun, you can make the "level translation" resistor double as a high-speed terminator if you're careful and lucky |
| 02:36.33 | ds2 | resistors? as in a 5V master to a lower voltage slave? |
| 02:36.48 | MonMotha | or vice versa |
| 02:37.02 | ds2 | I do not want to think about high speed right now... 2 layer board, 0.25mm traces, rats nest routing :( |
| 02:37.11 | MonMotha | as long as the output "high" from the low voltage device is within Voh of the high voltage device |
| 02:37.34 | MonMotha | and the low voltage side has input protection diodes (which almost all devices do) |
| 02:37.42 | MonMotha | it's not for all situations, but it can work |
| 02:37.49 | ds2 | Oh you just limit current? |
| 02:37.52 | MonMotha | pretty much |
| 02:38.23 | roxfan | PXA270 128/128 usb key for $50 http://yoggie.com/open-firewall-pico |
| 02:38.28 | ds2 | Nice. I'd still feel better if I have a OD/OC driver one way and a proper high voltage tolerate going the opposite |
| 02:38.54 | MonMotha | well, there are times when "real" translation is required |
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| 02:40.08 | MonMotha | 0.25mm traces aren't that huge |
| 02:40.15 | MonMotha | that's ~10mil |
| 02:40.30 | MonMotha | slightly under, so I wouldn't get the "10/10 and larger" discount |
| 02:40.45 | ds2 | right, so inductive ringing + stray capactiance == painful board bring up |
| 02:41.01 | MonMotha | you know, I rarely have high-speed problems |
| 02:41.05 | ds2 | 0.25mm is the min. on the miniboard special from expresspcb |
| 02:41.12 | MonMotha | I guess it may just be because I'm careful when I do my layout |
| 02:41.15 | ds2 | you don't layout like I do ;) |
| 02:41.19 | MonMotha | perhaps not |
| 02:41.32 | ds2 | rats can probally layout better :( |
| 02:41.52 | MonMotha | actually, I can only think of one real high-speed problem, and I unfortunately didn't catch it before production |
| 02:41.59 | MonMotha | so my ethernet only worked at 10Mbps :( |
| 02:42.21 | ds2 | high speed is defined > 500KHz for me ! |
| 02:42.21 | MonMotha | the others I all apparently anticipated and handled, since I had some 133MHz SDRAM which is sure to have some high-speed concerns |
| 02:42.42 | MonMotha | jeesh, that's barely even MF |
| 02:43.07 | MonMotha | I generally pay no special attention unless something is at least 3-5MHz |
| 02:43.09 | ds2 | I trust myself to blink and mux LEDs, anything else, I worry |
| 02:47.36 | MonMotha | in general, just keep your layout "tight" and keep "return" lines (power/ground) close by and wide |
| 02:48.09 | MonMotha | unless things are really high frequency, coupling from line to line is far less of a worry than simple endline effects |
| 02:48.41 | ds2 | I seem recall issues with square waves causing ringing on adjacent lines |
| 02:50.49 | MonMotha | low impedance output coupling to a high impedance input? |
| 02:51.10 | ds2 | something like that |
| 02:51.31 | MonMotha | that can happen |
| 02:51.41 | MonMotha | I've never had it be a problem, though |
| 02:51.50 | MonMotha | and keeping power/ground near the high-frequency stuff helps a lot |
| 02:52.12 | ds2 | between that and op-amps oscillating up in the 10's of megahertz (DC amplifier); I worry about high freq |
| 02:52.12 | MonMotha | current always flows in loops, and the larger the loop area (physically), the worse the coupling will be (and the harder it will be to pass EMC) |
| 02:52.32 | MonMotha | heh, oscillating op-amps are always fun |
| 02:52.38 | MonMotha | there's a reason I prefer digital stuff :) |
| 02:52.43 | ds2 | *nod* EE myself; just past experiences.... |
| 02:53.17 | MonMotha | if you have real problems with coupling/endline effects, you may have to go to a real controlled impedance layout |
