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| 00:01.52 | endular | hi. i'm tyring to create a toolchain that can compile a kernel and i think i must be missing some packages. this is what i have so far, binutils, cpp, g++, gcc, libc6-dev, libgcc1, linux-kernel-headers, and make. kernel compilation makes it through './cofigure' and 'make dep && make clean', but it fails somewhere during 'make' every time. i'm assuming it has to do with a missing package, but as i'm trying to create a dev environmen |
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| 01:12.46 | yoawto | Hi! Is it fine to draw 2 clock lines to 2 devices from the same clock source/oscillator? |
| 01:13.47 | yoawto | devices, specifically CPLD and ARM chip |
| 01:16.02 | SpeedEvil | yoawto: it depends - generally yes - but ringing on the clock line can be a problem, and drive capacity |
| 01:17.04 | yoawto | SpeedEvil: for synchronizing communication, would it be preferred to have separate clock sources at the same freq? |
| 01:17.53 | SpeedEvil | not generally |
| 01:18.06 | SpeedEvil | generally it's simpler to use the same clock |
| 01:18.06 | yoawto | okay |
| 01:18.28 | SpeedEvil | it's just that attaching two - or even one! load to a clock source won't always work |
| 01:18.36 | SpeedEvil | it depends on the loads, and stuff |
| 01:18.48 | yoawto | i see |
| 01:19.13 | yoawto | do the value of decoupling caps need to be changed also? |
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| 01:20.48 | SpeedEvil | decoupling caps are usually irrelevant to this. |
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| 01:21.50 | yoawto | okay. how can I go about calculating whether it will support the loads? or is it pretty much unpredictable? |
| 01:23.37 | SpeedEvil | You need to work out the required rise/fall rate for each load. |
| 01:24.11 | SpeedEvil | Now, work out the capacitances and 'static' loads for the clock oscillator. |
| 01:24.22 | SpeedEvil | the inputs of the two devices and the track that is. |
| 01:24.30 | yoawto | oh, sounds complicated |
| 01:24.32 | SpeedEvil | And see if the clock oscillator can drive it. |
| 01:24.39 | SpeedEvil | What frequency? |
| 01:24.50 | yoawto | probably something close to 400MHz |
| 01:25.28 | SpeedEvil | Ok - at that level, stuff gets really quite complex, and this is more like a RF design problem - unless the tracks are _really_ short - as in 1-2cm |
| 01:26.09 | yoawto | thinks |
| 01:26.47 | SpeedEvil | Have you done any RF before? |
| 01:26.47 | yoawto | nope |
| 01:27.26 | yoawto | how about having the clock feed into ARM (at91sam) and that outputs the same clock to the CLPD? or maybe the other way around |
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| 01:30.30 | SpeedEvil | are you sure that the arm will take a clock at that frequency |
| 01:30.54 | SpeedEvil | generally it takes a much lower and PLLs itup |
| 01:31.06 | yoawto | let me double check |
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| 01:37.22 | yoawto | interesting, the at91sam9G45 has a 400-800MHz programmable PLL |
| 01:38.04 | yoawto | but its master clock freq is 133MHz |
| 01:38.24 | SpeedEvil | Fairly typical |
| 01:39.03 | yoawto | but there's another table that says crystal oscillator freq is 16MHz |
| 01:40.00 | SpeedEvil | there will typically be two PLLs |
| 01:40.17 | SpeedEvil | one which goes 16->133, one which goes 133->400/800 |
| 01:41.07 | yoawto | even though the features page says it only has 1 PLL? |
| 01:41.08 | SpeedEvil | starting out at ~12MHz is quite common - th9ough for battery stuff - 32khz also |
| 01:41.15 | yoawto | well the other one is for USB HS |
| 01:41.25 | yoawto | i see |
| 01:41.40 | SpeedEvil | pll may be the wrong term |
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| 01:43.56 | yoawto | looks back at the datasheet |
| 01:48.12 | yoawto | SpeedEvil: i am finding this pretty confusing as im new to arms |
| 01:48.50 | SpeedEvil | What are you trying to do? |
| 01:49.10 | SpeedEvil | Pretty much all small microprocessors today have a similar clocking arrangement |
| 01:49.43 | yoawto | well i just dont have much experience. only a hobbyist, no classes taken as of yet |
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| 01:52.37 | yoawto | all my resources are from the internet and only the internet :) |
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| 15:02.28 | chouimat | moring |
| 15:05.28 | prpplague | greetings frenchy |
| 15:06.50 | chouimat | prpplague: hey |
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| 15:26.33 | Mirell | Hmm...so actually had a good usage of Google Wave |
| 15:28.16 | kergoth | what's that? it doesn't seem like a good email replacement to me, doesn't nest far enough in the discussion threads, waves aren't wide enough |
| 15:30.01 | Mirell | Code writing phone interview. |
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| 15:43.12 | chouimat | prpplague: http://failblog.org/2009/12/15/begging-win/ |
| 15:45.04 | prpplague | dandy |
| 15:54.43 | PureSine_AFK | anyone knows how phase shift circuit works in old analog network analysers (Pre DSP era), I presume they were frequency independent ? |
