| 00:04.02 | MonMotha | go SPICE go! |
| 00:04.15 | MonMotha | I'm simulating a whopping 121us/s |
| 00:04.27 | MonMotha | and I need to simulate about 4s :) |
| 00:08.16 | chouimat | solar: the only good thing the CEO gave in this office :good chair ... I didn't enjoy the open space much |
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| 00:28.00 | Mirell | Open space? |
| 00:40.30 | davidc__ | THE SUN... IT BURNS |
| 00:40.34 | davidc__ | [I think thats what he meant] |
| 00:44.13 | Mirell | Heh |
| 00:49.28 | MonMotha | YOUR STAR BURNS! I REQUIRE FROZEN TREATS! |
| 00:59.22 | davidc__ | haha |
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| 01:00.00 | davidc__ | Hey; you guys have probably built some real complicated boards. I'm writing an [open source] piece of software to fuse gerbers, BOM + pick'n'place centroid data into an on-screen assembly guide for hand assembly |
| 01:00.07 | davidc__ | any input / feature requests ;) |
| 01:01.00 | MonMotha | any reason a simple assembly drawing + BOM is insufficient? |
| 01:01.54 | landley | solar: ping. |
| 01:02.27 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I'm building one of these, and it has over 2000 parts |
| 01:02.36 | davidc__ | erm, 2000 SMD pads |
| 01:02.40 | davidc__ | works out to ~ 500 parts |
| 01:02.47 | davidc__ | just labelling the parts is gonna be a PITA |
| 01:04.10 | calculus | landley: arrived? |
| 01:04.44 | landley | I are at an airport. |
| 01:04.47 | landley | It is all airporty. |
| 01:05.02 | landley | Well, not _entirely_ airporty. First time I've had to deplane onto a tarmac in years. |
| 01:05.28 | calculus | I don't remember doing that at SJC |
| 01:05.32 | MonMotha | davidc__: that's what a highlighter is for |
| 01:05.42 | calculus | maybe it is all the construction going on |
| 01:05.57 | MonMotha | davidc__: what most people do is print off a few copies of the assembly drawing/BOM, highlight things that go together, and divide it into steps |
| 01:06.11 | calculus | are you planning on meeting up with solar for dinner? |
| 01:06.19 | MonMotha | if it's really complicated, you can remove BOM lines and place locations from the drawing altogether that aren't part of each step |
| 01:06.30 | davidc__ | MonMotha: Heh, thats what I usually do, but the location I'm in in right now has no printer, so that spurred me to write the software |
| 01:06.34 | landley | Just dug up his phone number from CELF last year. Might still work. |
| 01:06.47 | davidc__ | MonMotha: it'll do essentially exactly that, except using pnp centroid data rather than manual highlighting |
| 01:06.54 | calculus | I would like to partake in some munchies tonight :) |
| 01:06.57 | MonMotha | davidc__: ah, well, then I guess simulate the process on screen. Perhaps even have a step-by-step "what's next" thing that you can step through |
| 01:07.12 | MonMotha | just highlight each step's BOM line + stuff locations |
| 01:07.38 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hmm, I bet I could get it to spit out PDFs; for people who want hard copy ones |
| 01:07.41 | MonMotha | as a quick first approximation, simply highlighting each BOM line + stuff locations in a configurable order would probably work quickly |
| 01:07.56 | MonMotha | it's rare that I don't just stuff all locations for a given BOM line at once |
| 01:08.06 | MonMotha | usually only happens in the final stages due to large mechanical pieces |
| 01:08.20 | davidc__ | MonMotha: Thats precisely it - I've got 60 or so 0.1uF caps on this damn thing |
| 01:08.34 | MonMotha | maybe allow check-off highlighting of each stuff location? |
| 01:08.53 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hmm, good idea |
| 01:08.56 | MonMotha | or just step through them in some sort of reasonable geometric fashion highlighting each location as stuffed, current, or future to be stuffed |
| 01:08.57 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I was also gonna auto-split it into two passes, one for front side of board |
| 01:08.59 | davidc__ | one for back |
| 01:09.04 | MonMotha | yeah, that makes sense, too |
| 01:09.11 | MonMotha | didn't realize this was a double sided layout |
| 01:09.31 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I couldn't fit all my decoupling caps onto the top side |
