| 00:01.18 | prpplague | no, they replicas of the original US gov issued one |
| 00:01.30 | SpeedEvil | 99% gold free! |
| 00:01.35 | SpeedEvil | 99.9% even |
| 00:01.47 | SpeedEvil | There is about $1 of gold in it. |
| 00:01.56 | SpeedEvil | a real coin would have about $1000 |
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| 02:33.12 | landley | Happy new year. |
| 02:33.42 | SpeedEvil | :) Verily! |
| 02:34.43 | SpeedEvil | is celebrating the new year by rsyncing his laptop to his phone as the laptop hd is making noises. |
| 02:45.09 | prpplague | landley hey crackster |
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| 03:28.52 | landley | Hi prpplague. |
| 03:28.57 | landley | what does "crackster" mean in this context? |
| 03:29.23 | landley | speedevil: I got one of them terabyte usb drives for that. rsync works on local filesystems too. :) |
| 03:29.42 | SpeedEvil | landley: yeah. |
| 03:30.02 | SpeedEvil | landley: But with phone I just have to hit 'go'. With usb drive I have to find the damn PSU |
| 03:30.14 | SpeedEvil | Which I've no idea where it is. |
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| 03:46.13 | landley | Mirell: ireland's blasphemy law is disturbing, but no more so than the US's "Communications Decency Act". |
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| 03:54.49 | SpeedEvil | Is that the anti-nipple-law? |
| 04:27.04 | Mirell | It's the, you may not insult any religion law. |
| 04:28.47 | ds2 | isnt that singapore-ish? |
| 04:29.44 | Mirell | ds2: http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/01/01/233249/Irelands-Blasphemy-Law-Goes-Into-Effect |
| 04:32.25 | ds2 | hmmm so it would be illegal to insult the king of england ? hmmm |
| 04:44.54 | Redhatter | Well, that'd be difficult as we have a queen ruling England at the moment. |
| 05:02.29 | ds2 | is she the head of the church of england? |
| 05:03.29 | Redhatter | She is IIRC, which would mean it'd be illegal to insult her... but my point was, we cannot possibly insult the "king" of England as we do not have one at this present time ;-) |
| 05:03.54 | ds2 | fair enough |
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| 05:42.52 | Mirell | http://i.imgur.com/fwFUf.jpg |
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| 06:00.48 | landley | HA! |
| 06:00.59 | landley | It took two weeks to figure out how to deal with the toolchain stuff, but I finally figured it out. |
| 06:01.29 | Mirell | Oh. |
| 06:01.35 | Mirell | landley: http://i.imgur.com/fwFUf.jpg |
| 06:01.49 | landley | Make the native toolchain build script completely separate, and then have root-filesystem.sh pick it up if it's there (the same way record-commands.sh works). |
| 06:02.11 | landley | So if you build a native toolchain before you build root-filesystem.sh, then your root filesystem will incorporate the native toolchain. And if you didn't, it won't. |
| 06:02.39 | landley | That way, record-filesystem.sh isn't calling the toolchain script, so breaking it out doesn't add to the tangle of "this calls that which calls that but also from there" which was just getting _insane_. |
| 06:02.58 | landley | Mirell: I saw your twitter about that, yes. :) |
| 06:03.07 | Mirell | ALL THESE STREETS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA |
| 06:03.09 | Mirell | ATTEMPT NO PARKING THERE |
| 06:03.20 | landley | But can you park a monolith there? |
| 06:03.44 | Mirell | Monolith can do what it damn well pleases. |
| 06:03.52 | landley | is really liking his Omega 3 placebo pills. |
| 06:04.10 | landley | They're "molecularly distilled", whatever that means. |
| 06:04.19 | Mirell | ? |
| 06:04.28 | landley | (Apparently it means "the fish oil they contain is in a highly advanced form of jello." |
| 06:04.32 | landley | P.S: ) |
| 06:04.54 | Mirell | ...? |
| 06:05.02 | landley | Mirell: Omega 3 fatty acids. |
| 06:05.09 | Redhatter | You sure there isn't something else in those pills? |
| 06:05.13 | Mirell | Yes, thank you, I know what Omega 3 is. |
| 06:05.22 | Mirell | What do you mean placebo pills, and why do you like them? |
| 06:07.29 | landley | I have pills with omega 3 fatty acids in them. We got them at central market. |
| 06:07.42 | Mirell | Right. |
| 06:07.58 | landley | I suspect the majority of the "I fell better after a couple days of taking these with meals" is from the placebo effect more than from the nutritional supplementness, but I'm pretty happy with the result anyway. |
| 06:08.14 | Mirell | Ahah. |
| 06:08.27 | landley | At a guess, "fell better" means your condition improved due to black magic. That's possible too. |