| 15:57.43 | PureSine | I'm designing a Impedance spectrometer and I need very accurate phase shifter, is there an analog option ? |
| 16:00.23 | CosmicPenguin | sigh, GEM is the new buzzword of the week in the halls of QCOM |
| 16:00.37 | prpplague | GEM ? |
| 16:00.39 | kergoth | GEM? |
| 16:01.14 | CosmicPenguin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Execution_Manager |
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| 16:02.14 | PureSine | wow so many splits, so I have to repeat my question |
| 16:02.19 | PureSine | anyone knows how phase shift circuit works in old analog network analysers (Pre DSP era), I presume they were frequency independent ? |
| 16:02.27 | PureSine | I'm designing a Impedance spectrometer and I need very accurate phase shifter, is there an analog option ? |
| 16:02.40 | prpplague | PureSine: might be a better question for the ##electronics channel |
| 16:02.53 | prpplague | PureSine: about 90% of the folks here are pure software dev |
| 16:03.18 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh interesting |
| 16:03.37 | PureSine | oh! I didn't know that O_O |
| 16:04.27 | chouimat | needs coffee |
| 16:04.41 | PureSine | I have been in electronics but most of them were hobbyists :( |
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| 16:33.28 | prpplague | good lord, what the frak is wrong with freenode lately |
| 16:34.57 | mnemoc | oftc is *far* nicer |
| 16:35.13 | prpplague | mnemoc: indeed |
| 16:42.31 | kergoth | hasn't been on oftc in a while, wonders what channels there would be worth idling in nowadays |
| 16:43.09 | kergoth | man git rocks, but sucks so so badly for long lived branches with cherry picking :| |
| 16:43.12 | kergoth | sighs |
| 16:43.51 | prpplague | kergoth: indeed |
| 16:44.19 | kergoth | completely lose track of what has and hasn't gone in each direction.. pain in the ass.. and i have yet to find a solution I'm happy with :| |
| 16:44.53 | prpplague | kergoth: exactly |
| 16:44.58 | chouimat | kergoth: no vcs are good at the kind of thing anyway |
| 16:45.02 | kergoth | true |
| 16:45.19 | prpplague | kergoth: thats why i still use CVS for most of my applications |
| 16:46.04 | kergoth | cvs provides even fewer tools for keeping track than git does, though |
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| 16:46.40 | prpplague | kergoth: the way the history/log is presented makes it much easier for me to track things on smaller projects |
| 16:46.50 | chouimat | kergoth: at axentra we used cvs and later svn ... and I was commit the diff itself in a patch directory, just in case |
| 16:47.13 | prpplague | kergoth: granted it isn't great for everything(i concede that it isn't great for most things) |
| 16:47.15 | kergoth | http://github.com/kergoth/git-origin - playing around with out of band tracking of the "origin" commits for a given commit, so you know where it came from.. it does function, but still not really ideal :\ |
| 16:47.25 | mnemoc | go mercurial go! |
| 16:47.34 | mnemoc | :) |
| 16:47.41 | chouimat | hehe |
| 16:49.23 | prpplague | mnemoc: pretty sure kergoth has tried just about every one out there |
| 16:49.43 | mnemoc | :D |
| 16:49.59 | kergoth | i have tried them, but i'll readily admit i need to spend more time with mercurial. i don't remember seeing anything that really helped with this, though |
| 16:50.07 | chouimat | prpplague: and he finally concluded that rcs and a few pad of paper was the best ;) |
| 16:50.12 | kergoth | heh :) |
| 16:50.45 | prpplague | hehe |
| 16:50.55 | kergoth | ideally, we'd avoid maintaining very long lived branches at all, but that's easier said than done, when companies have to maintain old versions for 10 years |
| 16:51.00 | kergoth | heh |
| 16:51.03 | mnemoc | rcs is cool to keep $HOME :) |
| 16:52.11 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 16:52.31 | prpplague | kergoth: dying to tell everyone about what i'm working on, but i can't........ |
| 16:52.43 | prpplague | kergoth: AML was always so open about their projects |
| 16:52.54 | chouimat | prpplague: I know the feeling |
| 16:52.56 | SpeedEvil | Where ar ewyou working now? |
| 16:53.01 | prpplague | kergoth: this customer doesn't want anything posted or commented on until it is finished |
| 16:53.11 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: me or chouimat ? |
| 16:53.14 | SpeedEvil | you |
| 16:53.40 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i was laid off back in august, so i've gone into biz for myself |
| 16:53.49 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: contract work |
| 16:53.51 | SpeedEvil | ah. Independance. |
| 16:53.54 | SpeedEvil | Fun. |
| 16:53.56 | chouimat | SpeedEvil: for a started mozgwar technoligies ... the website is not up yet I don't have time to set it up ;) |
| 16:54.03 | chouimat | s/started/startup |
| 16:54.03 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 16:54.09 | prpplague | indeed, lots of work minding the budget/money |