| 01:09.48 | MonMotha | that happens |
| 01:09.59 | calculus | landley: I plan to leave work shortly, but you or solar can give me a call and let me know what is happening |
| 01:10.23 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, tis the life. Anyhow, I'll add the check-off mode, and PDF output for people who like hard copy |
| 01:10.29 | MonMotha | davidc__: experience has shown that on the larger packages (especially PGA/BGA/LGA) that putting them on the bottom, closer to the actual pins, is actually better, anyway |
| 01:10.31 | davidc__ | then hopefully it should be useful for people other than just me |
| 01:10.39 | MonMotha | yeah, I might find this useful |
| 01:10.42 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, lower parasitic inductances |
| 01:10.45 | MonMotha | yup |
| 01:11.09 | MonMotha | unfortunately, I don't trust myself to hand-solder a BGA |
| 01:11.18 | MonMotha | I need to figure that out, even if it's just toaster oven |
| 01:11.19 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I tried to do one in a toaster oven once... BGA caught on fire |
| 01:11.30 | davidc__ | [toaster oven thermostat was slightly hot] |
| 01:11.30 | MonMotha | yeah, it's not as simple as it first seems |
| 01:11.43 | MonMotha | I've heard of people heat gunning them down |
| 01:11.49 | davidc__ | That said, I got to look at a cool die as big as my fingernail |
| 01:11.53 | MonMotha | hotplates, too, since you can heat the bottom |
| 01:12.10 | davidc__ | yeah - I'm thinking about getting one of those $200 chinese preheaters |
| 01:12.18 | MonMotha | issue is that BGAs are usually expensive chips, and I really don't want to toast one of those |
| 01:12.24 | davidc__ | for even board-bottom preheat, then hotairing it down |
| 01:12.27 | landley | calculus: Solar's tied up until around (does quick time zone conversion) 6. I need to wrestle with the rental car counter. |
| 01:12.30 | davidc__ | yeah - I'd definitely want to get my process right first. |
| 01:12.32 | MonMotha | but it's getting quite limiting as most CPUs and FPGAs are BGA only these days |
| 01:12.47 | landley | Food would be good. |
| 01:12.48 | davidc__ | MonMotha: so far, I just use a tame boardhouse, they'll throw a CPU down with X-ray inspection for $50 |
| 01:12.54 | MonMotha | nice |
| 01:12.57 | MonMotha | I need to find one of those |
| 01:12.59 | landley | forgot to eat today. Well there were penguin mints and a giant orange-mango-passionfruit energy drink. |
| 01:13.29 | MonMotha | I've got a project where I'd like to use a Spartan-6 w/ MGTs, and those only come in BGA packages |
| 01:13.31 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I can put you in touch with my guys once I get back home if you want [Vancouver, Canada] |
| 01:13.39 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I know. Those things are droolworthy, eh? |
| 01:13.51 | MonMotha | well, I'll at least talk with them. Dunno how bad shipping will hit since I'm in USA |
| 01:13.58 | calculus | landley: ok, I am off to the train and should be back home just before 6 local time |
| 01:14.02 | MonMotha | but yeah, mind if I PM you my email? |
| 01:14.11 | MonMotha | and yes, they are droolworthy, especially at the prices they're asking |
| 01:14.14 | davidc__ | MonMotha: sure |
| 01:14.26 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I know... I've got a project in mind for them too. |
| 01:17.02 | MonMotha | I've got a really cool video based project in mind, but it won't be cheap, which is why I've been holding off |
| 01:17.14 | davidc__ | Just for fun? |
| 01:17.23 | davidc__ | or work stuff? |
| 01:17.23 | MonMotha | I'm also not sure the backplane I have can run fast enough, and I don't want to spend kilodollars on a custom backplane |
| 01:17.25 | MonMotha | yeah, just for fun |
| 01:17.56 | davidc__ | Sata cables can carry decent bandwidth. If you don't need too many pairs, just point-point with those? |
| 01:17.58 | MonMotha | I want to make a multi-channel video acquisition, timebase sync, scaler, and overlay/tile system that runs in real time |
| 01:18.10 | MonMotha | yeah, that's the other option, but then I need lots of MGTs |
