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| 01:00.59 | monkey_ | prpplague_afk: you there? |
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| 02:11.45 | mamoul | hey buddies |
| 02:13.39 | mamoul | do they make such a thing as a fanless netbook |
| 02:14.00 | nullpuppy | i haven't seen one yet. |
| 02:14.18 | mamoul | I got me an eeepc and began to notice |
| 02:14.27 | nullpuppy | its possible, though it probably won't be able to do much. most of the heat at this point is coming from video/northbridge |
| 02:14.49 | nullpuppy | mamoul: have you tried dusting it out? :) might be getting a too much dust in it and blocking airflow. |
| 02:14.52 | mamoul | given the state of embedded processing, it should be easy to get a fanless MID |
| 02:14.52 | mamoul | oh, video |
| 02:15.29 | nullpuppy | yeah. well, it should be possible to do decent video without a fan. unfortunately, it hasn't been pushed in that direction yet. |
| 02:16.13 | mamoul | just look at gp2x |
| 02:16.32 | nullpuppy | yes, i know. |
| 02:16.49 | mamoul | you know :) |
| 02:16.50 | mamoul | cool |
| 02:17.09 | nullpuppy | yeah :) I'm actually doing some low level hw design right now using an omap3530 |
| 02:17.28 | mamoul | I do like watching videos, but I'd sacrifice that for something thinner/lighter/cooler/quieter/longer running |
| 02:17.28 | nullpuppy | which is an arm cortex a8 with 3d acceleration, and like.. 2watts. |
| 02:17.53 | nullpuppy | yeah. you might get something soonish (and by soonish, it might be a year or two yet) from arm. |
| 02:18.07 | mamoul | yeah |
| 02:18.07 | mamoul | no doubt |
| 02:18.13 | mamoul | all the buzz was about arm based netbook but it hasn't materialized yet |
| 02:18.33 | nullpuppy | yeah. i'm not sure they're tech is quite ready yet. |
| 02:18.34 | mamoul | this nano cpu has really taken computing by storm |
| 02:18.57 | mamoul | although I always though arm was the champion in this arena |
| 02:19.09 | nullpuppy | yeah, the nano is pretty awesome. but its not really a desktop chip (none of via's chips are really desktop ready). |
| 02:19.25 | mamoul | oops I mean atom |
| 02:19.29 | mamoul | nano looks good too B) |
| 02:19.36 | mamoul | they all sound the same |
| 02:19.39 | nullpuppy | via has been all about making a very low power x86 chip. |
| 02:19.41 | nullpuppy | hehe, yeah. |
| 02:19.48 | nullpuppy | the atom is a good chip. |
| 02:19.52 | mamoul | nano does look really nice; I'd like to try it |
| 02:19.58 | mamoul | atom is going in these "net top" thingies |
| 02:20.07 | mamoul | weird concept |
| 02:20.13 | nullpuppy | though, via's isiah is slightly better, though it does use more power. |
| 02:20.19 | nullpuppy | yeah |
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| 02:20.27 | mamoul | I would like to build a via based system one of these days |
| 02:20.27 | *** mode/#edev [+o sjhill] by ChanServ |
| 02:20.33 | mamoul | using only via chips |
| 02:20.48 | nullpuppy | nvidia has some cool stuff coming too.. but i'm weary. nvidia has proven to be a bit of a nuisance at times. |
| 02:20.54 | mamoul | possibly |
| 02:20.59 | nullpuppy | yeah, that'd be cool. |
| 02:21.06 | nullpuppy | bbiaf, moving rooms. |
| 02:21.10 | mamoul | ok |
| 02:21.42 | mamoul | I can't think of many companies that make all the chips necessary to have a fully functioning system |
| 02:22.12 | mamoul | now that amd owns ati, I suppose they're in the game |
| 02:28.53 | nullpuppy | woo, finally back. damn network. |
| 02:29.12 | nullpuppy | yeah, amd could do it, but i haven't seen much from them aside from the geode |
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| 02:47.37 | mamoul | woo |
| 02:48.34 | mamoul | my last amd box had mostly via chips |
| 02:50.35 | nullpuppy | my current amd box has an nvidia chipset i think. current intel box is pretty much all intel. |
| 02:51.15 | mamoul | good on intel |
| 02:51.24 | mamoul | actually my current pc also has nforce |
| 02:51.50 | mamoul | which was for a while a real pain in the ass |
| 02:52.00 | mamoul | especially the ethernet |
| 02:52.04 | nullpuppy | yeah. |
| 02:52.17 | mamoul | but in the end linux prevailed |
| 02:52.20 | mamoul | as it always does |
| 02:52.33 | mamoul | soon I will have libre firmware for my broadcom wireless in my laptop |
| 02:53.00 | nullpuppy | nice. |
