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| 01:15.23 | poakinx | should DSPs or FPGAs be used when you need >70 pwms and 30 ADCs for controlling a common object? or should they both be used together? |
| 01:20.49 | MonMotha | a small FPGA can easily handle all those PWMs, but most won't have built in A/D |
| 01:20.59 | MonMotha | however, most DSPs don't have that many PWM output channels |
| 01:21.09 | MonMotha | and 30 A/D is a lot even for a DSP |
| 01:21.22 | poakinx | i see |
| 01:21.30 | poakinx | but a FPGA can do PWM |
| 01:21.42 | MonMotha | oh sure |
| 01:21.49 | MonMotha | it's basically just a counter and a comparator |
| 01:22.20 | poakinx | and to control a common object, all those pwms would have to coordinate. doesnt this mean that a processor of some sort is necessary? |
| 01:22.36 | MonMotha | and you can share the counter amongst many outputs |
| 01:23.00 | poakinx | not if it needs different frequencies at each outptu |
| 01:23.03 | poakinx | output |
| 01:23.08 | MonMotha | a CPU may be necessary depending on the nature of your system. You could possibly go with a soft core or dump the FPGA as a peripheral (SPI, I2C, bus, etc.) on a micro |
| 01:23.32 | MonMotha | well, you can have different frequencies as long as they are integer multiples of each other |
| 01:23.41 | poakinx | oh |
| 01:23.46 | MonMotha | or, with a more complicated output map (i.e. multiple compare points) you can play some games |
| 01:24.00 | MonMotha | but yes, you can also just have multiple counters |
| 01:24.14 | poakinx | ok |
| 01:24.38 | poakinx | i am having a hard time deciding to implement a softcore or use the FPGA as a peripheral.. |
| 01:26.56 | poakinx | MonMotha: if i am not mistaken, implementing a softcore requires RAM and memory like flash to be interfaced to the FPGA |
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| 01:30.00 | MonMotha | yes |
| 01:30.05 | MonMotha | soft core is not always an option |
| 01:30.17 | poakinx | ? |
| 01:30.29 | MonMotha | if the application is small, RAM can be just a block RAM in the FPGA, but you'll still need some configuration memory (non-volatile) for the FPGA |
| 01:30.46 | MonMotha | you can get FPGAs with built in configuration memory now, though |
| 01:31.02 | MonMotha | Altera and Xilinx both have such options |
| 01:31.30 | poakinx | you mean on chip flash configuration memory? |
| 01:31.37 | MonMotha | yes |
| 01:31.44 | poakinx | i thought only actel produces them |
| 01:31.46 | MonMotha | Spartan 3AN, for example |
| 01:31.50 | poakinx | ooh |
| 01:31.59 | MonMotha | Altera has something, too |
| 01:32.19 | MonMotha | if you have an external CPU, it can usually download the configuration if you prefer |
| 01:33.20 | poakinx | do you think implementing a softcore or using the FPGA as a peripheral would be more time efficient for development? |
| 01:42.06 | MonMotha | peripheral is almost guaranteed to be faster |
| 01:42.12 | MonMotha | keep the FPGA simple |
| 01:42.30 | MonMotha | it's very easy to say "just chuck that in the FPGA" until you have to actually do it :) |
| 01:43.01 | poakinx | haha yes |
| 01:44.14 | poakinx | MonMotha: by the way, do you prefer xilinx or altera fpgas? which do you think would be easier (spending less time to configure)? |
| 01:45.22 | MonMotha | I'm a Xilinx person |
| 01:45.33 | poakinx | nice |
| 01:45.33 | MonMotha | I've not really used Altera stuff, though |
| 01:45.56 | poakinx | i see |
| 01:47.13 | poakinx | thanks MonMotha |
| 01:55.01 | MonMotha | no problem |
| 01:55.12 | MonMotha | need help? I am for hire :) |
| 02:00.27 | poakinx | MonMotha: :) |
| 02:00.56 | poakinx | mind if I pm you? |
| 02:01.26 | MonMotha | go ahead |