| 01:18.29 | landley | is huddling in a corner with laptop, electrical outlet, and internet. Life is good, except for the "forgot to eat" part. But I have Penguin Mints! |
| 01:18.36 | MonMotha | I was also thinking SCSI cables |
| 01:18.49 | landley | (And it wasn't _all_ day. They gave me a bag of pretzels on the plane, about 3 hours ago.) |
| 01:18.53 | davidc__ | erm, no more than using a backplane, no? Whats the max frequency on those MGTs? |
| 01:18.55 | solar | mmm scsi cables. How filling |
| 01:18.56 | MonMotha | you can run each pair at about 100-250MHz on a standard SCSI 3 LVDS cable |
| 01:19.16 | MonMotha | good enough for 1080p video if you use plenty of pairs |
| 01:19.24 | landley | Given the pronunciation "scuzzy", I tend to classify them as a form of cheese. |
| 01:19.27 | MonMotha | (16 if you do 4:2:2) |
| 01:19.39 | MonMotha | I prefer "sexy" as the pronunciation :) |
| 01:20.14 | MonMotha | davidc__: the backplane I was just going to do LVCMOS and hope for the best. The MGTs were for talking to a SATA HDD |
| 01:20.28 | davidc__ | ah, gotcha |
| 01:20.36 | MonMotha | the backplane is an old VME thing so probably only designed for maybe 50MHz |
| 01:20.40 | davidc__ | you can get away with that surprisingly often |
| 01:20.43 | MonMotha | I was hoping to get it up to 100-150 |
| 01:20.44 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 01:20.52 | MonMotha | it is terminated, so that helps with integrity, but ouch on the power |
| 01:21.06 | MonMotha | big issue is how fast can I turn it around |
| 01:21.10 | MonMotha | lots of capacitance |
| 01:21.31 | MonMotha | I may be able to outdrive all that, but I don't know if I can reliably hand the bus off |
| 01:21.45 | davidc__ | Those MGTs are SATA capable? my god, I want them even more. |
| 01:23.55 | MonMotha | they should be |
| 01:24.06 | MonMotha | the ones on the Virtex series (with some caveats on Virtex2) are |
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| 01:24.13 | MonMotha | they can also do PCIe |
| 01:49.45 | davidc__ | Anyone actually had a chance to use these new chips from XMOS? |
| 01:50.06 | MonMotha | which ones? |
| 01:50.31 | davidc__ | eh, its a new weird architecture |
| 01:50.50 | davidc__ | I look at them and can never make up my mind between "Wow thats fucking fast" and "This is a terrible idea" |
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| 01:52.51 | MonMotha | heh |
| 01:52.59 | MonMotha | sounds like MAXQ |
| 01:53.15 | davidc__ | yeah... the cool bit is these really fast off-chip links [They claim 400Mbit] |
| 01:53.16 | MonMotha | MAXQ is in fact a OISC (one-instruction set computer). It has only a mov instruction |
| 01:53.50 | davidc__ | They provide verilog / VHDL to interface an FPGA to it |
| 01:55.28 | davidc__ | It seems to have fairly rabid fans, but that can be an indicator of a good or bad chip |
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| 02:19.11 | solar | calculus: rob was asking about the bus. From his hotel the the gplex it's 2 busses at 51mins. Or it's a 6 min cab ride. |
| 02:19.40 | solar | has a feeling you will talk to him in the next few mins |
| 02:20.35 | solar | or not |
| 02:21.45 | MonMotha | you know, I thought the days of waiting hours for a SPICE simulation were over |
| 02:21.56 | MonMotha | then I tried to simulate a big mess of switch mode power supplies |
| 02:22.12 | MonMotha | running from a source with large amounts of very low frequency ripple |
| 02:22.18 | MonMotha | o u c h |
| 03:22.49 | Mirell | Mmm. |
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| 07:04.13 | calculus | and here I thought odd numbered addresses were on one side of the road and even on the other, but no, let's put them both on the same side and confuse people |
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| 15:48.59 | CosmicPenguin | guhhh.... |
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| 16:00.22 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ?? |
| 16:03.25 | Mirell | HoHum |
| 16:10.04 | CosmicPenguin | I am not at all interested in babysitting reviews today - I have the future to invent |
| 16:12.36 | chouimat | morning |
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| 16:54.49 | Mirell | Babysitting reviews? |
| 16:54.59 | Mirell | "The girl just watched television and didn't follow the feeding schedule..." |
