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| 02:02.30 | ZeZu | roxfan: thanks! i found one or two as well, was wishfully looking to see if anyone had any experience and/or any preference on them |
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| 03:23.14 | monkey | hey prpplague ! |
| 03:25.53 | prpplague | hey |
| 03:28.29 | monkey | i was told to talk to you abotu openocd |
| 03:29.15 | monkey | landley help me get setup for an arm dev board for school |
| 03:35.12 | prpplague | ahh |
| 03:35.19 | prpplague | what kind of jtag device are you using? |
| 03:41.08 | monkey | umm, arm-usb-ocd thingie from olimex |
| 03:41.09 | monkey | hold on |
| 03:41.45 | monkey | it's an lpc2378 board with an arm7-tdmis |
| 03:46.50 | Mirell | waves at prpplague |
| 04:06.23 | monkey | waves at Mirell |
| 04:09.38 | Mirell | How goes |
| 04:14.09 | monkey | it's ok. |
| 04:14.11 | monkey | yourself? |
| 04:14.16 | monkey | i stayed home from work today, wasn't feeling good |
| 04:18.11 | Mirell | Ahh. |
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| 04:49.50 | *** mode/#edev [+o landley] by ChanServ |
| 04:50.05 | landley | waves at monkey |
| 04:58.19 | monkey | hey |
| 04:58.24 | monkey | sorry i'm getting ready for bed. |
| 04:58.37 | monkey | prpplague didn't sign on till 8:15 pm and sort of vanished |
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| 05:14.31 | landley | monkey: he might be having a busy day, try again tomorrow. :) |
| 05:14.35 | landley | When's your assignment due? |
| 05:19.44 | monkey | yesterday, but he doesn't need verification of the setup, just something like a screen shot, hex file or something like that |
| 05:20.04 | monkey | i have a new programmign assignment, which he hasn't posted the specifics of. comparing memory performance or something like that |
| 05:20.07 | landley | Well, you did get it to compile. Getting it to install is another matter... |
| 05:20.16 | landley | In theory, you could boot it under qemu. |
| 05:20.29 | landley | That doesn't take anything special to install. Just feed it in as a rom image or some such with -L. |
| 05:20.55 | landley | I note there's a #qemu on here that might help with that. |
| 05:21.02 | monkey | hehe, ok :) |
| 05:21.06 | landley | Won't help with benchmarking, though. That you need real hardware for... |
| 05:21.10 | monkey | yeah |
| 05:21.14 | landley | The emulator's numbers will be mondo wonky... |
| 05:21.22 | monkey | yay for wonky |
| 05:21.35 | monkey | he still hasn't posted the homework assignment, i wonder what gives |
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| 05:22.15 | monkey | he even said it would be tough and to start it early |
| 05:22.43 | landley | shrugs. |
| 05:23.09 | landley | Hopefully prpplague will be on tomorrow. I might be on more of a day schedule tomorrow, today I got somewhat whelmed. |
| 05:23.14 | landley | (Not quite overwhelmed, more laterally whelmed.) |
| 05:23.21 | monkey | ha |
| 05:23.28 | landley | On top of what I was supposed to be doing, it just wasn't programming stuff. |
| 05:24.01 | landley | Fetching my car from the mechanic, running errands I couldn't do the past week without a car, meeting friends for a get together, that sort of thing. |
| 05:25.27 | monkey | ha. admit it. you don't have a life ;) |
| 05:25.59 | landley | If I didn't have at least a subset of a life, I'd have noticeably more time for programming. |
| 05:26.19 | landley | Although most of what I've had this past week has been "a cold". |
| 05:26.19 | monkey | what would you be programming? |
| 05:26.26 | landley | http://landley.net/code/firmware |
| 05:26.49 | monkey | oh yeah, that's right, lol |
| 05:26.55 | landley | And maybe toybox and tinycc and qemu weekly news and a hello world Linux kernel and all the other "on hold" projects. |
| 05:29.05 | monkey | hehe |
| 05:31.30 | monkey | i have a robot i need to finish |
| 05:32.07 | landley | Good luck. |
| 05:32.13 | monkey | haha |
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| 06:37.25 | solar | landle: get online more often |
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| 09:29.18 | GammaX | Hello all, Im wondering if anyone can put me in the right direction of an intro to embedded linux. Ive been workin up a design in my head and id like to start making headway on it. |
