IRC log for #edev on 20091104

00:06.33*** join/#edev archae0pteryx (n=snewman@207.47.42.130.static.nextweb.net)
01:47.05Mirellis reading about marvelous Ruby unit testing
02:16.40MirellNothing as fun as reverse-packratting
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03:07.08landleywaves at prpplague
03:07.20landleyPutting together an FWL release.  Now with armv4t. :)
03:07.34landley(And a drop of retsin!  Baaaaad 80's commercial joke.)
03:18.08Mirellis reverse-packratting
03:39.14landleyMirell: clearing your garage in preparation for another move?
03:39.44MirellNot my garage, no. Other stuff.
03:39.50landleyPossibly I should just use #edev for talking about FWL instead of #firmware.
03:40.04MirellJust getting rid of crap that I've kept onto for years and years
03:40.21landleyI've done that from time to time.
03:40.50landleyThe problem is I have more than I can deal with in one sitting, and my stamina for making those kind of sorting decisions is about 2 hours.
03:45.37*** topic/#edev by Mirell -> A channel for the discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/WinCE/Commercial Device Repurposing) :: Please Refrain from Active Solicitation of Work/Contracts in this Channel.
03:45.44MirellTopic been bugging me for a while.
03:50.30landleyHey prpplague: would you mind if we shut down the #firmware channel and made #edev the official channel for FWL questions?
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04:57.17m4thow necessary are mips ejtag dint and key?
04:57.36m4tif not, should they be brought to ground, to 3.3v, left nc?
05:25.40MirellHow did I not know about git/svn blame before...
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06:01.13landleyMirell: hg annotate too.
06:01.27landleym4t: what are mips ejtag dint and key?
06:20.06monkey_hey landley are you there?
06:20.11monkey_or Mirell or prpplague
06:20.16monkey_or anybody for that matter
06:20.21MirellHmm?
06:20.51monkey_i have a coding question for you,
06:20.56landleymonkey_: yup.
06:21.13monkey_this seems really ineffecient
06:21.14monkey_http://pastebin.ca/1656201
06:21.20monkey_for reading and returning a button status
06:21.36m4they monkey, did you ever get openocd going?
06:22.00monkey_no
06:22.00m4ti've got a really, really simple config. and its a no go. openocd errors out and doesn't drop to a prompt
06:22.02m4toh
06:22.06monkey_lol
06:22.15landleyjsUp = jsTemp & (1 << 18);     jsUp = (jsUp >> 18);
06:22.27landleyBecomes jsUp = (jsTemp>>18)&1;
06:22.46monkey_i've been having a hard time comprehending this stuff, so another student who completed it gave me his copy for me to go by
06:22.55monkey_awesome, thanks landley
06:23.19landleyOh wow, that is horrible.
06:23.24landleyThe whole thing should probably just be...
06:23.54landleyUm, have to do binary math, just a sec while I pull up python...
06:24.33monkey_haha, thanks
06:25.38landleyAnyway, it should probably be return (~FIO1PIN)&(0x253<<18)
06:25.40landleyOr thereabouts.
06:25.55landleyjsup = jsuup >> 18
06:26.05landleyjsStatus |= jsUp << 18
06:26.09landleyThey just undo each other.
06:26.11landleyThe shifts, I mean.
06:26.11monkey_ah
06:26.23monkey_so remove the jsStatus stuff?
06:26.53landleyThe 0x253 is 1010010011 converted to hex.
06:27.09landleyThat's bits 18, 19, 22, 25, and 27 set, each minus 18 of course.  Then bit shift it 18 left.
06:27.17landleyThe compiler should do that at compile time as part of constant propogation.
06:27.34monkey_why minus 18?
06:27.53monkey_i mean, the jsUP is shifted 18 over?
06:28.12landley1010010011 is 2^0, 2^1, 2^5, 2^8, and 2^10.
06:28.19landleyAdd 18 to each of those, you get the ones you wanted.
06:28.33landleyI could have worked out the hex for 1010010011000000000000000000 but I was being lazy. :)
06:28.37landleyLet the compiler do it for me.
06:28.41monkey_haha
06:29.00monkey_so take out the jsStatus |=.... and just return the (~FIO1PIN....)
06:29.01landleyAlso it's after midnight here, I tend to get that sort of fiddly math wrong even when I'm not tired.