| 16:58.31 | solar | Mirell: you guys getting snow right now? |
| 17:00.37 | Mirell | solar: I have seen a whole two flakes. |
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| 18:34.14 | Mirell | Sigh. I need to find a new job... |
| 18:36.26 | prpplague | Mirell: already? |
| 18:40.37 | solar | at dinner last night landley said they are working Mirell like a dog on some really not fun projects |
| 18:46.58 | calculus | is reminded of the song A Hard Day's Night |
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| 18:50.36 | Mirell | prpplague: I'm doing a build system, and source control. And eventually a test system, integrated into the build system. |
| 18:50.51 | Mirell | prpplague: And no real way to learn anything else... |
| 18:54.36 | Mirell | While other people get to play with protocl analyzers and application simulation and other such assundries. |
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| 19:19.36 | prpplague | Mirell: lovely |
| 19:21.04 | prpplague | Mirell: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gold-futures-drop-as-much-as-16-on-globex-2009-12-03 |
| 19:24.26 | solar | was just seeing the same thing. Nearly $75 per oz in today |
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| 19:38.40 | Mirell | Heh |
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| 20:20.46 | CosmicPenguin | Improved jobs reports means a stronger dollar |
| 20:21.08 | CosmicPenguin | I know the article totally says that, but I promise I said it before I read the article |
| 21:01.07 | Mirell | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/04/aetna-forcing-600000-plus_n_380130.html? |
| 21:11.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed |
| 21:11.26 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i personally wasn't expecting the rate to drop, but that's just me, what do i know? |
| 21:12.27 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i'm still up over $300 per ounce on the gold |
| 21:14.20 | CosmicPenguin | inversely tied to the value of the dollar |
| 21:14.24 | Mirell | prpplague: SELL SELL SELL |
| 21:15.05 | prpplague | Mirell: hehe |
| 21:15.33 | prpplague | Mirell: i'm keeping it for awhile |
| 21:16.19 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 21:16.40 | prpplague | Mirell: i keep getting calls from places in austin wanting to hire |
| 21:16.52 | prpplague | Mirell: i guess they think i'm in the austin area |
| 21:16.59 | prpplague | Mirell: next one i get i'll forward to you |
| 21:19.06 | Mirell | 'k |
| 21:29.03 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ho ho hum, trying to decide what to work on since the next rev of my boards won't be in until tuesday :( |
| 21:30.42 | Mirell | Oh yay, another merge... |
| 21:30.44 | Mirell | sighs |
| 21:31.12 | prpplague | Mirell: fun fun |
| 21:31.58 | prpplague | stressing this week |
| 21:34.27 | Mirell | Whyfor? |
| 21:34.42 | prpplague | Mirell: deadline for this project is dec 21 |
| 21:34.52 | Mirell | Ahh |
| 21:35.07 | prpplague | Mirell: plus i don't have anything scheduled for jan as of yet |
| 21:35.54 | prpplague | first project for reverse engineering where i can't share my findings |
| 21:36.01 | prpplague | kind of disappointing |
| 21:36.44 | Mirell | Heh, yah. |
| 21:46.21 | MonMotha | prpplague: fyi, I do have that CAD software installed if you want me to look at anything for you |
| 21:49.01 | prpplague | MonMotha: ahh thanks for reminding me, i downloaded to 30 day trial but haven't installed it yet |
| 21:49.48 | MonMotha | prpplague: as a suggestion to make the schematic editor probably much more like what you're used to (OrCAD, Eagle, etc.), find the "Always Drag" option in the preferences and turn it on |
| 21:50.26 | MonMotha | it'll save you some hair pulling :) I'm not sure why the default is so weird, but it's at least configurable. Everything else is pretty good interface-wise, though |
| 21:51.24 | prpplague | MonMotha: i'm curious how well the import features work |
| 21:51.48 | MonMotha | prpplague: OrCAD schematic works decently. I haven't tried the Allegro or PADS importers. |
| 21:52.26 | MonMotha | some stuff from OrCAD will get turned into "graphical only", but it was never a problem for me |
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