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| 02:54.56 | mamoul | ya |
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| 04:09.04 | monkey_ | ello? |
| 04:14.44 | monkey_ | anybody here? |
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| 17:59.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hey crackster |
| 17:59.48 | CosmicPenguin | I like that nickname |
| 18:00.26 | kergoth | "We are always in these days endeavoring to separate intellect and manual labor; we want one man to be always thinking and another to be always working, and we call one a gentleman and the other an operative; whereas the workman ought often to be thinking, and the thinker often to be working, and both should be gentlemen in the best sense. As it is we make both ungentle, the one envying, the other despising, his brother; and the mass of |
| 18:00.26 | kergoth | is made up of morbid thinkers and miserable workers." --John Ruskin |
| 18:01.40 | prpplague | kergoth: dandy quote, you read "Atlas Shrugged" ? |
| 18:01.55 | kergoth | started to ages ago, but never did go back and finish it. often hear it recommended |
| 18:01.57 | prpplague | oops gotta run an errand, bbi 30 |
| 18:02.01 | kergoth | later |
| 18:02.11 | prpplague | kergoth: try buying it on audio dvd |
| 18:02.17 | prpplague | sorry i meant cd |
| 18:02.32 | prpplague | brb |
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| 18:31.00 | prpplague | returns |
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| 18:32.58 | prpplague | kergoth: get it as an audio book, you can listen to on the way to/from work |
| 18:36.04 | CosmicPenguin | For about 3 years |
| 18:36.30 | CosmicPenguin | I started it when my daughter was born, reading it while I fed her, and I finished it right before her first birthday |
| 18:36.58 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: audio book is abridged |
| 18:37.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: total time is about 12 hours |
| 18:37.13 | CosmicPenguin | blah, blah, John Gault, blah, blah... |
| 18:37.14 | CosmicPenguin | the end |
| 18:43.02 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:43.10 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you didn't like it? |
| 18:44.09 | CosmicPenguin | Its okay - it is idealistic for a simpler time |
| 18:44.53 | CosmicPenguin | I agree with the basic tenent, but it makes unsafe assumptions about true human nature |
| 18:47.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: such as ? |
| 18:48.44 | CosmicPenguin | Her ideal society is one where all participants support themselves and don't depend on others |
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| 18:49.05 | CosmicPenguin | But basic human nature is to take avantage of others for one's own benefit |
| 18:50.30 | CosmicPenguin | So even the ideal society would turn into a have and have-not dicotomy given enough time |
| 18:50.38 | prpplague | interesting |
| 18:51.13 | CosmicPenguin | Not to mention the human instinct of self-preservation - say you have an El-nino year and all the cattle die - then what |
| 18:51.16 | CosmicPenguin | ? |
| 18:51.26 | prpplague | interesting |
| 18:51.35 | CosmicPenguin | We have that same problem here - if all goes well, the process is sane |
| 18:51.52 | CosmicPenguin | but all never goes well, so the process is complex and is draining the life force from my head |
| 18:52.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you mean at work? |
| 18:53.10 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah - but it is a microcosm of life, I think |
| 18:53.50 | CosmicPenguin | goes to lunch up before his next soul crushing meeting |
| 18:54.09 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the lack of people to discuss such things as "atlas shrugged" is one of the draw backs to living in the DFW area |
| 18:57.34 | CosmicPenguin | heh |
| 18:57.54 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah - no, I totally agree with the basic concepts, and I try to live my life in that general philosophy |
| 18:58.12 | CosmicPenguin | but I don't think its pratical on a larger societal basis |
| 18:58.52 | CosmicPenguin | And to be honest, its hard to live in America in the 21st century without depending on others to a certain extent |