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| 02:53.51 | MonMotha | if it's not actually an RF application, you rarely need to pay for the impedance testing, but designing lines with target impedances and applying suitable termination does work wonders |
| 02:53.52 | ds2 | I am convinced my issues are due to my rats nest layout resulting from forcing things on 2 layers |
| 02:54.06 | MonMotha | yeah, I don't like to force things on to two layers if it really won't fit |
| 02:54.30 | MonMotha | that's why when the Marvell rep tells me their latest ARM can be done on 2 layers I just give them a blank look |
| 02:54.50 | MonMotha | perhaps it is physically possible to fan the chip out, but good luck hooking it up to anything, let alone passing EMC |
| 02:54.57 | ds2 | heh... but 2 to 4 layer gets rid of a lot of cheap PCB vendors :( |
| 02:55.09 | MonMotha | and the ones who can still do it no longer do it "cheap" |
| 02:55.18 | MonMotha | though 4PCB does have the $66/ea special |
| 02:55.28 | MonMotha | that's a pretty good deal, but not "cheap" |
| 02:55.35 | MonMotha | $66/ea for 4 boards + a 5th one free |
| 02:55.38 | ds2 | it is low power, encase it in epoxy + a grounded lead case :D |
| 02:55.56 | ds2 | ExpressPCB is doing a 2L board for $51/3 |
| 02:56.06 | MonMotha | $51 for the lot? that's pretty good |
| 02:56.08 | MonMotha | what size? |
| 02:56.10 | ds2 | yep |
| 02:56.18 | ds2 | 4x3 or something like that |
| 02:56.19 | MonMotha | and what spec? |
| 02:56.37 | ds2 | 2L, no silk, hot knife finish |
| 02:56.52 | MonMotha | 4PCB is $33/ea for 4 (+1 free), 2L, 6/6, 15mil finished hole, soldermask/silk both sides |
| 02:57.04 | MonMotha | outline of your choice (non-square permitted) |
| 02:57.18 | ds2 | Oh? star shaped? ;) |
| 02:57.31 | MonMotha | if you want |
| 02:57.36 | MonMotha | they'll do pac-man ghosts |
| 02:58.00 | MonMotha | that's also a max of 60 sq in (multi-design panel costs an extra $50 for the lot, though) |
| 02:58.04 | ds2 | nice but that's still $$ (relatively) |
| 02:58.23 | ds2 | bbl. traffic battle time |
| 02:58.28 | MonMotha | yeah, even their "barebones" deal doesn't beat $51/3 |
| 02:58.37 | MonMotha | though you get 6/6 |
| 03:37.13 | ds2 | back |
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| 07:51.41 | methril|work | yo |
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| 08:50.38 | florian | good morning |
| 09:08.10 | Mirell | Morning. |
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| 10:27.18 | Mirell | Oh, Woz, Woz, Woz... |
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| 17:32.28 | mib_b9oiv2 | hello there |
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| 17:42.25 | ds2 | morning |
| 17:42.39 | mib_b9oiv2 | 'night for me :) |
| 17:43.46 | ds2 | defective sun? ;) |
| 17:44.44 | mib_b9oiv2 | other side of the earth i rpesume :) |
| 17:46.35 | mib_b9oiv2 | I have some question about my current "project" |
| 17:46.47 | mib_b9oiv2 | i'm currently trying to hack a picture frame |
| 17:48.19 | mib_b9oiv2 | it's actually a little board with a samsung s3c2412 processor , samsung 256M Nand flash ( not sure about that but this will be part of my questions) , samsung 64MB SDRAM |
| 17:49.08 | mib_b9oiv2 | it runs on eCos , sources are released by the manufacturer ( Parrot ) but are unbuildable |
| 17:49.41 | mib_b9oiv2 | i found the serial port , see the boot message , but no prompt... |
| 17:50.59 | mib_b9oiv2 | finally there is a working JTAG port |
| 17:51.30 | mib_b9oiv2 | I was wondering if it was possible to load u-boot in ram and launch it without erasing the NAND |
| 17:52.49 | ds2 | yes |
| 17:53.01 | mib_b9oiv2 | good news :) thanks |
| 17:53.06 | ds2 | donno how but should be a matter of copying to ram and jumping to it |
| 17:53.16 | ds2 | guessing gdb + openocd might be a way |
