IRC log for #edev on 20091030

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00:25.08f1ybackshame I have to go thru hurdles to do you punks a favor
00:25.10f1ybackhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-10-Fisher-Price-Pixter-Systems-with-6-Cartridges_W0QQitemZ120485167376QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d79c110
00:35.43MirellUh, Thanks?
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14:26.24kazaa_litehi all
14:26.55kazaa_liteis there something unique in PCI configuration header with the help of which i could identify a specific device?
14:27.24kazaa_litei mean i need something like MAC address which is sure to be unique for even same type of cards from same vendor
14:28.22kazaa_liteis product id in pci config header unique for every card?
14:28.33kazaa_litefrom the same vendor
14:29.14gustavozno
14:29.34gustavozvendor id = manufacturer, product id = the product itself (not serial number)
14:30.01gustavozif some pci cards have a serial number it's up to the manufacturer implemented in a vendor-specific way
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15:35.22prpplagueT0mW: greetings
15:35.35T0mWprpplague: hey, morning.
15:36.14T0mWprpplague: just doing my morning reading off the net before I dive into a day of perl.
15:36.26prpplagueT0mW: hey, for future reference, you  be interested in doing some pcb layout work for me? i'd have the schematic done, just need the layout portion
15:37.10T0mWprpplague: yeah, I can do that.  As long as it is acceptable to use Eagle.  Not interested in learing a new package right now.
15:37.36prpplagueT0mW: yea eagle is fine
15:37.49prpplagueT0mW:  what kind of $$ ?
15:39.17T0mWprpplague: It would depend on the job complexity really.  case-by-case.  I know some board layout guys would charge X amount per pin, but they also autorouted the boards.  I don't use an autorouter.
15:39.32T0mWautorouters don't make "pretty" layouts.
15:39.34prpplagueT0mW: yea i figured you'd charge by the hour
15:39.47T0mWprpplague: no, per job, flat rate.
15:40.06prpplagueT0mW: ahh
15:41.49T0mWprpplague: I find that most people are comfortable with a flat rate, some want hourly as they think they are going save tons of money.  but then, some of those people question everything you do.  heh, as you are hourly with those people, I can always stop working for them without delivering anything.  :)
15:42.29prpplagueT0mW: hmm, you have any info on doing proper netlist generation from orcad to eagle?
15:42.40T0mWprpplague: other jobs MUST be hourly, such as the case where the customer is nebulous about the spec, or it is difficult to predict just how much effort the work will take.
15:43.48T0mWah, there was an output format for orcad that I used to import into tango, at one time.  Eagle, unfortunately, uses binary files.
15:44.20T0mWI really don't know, never looked into that before.
15:44.29prpplagueT0mW: uh eagle doesn't support import of a netlist?
15:44.42T0mWlike I said, never looked.
15:45.35prpplaguehmm
15:46.12T0mWat one time, I did take a look at importing some of my old orcad layouts into  eagle, many, many years ago.  But, gave up as orcad exported in DXF and electrical info was lost in the DXF.  I think that there is a new electronic data exchange format now?
15:46.32T0mWEDIF ?
15:46.45T0mWElectronic Data Interchange Format
15:47.14T0mWprpplague: my mindset is perl today
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16:14.29T0mWprpplague: yeah, problem with mixing packages (e.g. Orcad schematic + Eagle layout) is the loss of backannotate.  backanno is useful when you do pin swapping, such as swapping pins around on a buffer chip or resistor pack to facilitate easier layout.
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16:14.49prpplagueT0mW: yea
16:15.05prpplagueT0mW: that works fine between orcad and pads
16:15.19prpplagueT0mW: MonMotha  is getting a copy of altium designer
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16:18.41T0mWprpplague: what would that do?  I took a look at their website, but it reads like a bunch of buzzwords in the featureset rather than give concrete examples of advantages.
16:19.08prpplagueT0mW: yea i got that feeling as well
16:19.16prpplagueT0mW: capture+layout
16:19.30prpplagueT0mW: iirc MonMotha said $4k for the works
16:20.05T0mWcapture+layout+(auto)cad+sketchup(3d)+gerber+partslist, ooo! oh! it does it ALL!
16:20.07T0mWheh
16:20.21T0mWprpplague: not a bad price.
16:20.55prpplagueT0mW: yea, which is why i was considering it
16:21.01T0mWprpplague: if it is worthy.  I paid $2700 for my BDI2000 JTAG unit, it was worth it.
16:21.32prpplagueT0mW: well i have a second hand copy of pads and i'm not interested in pay $10k for a new copy
16:21.51prpplagueT0mW: and eagle+me doesn't seem to work, eagle just doesn't feel intuitive to me
16:22.09T0mWprpplague: I've found that I have to fold money back into my business and many times that money does not get spent on technologies that I can use.  For example the Sharp Zoom dev kits...
16:22.47prpplagueT0mW: yea, i try to keep those types of items pretty low or something i can reuse/resale
16:23.21T0mWShannon is an example, but I learned a lot from that thing. mostly a confidence builder for me.