06:29.08landleyAppropriate masked, yeah.
06:29.13landleyThe rest are just temporary variables.
06:29.23monkey_should i not even bother with those?
06:29.26monkey_or are those still required
06:29.29landleyNot much point.
06:30.04monkey_that doesn't make much sense.  why all that binary jibba jabba
06:30.06landleyAll you reall need to do is return (~FIO1PIN)&(appropriate_mask);
06:30.20landleyBecause it was written by somebody who didn't understand what they were doing?
06:30.43landleyIt's a bit like seeing a horrible long algebraic equation that's basically a synonym for "x^2 + 2x + 3"
06:30.55landleyBut done by somebody who has no clue how to simplify algebraic equations.
06:30.55MirellFOILed again.
06:30.58landleyThis is the coding equivalent.
06:31.07monkey_lol
06:31.37landleyCoding and math are two completely different skill sets, but being able to simplify things is one place where they overlap.
06:31.53MirellGo Go Refactoring.
06:31.55monkey_yes.  i agree, and this is a big deal on embedded systems
06:31.59landleyx+3-3 is another way of saying just "x".
06:32.30monkey_http://pastebin.ca/1656234
06:32.38landleyAlthough (x>>18)<<18 turns out to be a way to say "x&((1<<18)-1)"
06:32.50monkey_i need to practice more binary math
06:32.56landleyBecause the bits on the bottom get chopped off, and filled in by zeroes when you push them back.
06:33.06landleyExcuse me, x&~((1<<18)-1)
06:33.17landleyMask out the bottom bits, _keep_ the top bits.
06:34.17landleyExcept if you do an x &= 1<<18 first, it doesn't matter that the bottom bits get zeroed out because you just _did_ zero out the bottom bits, so they become irrelevant.
06:34.47landleyWhoever did the code snippets you're pastebinning does not know C.
06:35.03landleyFor one thing, if(thingy) will be false for zero, and true for _any_ nonzero value.
06:35.08monkey_it's another student who is only slightly less lost than I am
06:35.09landleyif (42) is true.
06:35.18monkey_42 is true of everything
06:35.33landleySo the shifting before feeding stuff in to the if() is a waste of time.  If it was nonzero before, it's nonzero after, and that's all the test cares about.
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06:36.07landleyso what you need is:
06:36.12landleyreadval = FIO0PIN;
06:36.31landleyif (readval & (1<<29) printString("\nButton 1 pressed.");
06:36.50landleyif (readval & (1<<18)) printString ("\nButton 2 pressed.");
06:37.19landleyreturn readval & ((1<<18)|(1<<29));
06:37.29landleyAnd that last line's only because I didn't bother coming up with the right constant for the &.
06:37.36monkey_so in this last code thing I pasted, I can do the same thing for getting button status.  and simply return (~FIO0PIN) & (0x???? << 18);
06:37.52landleyWhich is 0x20040000
06:38.55monkey_I don't need the print strings
06:39.28monkey_that's just what he did.  but it actually might be helpful to detect and turn on certain things
06:39.33landleyThe only reason I'm snapshotting the value is I dunno if reading FIO0PIN multiple times has side effects.  Or if thats a #defined function instead of a memory location.  Or if reading from it is really slow because it's memory mapped I/O, or...
06:39.47monkey_for this I need to turn on an LED when a button1 is pressed, or toggle the lcd backlight with button2
06:41.20landleyYou've got the general theory down, anyway.
06:41.30monkey_not really...
06:41.30landleyThis code is doing lots of steps it doesn't need to.
06:41.53landleyExtra assignments, extra shifts...
06:42.11landleyIt's possible the compiler's optimizer would figure this out and combine some of 'em, but they're not all that smart.
06:43.21monkey_yeah
06:43.33landleyWhat's "not really" understood?
06:43.42landleyLack of confidence, or actual lack of understanding?
06:43.48monkey_both
06:44.02monkey_for some reason I'm just having a hard time grasping wtf is going on.
06:44.03landleyLack of confidence is fixed by practice.
06:44.04monkey_so let me try this
06:44.16landleyKeep in mind you can do test runs on the box.  The machine will either work or it won't, and testing shows that.
06:44.24landleyNote that sticking printfs into the thing is your friend.
06:44.31landley(Or "printString" in this case.)
06:44.48landleyFIO0PIN is a magic value.