| 02:06.42 | Mirell | Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo MonMotha, the topic! |
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| 04:02.14 | davidc__ | MonMotha: whoa, another xilinx person. |
| 04:16.29 | davidc__ | ... its dead in here |
| 04:16.40 | davidc__ | Also; re topic, I've seen that rule broken sooo many times in here :P |
| 04:16.48 | Mirell | davidc__: I know... |
| 04:16.57 | Mirell | I don't know why prpplague still wants it |
| 04:16.58 | Mirell | Hell.. |
| 04:17.08 | *** topic/#edev by Mirell -> A channel for the discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/WinCE/Commercial Device Repurposing) |
| 04:17.11 | Mirell | Problem solved. |
| 04:17.12 | davidc__ | hey, prpplague was sorta one of the ones that broke it :P |
| 04:17.19 | Mirell | YepYep |
| 04:18.39 | davidc__ | how's life mirrel? |
| 04:20.46 | Mirell | 'salright |
| 04:20.52 | Mirell | Started new job this Monday... |
| 04:21.43 | davidc__ | nice. Always nice to have a change of scenery |
| 04:24.13 | davidc__ | I'm trying to retain my sanity while shaving of 0.6ns on this FPGA design. |
| 04:24.40 | davidc__ | its like playing whackamole. I get all the bits to meet timing, put them all together, and they don't anymore. |
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| 04:29.12 | Mirell | I need to learn more about what a FPGA really is... |
| 04:30.14 | davidc__ | eh; essentially a soup of flip flops and logic |
| 04:30.42 | davidc__ | with a few chunks [ram blocks, multipliers, clock multipliers] thrown in |
| 04:32.54 | davidc__ | Mirell: lets you do weird, nonstandard things really easily. [for some values of easy] |
| 04:33.22 | davidc__ | Mirell: aka, want 100PWM channels @ 1mhz with 6 bit resolution? no problem. |
| 04:42.11 | Mirell | Ah |
| 04:43.01 | davidc__ | Mirell: they're not so good for doing procedural tasks, but for massive parallel, hard to beat them |
| 04:43.35 | davidc__ | my application involves processing several 1Gbps datastreams, reformatting them + routing them around |
| 04:43.48 | davidc__ | would require several beefy processors with specialised interfaces |
| 04:43.54 | davidc__ | or 1 $15 FPGA |
| 04:52.13 | Mirell | Heh |
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| 05:09.37 | Ian_Daniher | I'm a college freshman seeking an embedded device internship next summer - any suggestions as to where I'd look? |
| 05:14.11 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: what kind of embedded stuff? |
| 05:14.24 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: micros? linux? |
| 05:18.40 | Ian_Daniher | ARM7 / cortex m3 or linux would be nice, because they're what I've been working with most these days |
| 05:19.00 | Ian_Daniher | micros would be great |
| 05:19.27 | Ian_Daniher | quite frankly, I've tangentially learned about most areas of edev, and would love to get a job / internship that allowed me to learn more |
| 05:19.30 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: whereabouts are you located? |
| 05:19.34 | Ian_Daniher | I'm not too picky about the details |
| 05:20.09 | Ian_Daniher | davidc__: I attend Olin College of Engineering in Boston, MA and live in Cincinnati, OH |
| 05:21.00 | davidc__ | heh, I'm just down in NYC [right now] |
| 05:21.12 | davidc__ | I don't know of much around the area, I'm not really from here |
| 05:22.14 | Ian_Daniher | whereabouts are you from? |
| 05:22.23 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: Vancouver, BC |
| 05:22.28 | davidc__ | down here on a consulting gig. |
| 05:23.31 | Ian_Daniher | cool - consulting on what / for whom? |
| 05:24.07 | davidc__ | can't really say much more than cool FPGA / linux stuff. |
| 05:24.26 | davidc__ | NDA's and all that, you know. |
