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| 03:07.35 | ds2 | great mystery of Digikey... why ordering 3 of something is sometimes packed as 3 seperate bags each with a cut from tape component where as ordering another component gets you a strip of 3 in a single bag |
| 03:08.30 | roxfan | maybe they sometimes "optimize" the process and send 3 orders to 3 separate packers? o.o |
| 03:08.43 | agaffney | parallelization for the win! |
| 03:13.47 | ds2 | this is all in one order |
| 03:14.06 | ds2 | some come in a single bag, other is a stack of 3 individual bags with labels on each stapled together |
| 03:14.21 | Mirell | Randomize your chances of getting a golden ticket |
| 03:16.14 | ds2 | Oh yeah, then there are those vacuum packed zener diodes |
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| 03:53.12 | fureddo | Hi, anyone knows a good website where I can download applications for Windows Mobile 6? |
| 03:53.34 | fureddo | Like open-source stuff, for example. |
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| 04:03.36 | MonMotha | fureddo: actually, Windows Mobile is pretty much not a topic in here. Some low level WinCE stuff comes up occasionally, but app level stuff almost never. |
| 04:05.26 | fureddo | I see. Well, if I'm lucky someone will have some info anyway. |
| 04:06.46 | ds2 | random hints - 0.015 is a very useful size solder for SMT |
| 04:09.21 | fureddo | Ok, finally, I found something using Google. |
| 04:09.48 | MonMotha | ds2: that's really tiny |
| 04:10.15 | MonMotha | though I've seen smaller |
| 04:10.27 | MonMotha | everybody seems to figure out their own technique for soldering small stuff |
| 04:10.30 | MonMotha | there are lots of options |
| 04:11.59 | ds2 | I am very happy with how well it is working on the finer pitch stuff |
| 04:12.16 | ds2 | this happens to be the finest sold by the local (ratshack) place |
| 04:17.30 | MonMotha | I've actually had very good luck with Radio Shack solder |
| 04:17.49 | MonMotha | their soldering irons suck (though they're better than the $3 specials you see at other places), but the solder seems pretty good |
| 04:17.55 | MonMotha | oh, and the flux isn't absolutely nasty |
| 04:18.16 | MonMotha | is this the solder with silver in it that they sell? |
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| 15:34.13 | chouimat|work | morning |
| 15:34.28 | florian | hi chouimat|work |
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| 16:28.30 | kergoth | morning |
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| 16:37.34 | florian | hi kergoth |
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| 17:32.40 | solar | pokes kergoth.. tslib-1.1 anytime in the near future? |
| 17:33.17 | kergoth | most likely, yes just need to find the time.. :\ |
| 17:33.39 | kergoth | taking classes is taking up a bit of what time i have left nowadays. only 2 classes, but still |
| 17:33.44 | kergoth | i'll see if i can get it done this weekend |
| 17:34.35 | solar | thanks bud. Only thing I ever encounter problems with is the change on the .so from 0.0 to 1.0 and xorg having a bit of a problem finding it |
| 17:35.00 | solar | cuz pkg-config --libs tslib (no longer worked) but --libs tslib-1 ; did |
| 17:35.37 | solar | despite the old one being installed as tslib-0.pc |
| 17:36.09 | kergoth | ahh, i see |
| 17:36.52 | kergoth | i'm doing OpenEmbedded work again, now that i'm getting back into the swing of things with embedded and open source, hopefully i'll be able to get more done there. just need to pick up an actual board to play with and i'll be good to go |
| 17:38.28 | solar | needs to rape your OM repo and try to make sense of the matchbox2 stuff in there. |
| 17:39.46 | kergoth | heh, OpenEmbedded and its variants not pushing patches upstream comes back to the lack of individual responsibility imo. they need to get individual package maintainers going again, give those people responsibility for working with upstream and other distros for the associated patches |
| 17:45.13 | kergoth | grumbles some more |
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| 18:11.25 | Crofton|work | kergoth, on the other hand, the upstream projects should check our patches |