06:44.51monkey_there is this register for a pin in this case it's a FIOPIN
06:44.59landleyPossibly it's a macro.
06:45.33landleyWhen you copy whatever FIO0PIN currently holds into your temporary variable, you've read from the magic value, so you now have a number.
06:45.42monkey_it's most likely a #define 0x?????????
06:45.44landleyThat number has bits set which indicate button and joystick positions.
06:45.53landleyIt's most likely that your setup code has something like:
06:46.04landleyunsigned int *thingy;  // this is a global
06:46.28landleyint main(blah) { *thingy = (unsigned int *)0x1314FFD2; }
06:46.42landleyOr whatever magic memory location they happen to know the joystick register lives at.
06:46.54landleyAnd then they #define FIO0PIN (*thingy)
06:47.05landleySo the pointer is dereferenced.
06:47.24landleyOr it could be a function.  #define FIO0PIN read_from_thingy()
06:47.39landleyIf you look at the header you #include to get it, you should see the implementation.
06:48.01landley(Yes, header files are human readable source files.  Go read stdio.h some time if you don't believe me. :)
06:48.59monkey_oh i've looked at those
06:49.01landleyAlthough reading headers the FSF has had anything to do with can be nauseating.
06:49.05monkey_not the C ones
06:49.10landleyAnd can lead you on a chain of #includes treasure hunt.
06:49.38landleyFor example, if you ever want to know what the possible errno values are, and you look at /usr/include/errno.h
06:50.08landleyYou'll find it #includes bits/errno.h which includes linux/errno.h which includes asm/errno.h which includes asm-generic/errno.h
06:50.21landleyAnd that the ones below 35 (the most common errors) are #included from asm-generic/errno-base.h
06:50.24landleyWhich is just crazy.
06:50.28monkey_yeah
06:50.40monkey_ok, lets take 10 steps back for a second and make sure i understand this
06:50.41landleyThank goodness for kernel level disk cacheing.
06:51.09landleyok
06:51.15monkey_so why is he converting ~FIOPIN
06:51.53landleyThe ~ inverts all the bits.
06:52.06monkey_i know that, but it's not opposite day?
06:52.29landleyApparently when you read from the register, the appropriate bit being 1 means it's _not_ being pushed and being 0 means it _is_ being pushed.
06:52.50landleyhe flips 'em so it's easier for C to test the conditions without having to use the ! operator a lot.
06:52.55monkey_ok
06:53.05monkey_that makes sense in weirdo land.  but i get it
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06:53.32landleyThe ~ thing is basically one CPU instruction.  It's fairly common to do.
06:53.52landleyIt's equivalent to xor with 0xFFFFFFFF or to just going 0-thingy.
06:54.03landley~a == (0-a)
06:54.07landleyI think so, anyway...
06:54.13landleyAs I said, it's way after midnight. :)
06:54.19monkey_anyway... lets keep our eye on the prize ;)
06:54.45landleyDarn it, now I have to check that...
06:55.30monkey_so, he inverts the bits, and then ANDs them with a (1<<29) which would just be 001000000000000000000000?
06:55.36landleyAnd of course python is giving me floating point values converted to binary.  THANKS A LOT, PYTHON.
06:55.46monkey_so it returns 0010000000.... or 000000000....
06:56.00monkey_so it's either 0 or 2^29
06:56.19landley~a ~= 0-a because 0-0 == 0 and ~0 == -1
06:56.35landleyAnyway, you probably don't care about one's complement representation of negative numbers in binary _just_ now. :)
06:56.46monkey_we learned 2s complement
06:57.05landley1<<29 is 1 followed by 29 zeroes in binary, so convert that to hex and you get...
06:57.19landley0x20000000
06:57.33landleymonkey_ the two are similar. :)
06:57.57landleymonkey_ but yes, the result after the & should either be 0 or equal to your mask, since your mask only had one bit set.
06:58.09landleyBut all an if() statement cares about is "zero or nonzero".
06:58.17landleyAnd 1<<29 is nonzero.
06:58.43landley2^30.
06:58.48landley1<<29 is 2^30.
06:59.00landleyUm, lemme confirm that...
06:59.26landleyNope, you were right.
06:59.34monkey_yeah, i thought it started at 2^0
06:59.37landley1<<blah == 2^blah
06:59.50landleyAs I said, after midnight, not a great time for me to try to do math in my head.