| 06:08.55 | Mirell | You fall a lot, or only when it strikes your fancy? |
| 06:08.56 | landley | Redhatter: nope. Not a clue. Some clear liquid, tastes very fishy when I bit one accidentally. |
| 06:09.30 | landley | "Fell smarter, not more often." |
| 06:09.39 | Redhatter | is certain there is something fishy about them. |
| 06:11.00 | landley | Yay placebo effect. Placebos are cheap. |
| 06:11.26 | landley | And considering I've been through SEVEN ROUNDS of antibiotics for the same darn sinus infection over the past 2-3 years, the fact placebos have fewer side effects is kind of appealing too. |
| 06:11.40 | landley | (And hey, who knows, adding more Omega 3 fatty acids to one's diet is unlikely to hurt.) |
| 06:14.03 | landley | (I note that the pills mention they're cholesterol free.) |
| 06:14.25 | landley | This reminds me of when mayonaise started advertising "0g carbs" on the lid. |
| 06:14.45 | landley | "Do not eat freshness packet. Keep in bottle." |
| 06:15.33 | landley | Hmmm... Darn it. |
| 06:15.45 | landley | The external native toolchain I was building was forced static. |
| 06:15.56 | landley | I'm forcing busybox static too. |
| 06:16.28 | landley | Don't wanna build it twice, that's one of the big things about this reorg... |
| 06:17.03 | landley | Ah, I can use the same BUILD_STATIC=none thingy I was using for busybox. "You don't want it static, you have that option." |
| 06:18.00 | landley | Darn it, the find command doesn't support bash {} syntax. This should be fixed. |
| 06:32.18 | landley | Hmmm, where to put the new compiler script... |
| 06:43.38 | Mirell | landley: Speaking of antibiotics: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_he_me/when_drugs_stop_working_norway_s_answer |
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| 06:51.23 | landley | Mirell: norway sounds sane. |
| 06:51.57 | landley | Capitalism has some interesting side effects, mostly to do with "creating demand". |
| 06:52.24 | landley | Marvelous mechanism for managing scarcity. Sucks at managing things that aren't scarce, and has a nasty tendency to _create_ scarcity where it doesn't otherwise exist. |
| 06:52.27 | Redhatter | Making cheap junk that breaks down being one of these side effects? |
| 06:53.14 | Redhatter | i.e. unfixable, so throw out and buy new. |
| 06:53.26 | landley | Country full of woodlands, empty space, and clean water? It's free, it costs nothing, so use as much of it as possible for even slight savings elsewhere. Chop 'em down, fill it up, use it up, and then once you start running out, you have scarcity to manage and we know how to do that... |
| 06:54.37 | landley | Also a nasty tendency to try to "corner the market" on things that were previously cheap, restricting people's ability to get previously widely available things until they're willing to pay through the nose for what's left. |
| 06:55.16 | landley | (See just about every capitalist company's approach to the internet. Comcast, riaa, mpaa, etc...) |
| 06:55.45 | landley | We're currently dealing with it in health care. All the old doctors who used to make house calls are gone, their practices bought up by HMOs and bundled. |
| 06:56.36 | landley | Pharmaceutical companies never invest in "therapy" (like chest percussion for cystic fibrosis) because they can't restrict the supply and sell each dose. |
| 06:57.38 | landley | Sigh. Capitalism is very good at certain things. Capitalist systems out-evolve non-capitalist ones on a lot of fronts. But we treat it like it's this flawless thing with no downsides, and that's simply not the case... |
| 06:58.20 | landley | Redhatter: that's not a big gripe with me. I love disposable plates and cups and forks. They're cheap and convenient and I hate doing dishes. |
| 06:58.42 | landley | If the materials aren't going to run out and the landfills don't fill up, I'm fine with them. |
| 06:59.03 | ohsix | blame friedman |
| 06:59.09 | landley | Kinky? |
| 06:59.38 | landley | Friedman who? |
| 07:00.07 | landley | Milton? Thomas? |
| 07:00.15 | landley | Adam Smith was 200 years ago. |
| 07:00.41 | landley | The romans had capitalism. (Didn't stop the empire from falling. Contributed to both the rise and the fall of the empire, actually.) |
| 07:01.12 | ohsix | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman |
| 07:01.13 | landley | Part of what made 'em great, part of what did 'em in. A bit like fire that way, it's not good or bad in itself, it's all a question of what you use it for... |