| 18:11.46 | Crofton|work | we provide fairly stable and easy access to our meta-data |
| 18:11.59 | kergoth | I don't think that's likely. Do you really expect them to watch every distribution that exists, rather than the distributions containing them, a single point of contact? |
| 18:12.02 | kergoth | Not going to happen |
| 18:12.15 | kergoth | s/containing/contacting/ |
| 18:12.16 | Crofton|work | they can at least look in the recipes |
| 18:12.38 | kergoth | and we can look upstream. expecting them to check numerous distros instead of us checking one place is ridiculous. |
| 18:12.43 | Crofton|work | kergoth, this is a really hard problem |
| 18:13.02 | kergoth | ubuntu, debian, a number of distros have patch tracking systems to keep track of this stuff now. |
| 18:13.07 | kergoth | that's the approach we should take as well, imo |
| 18:13.08 | Crofton|work | expecting a dozen people to push stuff to 1K projects is also ridiculous |
| 18:13.40 | Crofton|work | we have scalability issues |
| 18:13.45 | kergoth | do you expect the kernel maintainers to contact you and request your patches, too? |
| 18:13.46 | kergoth | please. |
| 18:13.49 | Crofton|work | I do not know how to solve them |
| 18:13.53 | kergoth | you push to upstream, they don't pull. |
| 18:14.17 | Crofton|work | for the machines I work with, we do try to get stuff upstream |
| 18:14.27 | Crofton|work | kernel wise |
| 18:14.46 | Crofton|work | but I can barely keep my head above water |
| 18:15.09 | kergoth | you missed the point. there are always more downstreams than there are upstreams, which is why changes generally flow from down to up, not vice versa. it's unrealistic to expect anything else |
| 18:17.31 | kergoth | this is just a guess, but i'd be willing to bet that we have a lot of users who would be willing to help out if they knew what to help with. if we could hand them a list of unmaintained packages and show them what's involved in maintaining something, i think our manpower would grow a bit, and the core folks could focus on more infrastructure and architecture |
| 18:17.32 | kergoth | shrugs |
| 18:19.16 | kergoth | on a related note, i think it'd be better to be honest about it. just say this core set of packages is really maintained, everything else gets occasional fixes, but the attention is cursory, build them and use them at your own risk |
| 18:19.23 | kergoth | rather than having a pile of stuff that may or may not be functional |
| 18:19.49 | Crofton|work | yeah, that is a reasonable idea |
| 18:20.12 | Crofton|work | I'm not sure how to communicate that effectively |
| 18:32.20 | MonMotha | kergoth: I think that would help. One of the biggest issues we seemed to have with OE was that it was difficult to know what configurations were "likely to work" |
| 18:32.48 | kergoth | yeah, that seems to be one of the most common issues people have when getting started |
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| 19:04.40 | solar | thinks you really need the equiv of USE="stuff" |
| 19:05.29 | kergoth | heh, we sort of have that.. theres just a lot of them, instead of one. i wouldnt mind there being lots of vars to control behaviors if only they were flagged as such, documented, and typed for generation of docs and for frontends to configuration.. |
| 19:05.42 | kergoth | but as is nobody knows what vars to set |
| 19:05.44 | kergoth | or what can be set |
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| 19:13.19 | florian | re |
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| 19:18.16 | solar | kergoth: btw I'm asking a few users to confirm that the vcs tslib works for them. |
| 19:18.26 | kergoth | thanks |
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| 19:39.37 | solar | 1 confirmed report vcs version from 2 days ago is working on the freerunner |
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| 20:37.42 | ds2 | ARRRRRRG |
| 20:38.03 | ds2 | microchip SSOP's are a tiny bit wider then a stock TSSOP :((((( |
| 20:38.23 | MonMotha | ALWAYS check manufacturer's recommended footprints |