| 05:25.45 | Ian_Daniher | ah, I understand |
| 05:26.09 | Ian_Daniher | well, cool FPGA / linux stuff is an excellent thing to work on, from my POV |
| 05:26.33 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: honestly though; I'd say if you want to learn, grab yourself a FPGA board / target board of your choice |
| 05:26.39 | davidc__ | and just build something cool. |
| 05:27.12 | davidc__ | something cool + difficult, get it published on make, hackaday, slashdot if you can pull it off |
| 05:27.33 | davidc__ | make sure your page mentions you're looking for a summer internship |
| 05:27.43 | davidc__ | I bet after doing that 2 or 3 times, you'll start getting emails. |
| 06:00.24 | MonMotha | Mirell: I didn't actively solicit. I just offered when the topic came up :) |
| 06:02.17 | Ian_Daniher | davidc__: do you think the same would hold true for cortex m3, or does that lack the 'awe factor' of FPGAs? |
| 06:02.42 | davidc__ | MonMotha: also; know any magic tricks to squeeze 600 picoseconds out of an Xilinx device? |
| 06:02.59 | davidc__ | Ian_Daniher: oh, just do anything cool |
| 06:03.25 | davidc__ | MonMotha: *an extra |
| 06:03.35 | davidc__ | if you can show self initiative, and an ability to design and build something complex from beginning to end, you're ahead of a lot of grands / students out there |
| 06:05.49 | davidc__ | *grads |
| 06:06.12 | davidc__ | [sorry, can't type. hands all tingly / weird after a long day of coding] |
| 06:06.17 | davidc__ | [early carpal tunnel, yay] |
| 06:06.26 | MonMotha | davidc__: lie and tell it you have the next higher speed grade? :) |
| 06:06.32 | MonMotha | if you're at room temp, it'll work |
| 06:06.45 | davidc__ | MonMotha: unfortunately; it doesn't seem to :/ |
| 06:06.49 | MonMotha | really... |
| 06:06.52 | MonMotha | wow |
| 06:07.01 | MonMotha | in that case, it's often kinda design dependent |
| 06:07.02 | davidc__ | yeah, the board is running pretty hot though |
| 06:07.18 | MonMotha | basically, identify the longest path (graphical RTL view can be handy) and look to shorten it |
| 06:07.20 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, I think I'm just going to rewrite that section with a different logic style |
| 06:07.26 | MonMotha | you may need to pipeline the process |
| 06:07.36 | MonMotha | that can also work |
| 06:07.44 | davidc__ | or do it all with primitives |
| 06:07.50 | davidc__ | that section has met timing before |
| 06:07.54 | davidc__ | its just laying it out like crap |
| 06:08.05 | davidc__ | and insantiating some unnecessary bits |
| 06:08.15 | davidc__ | I need to figure out how to pull up the graphical RTL view |
| 06:08.29 | davidc__ | so far I've been figuring out what its actually doing from timingan + fpga editor |
| 06:08.57 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I'm trying to get a custom CPU-ish core running @ 150mhz in a Spartan 3E |
| 06:11.04 | MonMotha | it's been a while since I seriously used ISE, so I don't know where they hide RTL view anymore |
| 06:11.25 | MonMotha | I'm surprised that 600ps at worst case temp is making it not work at room temp |
| 06:11.25 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I don't use ISE either; I use a fully makefile driven flow; so I just need to find the right command line tool |
| 06:11.32 | MonMotha | ah |
| 06:12.05 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, I figured that would be the case; however the +3V3 voltage rail is sagging a bit, and the board is pretty hot |
| 06:12.21 | davidc__ | MonMotha: also; the same design simulated works fine, so I'm not exactly sure whats going on |
| 06:12.32 | davidc__ | actually, you just gave me an idea, |