| 07:01.39 | landley | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith |
| 07:01.44 | ohsix | ya but perceptions being what they are, its a modern thing |
| 07:03.47 | landley | ohsix: nah. London turning into a smog-filled dickensian horror of squalid starvation and debtor's prisons happened centuries ago, and they got over more than a century ago too. |
| 07:03.56 | landley | The industrial revolution, don'tcha know? |
| 07:04.47 | ohsix | i thought for sure you were talking about the new financial religion friedman fostered |
| 07:04.54 | landley | Pure capitalism is basically a complicated form of linear algebra. The numbers say child labor is a profitable thing, and if "profitable" is the only definition of good, that's what you go with until enough people decide elsewise. |
| 07:05.01 | landley | ohsix: nah. |
| 07:05.28 | landley | The current crop of greedy ex-nixon bastards is just wave. There's a social pendulum, every couple generations. |
| 07:06.02 | landley | FDR's programs laid the groundwork for several decades of prosperity, and the people cashing in on it honestly don't understand where the boom came from. |
| 07:06.43 | landley | Just as the surge of science education after sputnik laid the grounds for the US to take the technology lead. (The electronics research during and german scientists looted from world war II helped as well, of course.) |
| 07:07.47 | landley | These days, our schools are crap and most of our scientists are either over 40 or self taught, thanks to Regan slashing the budget and class sizes going through the roof. *shrug* |
| 07:07.47 | landley | It's like when Carly Fiorina cut the R&D budget at HP, giving them a number of nice quarters back then and absolutely horrible performance today. |
| 07:07.53 | landley | Short term vs long term. The japanese understood that. |
| 07:08.05 | ohsix | heh she was worshipped for that too, funny you mention that in particular |
| 07:08.25 | ohsix | if people can make money and get out they aren't interested in anything else |
| 07:08.51 | landley | (The japanese also couldn't deal with the real estate bubble that gave us the 1990 S&L crisis, the loss of face of bankruptcy was too great so they held on until 1997 or so when the crash was much bigger. Still haven't quite recovered from that...) |
| 07:09.07 | landley | ohsix: study roman history sometime, this is nothing new. |
| 07:09.09 | ohsix | and its not a bad way to go if you can keep rolling forward, might be riskier than something more stable but you cant fault people for doing things that are against their interest |
| 07:09.32 | landley | You can fault people for short-term thinking, sure. |
| 07:10.12 | landley | People who run up credit card bills and live beyond their means are being stupid. We all agree. Most people do it anyway. *shrug* |
| 07:10.22 | ohsix | japan has been in a "crisis" from most peoples perspective for 20 years or more, just on their economic performance not being as robust as some other made up number |
| 07:10.50 | landley | Eh, I don't claim to be an expert on japan. |
| 07:11.35 | ohsix | that is to say that until extremely recently, japan internally was "japan ok", while not being outsider ok, investments dont flow in |
| 07:11.48 | landley | Once upon a time, I had to keep up to date with this stuff to write about it, ala http://www.fool.com/portfolios/RuleMaker/1999/RuleMaker990317.htm |
| 07:11.51 | landley | That was a long, long timme ago. |
| 07:12.08 | landley | japan's always been insular to the point of xenophobia. |
| 07:12.35 | landley | Every once in a while the outside forces its way in, from admiral perry to McArthur, and then they get stockholme syndrome and beat us at our own game for a while. |
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| 08:18.24 | landley | Oh wow, figuring out how to properly handle the darn native toolchain made the rest of root-filesystem.sh _so_much_easier_... |
| 08:59.59 | landley | And busybox source control is horked. |
| 09:00.44 | landley | Or at least http://git.busybox.net/busybox is saying "Unknown branch: master" and my attempts at pulling from the repository are not succeeding. |
| 09:16.11 | Mirell | Sadness, the monolith is not there anymore. |
| 09:16.13 | Mirell | Just drove by. |
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| 09:26.36 | Mirell | landley: You have sudo on the busybox server? |
| 09:26.39 | Mirell | landley: Figured out the issue. |
| 09:30.03 | landley | Mirell: if I can remember my password, I have sudo, yes. |