| 20:39.09 | MonMotha | I made that mistake once a long time ago. Now I always verify compatibility |
| 20:39.26 | MonMotha | I'm actually a big fan of doing a 1:1 printout on paper and placing all the components on it to verify before having the PCB fabricated |
| 20:40.14 | ds2 | that works fine if you had the components on hand |
| 20:40.19 | MonMotha | yes |
| 20:40.29 | MonMotha | if I have time, I order them all ahead |
| 20:40.40 | ds2 | did not have the luxury of getting the components before the PCB went to fab :( |
| 20:40.43 | MonMotha | I see |
| 20:51.48 | ds2 | sqeezed it onto the pads :S |
| 20:52.01 | Crofton|work | :) |
| 20:53.01 | ds2 | So Microchip at this point is on the list of venders to avoid unless absolutely needed |
| 20:53.13 | ds2 | Only maxim is below them at the moment |
| 21:01.20 | MonMotha | ds2: welcome to the club of people who avoid Microchip :) |
| 21:01.40 | MonMotha | it seems to be a pretty big club |
| 21:05.20 | gustavoz | lucky they didn't succeed in bidding for atmel |
| 21:05.58 | MonMotha | I don't think any of the people who actually use this stuff wanted that to go through |
| 21:06.06 | MonMotha | at least nobody I talked to did |
| 21:06.16 | MonMotha | the Atmel stuff is pretty well liked; the Microchip stuff is not so well liked |
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| 21:07.00 | MonMotha | not to mention that such a deal would have likely resulted in the destruction of most of Atmel |
| 21:07.05 | MonMotha | most of Atmel's tech that is |
| 21:07.21 | MonMotha | I think they were mostly interested in attempting to buy the customer base of AVR to move it to PIC |
| 21:07.24 | gustavoz | here (in argentina) people tend to like microchip and they sell well, i mostly shudder at that |
| 21:07.49 | ohsix | atmel was more interested in that deal than microchip, hasn't this conversation been had more than once already? |
| 21:07.51 | MonMotha | oh, PIC sells well here, too, but it seems that it mostly sells to people who have never seen AVR or MSP430 |
| 21:08.19 | MonMotha | orly? none of their public statements would suggest that, and nothing I heard from inside Atmel suggested that. |
| 21:08.42 | MonMotha | I'm sure they would have been OK with it had the price been higher (hard to turn down enough cash, after all) |
| 21:08.50 | gustavoz | i wouldn't bet on that either |
| 21:09.09 | MonMotha | but whether Atmel was actually interested or not is irrelevant. I'm speaking as a design engineer, |
| 21:09.27 | MonMotha | I find most of Microchip's products and development tools inferior to Atmel's. |
| 21:09.34 | ds2 | It wasn't that bad with their DIP parts |
| 21:09.38 | gustavoz | plus you've got gnu tools for atmel |
| 21:09.57 | MonMotha | gustavoz: that's all I use :) |
| 21:09.58 | ohsix | all you need is an assembler and an emulator |
| 21:10.01 | MonMotha | well, I have a couple of the dev boards |
| 21:10.03 | gustavoz | MonMotha: well same for me :) |
| 21:10.17 | MonMotha | ohsix: you're not using C? |
| 21:10.21 | MonMotha | what kind of nut are you? |
| 21:10.24 | ohsix | heh |
| 21:10.32 | gustavoz | he's a pic nut, you can't do C on those :P |
| 21:10.36 | MonMotha | I used to program all my 8-bit stuff in assembly, too. Then the C compilers got decent. |
| 21:10.45 | ohsix | well you cant speak of the parts on your terms, thats not what they do with the pics |
| 21:11.26 | MonMotha | if I can save man-months of software development time while not changing per-unit cost, why would I not do it? |
| 21:12.05 | MonMotha | not to mention that Atmel has more than AVR. I think you'd be absolutely insane to attempt to do what's done with the ~256kB ARM processors entirely in assembly |
| 21:12.07 | ohsix | if they were in the same market segments this might be a useful convesation to have ... again |
| 21:12.33 | gustavoz | newlib any good for the at91sam7? got my kit but didn't play with it yet |
| 21:13.18 | MonMotha | gustavoz: I don't remember what we used for the libc. |
| 21:13.30 | MonMotha | whatever it was, it worked pretty darned well |
| 21:14.43 | chouimat|work | gustavoz: sdcc seems to support some pic ;) |
| 21:14.46 | gustavoz | i've got the iar eval ide that's limited to 64k or so of code |