| 16:54.36 | PureSine | speedevil do you know how phase shift circuit works in old analog network analysers (Pre DSP era), I presume they were frequency independent ? |
| 16:54.59 | chouimat | prpplague: I have 2 partners who are good at finding contracts |
| 16:55.11 | prpplague | chouimat: that's what i need |
| 16:55.15 | SpeedEvil | PureSine: htere are nastily complex phase shift networks, which can work over moderate frequency ranges |
| 16:55.59 | prpplague | this is my best hack since the JuiceBox, hehe |
| 16:56.05 | PureSine | is there anything can be googlesd? |
| 16:56.13 | chouimat | prpplague: we just need to finalize the paperworks but that will be sometime in the first quarter of 2010 |
| 16:56.51 | prpplague | chouimat: dandy |
| 16:56.53 | PureSine | book, article, keyword ? |
| 16:57.36 | prpplague | was tempted to rickroll PureSine |
| 16:57.37 | chouimat | prpplague: since I'm not alone we are going to incorporate in ontario and quebec, so it's a lot of legal stuff |
| 16:57.52 | prpplague | chouimat: yea safe way to go |
| 16:58.04 | Mirell | HoHum... |
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| 17:27.08 | PureSine | ##AltiumDesgner channel for professional discussions on Altium Designer EDA |
| 17:27.11 | PureSine | ##DSP for Professional discussion on Digital Signal Processing |
| 17:27.15 | PureSine | ##Analog for professional analog discussion |
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| 22:07.47 | *** join/#edev purl (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 22:07.47 | *** topic/#edev is Discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/WinCE/Commercial Device Repurposing) : Firmware Linux (FWL) : Busybox and Buildroot : http://www.elinux.org |
| 22:08.00 | landley | Hi purl! |
| 22:08.07 | landley | How goes bot-dom? |
| 22:08.30 | landley | purl: be more social. How are you ever going to pass the turing test if you don't practice? |
| 22:08.32 | purl | landley: okay |
| 22:09.23 | landley | Now you're just humoring me. |
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| 22:10.36 | prpplague | ho ho ho |
| 22:10.41 | prpplague | merry freakin tuesday |
| 22:10.56 | kergoth | hmmmm.. e2factory is cute.. limited due to relying on chroots rather than qemu, but cute |
| 22:11.24 | Mirell | landley: So odd question. Is there a way to get access to proc inside a chroot if not root? |
| 22:12.26 | prpplague | landley: from what i heard freenode is suppose to be under a DDoS attack |
| 22:14.24 | landley | It's a really good think I can't reach back four years to taiwan and smack some random realtek developer. |
| 22:14.34 | roxfan | -christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, as the europeans among us are already aware from earlier, we are experiencing heavy DDoS directed at several locations. |
| 22:14.36 | landley | Otherwise I'd be tempted to do something impolite with a large wet cold item of some sort. |
| 22:14.56 | landley | kergoth: what's e2factory? |
| 22:15.07 | landley | Mirell: hmmm... |
| 22:15.20 | kergoth | http://e2factory.com/ |
| 22:15.24 | landley | How did you do a chroot if you weren't root? |
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| 22:16.26 | landley | kergoth: e2factory is licenced under the GPLv3. |
| 22:16.29 | kergoth | build tool, project-based, relies on chroot, hashes build input & output and automatically caches build output to/from a shared backing store, lua for configuration. definite limitations, but the features are nice |
| 22:16.30 | landley | Not interested. |
| 22:16.46 | landley | And I make system images without qemu, I use genext2fs. |
| 22:16.53 | landley | (Or squashfs, or cpio...) |
| 22:17.10 | Mirell | landley: It's a login shell that drops you into a chroot'ed environment |
| 22:17.37 | landley | Whoever set up the chrooted environment really should have mounted /proc for you. |
| 22:17.45 | landley | That's pretty much what the kernel-side design guys were thinking, anyway. |
| 22:18.12 | landley | Unfortunately bind mounts require root access so you can't bind mount over /etc/passwd and sudo your way to root. |
| 22:18.19 | landley | Um, su your way, anyway. |
| 22:18.38 | landley | Symlinks won't traverse chroot. You can't hard link directories for a number of reasons... |
| 22:18.41 | kergoth | it has too many limitations to be of much use to me either, but the handling of the build input & output is interesting. requires the use of git to store the project area too, which is a serious flaw, big companies want to store things in their current scm, not swich to something new just to use a build tool |
| 22:18.44 | kergoth | ponders |
| 22:19.00 | landley | How is the handling of input and output interesting? |
| 22:19.11 | landley | wonders if he should extend FWL to do something new... |
| 22:19.54 | landley | "The first open source release of the tool that has been in use at emlix for a long time now". |
| 22:19.57 | landley | That's nice. |
| 22:20.28 | landley | So as with the releases of mozilla, openoffice, openwatcom, and so on, a new community will spring up from zeus's forehead and dragon teeth to maintain it from a standing start. |