07:00.10landleyI'd caffeinate to clear the thinking, but I need to be somewhere at 10am.
07:00.15monkey_then whats the point of shifting the bits back over?
07:00.22monkey_you said that just canceled it out?
07:00.46monkey_oh, does he just want the value to be 1?
07:00.53monkey_if it's true/
07:01.31landleymonkey_: what the code is doing (the first one you pasted) is masking out each individual bit, copying it into a temporary variable, shifting it down to a 1 or 0, and then shifting it _back_ into its original position and combining it back into one big value with the bits in their original place, but _only_ the bits of interest with all the others masked to zero..
07:01.44landleyAnd all those steps aren't necessary.
07:01.56landleyMasking all the bits you aren't interested in to zero is a single & operation.  That's what & is for.
07:02.10landleyShifting them down to position 1 and then shifting them back to their original position later is a waste of time.
07:02.30landleyAnd copying each bit into its own variable only to recombine 'em again is silly.
07:02.50landleyso the whole shebang becomes a single & operation.
07:03.00landleyOriginal value & mask_with_just_the_bits_we_care_about.
07:03.28landleyAnd you don't even need to copy that into a temporary variable, you can just calculate directly it as the argument to the return statement.
07:04.00landleyIf you can go "return a+4;" then you can go "return a&12345;"
07:04.25landleyheck, you can go "return great_big_function() + WITH_CHEESE;"
07:04.34monkey_i like cheese
07:04.51landleyAs long as it resolves to a value of your function's declared return type, the compiler should cope.
07:05.21monkey_if not the compiler can borrow a razor and slit its wrists ?
07:05.23landleyIt's good that someone, somewhere, is teaching C.
07:05.34landleyWay too many people learn C++ and then _think_ they know C.
07:05.45monkey_i learned c++
07:06.34landleyMy condolences.
07:06.38monkey_haha
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07:08.20MirellObviously C# is just like C.
07:09.18monkey_001000000000100000000000000000 converted into hex.  on this scanbuttons function... return (~FIO0PIN) & (0x02.... << 18);
07:10.03landleyType "python", and when it pops up a prompt, go:
07:10.19monkey_print hex(01010101010101)
07:10.41landleyprint hex(0b1000000000100000000000000000)
07:10.57landleyI think just a leading 0 would indicate octal?
07:11.08landleyYeah, octal.
07:11.11landleyYou need the 0b prefix.
07:11.14monkey_0x8020000
07:11.18landleyPython is the world's best desk calculator. :)
07:11.21monkey_that's a weird output
07:11.30landleyThe 0x prefix means hexadecimal.
07:11.41landleySame as in C.
07:11.51landley(Although C doesn't have the 0b prefix for binary, unless they added it in c99.)
07:12.04landleyI still don't quite know all the new c99 stuff off the top of my head... :)
07:12.05monkey_oh wait.  i get it.  sorry, lol
07:19.50monkey_thanks for the lesson
07:20.29monkey_return (~FIO0PIN) & (0x08020000 << 18); simplifies
07:23.27landleyI gotta go to bed.  G'night...
07:23.31landleyYou're welcome.
07:23.53monkey_g'night
07:31.52monkey_anybody else here?
07:51.49MonMotha0b prefix is not part of C99, but gcc does support it in GNU99 mode
07:52.47MonMothagcc supports quite a few niceties from C++ in C mode that are sadly not in C99
07:52.54MonMothaanonymous structs/unions, for example
07:53.59monkey_thanks
07:54.33MonMotha"gcc -std=gnu99 ..." to enable such things, btw
07:55.05MonMothaI believe it defaults to gnu89 mode (aka ANSI C + GNU extensions) which won't get you things like interator declarations within the for construct
07:55.11monkey_ok.
07:55.19monkey_anyways, i need to go to bed :(
07:55.24MonMothaI should, too
07:57.33monkey_good night
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20:33.02MirellIndeed.
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20:44.25monkey_indubiously
20:59.53prpplaguedouble indeed
21:00.19prpplagueMirell: if you talk to landley, let him know i'm fine with him using #edev for FWL chat
21:00.31Mirellprpplague: A'ight
21:00.38Mirellprpplague: I shall send it over carrier pigeon.
21:00.55prpplagueMirell: hehe
21:03.36Mirellprpplague: How are tech events in Dallas?
