IRC log for #edev on 20091121

00:06.12MonMothawho was it that was asking for a MCU with a large number of PWM outputs?
00:06.30MonMothaI was just looking at AVR32 yesterday and noticed that even the small ones have 36+ PWM
00:06.50MonMothathey also have some DSP type features
00:32.03poakinxMonMotha: just curious, what series?
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00:39.34MirellAnd done with Tcl for the day...yay...
00:53.16MonMothapoakinx: UC3 should have PWM on every I/O
01:16.03roxfan36 o.O
01:53.41MirellI had to hurt this article: http://wiki.tcl.tk/1386
01:59.36MonMotharoxfan: Only has 36 because, in the 48 pin package, there are only 36 GPIOs :)
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02:43.26poakinxDSPs are generally harder to develop on than ARMs right?
02:46.48*** topic/#edev by Mirell -> A channel for the discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/WinCE/Commercial Device Repurposing) : Firmware Linux Discussion : Busybox and Buildroot Discussion : Gold 1151.20 : Silver 18.50
02:46.55MirellFixed that for prpplague.
03:01.07davidc__poakinx: generally, yes.
03:01.53poakinxdavidc__: ok thanks
03:03.01MonMothapoakinx: they're not generally capable of simply being programmed in C like you'd be used to, but there's often library code for the things you'd commonly use the DSP for such as video decoding, compression, etc.
03:03.15davidc__poakinx: you could also check out one of the hybrid ones, like a blackfin
03:03.56davidc__poakinx: ease of programming like a processor, but with DSP extensions
03:05.04poakinxdavidc__: so hybrids like blackfin hides the confusing part of programming DSPs?
03:05.58davidc__I don't know the blackfin DSP details - but I do know that the blackfin is better at general purpose tasks than a dedicated DSP
03:06.20davidc__DSP's aren't usually good at branching + general control operations
03:06.39poakinxokay. i've also been looking at TI's hybrid ARM+DSP solutions..
03:06.40MonMothathe idea behind those hybrid type things is that you program your regular stuff like usual then either use library code or specialized development procedures (assembly, special compiler, etc.) when you want the DSP features
03:06.55MonMothaTI is actually an ARM with a separate DSP mapped into memory rather than a CPU with DSP instructions
03:07.10poakinxso its like a dual coore?
03:07.12MonMothaARM does also have a DSP instruction extension commonly found on certain models
03:07.16MonMothait's kinda dual core, yes
03:07.20MonMothathe cores just aren't the same thing
03:07.32davidc__and the blackfin has it all crammed into one core, as I recall
03:07.49MonMothaone is an ARM (I think it's a 926EJ-S) and the other is a C6000 series DSP
03:08.08MonMothablackfin is one core that has both "typical" CPU instructions as well as DSP type instructions available
03:08.16poakinxso you actually program two separate things in TI, where as you just program one thing in blackfin
03:08.56MonMotharight
03:09.11MonMothaTI's solution is more complex, but you can do some amazing things with it
03:09.20MonMothait's meant for media oriented portables, set-tops, etc.
03:09.41MonMothawhere you have a normal OS like Linux or WinCE running and you want to accelerate certain operations such a video compression
03:09.57poakinxhm
03:10.19poakinxyeah there is a touch screen laptop based of TIs OMAP3530
03:11.30MonMothaDM64xx?
03:11.53poakinxits from alwaysinnovating.com the touchbook
03:13.04MonMothathe DM64xx is the TI part number
03:13.13MonMothathe "DaVinci Media Processor" series
03:13.28MonMothaIIRC, beagleboard uses one of them
03:13.33roxfantouch book uses omap35xx
03:13.48roxfanoh nvm
03:14.30poakinxoh
03:14.32MonMothasome of the parts have an "OMAPxxxx" part number while others are "DMxxxx"
03:14.32poakinxyeah
03:14.41roxfanda vinci is different from omaps
03:14.44MonMothaI can't understand the numbering.  I think it's just marketing.