| 18:58.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: nice to hear someone else's perspective on it |
| 18:59.03 | CosmicPenguin | I need the ambulance to show up when I call... |
| 19:00.36 | prpplague | wishes there was more of a geek community in dfw |
| 19:02.33 | prpplague | is stuck waiting on parts today |
| 19:04.00 | prpplague | wonder if i can get away with asking to be paid in euros |
| 19:04.45 | CosmicPenguin | heh - probably not |
| 19:07.15 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: they aren't in the US |
| 19:07.45 | CosmicPenguin | well - maybe |
| 19:08.00 | CosmicPenguin | if you were a vendor, what would you do? |
| 19:08.49 | prpplague | if i were a non-US vendor, i'd definetly stay away from the USD |
| 19:09.11 | CosmicPenguin | Would you? It would be cheaper... |
| 19:09.37 | prpplague | ahh right in they'd seem to get more work for the money |
| 19:12.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: funny since they are probably converting from euros to usd and then i'm going back to euros |
| 19:16.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'd put it into barbados dollars, but they are tied to the value of the US dollar |
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| 21:35.37 | landley | waves at prpplague, but from a distance since his laptop battery is dying. |
| 21:35.46 | prpplague | landley: doh |
| 21:35.49 | prpplague | landley: hey bud |
| 21:35.58 | landley | solar: there's a busybox conversation that involves you, might wanna check your email. :) |
| 21:36.12 | prpplague | landley: in case Mirell didn't pass along the info, you can use #edev for fwl discussion |
| 21:37.14 | landley | Ah, found an outlet. |
| 21:37.20 | landley | Woot. |
| 21:37.36 | landley | I'm working on a release, got delayed by m68k and powerpc-440 being broken. (Now mostly fixed.) |
| 21:37.57 | landley | And vladimir wanting better non-root user support, which led me to a big long mdev tangent. |
| 21:38.04 | landley | Which is what the poke at solar was about. :) |
| 21:39.44 | prpplague | ahh |
| 21:40.47 | landley | I now have three mdev.conf files live from the field: |
| 21:40.58 | landley | http://git.alpinelinux.org/cgit/aports/tree/main/busybox-initscripts/mdev.conf |
| 21:41.24 | landley | http://cross-lfs.org/view/clfs-embedded/x86/bootscripts/mdev.html |
| 21:41.34 | landley | and ftp://tinderbox.x86.dev.gentoo.org/misc/mdev.conf |
| 21:41.52 | landley | Trying to merge 'em together and push upstream to have an examples/mdev.conf in busybox source. |
| 21:42.02 | landley | Then I can just grab that for fwl. :) |
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| 21:43.13 | landley | Hi pirho. |
| 21:46.01 | landley | Argh, I _really_ need to pick toybox back up again. |
| 21:46.12 | landley | I'm reading the current busybox source code and wanting to slap authors. |
| 21:46.50 | landley | After the FWL 1.0 release, bear down on learning lua and rewrite toybox in it as my big learning project. |
| 21:55.29 | landley | s/who is the bot here/hello/ |
| 21:55.37 | landley | Ah, it was worth a try. :) |
| 21:55.44 | landley | s/try/thingy/ |
| 21:56.00 | landley | msg purl seen solar |
| 21:56.50 | kergoth | landley: what are you planning on using lua for, out of curiosity? |
| 21:58.35 | landley | kergoth: When Bruce Fscking Perens drove me away from busybox development, I spent about a year writing a new one from scratch. |
| 21:59.07 | landley | (One that didn't have "bruce disease". Even though he hadn't touched it in 10 years and I forensically proved none of his code was still in it, he was still making sco-like IP claims to it.) |
| 21:59.42 | landley | Anyway, that petered out because busybox has a 10 year headstart and a dozen active developers, I really didn't want to undermine Denys anyway. |
| 22:00.35 | landley | But it also means I'm a bit reluctant to go back to work on busybox because even though I no longer have a visceral aversion to touching code bruce has ever been near (I got over it, he simply doesn't matter to me anymore), the busybox infrastructure is kind of pathetic in comparison to the toybox infrastructure. |
| 22:00.37 | kergoth | ahh, i see |
| 22:00.53 | kergoth | should look at toybox, haven't done so yet |
| 22:01.09 | landley | I have better command line parsing infrastructure, better command dispatching infrastructure... |