21:04.10prpplagueMirell: few and far between
21:04.14CosmicPenguinThey move fast because everybody wants to get out of Texas
21:04.17prpplagueMirell: virually no open source stuff
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21:04.42prpplagueCosmicPenguin: not everyone, just alot of liberal techies
21:05.24prpplagueMirell: dallas/ft.worth is almost non-existant for any type of scifi/comic/opensource events
21:05.36MirellCosmicPenguin: Austin is not Texas, though, but elsewhere, yah.
21:05.44CosmicPenguinNo, Austin is Texas
21:05.50CosmicPenguinJust slightly less so
21:06.10CosmicPenguinBut now I'm trying to figure out if I known any conservative techies
21:06.14CosmicPenguinI think prpplague is the only one
21:06.22prpplagueCosmicPenguin: sjhill
21:06.34CosmicPenguinOh, and there was a guy at AMD too
21:06.36CosmicPenguinwow - three
21:06.39CosmicPenguindo I win a prize?
21:07.06prpplagueCosmicPenguin: hehe, you probably know more, we just tend to keep our politics to ourselves most of the time
21:07.49MonMothamost techies I know are socially moderate to liberal but fiscally conservative
21:07.58prpplagueMirell: but most of the tech organizations feel like CosmicPenguin does, so it is extremely unlikely for them to have a conference in dallas
21:08.38MirellAustin...is not Texas. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/14/134429/58
21:08.49prpplagueMirell: hehe
21:09.33prpplagueMirell: most of the training organizations won't come to dallas/ft.worth either
21:11.37Mirellhttp://www.blogography.com/photos30/TexasElectoralMap.gif as well
21:11.39MirellSo...anywho.
21:11.44prpplagueMirell: and in general thanks to dumbass bush, most internation conferences won't even consider coming to the US
21:11.47Mirellprpplague: Ahh...
21:12.17Mirellprpplague: I ask, because I've kept trying to go to Door64 events here, which is a local calendar hosting event thingie of sorts,
21:12.18prpplagueMirell: there are so many problems with people getting visitor visas, that they just don't even bother considering the US
21:12.25Mirellprpplague: And they keep being...way too managerial networkie
21:13.06prpplagueMirell: yea i challenge you to find a tech event in the DFW area
21:13.34prpplagueMirell: i think the last item i've heard about was there was a makefare not too long ago
21:13.38prpplagueMirell: but that's about it
21:14.07prpplaguechecks
21:14.15prpplaguegoogles Door64
21:16.08prpplagueMirell: this is the last tech event i know about in the DFW area - http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/07/an_afternoon_at_maker_fai_1.html
21:16.30prpplagueMirell: i thin austin has had like 10 makefaires since then
21:17.43Mirellprpplague: Not quite, we didn't have one this year, they claimed because of the recession.
21:17.50prpplagueMirell: ahh
21:17.53CosmicPenguinThey also have Make stuff associated with NXNW
21:17.59MirellSXSW
21:18.07CosmicPenguinAhh - sorry
21:18.17CosmicPenguinI crossed streams with Alfred there
21:18.37CosmicPenguinI was wondering why it was held in a corn field
21:19.16prpplagueSXSW?
21:19.36Mirellhttp://sxsw.com/
21:19.42CosmicPenguinCome on - that was comedy gold
21:19.42prpplaguelooks
21:19.46CosmicPenguinsomebody give me a prop?
21:20.58prpplagueMirell: ahh right i think i've heard of that before
21:21.10MirellCosmicPenguin: NXNW is a brew pub, so it's slightly funny
21:21.21Mirellhttp://www.nxnwbrew.com/
21:22.47prpplaguewe are getting our very first brewpub in the area opening in about a mount
21:22.53prpplaguemonth
21:23.14prpplaguenothing special though
21:23.25prpplaguehttp://www.bjsrestaurants.com/
21:24.26CosmicPenguinBJs is okay
21:24.35prpplagueCosmicPenguin: ahh you've been there?