| 06:14.37 | MonMotha | cool it down? :) |
| 06:14.45 | MonMotha | be careful with freeze spray |
| 06:14.48 | MonMotha | you can crack the BGA joints |
| 06:14.55 | davidc__ | MonMotha: PQFP package ;) |
| 06:15.22 | davidc__ | you convinced me it wasn't probably the timing; so I double checked my simulation against my test scripts |
| 06:15.25 | davidc__ | and found a possible bug |
| 06:19.05 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I owe you a beer. Its showing signs of life in hardware now. |
| 06:19.48 | ZeZu | whips out a few "Fat Tire" ales |
| 06:20.14 | MonMotha | davidc__: I don't drink, but that's OK :) |
| 06:21.56 | davidc__ | MonMotha: It was a bug in initialation timing in simulation vs environment. Real world init scripts generated the sequence that was used in simulation |
| 06:22.20 | davidc__ | but the simulation didn't follow real world timing, just blew it at the board |
| 06:22.29 | davidc__ | which masked a state machine taking a step it shouldn't. |
| 06:22.54 | davidc__ | thanks again. now, to sleep for me; I can sleep knowing its actually starting to work in HW |
| 06:23.03 | davidc__ | I can make it meet timing so its shippable at a later date. |
| 06:27.12 | davidc__ | anyhow; since ya don't drink; I owe you a coffee ;) |
| 06:33.42 | MonMotha | heh, I don't drink coffee, either |
| 06:33.48 | MonMotha | but I do enjoy oddball soft drinks |
| 06:33.54 | MonMotha | I'll let you know if you can get me one |
| 06:34.00 | davidc__ | haha, alrighty. |
| 06:34.03 | davidc__ | *alright. |
| 06:35.23 | MonMotha | well, I guess my fancy new laptop will end up with Linux+XP on it |
| 06:35.33 | MonMotha | the included Windows won't let me do a clean install or adjust partition sizes |
| 06:36.02 | MonMotha | and I really don't feel like buying ANOTHER copy of Win7 |
| 06:37.27 | davidc__ | MonMotha: gparted re: adjusting partitions? |
| 06:37.47 | davidc__ | also; I hear there are CD's that will take an arbitrary CD key |
| 06:37.58 | davidc__ | especially since you have a valid OEM one |
| 06:38.09 | MonMotha | yes, I do |
| 06:38.24 | MonMotha | I also want to axe all the Lenovo provided crap |
| 06:38.32 | MonMotha | 90% of it is not required for any functionality at all and just gets in the way |
| 06:46.21 | ZeZu | MonMotha, magic jelly bean or smth |
| 06:46.51 | ZeZu | you can normally reuse the keys OEM gives you, and above that, normally find out the lazy buggers didn't even install the key they gave you, but used a bigger OEM key on the notebook |
| 06:47.28 | ZeZu | so therefore you get two legit keys , and prob both can be installed on a generic win7 copy, and on top of THAT the oem key sometimes is valid for "better" builds |
| 06:47.54 | ZeZu | that magic bean app will find the key for you that is currently used (if it works on win7) |
| 06:48.34 | ZeZu | i'm sure the other one is on the bottom of the notebook, or in the manual with the little windows seal |
| 06:49.26 | ZeZu | congrats on picking a lenovo, they normally at least use decent hardware ;) |
| 06:51.40 | MonMotha | ZeZu: yes, but I'd have to then acquire a copy of Win7 OEM, which I don't have |
| 06:51.47 | MonMotha | and yes, I picked it for the hardware, not the crappy default build |
| 06:52.04 | MonMotha | I knew the default build would be terrible |
| 06:52.09 | MonMotha | ~1:30 from power on to usable desktop |
| 06:52.23 | MonMotha | I think my ancient Win2k machine boots faster |
| 06:53.01 | MonMotha | I assume there's absolutely no way to do this from their recovery media |
| 06:54.02 | MonMotha | I found a set of instructions for Vista, but it assumes I have a Vista disc |
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| 14:30.15 | chouimat | morning |