03:14.56MonMothayeah, but at the same time the hardware is quite similar, IIRC
03:15.03MonMothaARM core paired with a C6000 series DSP core
03:15.31MonMothaI remember that if you go through the "DaVinci" portal on TI's website, you can end up with parts with both prefixes
03:16.00roxfandavinci seems to be aimed at digital imaging/video/audio appliances
03:16.10roxfanwhile omaps are for mobile devices
03:16.12MonMotharight, while OMAP is low power
03:16.23MonMothabut they are otherwise fairly similar
03:16.37poakinxso i am guessing both the davinci and OMAP are of separate ARM and DSP cores
03:17.16MonMothayes, though ARM926EJ-S does have some DSP extensions built in to the ARM core, too
03:17.26poakinxnice
03:18.20MonMothaI've seen some impressive things pulled off by pairing a DaVinci with an FPGA
03:18.28MonMothathere's not much you can't hardware accelerate at that point
03:18.58poakinxheh
03:20.44davidc__MonMotha: I'm curious about what things those would be. Can you spill the beans? or is it NDA stuff.
03:21.43MonMothathe CPU basically runs a software pipelined algorithm that either farms out each stage to the FPGA or DSP or uses the ARM DSP instructions.  The CPU is mostly just making algorithm level decisions and maybe running one stage of the pipeline.
03:22.12MonMothadavidc__: I have a couple specific things I've seen in mind, all of which I probably shouldn't talk about specifically.  Basically massive multi-channel video operations
03:22.33davidc__MonMotha: ah, cool. Completely understandable :)
03:24.02roxfanbtw TI has a $50 demo usb board for some c55x dsp
03:24.05MonMothaif you want something made, let me know :)  I've got a few projects I've been itching to tackle, but I can't justify spending the kind of money required for a hobby purpose
03:24.34MonMothaeven just splitting my expenses might make for a fun endevor
03:24.48davidc__MonMotha: speaking of random hobby projects, I'm working on an ultra cheap ARM + fpga board for people to learn with
03:24.55davidc__MonMotha: BOM cost < $25 hopefully
03:25.03roxfancortex-m0? :)
03:25.08davidc__nah, M3
03:25.23roxfanm0 is supposed to go below $1
03:25.34poakinxnice
03:25.34MonMothaI can probably come up with such a thing, but the PCB fabrication and assembly alone will blow that budget in any quantity less than 250 or so
03:25.54MonMothawhat kind of volume are you targetting?
03:26.05davidc__PCB's are cheap from china.. and I think I have a tame pick'n'place operator on the line
03:26.18MonMothaah, fun.  I usually keep my PCB production stateside.  Fewer "mishaps" that way.
03:26.24MonMothaI get decent deals from 4pcb.
03:26.31davidc__MonMotha: I've had good experience with gold phoenix before
03:26.34davidc__*experiences.
03:26.37MonMothayeah, that's who sparkfun uses
03:26.53MonMothatheir special is good if you want lots of the same of a small board
03:27.03davidc__yeah, as long as you are very explicit about what you want they're good.
03:27.11roxfanhttp://www.poscope.com/product.php?pid=22 <- 19 euro but no cpu included
03:27.34MonMothaI usually want 3-5 of a largeish, complicated board
03:27.43MonMothathe 4pcb $33/ea deal is perfect for that
03:27.52davidc__thats only 2 layers right?
03:28.03davidc__also - that doesn't include soldermask either does it?
03:28.30MonMothafull spec (silk/soldermask both sides, 6/6 line/space), but only 2 layers, yes
03:28.35MonMothathey do have a $66/ea 4-layer deal
03:28.37MonMothasame terms
03:28.54MonMothaI'm pretty good about getting things onto 2 layers if I don't care about FCC compliance
03:29.17davidc__ooh... I should look at them again
03:29.37MonMothayeah, it's actually a pretty good deal if you want a smallish number of large boards (up to 70 sq in)
03:29.51MonMothathey will let you panelize (multiple designs or step and repeat, you cut apart) for another $50 for the whole lot
03:29.54roxfanhttp://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1642.html <- m0 announcement with specs and prices
03:29.57MonMothaminimum order is 4, you get a 5th one free
03:30.52davidc__random topic, have you guys looked at that xmos processor?
03:31.18MonMothanope
03:31.24MonMothaanybody used buildroot recently?