| 09:30.06 | landley | What's the issue? |
| 09:30.22 | Mirell | Ah, yes, you don't join #uclibc anymore, I just described it there. |
| 09:30.27 | landley | Note that I submitted a trouble ticket to osuosl. |
| 09:30.33 | Mirell | /var/lib/git/busybox.git/refs/heads/master needs to have +r |
| 09:30.34 | landley | So in theory they'll fix it in the morning. |
| 09:30.44 | landley | how did the +r get removed from it? |
| 09:30.47 | Mirell | o+r, rather. |
| 09:30.50 | landley | Weeeeird. |
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| 09:32.13 | Mirell | -rw-rw-r-- 1 vda busybox 41 Sep 12 10:47 1_14_stable |
| 09:32.13 | Mirell | -rw-rw-r-- 1 vda busybox 41 Dec 12 19:01 1_15_stable |
| 09:32.13 | Mirell | -rw-rw---- 1 vda busybox 41 Jan 1 18:57 master |
| 09:32.31 | Mirell | And note http://git.busybox.net/busybox/log/?h=1_15_stable works. |
| 09:33.16 | landley | Sigh. No, I don't remember my password. I'll ask 'em to reset it. |
| 09:33.18 | Mirell | So yah, if you can add o+r, that'll fix it. |
| 09:33.29 | Mirell | And I doubt OSUOSL will fix the the git issue. |
| 09:33.41 | Mirell | They do more, server maintenance, not application. |
| 09:35.13 | landley | Mirell: we allowed the box to be reinstalled with gentoo precisely so they'd take over the application parts of system administration. |
| 09:35.21 | landley | Before it was a hand-rolled debian that Erik had put together. |
| 09:35.48 | landley | They have a "standard image" they use, and we're using a variant of that so that they feel comfortable administering it. |
| 09:36.09 | Mirell | So they'll touch the files inside your source control system? |
| 09:36.12 | Mirell | That's rather scary. |
| 09:36.38 | landley | Mirell: in theory they don't do much of that, but in practice I have no idea who broke this in the first place. |
| 09:36.51 | Mirell | landley: vda is Denys? |
| 09:37.37 | landley | Mirell: Um, possibly? |
| 09:38.06 | Mirell | landley: Yep. I assume he had the permission set oddly on his box when he did a push, since he's the last to edit that file. |
| 09:38.12 | landley | Yup, /etc/passwd says that's him. |
| 09:38.36 | landley | I have no idea how git does pushes. I treat git as a horrible read-only thing. |
| 09:38.47 | Mirell | How does Mercurial do pushes? |
| 09:39.02 | landley | Mirell: I do 'em via rsync? :) |
| 09:39.08 | landley | I pull, then rsync. |
| 09:39.09 | Mirell | Yes, that's wonderfully distributed. |
| 09:39.36 | landley | In theory there are ways to allow multiple people to commit to the same repository, but the ones I've actually _seen_ are variants of ssh tunneling into the box and doing a commit. |
| 09:40.14 | landley | The distribution is in allowing people to have trees you pull from, or to send you import/exports in batches. |
| 09:40.35 | landley | You may have noticed I break tools. |
| 09:40.47 | Mirell | I also notice you use tools in a very centralized single-user mode. |
| 09:41.08 | landley | Depends on the tool. |
| 09:41.22 | landley | And what I'm trying to accomplish. |
| 09:41.30 | Mirell | Anywho. |
| 09:41.35 | Mirell | Sadness the monolith is no longer there. |
| 09:41.42 | landley | You mentioned this thing. |
| 09:41.54 | landley | I take it the monolith did not have the appropriate parking sticker? |
| 09:41.57 | Mirell | Apparently the photo was taken just off of Parmer. |
| 09:42.01 | Mirell | No idea. |
| 09:44.14 | Mirell | I checked to make sure it wasn't staking out other moons. |
| 09:44.23 | Mirell | Like Phoebe and Ganymede. |
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| 09:51.26 | landley | Mirell: are they in Austin? |
| 09:53.41 | Mirell | landley: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=europa+st.,+austin,+tx&sll=30.289236,-97.741928&sspn=0.047878,0.090895&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Europa+Ln,+Austin,+Travis,+Texas+78727&ll=30.428777,-97.72532&spn=0.008992,0.02547&z=16 |
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| 10:07.24 | Redhatter | http://olimex.com/dev/avr-tlcd-128can.html <-- Anyone played with those/have any experiences worth sharing? |
| 10:07.39 | Redhatter | In particular, I'm wondering what the Linux development/debugging tools are like for these things. |
| 10:09.20 | Redhatter | Intended project: Remote interface to one of these things: http://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=102&encProdID=0372FA803B7BBADBF3076C94ACA7A8C5&DivisionID=65&isArchived=0 |
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| 14:33.05 | Spida | Redhatter: there is avr-gcc and avr-libc |