| 21:15.02 | gustavoz | that won't do me any good if i want bigger code |
| 21:16.02 | ds2 | scratches his head... are transistors moisture sensitive? |
| 21:16.27 | gustavoz | soldering issues? |
| 21:16.54 | ds2 | 3 SOT-23 MOSFETs came from digikey vacuum sealed in a static bag with dissecant and a humidity sensor card inside it |
| 21:16.58 | ds2 | seems overkill |
| 21:17.21 | gustavoz | not so, leave them out a month in a humid environment and try soldering them |
| 21:17.23 | gustavoz | *then |
| 21:17.27 | ds2 | soldering issues...sure for automatic soldering... but when is a strip of 3 transistors machine-solderable? |
| 21:18.10 | ohsix | corrosion is no fun for anyone |
| 21:18.32 | gustavoz | time to go, cya tomorrow |
| 21:18.58 | MonMotha | ds2: it's mostly procedure |
| 21:19.13 | MonMotha | the manufacturer says "MSL 3" (or whatever), so they drypack it |
| 21:19.44 | MonMotha | for hand soldering, it's not usually a problem, though after several months, many finishes will start to corrode some and not solder right |
| 21:20.00 | MonMotha | but then even "non-moisture sensitive" parts can have that corrosion problem |
| 21:20.11 | MonMotha | and you could still reflow them, even if you had place thme |
| 21:20.55 | ds2 | I'd think the finish should prevent that |
| 21:21.10 | ds2 | the other issue is popcorning but again, hand soldering doesn't trigger that either |
| 21:21.22 | ohsix | finishes have their own electrical properties too |
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| 21:23.14 | MonMotha | ds2: but like I said, even if you can't machine place a strip of 3 SOT-23s (which you probably can't), you could still hand place them an reflow, which could lead to the popcorn effect |
| 21:23.58 | MonMotha | I do kinda wish that Digi-Key would let me elect to have non-drypack and pass the savings on to me |
| 21:24.35 | ds2 | yes, that would be good |
| 21:24.37 | ohsix | they charge extra for it? or for the part |
| 21:24.49 | ds2 | saner packaging overall would be good |
| 21:26.08 | MonMotha | ohsix: they don't charge extra, but sealed drypack bags with desiccant and the little humidity card has to cost more than dumping it in a standard anti-stat back with a little label |
| 21:26.28 | MonMotha | so I'm guessing they could offer a slight discount |
| 21:26.43 | MonMotha | dunno how it would fit in to their workflow, though |
| 21:26.48 | MonMotha | I know they do a lot of pre-pack |
| 21:27.43 | ohsix | generally they spread those costs across all the shipping costs to cover even expensive occasionals with the flat price |
| 21:28.29 | MonMotha | yes, it's rolled into their overall cost structure, I'm sure |
| 21:28.37 | MonMotha | hence why I don't think implementing it would be easy |
| 21:29.07 | MonMotha | what I'm saying, though, is that I'm guessing a large number of people buying 5 transistors don't care about the drypack, and would happily pay 25 cents less if they could |
| 21:29.09 | ohsix | and if they did elect to pass the savings on to the buyer, it would likely end up costing more for everyone, heh |
| 21:29.23 | MonMotha | I don't know. They do have huge volume, so little bits of cost do add up. |
| 21:29.42 | MonMotha | but at the same time, it might require a major alteration to their workflow |
| 21:30.24 | MonMotha | if I've got a 100 BOM line order of 5 parts each, saving me 25 cents per item to not have it dry-packed if I'm going to hand assemble saves me $25. That might pay the tech to assemble it. |
| 21:30.44 | MonMotha | 25 cents per line item, that is |
| 21:31.34 | ds2 | what irks me is half the stuff is package individually (cut tape, unit 1) in its own sealed plastic bag then stapled together while another would have the quantity you ordered cut from a tape and sealed in a single bag |
| 21:31.37 | ohsix | but you cant take the savings from one item, but have the aggregate price applied to all items (to cover costs), plus that would add more shipping plan costs |
| 21:31.47 | ds2 | it cannotbe cheap using all those bags + labels on each |
| 21:32.41 | ohsix | its not, but the price is already built in to their shipping plans |
