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| 06:40.59 | Mirell | Lord, the UPnP standard is a hack.. |
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| 06:46.46 | MonMotha | Mirell: no.... |
| 06:46.56 | MonMotha | then again, I think USB is a hack |
| 06:47.19 | ds2 | heh UPnP... legitimization of DoS |
| 06:48.01 | MonMotha | hey! I know! Let's let unauthenticated remote systems manipulate border router rules, device access, etc.! |
| 06:48.06 | MonMotha | how can this go wrong!? |
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| 06:48.32 | ds2 | isn't "open systems" the thing thesedays? :D |
| 06:54.15 | MonMotha | I guess I need to go pull the USB 3.0 spec and see how much of a hack it is |
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| 06:54.58 | MonMotha | I'm told it "resembles PCIe" for the "super speed" stuff. Perhaps they were intelligent and just standardized a connector and "user experience" for PCIe hotplug via cabling |
| 06:55.21 | MonMotha | ExpressCard seems to have been pretty successful by doing that for a card formfactor (and using USB as well) |
| 06:55.41 | MonMotha | heck, just put ExpressCard on a plug rather than a card and you might have a workable standard :) |
| 07:00.24 | ds2 | ExpressCard, USB, etc are all just making it harder to generalize things between embedded needs and desktop needs |
| 07:20.59 | methril|work | yo |
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| 07:33.57 | MonMotha | well, ExpressCard is just a modernization of PCMCIA, which has been around for ages |
| 07:34.13 | MonMotha | yes, it's not overly "embedded friendly", but it serves the need of PC users well |
| 07:34.27 | ds2 | except PCMCIA is a parallel bus that can be dropped on a NOR bus with a little bit of work |
| 07:34.33 | ds2 | try that with ExpressCard |
| 07:34.38 | MonMotha | same with USB. It's basically a (poor) modernization of the serial port. Unfortunately it's overly complicated. |
| 07:34.46 | MonMotha | yes, PCMCIA is somewhat "embedded friendly" |
| 07:34.52 | MonMotha | that's mostly an artifact of it being old |
| 07:35.39 | MonMotha | it's from the old "everything looks like SRAM" days |
| 07:36.09 | ds2 | this trend toward specialized serial signaling seems like a recipe for disaster |
| 07:36.19 | ds2 | piles and piles of waste |
| 07:38.00 | MonMotha | I do wish the industry would come up with "one serial signalling method to rule them all" |
| 07:38.11 | MonMotha | PCIe and SATA are already electrically very close |
| 07:38.26 | MonMotha | not software/on-wire protocol compatible at all, of course |
| 07:38.44 | MonMotha | USB solves a somewhat specialized problem, though it does it poorly |
| 07:39.08 | MonMotha | I'm not sure what the point of USB 3.0 is, though. The only real application for that kind of data rate is mass storage and uncompressed HD video |
| 07:39.48 | MonMotha | mass storage is better solved by eSATA (already available and widely implemented), and uncompressed HD video is 1) not overly prevalent, 2) not required by most consumer apps, and 3) already has its own standard (HD-SDI) |
| 07:40.27 | MonMotha | also, why not just dump IEEE1394 (which isn't as awful) onto a "dual standard" connector (since USB 3.0 already has connector changes) with USB 2.0 High-Speed and call it good? |
| 07:42.54 | ds2 | that would confuse things |
| 07:43.02 | ds2 | 1394 is peer to peer whereeas USB is master/slave |
| 07:43.16 | MonMotha | sure, so limit the "dual format" connector to master/slave applications |
| 07:43.24 | MonMotha | and of course USB has the hack of a hack that is OTG |
| 07:44.33 | ds2 | ah yes, that abomination |
| 07:45.51 | ds2 | actually, in that case, I would prefer they add in a RX/TX pair for the simpliest of all stuff |
| 07:46.09 | ds2 | or maybe even I2C or SPI....that would make for cheap mice and keyboard |
| 07:46.27 | ds2 | eliminate the bogusity of having all those HID stuff |
| 07:46.38 | MonMotha | so...you propose bringing back the RS-232 serial port but with power? |
| 07:46.44 | MonMotha | (not that I'd complain) |
| 07:46.48 | ds2 | yes |
| 07:47.01 | ds2 | lots of the simpliest devices can benefit |
| 07:47.04 | MonMotha | I have to give the USB HID standard credit. It's remarkably complete and not overly complicated. |
| 07:47.42 | ds2 | I'd say it is overly complicated... all that software and hardware just to transfer a few bytes that I could easily do with RS-232 or SPI or I2C or 1wire |
| 07:47.50 | MonMotha | you can describe just about any device that could be classified as a "HID" with the USB HID standard |
| 07:48.20 | MonMotha | I'm just talking about HID. The transport is mostly irrelevant to USB HID itself. |
| 07:48.31 | MonMotha | you can run HID over other mediums (such as Bluetooth) |
| 07:48.49 | ds2 | *nod* just overkill imo |
| 07:48.54 | MonMotha | USB HID allows for rather flexible devices (e.g. mice with tons of buttons, keyboards with oddball extra keys, etc.) without having to invent a new protocol every time |
| 07:49.14 | MonMotha | now, if you propose running USB HID over e.g. SPI, I'm onboard |
| 07:49.19 | MonMotha | perhaps even trim it down a bit |