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| 21:38.20 | Redhatter | Spida: How about avr-gdb/avr-insight? |
| 22:07.10 | *** join/#edev pirho (i=pirho@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x2CEEC9CB) |
| 22:11.19 | MonMotha | Redhatter: nice radio. They just keep cramming more stuff into them. |
| 22:11.52 | MonMotha | as for avr-gdb and avr-insight, they work fine. You'll need a jtagICE mk2 and avarice |
| 22:12.34 | Redhatter | Ahh right :-) |
| 22:13.36 | Redhatter | http://www.dontronics-shop.com/avr-usb-jtag.html <-- That thing do the trick? |
| 22:14.18 | Redhatter | Can't seem to find the MkII |
| 22:43.50 | MonMotha | the only way to get a mkII is from ATmel |
| 22:43.57 | MonMotha | the original JTAGice has been cloned, but not the mk2 |
| 22:44.06 | MonMotha | the original one only works (slowly) on really old stuff |
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| 23:04.37 | Redhatter | Hmmm, trouble is getting my hands on one. |
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| 23:11.00 | Redhatter | Those JTAGice MkIIs are insanely expensive |
| 23:11.12 | HcE | get an AVR Dragon then |
| 23:11.35 | Redhatter | Are they compatible with gdb/insight though? |
| 23:12.49 | HcE | hmm, good call, avarice supports AVR Dragon IIRC |
| 23:12.59 | HcE | but I would guess JTAGICE mkII is more mature |
| 23:16.00 | Redhatter | Yeah, this is what drives me nuts though... they're targetting the big end of town, who can afford to throw away thousands on a development environment. I can't :-| |
| 23:16.23 | Redhatter | I appreciate the guidance however :-) |
| 23:19.25 | Redhatter | Basically I'm wanting a small MCU with a graphic touchscreen... ideally reflective B/W type... and RS232. |
| 23:19.54 | Redhatter | Only requirement on the MCU is that I have to be able to easily program and debug it with freely available tools, as my budget is tight. |
| 23:20.48 | SpeedEvil | umm... |
| 23:20.57 | SpeedEvil | Graphic touchscreen will adds lots to the cost |
| 23:21.18 | SpeedEvil | most require you to output the whole image for the screen 50/60 times a second |
| 23:21.26 | SpeedEvil | and your small MCU just can't do that. |
| 23:21.42 | HcE | nope |
| 23:21.47 | HcE | get a screen with a framebuffer |
| 23:22.02 | HcE | Redhatter: perhaps the XMEGA devices fits your need? |
| 23:22.32 | HcE | I've hooked a 320x240 16bpp LCD to an XMEGA and run graphical stuff |
| 23:22.58 | HcE | don't remember what kind of LCD it was, but it was with resistive touch |
| 23:23.18 | SpeedEvil | yes - the screens with framebiffer tend to be less cheap |
| 23:23.27 | HcE | the XMEGA took care of the graphics and used the ADC for the touch part |
| 23:23.48 | HcE | depending on your memory needs, you could get away with only one MCU |
| 23:23.56 | HcE | and no other external ICs |
| 23:24.06 | Redhatter | http://www.olimex.com/dev/avr-tlcd-128can.html <-- As I say... this is what I was looking at. |
| 23:24.25 | Redhatter | Pretty much perfectly meets my needs ... if I can get the tools to develop the software on it. |
| 23:25.05 | SpeedEvil | Redhatter: it depends. |
| 23:25.22 | Redhatter | I can get hold of one for AU$172.87+GST which isn't too expensive. |
| 23:25.27 | SpeedEvil | Redhatter: for $90 there are ARM 2440 devices with 3.5" toyuchscreen, wifi, ... |
| 23:25.40 | SpeedEvil | s/wifi/ethernet/ |
| 23:26.03 | SpeedEvil | http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mini2440-S3C2440-ARM9-Board-3-5-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen_W0QQitemZ120468760959QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0c7f697f&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177 |
| 23:26.12 | Redhatter | wifi isn't needed in this case |
| 23:26.35 | Redhatter | Problem with using eBay, is 99.9% of the sellers with those things expect people to have Paypal... I don't. |
| 23:26.51 | SpeedEvil | Why not? |
| 23:27.06 | SpeedEvil | For buyers, paypal is pretty much without issue. |
| 23:27.24 | Redhatter | I don't have those facilities available on my bank account. |
| 23:27.54 | SpeedEvil | you can also link it to a credit card. |
| 23:28.13 | Redhatter | I haven't got a credit card |
| 23:28.15 | SpeedEvil | Or a debit card IIRC |
| 23:28.20 | Redhatter | Or a debit card |
| 23:28.40 | Redhatter | My only means of payment is money order or direct deposit. |
| 23:31.21 | Redhatter | http://www.luminarymicro.com/products/rdk-idm-l35.html <-- That's the other one I was looking at. |
| 23:42.39 | *** join/#edev m4t (i=matt@theorize.org) |