| 22:01.11 | prpplague | kergoth: it's dandy |
| 22:01.43 | landley | Adding a command to toybox means adding a single toys/commandname.c file. Adding the same command to busybox requires touching at least 5 files. |
| 22:02.24 | landley | (All the command blah.h files and such are generated at build time by running sed and sort and such against toys/*.c. Most of the build infrastructure's a big shell script) |
| 22:02.42 | kergoth | slick |
| 22:03.13 | MonMotha | it's supposed to be a small shell script, as in "Go away or I'll replace you with a..." |
| 22:03.15 | landley | This means every time I go to touch something in busybox, it's a bit like going from Linux to dos. |
| 22:03.40 | landley | I _used_ to do that, but remembering what the senseless limitations are and how to jump around them just isn't fun anymore. |
| 22:04.26 | landley | About 120 lines. Not exactly small. |
| 22:05.02 | landley | It generates a kconfig file from specially formatted comments at the top of the C files, generates a command dispatch table header file, and a few other things. |
| 22:05.25 | landley | The help infrastructure needs more work, it's _supposed_ to generate man pages from the kconfig help text, and it _sort_ of does... |
| 22:05.49 | landley | But merging the "usage:" lines of the top level command option and its sub-options that add more options turns out to be hard to do from shell script. |
| 22:06.05 | landley | I'm tempted to do it in python, but don't want to add that as a build dependency. |
| 22:07.18 | calculus | landley: solar is on travel, from another bot: solar: will be back on the 8th @ 2009/10/30 15:43Z |
| 22:07.31 | landley | calculus: ah. Thanks. |
| 22:07.47 | landley | kergoth: a toybox command looks like this: http://landley.net/hg/toybox/file/tip/toys/netcat.c |
| 22:08.09 | landley | The comment lines that start with * at the top are just comments. |
| 22:08.41 | landley | The USE_NETCAT() stuff is the line that says what names this command shows up as, and what command line option it takes, whether it's in /bin or /usr/bin, etc. |
| 22:08.56 | landley | The config entries are the appropriate kconfig chunk for menuconfig. |
| 22:09.13 | landley | The help text for those menuconfig entries gets ripped out and used for the "help" command (and eventually for man pages). |
| 22:09.49 | landley | The DEFINE_GLOBALS() bit is for all the global variables this command uses. |
| 22:10.11 | landley | Which do the "every command has a struct, and they're all unioned together to save space". |
| 22:10.59 | landley | Unfortunately mark made me take the header and footer includes out of my project web pages, so you can't find the documentation I wrote up anymore. |
| 22:11.52 | landley | But there's some design docs at http://landley.net/code/toybox/design.html and some code documentation at http://landley.net/code/toybox/code.html |
| 22:12.31 | landley | Anyway, despite the fact that I like my implementation way better than busybox's, I don't feel like trying to out-code that entire project. |
| 22:12.54 | landley | And there's no real reason for both to exist, busybox is good enough that there's no _reason_ to replace it. (Even if it is getting ugly, it's still "good enough".) |
| 22:13.09 | landley | But doing the same set of commands implemented in lua, that has a reason to exist. :) |
| 22:13.43 | landley | I note that my firmware linux project still needs to use toybox commands for a few things. (patch, netcat, oneit) because the busybox ones are either missing features or missing entirely. |
| 22:13.57 | landley | (For example, my patch can handle offsets just fine, the stock busybox one can't.) |
| 22:14.19 | landley | My netcat has server support that makes it a quick and dirty inetd replacement, the busybox one doesn't. |
| 22:14.22 | landley | That sort of thing. |
| 22:20.58 | landley | I keep thinking I should push things like my patch implementation upstream into busybox, but I hit the impedence mismatch in the basic infrastructure and lose interest... |
| 22:31.30 | prpplague | landley: i'm beat, heading home early today |
| 23:37.11 | *** join/#edev SpeedEvil1 (i=1000@mauve.plus.com) |
| 23:50.25 | *** join/#edev dieter__ (n=dieter@dslb-088-066-196-033.pools.arcor-ip.net) |