21:24.41prpplaguehasn't ever been to one
21:24.59CosmicPenguinYeah, we have a couple here
21:25.01CosmicPenguinnothing to write home about
21:25.13CosmicPenguinKind of in the rock bottom tradition
21:25.13prpplaguethats what i figured, but better than nothing
21:26.09CosmicPenguinThey usually have some regular beers and some local ones
21:26.16CosmicPenguinThe one here has one a few awards
21:26.19prpplagueMirell / CosmicPenguin  thats the big thing that i dislike about DFW, not really any type of geek/techie community here, you end up being pretty isolated
21:26.47prpplagueCosmicPenguin: we have a couple of places that have large selections, but this is the first brewpub
21:27.31CosmicPenguincool
21:27.38prpplaguehttp://www.beerknurd.com/
21:27.40CosmicPenguinI remember it being pretty good food
21:27.55CosmicPenguinwe usually go to Rock Bottom or CB Potts - those are the big chain brewers around here
21:28.24prpplaguehttp://www.beerknurd.com/store.sub.php?store=3&sub=beer
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21:30.20prpplaguehmm, that reminds me that i've not been there in some time
21:30.27prpplaguemakes a note to go soon
21:34.55prpplaguelovely, under the new health care bill i'll have to pay $5600 in fines per year
21:35.43CosmicPenguinOuch
21:37.53SpeedEvilfines?
21:38.12prpplaguethe whole thing is insane, it's like two kids fighting over a shirt, and by the time they are done, they've dropped it in the mud and its messed up
21:38.48CosmicPenguinOf course
21:38.51prpplagueSpeedEvil: if you don't qualify or don't get health insurance through the program, you have to pay a fine per individual of $2800 per year
21:38.52bsdfox__I like the new mandate that insurers will cover christian science healing
21:38.58SpeedEvilah
21:39.21prpplagueSpeedEvil: my wife and step-daughter won't qualify
21:39.37SpeedEvil;/
21:40.05prpplagueSpeedEvil: my wife isn't a US citizen, and my step-daughter is younger than 18 with dual citizenship
21:40.15prpplagueSpeedEvil: which disqualifies them
21:42.48prpplaguethe Dems are always going on how they are for immigrants and yet they put this crap in the bill
21:43.07CosmicPenguinWell, to be fair, a lot of that was a concession for the Republicans
21:43.07Mirellprpplague: Link?
21:43.11prpplagueand the Reps want it to not cover any immigrants at all
21:43.34prpplagueCosmicPenguin: this particular is from a Dem
21:44.13prpplagueMirell: sorry no, i just got a newsletter from my immigration support group
21:44.23CosmicPenguinprpplague: right - but its a concession thing
21:44.48CosmicPenguinthe bill that the democrats presented to the world was so watered down from secret meetings that it is hard to tell what the original plan really was
21:44.58prpplagueCosmicPenguin: i guess you could look at it that way, but the problem is that illegals can still qualify with no problems
21:45.17CosmicPenguinI think its a fact of our immigration policy in gneral that only the law-abiding get screwed
21:45.20prpplagueCosmicPenguin: it's the legal ones that can't
21:46.04CosmicPenguinThat is wherein the OMG immigrant! representatives come up against the fact that they need the immigrants to be re-elected
21:47.23MirellDon't make me put no politics in the topic, Mr. Anders. :D
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21:48.00prpplagueMirell: hehe, yea well, i think i've earned the right to complain about immigration system after living in exile for almost 4 years
21:48.25CosmicPenguinI'm not above a little wheel warring
21:48.58kergothmeh
21:49.52prpplagueMirell: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125651743537907253.html
21:50.16prpplagueMirell: discusses the fines, but doesn't discuss the "fine print" of what you have to do to qualify as a non-US citizen
21:52.51prpplagueMirell: http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=176896
21:54.05Mirellprpplague: So you employ more than 50 people?
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21:54.53prpplagueMirell: the fines apply to individuals as well
21:56.04prpplagueMirell: trying to find an update page with the info now
21:59.26prpplagueMirell: http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/29/health.care/
22:00.25prpplagueMirell: current house bill sets the fine at $2800 or 2.5% which ever one is less
22:01.30prpplagueMirell: the house bill has it at $750.00 per person per year
22:01.41Mirellprpplague: And your wife is ineligible to get health insurance anywhere?
22:02.01prpplagueMirell: as part of the bill it will make her and my step daughter inelligable
22:02.05prpplagueMirell: we have it now
22:02.36Mirellprpplague: Right, I believe it's, "Either get health insurance somehow, or pay the fine"
22:03.01Mirellprpplague: And the bill will make it so your wife and step daughter no longer can get health insurance anywhere?