| 07:49.31 | MonMotha | but the whole "usage descriptor" and "report" thing actually works pretty well |
| 07:49.36 | ds2 | i can compromise w/that |
| 07:49.55 | MonMotha | you'd also have to do some level shifting. LVTTL doesn't like long cables |
| 07:50.08 | MonMotha | perhaps do what Konami did in many of their arcade games and run SPI using RS-422 signals |
| 07:50.26 | ds2 | differential SPI |
| 07:50.31 | MonMotha | you can run that over commonly available CAT5 for kilometers |
| 07:50.45 | MonMotha | for shorter cables, it could be done reasonably cheaply |
| 07:50.54 | MonMotha | yup, pretty much |
| 07:51.10 | ds2 | yep... I really like the simplicity of SPI.... easy voltage conversion, easy xceivers unlike I2C |
| 07:51.19 | MonMotha | agreed |
| 07:51.29 | MonMotha | it's also easier to clock it faster since you can do push-pull drivers |
| 07:52.01 | MonMotha | I2C pretty much requires open-collector/open-drain, but SPI just requires that you be able to tri-state MISO on slave devices when not selected; you can run push-pull while actually driving the line |
| 07:52.12 | ds2 | and beyond that it is EASY to implement... a 74xx shift register and you mostly have it |
| 07:52.17 | MonMotha | yup |
| 07:52.24 | MonMotha | I think it's a 74xx595 |
| 07:52.28 | MonMotha | that IS SPI |
| 07:52.42 | MonMotha | fits on even a small PLD easily, too |
| 07:52.44 | ds2 | isn't that a friendly pinout of the 295? |
| 07:52.51 | MonMotha | perhaps |
| 07:52.56 | MonMotha | or maybe I'm thinking of the 295 |
| 07:53.08 | MonMotha | you would need to add some sort of discovery/enumeration scheme |
| 07:53.25 | MonMotha | but it doesn't have to be nearly as complicated as USB makes it |
| 07:53.27 | ds2 | the 5xx are usually pinout friend 2xx or 3xx devices |
| 07:53.32 | MonMotha | yes |
| 07:53.51 | ds2 | I have mix feelings about all the discovery crap |
| 07:54.10 | MonMotha | the discovery stuff is absolutely necessary for consumer usage |
| 07:54.24 | MonMotha | people expect to be able to plug it in wherever it fits and just have it work |
| 07:55.03 | ds2 | that's true if it works well |
| 07:55.03 | MonMotha | now, if you limit your proposed port to "HID only" and allow bussing or something (RS-485 based SPI using addressing, which I've been known to perpetrate), then you can make discovery simple |
| 07:55.13 | MonMotha | USB discovery actually works pretty well |
| 07:55.15 | MonMotha | it's UGLY, but it works |
| 07:55.23 | ds2 | what irks me is the abuse by mfgs |
| 07:55.31 | MonMotha | well yeah |
| 07:55.39 | ds2 | exact same silicon can have different ids for "marketing" reasons |
| 07:55.51 | MonMotha | the random devices that also show up as a keyboard and floppy drive in order to autorun some installation garbage on windows, for example |
| 07:56.18 | MonMotha | that said, I've also seen scanners that show up a mass storage and include drivers. That's kinda cool. |
| 07:56.57 | ds2 | I don't mind that too much...I just don't like attempts at vendor lockin |
| 07:56.59 | MonMotha | you can even use that on some HID devices that have "extras" that, while supported by HID, aren't normally "wired" to do anything on most OSes |
| 07:57.19 | MonMotha | give me the drivers to make the blinkenlights work, but still have it show up as a mouse, for example (so I don't have to use the drivers) |
| 07:57.47 | MonMotha | well, vendor lock-in is a fact of life. The vendors demand it |
| 07:58.12 | ds2 | That's fine until they decide to sell the same thing with 2 prices that are identical inside except for the vendor or product ids |
| 07:58.26 | MonMotha | so buy the cheaper version |
| 07:58.52 | ds2 | I see that a clear abuse of the ids |
| 07:59.04 | MonMotha | agreed, but I don't really care |
| 07:59.15 | MonMotha | I'll just go buy the cheaper version and be happy knowing that somebody else paid 2x for the same thing |
| 07:59.21 | MonMotha | basically they subsidized me |
| 07:59.41 | ds2 | until they purposely cripple the driver for the cheaper one |
| 08:00.04 | ds2 | there are times you can get more features in the Linux driver then teh Windows drivers just because of crap like this |
| 08:01.20 | MonMotha | I'm aware |
| 08:01.33 | MonMotha | and since I run Linux, that rarely affects me |
| 08:01.49 | MonMotha | and there's usually hacked up Windows drivers available (or heck, just change the .inf file and do it yourself) |
| 08:02.14 | MonMotha | the masses may be affected, but I frankly don't care |
| 08:02.46 | ds2 | *nod* just an irritation |
| 08:05.44 | MonMotha | well, yes |
| 08:05.53 | MonMotha | but I've come to expect constant irritation when using computers these days |
| 08:10.31 | ds2 | =) |
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| 08:17.00 | MonMotha | I do wish PCs would have some sort of "simple" interface, though |
| 08:17.08 | MonMotha | most modern PCs lack anything "simple" to talk to |
| 08:17.30 | MonMotha | no serial ports, no parallel ports, no MIDI port, no ISA bus, and PS/2 ports are getting harder to find |
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| 13:01.35 | Mirell | Heh |
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