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| 14:56.47 | chouimat | hi prpplague kergoth |
| 15:23.12 | Mirell | *yawn* |
| 15:23.16 | Mirell | Morning. |
| 15:43.06 | Madsy | ..US East? |
| 15:44.35 | Mirell | CST |
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| 15:49.39 | CosmicPenguin | Our bug tracking system requires me to use Citrix inside of Vmware - double virtualization for the loss |
| 15:50.11 | Mirell | Nice. |
| 15:50.52 | CosmicPenguin | to be fair... the anternative is to have a windows machine on my desktop |
| 15:50.57 | CosmicPenguin | so I guess part of that virtualization is my own bad |
| 15:55.34 | Mirell | Yay, got mah first paycheck here. |
| 15:56.58 | kergoth | gras |
| 15:57.00 | kergoth | grats, even |
| 15:57.30 | Mirell | Time to spend it all on booze and girls |
| 15:59.51 | CosmicPenguin | there you go |
| 16:00.38 | CosmicPenguin | Thats where my money goes too, but its all the same girl |
| 16:00.42 | CosmicPenguin | s/all/always/ |
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| 16:29.50 | ryra | hi |
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| 16:39.32 | Mirell | I'm already starting to rather dislike tcl.. |
| 16:40.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:41.08 | Mirell | Why does this not work: set foo "[ls]" |
| 17:20.23 | m4t | any of you worked w/timesys linuxlink? |
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| 17:26.30 | m4t | $$ |
| 17:50.50 | Mirell | m4t: landley did |
| 17:50.55 | Mirell | m4t: Why? |
| 17:51.49 | m4t | Mirell oh i got a demo account |
| 17:51.54 | m4t | its quite restricted |
| 17:51.57 | Mirell | Ah. |
| 17:51.58 | m4t | no git access etc. |
| 17:52.15 | Mirell | He would quite wholeheartedly not recommend Timesys anymore. |
| 17:52.16 | m4t | though i do have the kernel source, which is about the only major thing |
| 17:52.41 | Mirell | They basically made the work environment so insane most of their engineers quit, |
| 17:52.51 | Mirell | And then they hired fresh college grads with no one to train them |
| 17:52.58 | Mirell | And they were trying to sell expertise. |
| 17:53.00 | Mirell | So...yeeeeeeeah. |
| 17:53.11 | m4t | heheh |
| 17:53.52 | m4t | just been googling a board im after |
| 17:54.02 | m4t | and timesys supports it. hence my interest w/them |
| 17:55.26 | CosmicPenguin | landley has an opinion? No way! |
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| 18:52.45 | Mirell | CosmicPenguin: :P |
| 18:53.40 | prpplague | i'm equally shock |
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| 19:45.34 | davidc__ | 'ay prpplage. |
| 19:45.38 | davidc__ | erm, prpplague |
| 19:45.47 | prpplague | davidc__: hey bud |
| 19:45.51 | prpplague | davidc__: what's cookin? |
| 19:51.43 | prpplague | davidc__: anything fun? |
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| 22:18.39 | dankob | Anyone have experience with Actel FPGAs? I am looking for an alternative programmer that supports Fusion devices; their programmer is quit expensive. |
| 22:19.36 | roxfan | if it has jtag you might be able to use that |
| 22:20.12 | dankob | roxfan: well I thought every vendor has their own specific protocal for programming |
| 22:21.11 | dankob | seems like JTAG isnt really that standard.. |
| 22:21.22 | roxfan | i think xilinx uses [x]svf which is basically a serialized set of jtag commands |
| 22:22.03 | dankob | mhm |
| 22:22.18 | roxfan | http://ops.actel.com/webfirstarticle/SVF.asp |
| 22:22.30 | dankob | looks |
| 22:24.34 | MonMotha | Xilinx actually documents the JTAG instructions to program the raw bitstream files their tools generate into their devices in the datasheets |