16:26.01T0mWprpplague: I built a kernel driver which uses the IDE port as a 16bit i/o into this target unit I'm building code for.  I have 2 output ports and one input port.  By doing this, I can speed my software dev as I won't have to download test code into the ARM processor, just let the computer take control of the i/o in the target.  That I learned as a result of Shannon.
16:26.40T0mWgoes back to perl
16:29.58prpplagueT0mW: yea i remember the ide port
16:30.11prpplagueT0mW: i too enjoyed the shannon, lots of learning
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16:46.00SpeedEvilDoes anyone have any suggestions for BGA stuff for prototyping? I mean for soldering practice.
16:46.53T0mWSpeedEvil: only thing that I ever found for do-it-yourself has been Zephyrtronics
16:47.23T0mWhttp://www.zeph.com/
16:47.32prpplagueSpeedEvil: i like ironweed, but it's expensive
16:47.36T0mWSpeedEvil: not cheap
16:47.46T0mWprpplague: url?
16:49.27prpplaguehttp://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/
16:49.39SpeedEviloops
16:49.41SpeedEvilsorry.
16:49.44SpeedEvilI mean BGA parts.
16:49.49SpeedEvilNot equipment.
16:50.36prpplagueSpeedEvil: ??
16:50.40prpplagueSpeedEvil: what do you mean?
16:51.09prpplagueSpeedEvil: you want some dead chips to solder on?
16:51.15SpeedEvilyes.
16:51.26prpplagueSpeedEvil: ahh
16:51.34SpeedEvilIdeally ones that I don't need to reball.
16:51.59SpeedEvilI was just wondering if there was a vendor you'd seen for this sort of stuff.
16:52.01prpplagueSpeedEvil: i'm sure you can get surplus stuff from places like allelectronics, electronics goldmine, bgmicro
16:52.05SpeedEvilebay isn't turning up stuff.
16:52.16SpeedEvilI haven't seen much if any BGA at silly prices though.
16:52.35SpeedEvilI haven't checked bgmicro et al, tat's a good thought.
16:53.02prpplagueSpeedEvil: also try halted.com
16:53.20SpeedEvilI want to try making a point-point wiring thing that can do BGA
16:53.36SpeedEvilwhich is probably silly, but why not.
16:54.06prpplagueconsiders going to lunch today
16:55.01T0mWAFAIK, the main problem with soldering BGA is getting heat under the device to melt the inner solder balls.
16:55.17SpeedEvilnot quite.
16:55.22T0mWSpeedEvil: how you planning on doing it?
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16:56.01SpeedEvilImagine a thing that applies a tinned fluxed enamelled wire to the top of a BGA ball, then reflows it with laser.
16:56.06T0mWI do surface mount here but TSSOP is about as high-tech a package as I have attempted.
16:56.44T0mWSpeedEvil: ok, "dead-bug" style.
16:56.55SpeedEvilT0mW: pretty much.
16:57.39T0mWSpeedEvil: just curious, how many mW laser?
16:58.04SpeedEvilT0mW: Unsure - not sure if laser is the way to go, or a tiny 'iron'
16:58.17SpeedEvilI suspect a couple of watts would be plenty though
16:58.25T0mWyes
16:58.30SpeedEvil(based on some probably naieve calculations)
17:00.26T0mWwell, the price on that Zephyrtronics stuff has come down a lot.  A complete BGA setup used to cost over $12K, now it is down around $6K
17:01.30T0mWSpeedEvil: I know that usually hot-nitrogen is used for BGA, rather than use an IR reflow, it is a hot gas reflow.
17:02.21SpeedEvilT0mW: yes - soldering onto a PCB is 'easy' - I'm not using a PCB
17:02.59SpeedEvilOr rather - I'm not using a signal PCB
17:03.21T0mWproblems that I've had with the Zephyr hot air unit for SMD is that it uses a jet of hot air (hot air pencil) and tends to "blow" the parts around.  You are constantly aware of the force of the air jet.
17:03.26MonMothaT0mW: Designer comes highly recommended by me.  It's amazing what that thing does for the price.
17:03.42MonMothabeats the pants off of the OrCAD/PADS combo most people use at < 1/5th the price
17:04.27T0mWI just use an IR reflow now, toaster oven.  But, I'm pretty sure that won't work for BGA as the 185C temp needed for reflow would probably cook the silicon before the solder flows.
17:04.43MonMothaschematic, layout, 3D/MCAD integration, simulation, assembly variant management, and now even some supplier data management (that I haven't gotten to play with)
17:05.11T0mWMonMotha: yeah, I don't do all that many boards so something like Eagle works for me.
17:05.16MonMothaah
17:05.25MonMothathe 3D is really handy when you have strange mechanical requirements
17:05.32SpeedEvilT0mW: works fine. I'm not avoiding PCBs for that reason, but for rapid prototyping reasons.
17:05.43*** join/#edev Redhatter (n=vk4msl@2001:388:f000:0:0:0:0:71)
17:05.56T0mWSpeedEvil: what works fine?  IR works with BGA?