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| 22:20.45 | landley | Without any sort of ramp-up. |
| 22:21.19 | landley | Somebody needs to write a sequel to The Cathedral and the Bazaar describing actual open source project lifecycles and workflow... |
| 22:23.46 | landley | kergoth: build input and output are interesting? |
| 22:24.09 | kergoth | the fact that it keeps track and automatically caches build output for subsequent builds and the rest of the team. |
| 22:24.25 | SpeedEvil | 'all bugs are shallow with enough eyes' spectacularly fails on much code |
| 22:24.30 | landley | Ah. |
| 22:24.41 | landley | SpeedEvil: yup. |
| 22:25.06 | landley | There's rate of change of introduction of new bugs. |
| 22:25.11 | SpeedEvil | The number of users that can work a DMM, and do kernel hacking forex is _teeny_. |
| 22:25.13 | landley | There's number of people who understand the problem domain. |
| 22:25.46 | landley | There's number of people who actually look at your code, which in the case of 8 gazillion bootloaders may be "3 people for this particular fork"... |
| 22:25.59 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 22:26.01 | landley | Having that argument on the CELF list. Wolfgang Denk participated. :) |
| 22:26.08 | landley | Strangely, I'm on his side for once... |
| 22:26.10 | SpeedEvil | That and 'it's opensource - everyone can fix it!' |
| 22:26.16 | landley | can != will. |
| 22:26.18 | SpeedEvil | 'find - find me this mythical anyone'. |
| 22:26.23 | SpeedEvil | s/find/fine/ |
| 22:26.37 | SpeedEvil | Openmoko suffered from that. |
| 22:26.40 | landley | Ah, no g on the end of the s/. Right. |
| 22:26.55 | landley | shrugs. |
| 22:26.57 | SpeedEvil | Well - that - and a leader with 'vision' |
| 22:27.08 | landley | I'm trying to make FWL the best build system I can. And a large part of that is tightly limiting its scope. |
| 22:27.16 | landley | Do one thing and do it well. |
| 22:27.35 | SpeedEvil | Which changed every 3 months, with no notice other than 'something is coming and it'll be really cool!' a few weeks beforehand at a conference. |
| 22:27.42 | SpeedEvil | yeah. Limited scope is good. |
| 22:27.53 | landley | kergoth: I offload that problem to existing package management systems, like portage and dpkg and such. |
| 22:28.14 | SpeedEvil | OM - done right - could have had a working phone in consumer hands by xmas 2007. But... |
| 22:28.20 | landley | Bootstrap a build environment, reduce problem to an existing solution. |
| 22:28.33 | SpeedEvil | I now have a n900 - which actually has no major hardware issue. |
| 22:28.48 | landley | Speaking of which, I think I still need to get Mirell some documentation so he can rewrite Gentoo From Scratch. |
| 22:29.09 | landley | speedEvil: Cool. How long ago did they stop manufacturing it? |
| 22:29.49 | kergoth | i should play with firmware Linux some more, i like the concept, and the limited scope |
| 22:30.02 | SpeedEvil | landley: it's not actually stopped being made - or at least there are still available stocks |
| 22:30.19 | landley | kergoth: I'm here to answer questions if you have any to ask. :) |
| 22:30.38 | landley | SpeedEvil: wow. I'm used to "this hardware is fully supported" meaning "we stopped changing it a couple years back". |
| 22:31.05 | SpeedEvil | landley: the FR actually has slightly redacted schematics available. |
| 22:31.19 | landley | Highly cool. What's an FR? |
| 22:31.23 | SpeedEvil | the n900 - the kernel is entirely opensource with no blobs |
| 22:31.27 | SpeedEvil | Freerunner - openmoko |
| 22:31.29 | kergoth | if qemu was as good then as it was now, I probably wouldn't have started OE. it's really just portage+cross, or target package agnostic debuild.. and its a beast as a result |
| 22:32.06 | landley | I thought OE was ipkg based? |
| 22:32.19 | kergoth | nah, it can emit tarballs, ipk, deb, rpm currently |
| 22:32.23 | landley | gentoo-embedded is portage+cross, except solar keeps grumbling about wanting to retire... |
| 22:32.27 | kergoth | uses yum to construct rpm based filesystems, etc |
| 22:32.41 | kergoth | just most of its distros use opkg |
| 22:32.43 | SpeedEvil | never sat down and understood OE. |
| 22:32.56 | SpeedEvil | Was used on the build process for openmoko |
| 22:33.02 | SpeedEvil | Well - still is. |
| 22:33.07 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: it takes a twisted mine, hence the reason it was developed by kergoth |
| 22:33.07 | kergoth | SpeedEvil: heh, that's the biggest barrier people run into, wrapping their heads around it :) |
| 22:33.10 | landley | keeps sitting down to understand things, wandering away, and coming back to find the thing has completely changed design twice. |
| 22:33.12 | prpplague | jokes with kergoth |
| 22:33.45 | landley | kergoth: did I ever point you to my Big Evil Presentation? |
| 22:33.51 | prpplague | landley: oxford corp just called, hehe |
| 22:34.04 | landley | prpplague: I miss the recruiter I used to have there. |
| 22:34.12 | landley | The new guy's well meaning and (so far) completely useless. |
