| 00:08.22 | g1powermac_PB | meh |
| 00:08.55 | g1powermac_PB | has been using macs for years as well, and even programmed for them, but never touched Obj-C |
| 00:09.18 | g1powermac_PB | tends to break out the portable gui tookits when needed |
| 00:21.52 | ds2 | prehaps you need to lookup objectionable C ;) |
| 00:22.04 | ds2 | I think it came from NeXT |
| 00:24.11 | g1powermac_PB | heh |
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| 07:24.40 | methril|work | yo |
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| 08:48.46 | florian | good morning |
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| 13:23.12 | Mirell | Greetings online one! |
| 13:36.00 | mnemoc | good morning happy Mirell :) |
| 13:48.24 | T0mW | morning |
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| 14:43.50 | chouimat|work | hi |
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| 14:52.03 | florian | hi chouimat|work |
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| 17:21.24 | fwk | does anyone have experience building proprietary linux applications? |
| 17:21.57 | kergoth | that's a pretty broad quesiton |
| 17:22.14 | kergoth | how you build something is completely dependent upon the buildsystem in question |
| 17:26.31 | fwk | correct. I'm assuming most people that have experience with this will have at some point had to secure the application. My question is: how can I make the app dependent on the build system so it cannot be ripped off and ran on something else? |
| 17:26.57 | T0mW | fwk: will the end-user have the source? |
| 17:27.42 | T0mW | fwk: Is this a mainstream linux app, or one that will run on an embedded system? |
| 17:28.16 | ds2 | good luck with that... |
| 17:32.50 | fwk | T0mW: it will be running on an embedded system |
| 17:33.17 | fwk | I thought about custom system calls etc. but anyone with a little knowledge would see that straight away |
| 17:33.43 | T0mW | fwk: then you have more control. You cannot completely copyprotect anything, you can only make it more expensive for them to unlock something than it is worth. |
| 17:33.54 | ds2 | they are all defeatable |
| 17:34.01 | T0mW | correct |
| 17:34.04 | ds2 | if you can't trust your customer, perhaps it is not worth taking their money |
| 17:34.28 | T0mW | You just have to make them jump higher bars to frustrate them and have them give up. |
| 17:35.36 | T0mW | fwk: one thing you could do is to embedded some code in the boot rom that is integral to the operation of your app. That could lock the app to a specific controller. |
| 17:37.18 | fwk | that's a good idea but at the moment I can't imagine how that's going to work |
| 17:37.38 | T0mW | You are really talking about security-through-obscurity where the less you talk about how you have done the locking with anyone outside of engineering, the more likely you can keep it working for you. |
| 17:37.49 | T0mW | fwk: exactly. |
| 17:37.58 | fwk | i see |
| 17:38.19 | T0mW | fwk: copy protection only works when you raise the bar so high (knowledge / skills) so that the other party is left lost. |
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| 17:39.37 | T0mW | IMO, if you raise the technological bar high enough, it will take a skilled programmer to defeat it. That will cost them money to get it defeated. |
| 17:39.59 | fwk | cost of hacking > potential gain by hacking :) |
| 17:41.25 | T0mW | that's it. |
| 17:41.46 | fwk | thanks for your thoughts, time for a little research |
| 17:41.55 | T0mW | sometimes something simple is better as they won't be expecting you do simple stuff. |
| 17:43.34 | T0mW | you might do a simple lock of the app (addsum when it starts of its code in ram computed against a MAC number of the ethernet), then lure them off with some complicated time waster that modifies parts of the executing code which has absolutely no bearing on the app itself (dead code). |
| 17:44.17 | T0mW | I've seen that done. Not on Linux, but older copylocked stuff (MSDOS daze) |
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| 17:49.01 | T0mW | fwk: another idea, a value which is stored in a Dallas memory device which the programs needs to run. Or a series of bytes, look at this device: http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS2502-UNW-DS2506S-UNW.pdf |
| 17:49.20 | fwk | ah I was just thinking about that, like an internal 'dongle' |
| 17:49.29 | T0mW | correct |
| 17:49.48 | T0mW | missing peices to a jump table would be in that dongle. |
| 17:50.44 | T0mW | you could let the app run in a crippled mode where most of the functionality is reduced because jumps to correct subroutines were not loaded. |
| 17:51.26 | T0mW | will take some planning, but, you should be able to frustrate most people. The key is how badly would they want to copy vs. what it would cost them to buy it from you? |
| 17:51.34 | T0mW | too expensive and you lose. |
| 17:53.04 | T0mW | fwk: think about what it would take for you to modify the code of an executable to replace missing bytes in a jump table and also disable the secure rom loader mechanism in your code. Make the secure rom an integral part of your program code. |
| 17:55.07 | T0mW | fwk: I have a low volume (< 200 units per year) that is considering putting everything onto an embedded Linux device. He does a lot of custom code for his customers, so, he needs to keep control over how many copies a distributer / installer puts out there. |
| 17:55.34 | T0mW | s/year)/year) customer/ |
| 17:56.55 | T0mW | he charges maybe $5K .. $15K a copy. |
| 18:03.04 | T0mW | fwk: think on this, what you want to do is to get the cracker into single step tracing your copylock using a debugger of some kind. |
| 18:03.23 | T0mW | :P |
| 18:04.36 | fwk | haha that's evil |
| 18:04.56 | fwk | ..and probably very effective |
| 18:11.52 | Mirell | I love buying hardware off Amazon and expensing it... |
| 18:12.04 | Mirell | Unfortunately, it's never anything I actually want.. |
| 18:13.07 | g1powermac_PB | is freikin addicted to amazon. . .especially with their $80 a year free two day shipping on anything deal |
| 18:13.18 | T0mW | fwk: do your unlock / validation in small steps (functions), sprinkle them through your code. |
| 18:18.24 | Mirell | g1powermac_PB: Yah. "Oh, $1.50 little item, sure!" |
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| 18:25.30 | g1powermac_PB | Mirell: hehe, its bad, I got more more books here than I can read in prolly a year |
| 18:26.35 | Mirell | g1powermac_PB: I still have my dad's collection. 2,500 paperbacks of mostly scifi or mystery... |
| 18:26.39 | Mirell | It's uh...going to take me a while. |
| 18:27.33 | g1powermac_PB | wow |
| 18:27.56 | g1powermac_PB | now if you had 2500 of nonfiction books, I'd be in my glory |
| 18:28.07 | g1powermac_PB | is a big nonfiction science reader |
| 18:29.22 | g1powermac_PB | not much of a fiction reader |
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| 18:31.49 | Mirell | Heh |
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| 20:00.23 | T0mW | heh, amusing |
| 20:00.32 | T0mW | is busy rebooting WinXP |
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