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| 09:46.41 | MonMotha | GammaX: what in general do you have in mind? There are lots of resources, but, depending on what you want to do, some may be more relevant than others. |
| 09:46.57 | GammaX | MonMotha, can I pm you? |
| 09:47.41 | MonMotha | GammaX: I'd prefer you keep it in the channel |
| 09:47.41 | MonMotha | not a lot of noise in here right now, anyway |
| 09:48.30 | GammaX | ok, Im trying to start the dev of a device wich will allow forensic imaging of electronic media |
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| 09:49.23 | GammaX | Like a standalone unit wich right blocks the pata,sata, usb and so on ports, then takes the image and puts it onto another hdd as an image. |
| 09:50.13 | MonMotha | ok |
| 09:50.42 | MonMotha | are you intending to use an off-the-shelf hardware platform for this? |
| 09:50.49 | GammaX | prefferably not... |
| 09:51.02 | MonMotha | so you will be developing custom hardware? |
| 09:51.11 | GammaX | thats the plan... |
| 09:51.31 | GammaX | Maby outsource to taiwan or something |
| 09:51.55 | MonMotha | best place to start is probably grab a well-supported and easily hacked consumer device or similar off-the-shelf platform in order to familiarize yourself with embedded linux if you haven't done much before. |
| 09:52.35 | MonMotha | Generally getting Linux on a custom board requires at least a little kernel hackery and lots of configuration that will be mostly done for you on supported targets. That already completed work can ease the pain of getting started. |
| 09:52.56 | MonMotha | the elinux.org wiki has some info. Look into OpenEmbedded or buildroot to build yourself a base system |
| 09:53.12 | GammaX | ok |
| 09:53.25 | GammaX | any tips on wich proc to use? |
| 09:53.39 | MonMotha | The hardware development is generally beyond the scope of those materials. In general, pick a CPU that's already supported and add peripherals that are already supported or that you feel comfortable writing drivers for. |
| 09:54.33 | GammaX | Ok. I have been trying to find a dev kit wich has a usb,ide,and sata port on it but have found none yet. |
| 09:54.42 | MonMotha | For this, you'll probably want something with a PCI or PCIe bus or built in SATA. Freescale has some ARMs with built in SATA (I think). An Intel Atom might also work well. There are some prebuilt computer-on-module options if you're talking single thousand volume. |
| 09:55.14 | MonMotha | PATA is generally supported-ish on systems with external busses, which is most "big" ARM CPUs. |
| 09:55.49 | MonMotha | USB is prevalent on all SoC level ARMs and many other archs as well. Most include both device and host. |
| 09:56.14 | GammaX | built in sata and ide will be very important. |
| 09:57.05 | MonMotha | you may have to add SATA using PCI or PCIe. Not a big deal, but many SoC style procs don't have PCI or PCIe. |
| 09:57.21 | GammaX | This is going to be generally a pass through device to block any write commands to any device. |
| 09:57.24 | MonMotha | IDE may also have to be added via similar means, depending on your CPU choice. |
| 09:57.50 | MonMotha | so you want this to function as both a host or a device from a SATA or IDE point of view? |
| 09:57.53 | MonMotha | that's...harder |
| 09:57.59 | GammaX | hrmm.. theres so many diff cpu's! |
| 09:58.08 | MonMotha | yes, there are lots of CPUs to choose from |
| 09:58.40 | MonMotha | I've worked with a lot of Atmel's offerings, but they don't sound suitable for this. I've used some system-on-module Atom based stuff. Might work for you. |
| 09:59.09 | MonMotha | I looked into the Freescale i.MX stuff for a project. They looked neat. Marvell also has all sorts of stuff, but be prepared to sacrifice your first-born to get a datasheet. |
| 09:59.24 | MonMotha | I don't know that any of the TI stuff can do what you want. |
| 09:59.25 | GammaX | hmmm, lots to think about.... |
| 10:00.26 | GammaX | Basicly read the commands coming from a computer and block all the write commands... |
| 10:00.42 | MonMotha | actually, an FPGA might be what you want for this |
| 10:00.56 | MonMotha | if you want to basically "pass through" stuff directly but filter the commands |
| 10:01.09 | MonMotha | no need for Linux or even a big-honkin' CPU |