| 21:34.28 | MonMotha | ohsix: yes. I'm asking them to adjust those plans to save me a dime |
| 21:34.36 | MonMotha | Mouser pulls it off. Why can't Digi-Key? |
| 21:34.56 | ds2 | mouser seems to come up short on selection |
| 21:34.59 | MonMotha | ds2: oh, did they manage to staple through the dry-pack bag rendering it unsealed? I've had that happen :) |
| 21:35.01 | MonMotha | ds2: unfortunately |
| 21:35.08 | MonMotha | that is my one complaint about Mouser |
| 21:35.21 | MonMotha | I sometimes end up buying from Digi-Key simply because Mouser doesn't have what I wnat |
| 21:35.35 | MonMotha | but at least they don't ship me the wrong stuff :) |
| 21:35.52 | MonMotha | I had a big pile of stuff at work that was "Digi-Key shipped me the wrong thing" |
| 21:36.03 | ds2 | that they did not do |
| 21:36.19 | ds2 | also the selector on mouser is a bit weak |
| 21:36.40 | MonMotha | yes, Digi-Key does have better parametrics. They're wrong less often, too. |
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| 22:14.58 | *** part/#edev JohnnyL (i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 22:49.00 | ds2 | regulators work so much better if there is power connected to their input pins :S |
| 22:50.51 | solar | ds2: free beer on 1st and san pedro tonite for st.patties. I'll be the guy in green |
| 22:51.07 | ds2 | when is st patties? |
| 22:51.13 | solar | today |
| 22:52.05 | ds2 | I am so buried at the moment, there are more light coming out of a black hole then I can see |
| 22:52.45 | solar | yeah. I did not figure you would make it out. Was more of a joke saying I'm in green (like that makes it eaiser to find anybody) |
| 22:53.12 | ds2 | I am from Chicago; the river goes green on StPatties |
| 22:53.15 | ds2 | so... |
| 22:56.48 | Crofton|work | all that flourescein in the beer |
| 23:40.55 | *** join/#edev Dufflepod (i=Dufflepo@82-42-186-240.cable.ubr10.live.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 23:41.54 | *** part/#edev Dufflepod (i=Dufflepo@82-42-186-240.cable.ubr10.live.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 23:45.30 | adyer | ds2: the change in the river color is more dramatic these days, it used o be about the same shade of green all the time :-) |
| 23:46.12 | ds2 | heh |
| 23:46.16 | ds2 | adyer: you there now? |
| 23:46.23 | adyer | yep |
| 23:46.36 | ds2 | did the greenies protest making the river green ? |
| 23:47.16 | adyer | don't know, I didn;t see any news |
| 23:47.53 | adyer | ds2: am on the far n/w side, don't go downtown much |
| 23:48.04 | ds2 | ah smart |
| 23:48.24 | ds2 | are you up by rosemont or you still in the city? |
| 23:48.56 | adyer | ds2: in the city, devon & harlem & northwest hwy. |
| 23:49.19 | ds2 | That's near where American Science center is if you know that surplus place |
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| 23:50.00 | adyer | ds2: it's further than i'd like. good lunchtime browsing |
| 23:50.12 | ds2 | I see |
| 23:50.27 | ds2 | they used to have more stuff before they moved |
| 23:50.44 | adyer | you in SJC? |
| 23:50.50 | *** join/#edev Dufflepod (i=Dufflepo@82-42-186-240.cable.ubr10.live.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 23:51.06 | ds2 | yeah, unfortunately |
| 23:51.23 | adyer | I lived there for about 5 years |
| 23:51.29 | ds2 | why you leave? |
| 23:51.34 | adyer | wife |
| 23:51.41 | ds2 | powerful reason :D |
| 23:52.08 | ds2 | I want white castles and ricobenni @#$@#%$!#! |
| 23:52.15 | Dufflepod | Anyone ever had a problem with objcopy from binutils producing a zero length output file when converting an ARM elf32 to binary? |
| 23:52.52 | adyer | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:52.53 | Dufflepod | Damn thing's driving me mad |
| 23:53.06 | Dufflepod | lol - just my luck. |
| 23:54.16 | adyer | Dufflepod: try the -X option to objdump (I think thats the one) to list the sections in the elf file. I think it only converts certain ones by default |
| 23:54.43 | Dufflepod | I've tried just converting the ROM section using the -j option. No joy. |
| 23:55.50 | Dufflepod | I tried stripping it 1st too to get rid of all my local symbols. |