22:03.09prpplagueMirell: correct
22:03.20prpplagueMirell: they will be inellegible for 5 years
22:03.32Mirellprpplague: From BCBS, Aetna, Humana, United, anyone?
22:03.48prpplagueMirell: no one
22:03.55Mirellprpplague: Where's that...
22:04.14prpplagueMirell: gotta pick the kids up from school, bbi 20
22:04.38MirellMhm.
22:09.14bsdfox__I'm sure he's misinterpreting something
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22:19.47prpplagueMirell: ok, back
22:20.15Mirellprpplague: So where is this bit of legislation documented?
22:20.20prpplagueMirell: ok so here is the problem, it isn't spelled out directly, it is one of those "unintended consequences"
22:20.52prpplagueMirell: the bill states that the insurers have to use the medicare/medicade qualifications when the bill becomes law
22:21.10Mirellprpplague: Where's that?
22:21.31prpplagueMirell: part of the medicare/medicade restrictions on non-US citizens is that they aren't qualified for 5 years
22:22.43prpplagueMirell: let me see if i can find the exact section
22:26.53prpplagueMirell: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2009/10/health-care-for-legal-immigrants.html  just an excerpt, trying to get a working url for the text
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22:32.35prpplagueMirell: well i can't seem to find a working url for the current bill, i've posted a question on our immigration board to see if some has the exact text
22:33.25MirellBesides the fact you ignored the entire "Grandfathered plans" clause,
22:33.44MirellI'm not seeing anywhere about the "Apply Medicaid/Medicare standards" within Subtitle A, Health Insurance Exchange
22:33.48Mirellhttp://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3962/text?version=ih&nid=t0:ih:1123
22:34.23prpplaguelooks
22:34.42prpplagueMirell: is this the text of the current bill?
22:34.42MirellGrandfathered plans are here, by the way: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3962/text?version=ih&nid=t0:ih:766
22:35.08Mirellprpplague: It was the one introduced in the house a few days ago, yes.
22:35.52prpplaguetries to find the section referenced in the newsletter
22:36.35Mirell"t is critical that the House of Representatives eliminates the five year waiting period for legal immigrants in Medicaid, Medicare, and CHIP when it moves its health care reform legislation forward this week.  As it stands now, most recent legal immigrants are forced to wait five years before using these programs, even though they pay the same taxes as citizens to support these programs. "
22:36.48MirellThat's saying they're ineligible for Medicare/Medicaid/CHIP
22:37.07MirellI'm not seeing where it's saying those standards apply to the new health insurance exchange, or public option.
22:37.11MirellIn fact, that would be ridiculous.
22:37.20MirellIf you apply the Medicaid/Medicare standards to those,
22:37.26MirellHey, guess what, you're eligible for Medicare!
22:37.34MirellSo...what's the point.
22:38.37Mirellprpplague: Feel free to point out where I'm mistaken, but what you've linked seems to be either not applying to you, or a bunch of hyperbole garnered from reading a news article that never even glanced at the bill.
22:40.16eightdot_someone here from nl and interested in fpgas?
22:40.18prpplagueMirell: i'll be happy to admit if i am wrong, i'm reading over the news letter now again. they generally aren't wrong about immigration issues
22:42.02Mirellprpplague: If what you're saying is accurate, then yes, I will agree it's not good, but I'm not seeing it in the bill.
22:43.25SpeedEvilUnintended consequences are fun.
22:43.37SpeedEvilI pay for days of car insurance as I use the car - once or twice a month.
22:43.47SpeedEvilThis is half the price of continuous insurance.
22:44.11SpeedEvilThis is to become illegal, as you are required to have insurance all the time the car is declared to be road legal by being taxed.
22:44.29SpeedEvilHowever, you can't turn on and off the tax status in under a month.
22:44.44SpeedEvilHence - an extra $300 or so a year.
22:45.10SpeedEvilAll so they can reduce enforcement of those without insurance to a database search.
22:47.16MirellSo...
22:47.20MirellWhy not rent a car?
22:47.28prpplagueMirell: ahh looks like the newletter i got is way out of date - http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/61295--senators-reject-five-year-wait-for-immigrant-healthcare
22:47.46SpeedEvilMirell: I own a car.
22:47.59SpeedEvilMirell: and that would work out _much_ more expensive.