17:06.14SpeedEvilReflow ovens work fine for BGA
17:06.34T0mWinteresting, how / what do you use for reball?
17:06.59T0mWor, do you only have to reball if you remove the part and re-use it?
17:07.05SpeedEvilT0mW: I mean for original manufacture
17:07.12T0mWyeah
17:07.14T0mWok
17:07.14SpeedEvilT0mW: you only need to reball if you remove the part
17:07.18T0mWah
17:08.03T0mWSpeedEvil: do you have to paste the pads of the BGA on the PCB, or just make sure that the pads are clean and the balls have enough flux to do the job?
17:08.14T0mWs/paste/screen
17:08.28MonMothawell, and the layout editor itself is actually really good
17:08.35MonMothaanyway, I'm going to get lunch
17:08.46SpeedEvilT0mW: as I understand it, stenciled on paste is recommended - but I haven't really looked.
17:08.54T0mWok
17:09.17T0mWI should just do a couple of simple test boards to see.
17:10.18T0mWheh, and get a new jar of paste.  The jar I have is about 5 years old and didn't work all that well on that most recent board I did.
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20:52.38prpplague~seen robotguy
20:52.41purlrobotguy <n=n7pkt@pool-173-50-247-236.ptldor.fios.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #edev, 2d 23h 36m 58s ago, saying: 'OE is symlink friendly though, so I just moved a few dirs elsewhere and symlinked them inside tmp. :)'.
20:58.59MirellHmm...
21:04.57*** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@66-162-99-237.static.twtelecom.net)
21:05.23prpplagueCosmicPenguin: hey bud, you snowed in?
21:06.28CosmicPenguinHeck no
21:06.33CosmicPenguinI'm a native, dammit
21:06.38prpplaguehehe
21:11.44CosmicPenguinvery nice storm
21:11.53CosmicPenguinit was beautiful last night leaving work - it looked like christmas
21:13.46MirellCosmicPenguin: You know about fancy pre-IPO stock?
21:14.27CosmicPenguinI don't own any, if thats what you are asking
21:15.05CosmicPenguinEvery single company I've ever worked for has been at their higest stock price when i joined
21:15.12MirellAhh.
21:15.16CosmicPenguinI've driven them all down, and I'm doing pretty good with QCOM too
21:15.21Mirellprpplague thought you might.
21:15.27Croftonnotes to short qualcomm
21:15.32prpplaguehehe
21:15.44CosmicPenguinActually, they do fine until I buy into the ESPP
21:15.47CosmicPenguinthats usually the plan
21:16.14prpplagueMirell: CosmicPenguin is the only nerd i know that seems to know his way about financies, so that was the reason i pointed to him
21:16.36MirellAh.
21:16.36CosmicPenguinMirell: whats your question?
21:16.59MirellCosmicPenguin: Is 30,000 pre-IPO stock good/bad/meh.
21:17.35CosmicPenguinImmediate vesting?
21:18.09MirellFully vested in four years working at the company.
21:18.21CosmicPenguinAnd the strike price will be whatever you IPO at?
21:18.33MirellI don't know what a strike price is.
21:18.40CosmicPenguinAre the options or actual shares?
21:18.44CosmicPenguins/the/they/
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21:19.26MirellOh.
21:19.31MirellThey're shares.
21:19.35MirellI just now noticed that.
21:19.35CosmicPenguinoh, okay
21:19.38CosmicPenguinso - thats good
21:20.01CosmicPenguinEsentially, you get shares for esentially free and you can sell them at whatever price you have when you vest
21:20.33CosmicPenguinKeeping in mind I'm not a financial planner
21:20.38MirellNice, thanks for making me actually bother to look closer.
21:20.38MirellYah.
21:20.49CosmicPenguinThere are usually rules about how long you have to wait to sell after an IPO
21:20.54MirellBut 30,000 free shares, woohoo
21:21.27CosmicPenguinIf they are free - you might want to check
21:21.41MirellAh, Market Stand-Off shall not exceed 180 days
21:22.30CosmicPenguinThats not terrible
21:23.20CosmicPenguinThats a good offer - i hope the IPO goes well
21:23.30MirellYah, no idea when that'll be.
21:23.53MirellBut they're also paying me decently, so it's just a "COME ON $50 IPO" bonus/wish.
21:25.05CosmicPenguinYep - thats how all the geeks made their money back in the 90s
21:25.18CosmicPenguinjoin a startup, work your ass off, sell, sell, sell
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21:54.21MirellNice, XBMC on the Beagle
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22:02.12CosmicPenguinBTW - in case you happen to be bored out of your skulls on Sunday
22:02.57CosmicPenguinFood Network, 8:00 EST - Food Network Challenge featuring Simpsons Cakes - you might recognize a familiar name... :)
22:03.15prpplagueoh?
22:03.17prpplaguedo tell
22:05.37prpplagueCosmicPenguin: who?
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23:13.32*** join/#edev lyakh_ (n=lyakh@p57BD22B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:51.04*** join/#edev dieter_ (n=dieter@dslb-088-065-206-245.pools.arcor-ip.net)

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