| 22:34.24 | kergoth | landley: nope, what presentation? |
| 22:34.24 | SpeedEvil | I tend to go with 'meh - screw this crosscompiling' and just do it on the device. |
| 22:34.32 | prpplague | landley: ruth? |
| 22:34.51 | prpplague | landley: yea, i just talked to Allan he seems nice |
| 22:35.04 | prpplague | landley: we'll see how he does |
| 22:35.17 | landley | kergoth: the PDF of the slides is http://impactlinux.com/fwl/downloads/presentation.pdf and the text of 'em is http://impactlinux.com/fwl/presentation.html |
| 22:35.19 | prpplague | landley: this contract is up soon so i gotta start looking |
| 22:35.40 | landley | prpplague: Ruth was cool. I'm not sure who the new guy is, I think they broke up her accounts when she left. |
| 22:35.47 | landley | You may have a different new guy. |
| 22:36.06 | landley | SpeedEvil: I take the same approach, but replace "qemu" for "the device". |
| 22:36.32 | landley | Build natively under emulation. Just _one_ context, nothing to confuse with anything else. |
| 22:36.40 | prpplague | <SpeedEvil> The number of users that can work a DMM, and do kernel hacking forex is _teeny_. |
| 22:36.48 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: you find that the case? |
| 22:36.50 | landley | Then add in distcc calling out to the cross compiler to speed things up a bit, but your build logic still doesn't have to care. :) |
| 22:36.53 | prpplague | landley: ahh |
| 22:37.07 | landley | Whatsa DMM? |
| 22:37.16 | prpplague | landley: the "new guy" gave me the impression that ruth was still there |
| 22:37.19 | landley | is having acronym-fu problems today. |
| 22:37.26 | prpplague | Digital MultiMeter |
| 22:37.48 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: based on the number of people able to work out some _really_ simple issues on the openmoko hardware |
| 22:37.50 | landley | Last time I used one of those was college, I think. |
| 22:37.58 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: hmmd |
| 22:38.00 | kergoth | working around crosscompilation issues isn't terribly difficult, usually, but it definitely introduces complexity into the tools, and builds in the build machine environment rather than a self contained environment (chroot or a qemu or similar) means things are decidedly nondeterministic |
| 22:38.26 | calculus | I like my digital multimeter... most of the time I use it to check DC voltage in batteries |
| 22:38.40 | landley | kergoth: I covered a few of the issues in the presentation. Read that and then I can rant about more. :) |
| 22:38.47 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i would have expected more to be familiar with hardware |
| 22:38.48 | kergoth | wonders how much work itd be to hook up firmware Linux to buildbot / hudson / what have you, letting those build tools handle the high level dependencies and pulling bits together |
| 22:39.01 | kergoth | reads the presentation |
| 22:39.03 | landley | There's actually an mp3 of Mark and me giving the related talk at Ohio LInuxFest. But alas, the audio glitches every 30 seoncs or so... |
| 22:39.23 | landley | kergoth: I'm happy to help hook it up. What's buildbot/hudson? |
| 22:39.37 | landley | We have a cron job that calls it to do nightly snapshots of busybox, uclibc, and kernel git versions. |
| 22:39.43 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: the openmoko folks should have given me a call, hehe |
| 22:39.51 | kergoth | hudson's a continuous integration server, one of those ones that does builds based on commit triggers |
| 22:39.53 | kergoth | ah, nice |
| 22:41.42 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: The problem was they had _major_ corporate issues. |
| 22:41.43 | landley | kergoth: ah. |
| 22:41.46 | landley | In theory, it should work fine. |
| 22:41.46 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i'll be the first to admit i'm not the smartest at a lot of things, but give me a piece of hardware and tell me to make it work, i do |
| 22:41.46 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: They at one point appointed a liason for the community->engineers |
| 22:41.49 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: Who diddn't really speak english. |
| 22:41.56 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: hehe |
| 22:41.58 | SpeedEvil | She did however have very nice breasts. |
| 22:41.58 | SpeedEvil | But - ... |
| 22:42.04 | prpplague | 8) |
| 22:42.04 | landley | Not really a relevant technical contribution, alas. |
| 22:42.08 | SpeedEvil | no. |
| 22:42.10 | SpeedEvil | That, and the engineering people not really getting open-source. |
| 22:42.38 | landley | See "need to write sequel to CATB", above. |
| 22:42.38 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: PC "nice breasts"=="robust software" |
| 22:43.19 | SpeedEvil | As well as there being no real interaction with the community - due to the random chunks of code landing with no notice - everyone assumed stuff was being worked on internally. And there was no list of stuff that wasn't being worked on. |
| 22:43.19 | prpplague | i found a new program to add to my debug arsenal last week |