03:31.37MonMothaI think I have an application coming up
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03:31.47davidc__interesting looking processor. They claim 400Mips, and you can get said processor in a 64LQFP package
03:31.53MonMothanice
03:32.09MonMothathe modern high-speed processors have been lacking leaded options
03:32.59davidc__the interesting bit is those processors are designed for tile-style computing
03:33.09davidc__so they have a rediculously fast off-chip bus
03:33.25davidc__and they provide an appnote + verilog to implement said bus in an FPGA
03:33.42davidc__oh, and $7.50 QTY 1
03:34.12davidc__it also has hardware mutlithreading of some kind
03:34.25davidc__I'm a bit wary about it though, the last hardware-multithreaded processor used was absolute crap
03:34.37roxfanhaha, was it propeller?
03:34.59davidc__roxfan: no, Ubicom IP3k
03:35.08roxfannever heard of it
03:35.15davidc__they're only niche in the networking sector
03:35.24davidc__yet somehow managed to sell an ex-boss on the design.
03:35.29davidc__I wanted an ARM with linux but noooo
03:35.36davidc__Put it this way.... they did SDRAM in software
03:35.40davidc__and PCI... in software.
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03:35.49davidc__and most of USB... in software.
03:35.51davidc__yeah.
03:35.56roxfanhaha
03:37.32davidc__also, their dev tools were shit
03:37.47davidc__It couldn't trace through many major events, had no way to bootstrap [needed a debug executive]
03:37.52davidc__which of course could be clobbered by a bad crash
03:39.04davidc__oh, and their OS was totally event based
03:39.07davidc__8 thread slots
03:39.18davidc__7 of which went to supporting peripherals
03:40.05davidc__So everything you wanted to do had to be segmented across a billion functions. Read some bytes from mass storage? fread(fh, count, ptr, STATE, CALLBACK)
03:40.09davidc__[/rant]
03:40.21davidc__By the way, did I mention, never use the Ubicom IP3K?
03:41.05davidc__Oh, and my favorite part was when they had a bus bitswapped in the documentation
03:41.11davidc__[0-15], rather than [15-0]
03:41.18davidc__that was some fun soldering to fix the prototype.
03:42.12roxfanmaybe someone was a fan of powerpc docs
03:42.32MonMothadavidc__: Xilinx does that, too (swapping the bit orders on certain things).  It's annoying.
03:42.34roxfan(they start counting from most significant bit)
03:42.34davidc__roxfan: oh, it was just one bus.
03:42.38MonMothaanyway, I'm going to do other stuff
03:42.46davidc__and all the other busses of the same type were 0-15
03:42.52davidc__[the bus is also a standard]
03:43.02davidc__anyhow, rant over... just a mite bit of hung over anger from that job :P
03:43.42roxfanhmm http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lpc1000/message/100
03:47.09roxfani like this price
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08:07.39landleyis redoing the RECORD_COMMANDS support in FWL.
08:07.52landleyIt's now sources/more/record-command.sh instead of a config option.
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21:03.21landleyHello world.
21:12.27likewiseecho $?
21:12.29likewise0
21:12.59likewisehello landley, that worked.
21:32.28landleylikewise: hello.
21:42.04MirellHelloHello.
22:06.27landleyHiya Mirell.
22:06.52landleySo if I'm to take over maintainership of GFS, I'm going to need a refresher, plus a description of the rewrite you wanted to do.
22:10.21Mirell"It's the Doctor..." "Oh, no, no need, I'm all right, just a slight sore throat, would like a cup of tea though..." "It's..THE...Doctor..." "Oh...oh god...oh!"
22:41.47SpeedEvilhttp://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29916 hmm.
22:42.20SpeedEvil(cheap wlan camera)
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23:15.45landleyMirell: I take it you aren't as far behind with us with the Dr. Who specials?
23:15.48landley(Waters of Mars?)
23:16.14landleyLast one I watched was "The Doctor's Daughter".  Got the next DVD sitting next to the player, though.
23:28.59Mirelllandley: Currently watching Waters of Mars now.
23:53.28calculusI think I have a usb to serial converter, but I am not sure how to use it with another board
23:53.56calculuslsusb says it is an FTDI, FT232 USB-Serial (UART) IC
23:54.43calculusone end is usb (goes to computer), the other end is an RJ-45 plug
23:55.26calculusI want to use this to program an arduino, but rj-45 is not the connector I want

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