| 10:01.25 | MonMotha | small micro (soft core) or even a state machine sounds like it might do the trick |
| 10:01.58 | GammaX | well thats the one part of it... the other will be a standalone section that can image the electronic media... while also being right blocked. |
| 10:02.06 | MonMotha | I'm not aware of any trivial ways to make any of these SoCs act as a SATA or PATA device, only host. |
| 10:02.18 | GammaX | It will have to have some type of user interface, |
| 10:02.42 | MonMotha | well, it's an interesting idea. I don't have any good leads from a hardware POV, though. |
| 10:02.50 | MonMotha | this isn't something I've ever needed to do |
| 10:04.04 | GammaX | hrmmm, ever here of a tornado cpu? might be an fpga |
| 10:04.16 | MonMotha | that sounds like an Altera FPGA product |
| 10:05.21 | MonMotha | I think you could do this pretty cleanly using an FPGA with embedded CPU, but it would be a fair bit of dev work |
| 10:05.26 | GammaX | Correct! Theres a similar device wich came out a few years ago wich after inspection, has that chip in it. |
| 10:06.00 | MonMotha | that route sounds like more dev work than you're probably prepared for, no offense |
| 10:06.03 | GammaX | MonMotha, If I can get my feet wet I can outsource it and then pick up future dev from where they left off.... |
| 10:07.22 | MonMotha | well, there are lots of FPGAs out there with embedded "hard" CPU cores (mostly PowerPC). You'd use the SERDES to do SATA (and could do both device and host), USB can probably be done with a little work of a standard I/O pair, PATA would be standard I/O. Add some RAM and whatever you need for an interface, and you've mostly got the hardware. |
| 10:07.31 | MonMotha | the FPGA development, however, would be a chore |
| 10:08.10 | MonMotha | I'm a fan of Xilinx's hardware. A Virtex 5 or 6 should work for this. You could also use a Spartan 6 paired with a small CPU to handle your interface. |
| 10:08.24 | GammaX | ok... |
| 10:08.33 | GammaX | im lookin for dev kits now. |
| 10:08.35 | MonMotha | I'm told Altera's stuff is pretty good, but I've not used it. Lattice's dev software was trash the last time I tried it, but that was almost 4 years ago. |
| 10:08.46 | MonMotha | you can get cheapish dev kits for Xilinx stuff at www.digilentinc.com |
| 10:09.01 | MonMotha | but like I said, this is a very non-trivial amount of work |
| 10:09.21 | MonMotha | you have the PCB/system level stuff, the FPGA level stuff, and then the software that runs on the CPU |
| 10:09.40 | MonMotha | and none of that is going to be "simple" |
| 10:10.39 | GammaX | I agree. My main goal is to come up with the working idea on paper, talk to a few electrical engineers, and go from there. |
| 10:10.48 | MonMotha | I see |
| 10:10.56 | MonMotha | well, you're talking to one of those, here :) |
| 10:11.53 | GammaX | Haha, Very true! How much does something like that run? |
| 10:12.35 | MonMotha | I'm not sure that the design of this is something you'll be able to easily outsource to Asia. There are certainly places over there capable of it, but I don't think they're much cheaper than the states or Europe (dunno where you are). Asia is mostly cheaper on production and copy/paste development stuff. |
| 10:13.00 | MonMotha | A full FPGA design? Dunno. Depends on your contract shop, of course |
| 10:13.09 | GammaX | Im in iraq... haha |
| 10:13.17 | MonMotha | probably low to mid-low 6 figures + materials |
| 10:13.22 | MonMotha | USD |
| 10:13.41 | GammaX | 6 thousand correct? |
| 10:13.50 | GammaX | wow... wait just read that |
| 10:13.54 | MonMotha | maybe upper 5 figures at a cheap shop with lots of FPGA experience that can do it cheaply |
| 10:13.58 | MonMotha | s/cheaply/quickly |
| 10:14.12 | MonMotha | 100,000+ |
| 10:14.13 | GammaX | wow... Thats alot of money haha. |
| 10:14.15 | MonMotha | yes |
| 10:14.26 | MonMotha | contract engineering isn't cheap |
| 10:15.19 | MonMotha | and that's just the electrical design. If you want an enclosure, add some on for that. |
| 10:15.55 | MonMotha | This also sounds like a device that would be used by law enforcement. I'm not familiar with the certifications required for such a device, but I can't imagine that getting them or even meeting the requirements is cheap. |
| 10:16.37 | GammaX | Correct. The certs I can take care of faily easily. |