| 22:44.02 | prpplague | jeeze |
| 22:44.02 | SpeedEvil | Hence some of the kernel bugs - serious ones that prevent suspend have only been solved after a couple of years. |
| 22:44.59 | prpplague | when did vapier start lerking here |
| 22:44.59 | SpeedEvil | DDOS apparantly |
| 22:44.59 | prpplague | <SpeedEvil> As well as there being no real interaction with the community - due to the random chunks of code landing with no notice - everyone assumed stuff was being worked on internally. And there was no list of stuff that wasn't being worked on. |
| 22:44.59 | prpplague | yea i gather from the smattering of s3c24xx patches that were never mergered into mainline |
| 22:44.59 | landley | is not a fan of vapier. |
| 22:44.59 | landley | I think I've lost respect for his technical judgement, alas. |
| 22:44.59 | prpplague | *cough* me either |
| 22:44.59 | SpeedEvil | For example - only now are 24xx clock speed patches hitting upstream. |
| 22:44.59 | SpeedEvil | Which are kinda important in a phone |
| 22:45.20 | landley | SpeedEvil: the central problem is the phone companies wanting to lock in customers on their networks. |
| 22:45.20 | prpplague | this is such a lovely fb test app http://gitorious.org/linux-omap-dss2/omapfb-tests/blobs/master/test.c |
| 22:45.31 | SpeedEvil | landley: quite irrelevant in this case. |
| 22:45.31 | landley | They subsidize the hell out of the phone they do sell, in exchange for long-term contracts on the service. |
| 22:45.39 | prpplague | i've added it to my test app hall of fame right next to devmem2 |
| 22:46.09 | prpplague | and evtest |
| 22:46.12 | landley | Meaning no phone company is ever going to offer an open phone to their customers, so your selection marketing partners is essentially nonexistent, and your manufacturing economies of scale are unlikely to go anywhere cheap. |
| 22:46.17 | SpeedEvil | landley: yes - but the openmoko devices were never subsidised by anyone |
| 22:49.49 | landley | And that was before android came along. |
| 22:50.14 | landley | (Although I'm not a big fan of android yet either.) |
| 22:50.14 | SpeedEvil | landley: that wasn't really an issue. The issue was complete mismanagment. |
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| 22:50.57 | landley | SpeedEvil: I was following OpenMoko back when it was Harald Welte's day job. Not so much since. |
| 22:50.57 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: openmoko was a confirmation of the screw ups on the OLPC project |
| 22:50.57 | kergoth | landley: not sure if the presentation is old, but modern crosscompilers are relocatable. MV ships codesourcery toolchains as installers which default to ~/montavista for MVL6. course, that's one tiny point among many valid ones in this list :) |
| 22:50.57 | SpeedEvil | landley: the first gen hardware was a phone that was not particularly shiny, but OK. With minor polish of the march 2007 software stack, it'd have had a linux phone that made calls, texts, had several days battery life, in xmas 2007. |
| 22:50.57 | landley | Don't get me started on OLPC. |
| 22:50.57 | kergoth | keeps reading |
| 22:50.57 | landley | We want to do an embedded device. Let's partner with Red Hat! |
| 22:50.57 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: they duplicated the exact same problems |
| 22:50.57 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 22:50.57 | prpplague | and use x86 |
| 22:50.57 | landley | kergoth: they're relocatable in theory. In practice, results vary. :) |
| 22:50.57 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: I never understood the descision to go with 'sugar' |
| 22:50.57 | Mirell | Hmm... |
| 22:50.57 | Mirell | needs to read up on Hudson |
| 22:50.57 | kergoth | haven't seen any complaints thus far, and we get to yell at CS if it breaks :) |
| 22:50.57 | landley | Kergoth: the presentation as a whole is ~3 months old. Bits of it are older. |
| 22:50.57 | landley | SpeedEvil: so it had the potential to ship only a few months after the original iPhone? |
| 22:50.57 | prpplague | needs to get back on adding commands to fwl |
| 22:50.57 | landley | If all had gone well? |
| 22:50.58 | SpeedEvil | prpplague: Also - the 'next gen' OM hardware ended up with a 'graphics accellerator' - that when the hardware was worked out - was on a 7M/s bus. And that blocked the rest. |
| 22:50.58 | landley | needs to get back to adding lots more documentation to FWL. |
| 22:50.58 | landley | SpeedEvil: OW! |
| 22:50.58 | SpeedEvil | landley: pretty much. But the focus was on next gen hardware being really shiny and fast and fixing it all. |
| 22:50.58 | kergoth | OE does solve some of this, but definitely not all. (there are 4,800+ unique recipes now, all of which crosscompile). i wonder how much work it'd be to just make a more native distro-wide opkg builder built on top of fwl |
| 22:50.58 | landley | That... That... |
| 22:50.58 | SpeedEvil | and that blocked CPU while transfers were happening |
| 22:50.58 | landley | 8-bit ISA was faster than that, I think? |
| 22:50.58 | kergoth | poners |
| 22:50.58 | kergoth | ponders, too |