22:49.10Mirellprpplague: Ah
22:49.35prpplagueMirell: yea just got off the phone with the lead attorney at our immigration group, they didn't get the news letter updated
22:50.32Mirellprpplague: No fines then!
22:50.50Mirellprpplague: You'd also have been fine under the grandfather clause...
22:50.50prpplagueMirell: nope, not as long as i have the private insurance
22:51.02Mirellprpplague: Uh.
22:51.12Mirellprpplague: That's...the...whole...point...of the grandfather clause
22:51.29prpplagueMirell: right, as long as i keep the one i have and don't loose it
22:51.53Mirellprpplague: Right, but you're still fine regardless.
22:53.33prpplagueMirell: assuming nothing else crops up in the bill thanks to the GOP morons
22:54.23MirellHeh
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22:56.43prpplaguei personally think every single person in congress right now should be legally forbidden from running for office again and new elections to be held
22:59.29bsdfox__...
23:01.54prpplagueMirell: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/health/policy/04immig.html?_r=2&hpw
23:02.12prpplagueMirell: looks like GOP is still trying to push the 5 year deal
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23:24.03CosmicPenguinMan, can you imagine the carnage if that happened?
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23:28.43prpplagueCosmicPenguin: with what?
23:29.32CosmicPenguin<PROTECTED>
23:29.51SpeedEvil'maximizing restrictions on legal and illegal immigrants will save money and prevent health care benefits from becoming a magnet that draws new migrants to the United States'
23:29.52SpeedEvilinsane
23:30.18SpeedEvilThe legal part of that makes no sense, as you can alter the requirements of the legal immigration to fix that
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23:31.10SpeedEvilI would like to say that the UK is in a much better position with regards to sensible laws, but I just hurt myself laughing.
23:31.28prpplagueSpeedEvil: exactly, thats what everyone is worried about
23:31.42CosmicPenguinNot to mention you have about 1000 more years of jurisprudence then we do
23:37.00MadsyI'm drunk but have just one thing to say.. open the flood gates.
23:37.45MadsyThe disadvantages of immigration is highly exaggerated. And when it comes to the US, the whole country was based on immigration in the first place.
23:37.55Madsys/based/founded
23:38.11SpeedEvilThe USA already has second class workers. It's just they're all in china.
23:38.16SpeedEvilthird even
23:41.16prpplaguei'm all for immigration, just want it easier to legally immigration, common sense on the immigration process, and punishment for those who abuse the process(i.e. criminals who are here illegally)
23:41.17CosmicPenguinAlso, our
23:41.20CosmicPenguinnative food sucks
23:43.00prpplagueMirell:  a bunch of people have responded to my earlier post, what most of the people seem to be concerned about for their private insurance is that the companies may decide to drop them right before the grandfathered grace period
23:44.42prpplagueMirell: other people seem to think that the rates will go up really high right before the grandfather period since the insurance companies know we are between a rock and a hard spot
23:45.21prpplagueMirell: from what i'm reading in the grandfathered clause, after the law takes effect they can't change the rates
23:45.40prpplagueMirell: is that how you read it?
23:46.14prpplague"Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1."
23:47.51prpplaguegot off on a tangent this afternoon with this health care stuff
23:49.22MonMothaprpplague: I'm all for a less crazy and more open immigration policy.  I think we'd have a lot fewer "undocumented aliens" if legitimately immigrating were easier, and I don't really see the downsides of allowing reasonable immigration.
23:50.43prpplagueMonMotha: me either
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23:51.27prpplaguemain problem with the whole thing is, very little documenation as to what you are suppose to do, and if you make a mistake at best you have to start over, at worst you a banned for life
23:53.22prpplagueheads home for the day
23:53.34Mirellprpplague_afk: Yep
23:53.50prpplague_afkMirell: hmm
23:54.10prpplague_afkMirell: so basically i see it as one of three things
23:54.32Mirellprpplague_afk: This bill highlights the continual case of "NOBODY READS THE DAMN LEGISLATION", that we've had forever...sigh.
23:55.21prpplague_afkMirell: 1) they keep it going with no changes(which doesn't make much business sense to me)  2) they drop us from the plan because it will be too costly after the deadline 3) they raise the rates really high since they know we have no where to go
23:56.08prpplague_afkMirell: indeed, the fact that so much of it is legalesse, even reading it sometimes you don't know what i means
23:57.14prpplague_afkheads home

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