| 10:17.27 | MonMotha | You may also have some issues with being in Iraq. I'm not sure what the status of US export regulations is to Iraq at this point, but in the past that would have made US based work almost impossible for a device like you're talking. |
| 10:18.57 | MonMotha | it is entirely possible that someone has some silicon out there that does almost exactly what you ask. Lots of the smaller Chinese shops have some pretty crazy product catalogs, but finding out about them outside of China can be almost impossible. |
| 10:19.02 | MonMotha | sounds like you have some research to do |
| 10:19.09 | GammaX | Sorry I shoulda clarrified, Im american, just currently in Iraq. |
| 10:19.23 | MonMotha | ah, may make things easier if you want stateside development, then |
| 10:20.26 | GammaX | I wish I had friends that were electrical engineers haha |
| 10:21.13 | MonMotha | well, I know a few product development shops in the USA that may be capable of this, but again, it won't be cheap. |
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| 10:21.45 | GammaX | thats the problem... Id be a single entity going in on this and I honestly dont have that much to spend... |
| 10:22.11 | MonMotha | in this environment, some shops will probably want to see proof of funds up front or may even require a percentage down |
| 10:22.36 | MonMotha | but you could float some RFPs out and see what you get back |
| 10:22.55 | MonMotha | that doesn't generally cost any cash, just time on your part |
| 10:23.26 | MonMotha | Just don't overestimate your volume. That generally leads to bad decisions. |
| 10:23.39 | MonMotha | make sure you do your market research early |
| 10:24.05 | GammaX | Gotcha |
| 10:24.52 | MonMotha | anyway, it's 6AM here, and I want to go to sleep |
| 10:25.04 | MonMotha | jeesh, it's 6:30... |
| 10:25.32 | GammaX | haha thanks for the help |
| 10:25.35 | GammaX | I appreciate it. |
| 10:25.48 | MonMotha | no problem |
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| 12:22.10 | GammaX | Anyone know a Embedded system design company in perse china? |
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| 12:50.54 | chouimat | morning |
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| 14:05.54 | adyer | morning. A fine morning when there's 16 windows updates :-( |
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| 14:25.53 | Mirell | *yawn* |
| 14:44.12 | chouimat | hi Mirell |
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| 15:37.36 | Mirell | Huzzah, in-person interview scheduled. |
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| 15:42.17 | chouimat | Mirell: congrats :) |
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| 15:45.09 | Mirell | chouimat: Thanks! Finally, after endless phone interviews |
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| 16:07.29 | Mirell | whacks prpplague |
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| 16:17.02 | prpplague | ouch |
| 16:17.08 | prpplague | Mirell: what's cookin? |
| 16:17.18 | prpplague | Mirell: interview eh? |
| 16:17.51 | prpplague | Mirell: i didn't know they interviewed for janitorial jobs |
| 16:17.55 | prpplague | jokes with Mirell |
| 16:18.55 | chouimat | 75 minutes on the phone to get 1 number so I can get my package |
| 16:19.04 | prpplague | doh |
| 16:20.15 | chouimat | prpplague: last week, while we had a nice power outage in the building canadapost tried to deliver a package, it's ok but I never got the card that give me the number to retrieve the package |
| 16:22.09 | chouimat | prpplague: any thing interesting in your part of the world? |
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| 16:39.47 | kergoth | prpplague: How is Christmas like a day at the office? You do all the work, and the fat guy in the suit gets all the credit. (courtesy 'fortune') :) |
| 16:39.53 | kergoth | was amused |
| 16:40.28 | mnemoc | :D |
| 16:44.46 | prpplague | kergoth: hehe |
| 16:45.04 | prpplague | kergoth: well, seeing how i am now a one man show, i get the credit and the blame |
| 16:45.15 | prpplague | chouimat: just started on a large contract on monday |
| 16:45.24 | chouimat | prpplague: nice |
| 16:45.24 | prpplague | chouimat: already working like crazy on it |
| 16:45.46 | Mirell | Hmm.. |
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| 16:46.09 | mnemoc | what is it about? (if it's not classified) |