| 22:50.58 | landley | Hang on, megabit or megabyte? |
| 22:50.58 | SpeedEvil | landley: It was at best a wash - at 400MHz - with the 200MHz predecessor. :/ |
| 22:50.58 | SpeedEvil | megabyte |
| 22:51.09 | landley | Ok, not AS bad, and the display was presumably the size of a quarter, but still. |
| 22:51.09 | SpeedEvil | 640*480 |
| 22:51.13 | prpplague | landley: vga |
| 22:51.14 | landley | 8 bit color? |
| 22:51.16 | SpeedEvil | 24 |
| 22:51.17 | prpplague | landley: 24 |
| 22:51.21 | prpplague | doh |
| 22:51.42 | kergoth | chuckles at "ambient flora on the department's Exchange server" |
| 22:51.58 | landley | So if all went well you could completely update it 7x per second. Except presumably your I/O to storage goes through the same bus? |
| 22:52.02 | SpeedEvil | landley: yes - if they had polished the first gen hardware and software stack - xmas 2007 wasn't unachievable. A linux phone, with xterms. |
| 22:52.18 | SpeedEvil | landley: yes - SD card also hung off that bus. |
| 22:52.41 | SpeedEvil | landley: and that's 7x/s with 0 CPU left over. |
| 22:53.17 | SpeedEvil | The GPU as it turned out when looked at in detail was really designed for qvga |
| 22:53.23 | landley | kergoth: I vaguely recall talking to some of the OE guys (or was it the scratchbox guys) back at the CELF thing at OLS 2006. I gave a lightning talk on compiling under emulation, and they were very interested. |
| 22:53.33 | landley | Whoever it was went with qemu application emulation instead of system emulation, though. |
| 22:54.27 | SpeedEvil | Fun. |
| 22:54.59 | landley | A lot of stuff falls in the "earthshaking 3 years ago, meh today" category. |
| 22:55.54 | landley | What FWL does now was pretty much unique when I started the project and set goals. Now, there are so many build systems you can't even survey 'em. *shrug* |
| 22:56.27 | landley | I think mine's the only one with a real emphasis on orthogonal layers, for what that's worth. :) |
| 22:56.53 | SpeedEvil | what is application emulation? wine instead of vmware (neglecting whole instruction set thing) |
| 22:57.03 | landley | speedevil: sort of. |
| 22:57.09 | landley | QEMU has two modes. |
| 22:57.40 | landley | If you run "qemu-arm ls -l" it will look for an ARM ELF binary named "ls", launch it, and translate its system calls. |
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| 22:58.16 | landley | If you run qemu-system-arm it'll look for a Linux kernel or a filesystem image or whatever the command line arguments point to, fire up a virtual arm motherboard with virtual attached peripherals, and run the emulated system. |
| 22:58.34 | SpeedEvil | Some things seem to be going the other way. |
| 22:58.35 | landley | The first emulates an application, the second emulates a standalone system. |
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| 22:59.44 | landley | Ah, netsplits. |
| 23:00.05 | landley | SpeedEvil: the other way? |
| 23:00.58 | prpplague^2 | argh |
| 23:01.11 | prpplague^2 | ho ho hum |
| 23:01.44 | prpplague^2 | landley: before you move to googleland, gonna have to make a trip to austin for a beer together(yes i know you don't drink) |
| 23:01.44 | landley | prpplague^2 you presumably can re-nick now. |
| 23:01.53 | landley | Woot. |
| 23:02.24 | landley | Too bad you weren't here this weekend, there was a Webcomics Weekend thing. |
| 23:02.24 | landley | plaguester? |
| 23:02.44 | plaguester | landley: just being silly |
| 23:02.44 | landley | Ah. |
| 23:02.44 | plaguester | landley: complete worn out |
| 23:02.44 | plaguester | landley: i get silly when i'm tired like this |
| 23:02.46 | landley | I know the feeling. |
| 23:02.58 | plaguester | landley: just manged to get the last part of this reverse engineering project figured out |
| 23:03.37 | landley | Cool. What were you reverse engineering? |
| 23:04.06 | plaguester | well i just got the ok to talk about it, hehe |
| 23:04.17 | plaguester | i just finished reverse engineering the display module inside the toyota prius |
| 23:04.28 | landley | Cool. |
| 23:04.39 | landley | I was unaware it had one. |
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| 23:05.17 | plaguester | landley: yea it has a 800x480 display connected to a MIPS processor |
| 23:05.29 | landley | Why were you reverse engineering the display in a prius? |
| 23:05.41 | plaguester | landley: controls all the engine and electronics |
| 23:05.55 | kergoth | jesus freenode |
| 23:05.56 | landley | The word "display" might not have been the phrase I'd have used, there. |
| 23:06.03 | plaguester | landley: to add a linux based system to the car of course!! |
| 23:06.20 | landley | kergoth: it's a ddos. Can't really blame freenode. |
| 23:06.28 | kergoth | ah it is? that sucks |
| 23:07.04 | plaguester | landley: adding bluetooth,wifi, 3g/4g support, _and_ full electric options |
| 23:07.12 | landley | kergoth: -christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, as the europeans among us are already aware from earlier, we are experiencing heavy DDoS directed at several locations. |
| 23:07.19 | kergoth | ah |