| 17:53.32 | mib_b9oiv2 | ok it's what i'm using atm |
| 17:54.36 | ds2 | I think if you can get the u-boot.bin, a set $pc=startaddr should do it |
| 17:54.57 | chouimat|work | hi |
| 17:55.00 | mib_b9oiv2 | thanks :) and another question |
| 17:57.04 | mib_b9oiv2 | will it be necessary to initialiaze the sdram |
| 17:57.10 | mib_b9oiv2 | initialize* |
| 17:57.22 | mib_b9oiv2 | or u-boot will take care of that ? |
| 17:57.32 | ds2 | well, if you are loading it into SDRAM.... |
| 17:57.46 | ds2 | does the s3c's have some SRAM to drop U-boot into? |
| 17:58.24 | mib_b9oiv2 | hum not sure about that |
| 17:58.52 | ds2 | actually, I'd think it must have some if it is anything like other ARM's with a bootloader |
| 17:59.13 | mib_b9oiv2 | ok |
| 17:59.43 | ds2 | someone else here might know more... haven't spent a lot of time with the s3c family |
| 17:59.44 | mib_b9oiv2 | i pretty new to "arm" world and datasheets are a bit confusing :/ |
| 18:00.24 | mib_b9oiv2 | ok |
| 18:01.56 | ds2 | there is the ARM universe then you have the little worlds like S3C, OMAP, PXA, AT91's, etc |
| 18:02.29 | chouimat|work | ds2: orion, kirkwood,sheeva |
| 18:03.18 | ds2 | constellation, ski resort, and ?????? |
| 18:03.41 | chouimat|work | ds2: marvell arm based on the feroceon core ... |
| 18:03.43 | mib_b9oiv2 | computer maybe :) |
| 18:05.32 | ds2 | looks up feroceon |
| 18:05.50 | mib_b9oiv2 | thanks for your help ds2 |
| 18:05.51 | mib_b9oiv2 | ++ |
| 18:06.05 | ds2 | np |
| 18:07.40 | ds2 | hmm out of order exec. |
| 18:07.51 | ds2 | but nothing straightforward on what it compares to |
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| 18:12.12 | ds2 | Hmmm what does this mean " 0:01.30 top |
| 18:12.15 | ds2 | bah |
| 18:12.20 | ds2 | Compliant with the Cortex A8, Sheeva also supports both the ARMv6 and ARMv7 instruction sets |
| 18:12.36 | ds2 | isn't v7 a superset of v6? |
| 18:13.47 | chouimat|work | stop reading marketing stuff ;) |
| 18:14.27 | solar | http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/sheevaplug/ |
| 18:16.22 | ds2 | hmmm |
| 18:16.36 | chouimat|work | ds2: solar I have a few on my desk :) |
| 18:16.54 | ds2 | solar: so this means sheeva is a hacked up ARMv5TE that supports ARMv7 instructions? |
| 18:17.01 | chouimat|work | and this also include a kirkwood rd-6281 unit |
| 18:17.51 | armin76 | ds2: it doesn't support armv7 instructions, not the one on the sheevaplug |
| 18:17.56 | solar | ds2: no idea on the v7. cpuinfo shows it being only a Feroceon 88FR131 rev 1 (v5l) |
| 18:18.10 | chouimat|work | which is ARM926EJ-S based |
| 18:18.19 | ds2 | Okay so the marvell page must mean there is another sheeva |
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| 18:18.35 | ds2 | http://www.marvell.com/technologies/cpu_history/cpu_history.jsp |
| 18:18.40 | ds2 | the last paragraph |
| 18:18.51 | chouimat|work | ds2: I just asked the marvell guy here and he doesn't know ... |
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| 18:19.11 | ds2 | hahah so I guess google is right... this is a grey area that no one really knows ;) |
| 18:19.53 | solar | that is a bit strange. |
| 18:20.21 | chouimat|work | ds2: remember this thing is not in full production yet and there is othe member in the family that are not ready yet ... can't talk more nda and stuff |
| 18:20.33 | ds2 | oh |
| 18:22.43 | solar | chouimat|away: did you buy them all (on desk). or vendor donated? |
| 18:27.13 | chouimat|work | solar: let just say marvell likes us ... I work for axentra |
| 18:28.39 | solar | neat |
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| 21:28.46 | solar | fire on the 13th floor. Got to go home right after lunch :) |
| 22:21.41 | Mirell | Woo, Lua books came |
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