| 16:46.21 | chouimat | prpplague: at least you have something to do ... I'm bored writing this stupid business plan |
| 16:46.28 | prpplague | mnemoc: can't say sorry |
| 16:46.33 | mnemoc | np |
| 16:46.46 | mnemoc | prpplague: but great success! |
| 16:46.51 | prpplague | mnemoc: thanks |
| 16:51.41 | chouimat | prpplague: have fun and good luck |
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| 17:07.10 | wmat | prpplague: you landed a large contract already? congrats! |
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| 17:08.26 | kazaa_lite | hi all |
| 17:09.17 | kazaa_lite | i have a linux application that uses posix thread and i want to port it to a system running embedded linux.....based on busy box |
| 17:09.49 | kazaa_lite | so should i need to use some other functions than malloc() and pthread_create()? |
| 17:09.57 | kazaa_lite | its just a user mode application |
| 17:10.18 | kergoth | it's likely no different than desktop, unless you're on a mmu-less target |
| 17:10.41 | kazaa_lite | luckily it has mmu support:) |
| 17:11.06 | kazaa_lite | so it should be fairly simple to port user mode application:D |
| 17:11.25 | kazaa_lite | can i link against glibc? |
| 17:13.53 | prpplague | wmat: yea, techincally it is my 6th contract since i've been in business |
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| 17:16.02 | wmat | prpplague: oh, so you've been in business prior to leaving your last job then? |
| 17:16.45 | prpplague | wmat: no, since august 24th |
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| 17:16.56 | wmat | wow, you're doing well then |
| 17:18.23 | prpplague | wmat: we'll see, the marketing(and sales as landley would remind me) is the most problematic portion of the whole thing |
| 17:18.42 | wmat | no doubt |
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| 23:10.10 | GammaX | Anyone know of any chinese embedded electrical designers? |
| 23:12.54 | theDarkAura | why chinese? |
| 23:22.55 | GammaX | theDarkAura, I have been told it is much cheaper. |
| 23:32.25 | MonMotha | quality engineering seems to cost as much or more in China than anywhere else |
| 23:32.34 | MonMotha | copy/paste "engineering" can be cheaper, yes |
| 23:32.56 | MonMotha | production is what is really cheap in China |
| 23:36.18 | GammaX | MonMotha, idk... I looked it up and there was places saying possibly hiring a place for 300 a month? |
| 23:37.27 | MonMotha | I can't imagine you'll get anything usable for that price |
| 23:38.16 | MonMotha | most of those budget shops are really about cloning reference designs and maybe doing some formfactor tweaks |
| 23:38.32 | MonMotha | sometimes useful, but hardly what you need |
| 23:39.14 | MonMotha | in general, make sure you get references for any engineering shop, but that seems to especially hold true in China/Taiwan and to an extent Singapore |
| 23:39.36 | MonMotha | there are quality shops, but there are also a lot of places that promise the world at rock bottom prices but fail to deliver basically anythig |
| 23:39.42 | MonMotha | that's true in general of outsourcing, though |
| 23:40.11 | MonMotha | helps if you speak Chinese, too |
| 23:40.29 | GammaX | hrmmm |
| 23:40.31 | GammaX | nope lol |
| 23:40.58 | MonMotha | neither do I |
| 23:41.11 | MonMotha | this is just from experience with people who have done a lot of China outsourcing |
| 23:41.44 | MonMotha | You really have to hunt for a reputable place. They're out there, but they're amongst a sea of sometimes pretty shady outfits. |
| 23:42.50 | GammaX | hrmmm |
| 23:42.55 | GammaX | Got any referances? haha |
| 23:43.48 | MonMotha | not really |
| 23:44.00 | MonMotha | certainly not for engineering |
| 23:44.44 | MonMotha | all my experience with this has been as a US based engineer, so people are looking to US engineering and possibly outsourcing production to elsewhere |
| 23:45.31 | GammaX | hmmm This is the hard part. |
| 23:45.41 | GammaX | I just dont have over 100K to invest currently |
| 23:46.06 | MonMotha | The NRE costs are basically related to design complexity. If you can make your design simpler, the NRE will go down. |
| 23:55.48 | GammaX | MonMotha, What would I google for what im lookin for in either india or china? |
| 23:59.21 | MonMotha | no idea |
| 23:59.30 | MonMotha | I've never attempted to find engineering shops like that |