| 23:07.27 | plaguester | landley: as includes MP3 playback and interfaces for iphone and ipods |
| 23:07.41 | mnemoc | sweet |
| 23:07.44 | landley | plaguester: cool, so anybody who can find an exploit in the wireless stuff can _also_ control the car's engine and electronics. |
| 23:07.55 | mnemoc | :D |
| 23:08.06 | landley | Remote controlled cars FTW! |
| 23:08.07 | plaguester | landley: hehe, indeed |
| 23:08.52 | landley | (Just remember the trick is to explicitly order it to drive you into the river when it's already trying to do that.) |
| 23:08.55 | plaguester | landley: shall i add a back door user: landleymustrulethecar ? |
| 23:09.06 | landley | Although it helps to be David Tenant. |
| 23:09.12 | plaguester | landley: indeed |
| 23:09.23 | plaguester | landley: sontarian invasion? |
| 23:09.34 | landley | presumably. |
| 23:09.53 | plaguester | landley: waters of mars is on next sunday |
| 23:10.30 | landley | I'm still halfway through last season. (Netflix.) |
| 23:10.39 | plaguester | landley: ahh |
| 23:11.53 | plaguester | mnemoc: oh and for those people who have the non-navi prius models, you can add a gps receive and google maps |
| 23:14.14 | landley | Addition's higher priority than ~, right? |
| 23:15.46 | prpplague | jeeze |
| 23:19.33 | landley | Nope, ~ is higher than addition. (It's unary + that would be higher. Sigh.) |
| 23:19.44 | kergoth | landley: excellent presentation, nice work. (also, ⥠keynote). re the ./configure slowness, did you investigate the autoconf configure cache? it can be very helpful, most of the time seems to be spent running core macros, which all autoconf based projects run, and which cache their results |
| 23:20.01 | landley | prpplague: appropriate music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGdrMOttV_s |
| 23:20.01 | landley | kergoth: thanks. |
| 23:20.02 | landley | kergoth: yes, the problem with the cache is keeping it in sync. You might as well just cache the resulting binaries. |
| 23:20.04 | prpplague | love weird al |
| 23:20.07 | landley | They don't clearly denote which tests are generic and which are specific to a project or to a target. |
| 23:20.08 | landley | And then there's version skew... |
| 23:20.09 | kergoth | hmmmm, fair enough |
| 23:20.09 | landley | It's possible that somebody with more familiarity with autoconf could come up with a better solution. |
| 23:20.16 | landley | My general response to autoconf is "kill it with fire". |
| 23:20.33 | prpplague | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw |
| 23:20.46 | landley | I debug it with a rusty chunk of rebar, wielded with great ferocity. |
| 23:21.24 | landley | kergoth: we are looking into caching the binaries. Or more accurately, mirell is, in the Gentoo From Scratch stuff. |
| 23:21.31 | landley | Since portage already has infrastructure for that. |
| 23:21.41 | landley | The lower layers I'm trying to keep simple. |
| 23:22.21 | kergoth | I've played with ccache before, but i think doing it at that low a level is a mistake, and when it breaks, oh its spectacular, and you fight with it for days before suspecting a corrupt object in the cache :) |
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| 23:22.42 | landley | prpplague: it keeps saying "an error occurred please try again later". |
| 23:23.06 | kergoth | packaging level will probably work better |
| 23:23.06 | kergoth | oh thank god, the day is almost over |
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| 23:23.06 | prpplague | landley: jeeze |
| 23:23.06 | landley | kergoth: there's a reason I haven't done it yet. :) |
| 23:23.07 | prpplague | landley: weird al's white and nerdy |
| 23:23.07 | landley | prpplague: I own the album. :) |
| 23:23.20 | landley | Actually I believe I own all of them except internet leaks and the funky back-compilations ala the food album. |
| 23:23.21 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 23:23.35 | landley | (And yes, somewhere I have a _casette_ of his original album from 1979.) |
| 23:24.23 | prpplague | remembers seeing UHF at the movie theater |
| 23:25.18 | landley | Odd, it says http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xEzGIuY7kw was removed by the user. |
| 23:25.26 | landley | The user was _weird_al_. |
| 23:25.31 | landley | And it's still listed in his videos. |
| 23:25.35 | landley | Hey youtube, what the...? |
| 23:25.35 | prpplague | thats odd |
| 23:25.41 | prpplague | indeed |
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| 23:26.30 | landley | Huh, I'll poke him on twitter and see if he notices... |
| 23:26.36 | prpplague | hehe |
| 23:26.43 | prpplague | landley: amish paradise is pretty dandy too |
| 23:28.25 | landley | Heh: http://twitter.com/alyankovic/people-i-am-sleeping-with |
| 23:29.22 | SpeedEvil | The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. |
| 23:29.37 | SpeedEvil | ah - there it goes |
| 23:39.32 | prpplague | landley: give you $20 if you understand more than 20 words - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1nCR0-TAM |
| 23:42.09 | prpplague | heads home |
| 23:42.25 | prpplague_afk | later folks |