| 22:24.42 | MonMotha | you can use any JTAG head, but only the Xilinx one integrates into ISE |
| 22:24.48 | MonMotha | since ISE uses impact |
| 22:25.09 | dankob | roxfan: link is not working |
| 22:25.20 | roxfan | weird |
| 22:25.24 | roxfan | try https |
| 22:25.30 | dankob | ok |
| 22:25.38 | roxfan | "Fusion devices use industry standard JTAG programming (IEEE 1532). In addition, Fusion devices support board-level JTAG (IEEE 1149) I/O boundary scan." |
| 22:25.59 | dankob | ah okay |
| 22:26.45 | dankob | but I cant just use programmers like ByteBlaster from Altera.. |
| 22:27.07 | dankob | or can I? |
| 22:31.30 | roxfan | is it usb or lpt? |
| 22:31.33 | dankob | roxfan: here's one interesting programmer http://www.ixbat.de/index.php?page_id=221 |
| 22:31.52 | dankob | roxfan: either way is fine. i have the byteblaster clone for paraport |
| 22:32.28 | roxfan | i think openocd and urjtag support most of the lpt dongle variations |
| 22:32.39 | roxfan | and i think both have some kind of svf support |
| 22:32.47 | roxfan | so you could look into those |
| 22:34.08 | dankob | so does this mean as long as the jtag programmer supports svf format, I can just hook the programmer up with the FPGA and start doing some magic? |
| 22:35.00 | roxfan | theoretically :) |
| 22:36.29 | dankob | well would there be a driver problem since vendor design tools dont necesarily detect the hardware programmer |
| 22:36.39 | roxfan | yeah of course |
| 22:36.41 | SpeedEvil | ponders FPGAs programmed in SWF. |
| 22:36.49 | roxfan | you will have to find some way to export svf |
| 22:37.03 | dankob | great.. |
| 22:37.20 | dankob | SpeedEvil: why is that? |
| 22:38.46 | SpeedEvil | dankob: Because my mind works in odd ways. |
| 22:39.05 | dankob | haha nice |
| 22:39.57 | SpeedEvil | Seen http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php ? |
| 22:40.05 | dankob | nope |
| 22:41.07 | dankob | bbl |
| 22:41.15 | roxfan | crazy stuff |
| 22:41.48 | Mirell | is having to learn about FPGA fun stuff here... |
| 22:45.40 | SpeedEvil | Someone standing over you with a whip? |
| 22:45.46 | MonMotha | well, Lenovo has lost a customer |
| 22:46.01 | MonMotha | No way to do a clean install of the installed Windows. They actually told me to go buy another copy. |
| 22:46.04 | SpeedEvil | stabs widescreen. |
| 22:46.30 | SpeedEvil | What do you mean by clean install? |
| 22:47.49 | MonMotha | Windows install without all their bloatware |
| 22:48.49 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 22:49.06 | SpeedEvil | Can you get a rebate if you want the windows they install wiped off? |
| 22:53.20 | Mirell | Alas, Lenovo was actually rather nice. |
| 22:53.23 | MonMotha | I asked, and they said no |
| 22:53.32 | MonMotha | but I'm sure if I pushed it, they probably would |
| 22:53.35 | MonMotha | "I decline the EULA" |
| 22:53.38 | Mirell | They made the best laptops other than Apple in my opinion. |
| 22:53.46 | MonMotha | oh, the hardware is great |
| 22:54.02 | MonMotha | if they didn't pollute their software so badly, I might just use that |
| 22:54.12 | MonMotha | but Win7 should not take 1:30 to boot on a brand new PC |
| 22:54.30 | MonMotha | it ships with a copy of MSSQL server for (I think) the Bluetooth manager |
| 22:54.38 | Mirell | ... |
| 22:54.41 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 22:54.57 | MonMotha | you'd think that when somebody is installing MSSQL server on the default build they'd stop and go "wait a minute", but apparenlty not |
| 22:55.20 | Mirell | I just saw the most hacked up performance test scripts with Perl, Tcl, and C. |
| 22:55.25 | Mirell | Guess what the C was used for. |
| 22:55.47 | Mirell | ...to generate the web page, of course. |
| 22:58.34 | MonMotha | weird |