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| 00:33.53 | prpplague^2 | CosmicPenguin hehe |
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| 00:50.40 | Mirell | You guys remember why you did the bad hacks? |
| 00:50.52 | Mirell | I more or less go, "What the hell, why did I overcomplicate these..." |
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| 01:07.58 | prpplague | Mirell yea i say the same thing "whatthe hell, why did Mirell overcomplicate these...." |
| 01:08.11 | prpplague | jokes with Mirell |
| 01:15.11 | madsy | The worst example I can remember was something like: int atoi(const char* s){ int l=strlen(s)-1, accum=0; while(*s){ int d=*s-'0'; accum+=d*pow(10, l--); } return accum; } |
| 01:15.34 | madsy | Which I coded dead drunk on a demoparty with no sleep for two days straight. |
| 01:16.04 | madsy | We got a good laugh, so it was worth it. |
| 01:16.44 | SpeedEvil | atoi functions should always be reentrant - for the lulz. |
| 01:28.00 | Mirell | Thanks prpplague |
| 01:28.08 | prpplague | Mirell hehe |
| 01:29.02 | prpplague | i did some really nasty code for some IBM PoS peripheral drivers on time when i was down in the bahamas, we had like 72 hours to get the store up on a new system and i'd been up for like 36 hours |
| 01:29.28 | prpplague | i went back down there about a year later and i was like WTH is this @#$@#$ |
| 01:29.53 | prpplague | is headed to barbados on thursday |
| 01:32.46 | solar | nice |
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| 01:47.09 | prpplague | solar work though :( |
| 01:47.22 | prpplague | i will find time for some rum :) |
| 01:49.16 | prpplague | solar so the guy that was doing the network for my brother-in-laws gas stations paid $10K+ each for some cisco routers |
| 01:52.02 | prpplague | solar http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps6845/index.html |
| 01:52.32 | prpplague | solar now why in the world would you need that sized switch for a gas station with one pos over a 56k leased line? |
| 01:54.05 | SpeedEvil | because he can 'justify' charging $10K+ for it as it has lots of blinkenlights. |
| 01:54.15 | SpeedEvil | (not having looked at said swithc) |
| 01:59.45 | MonMotha | prpplague: Low power consumption! It's only 400W! :) |
| 02:00.07 | MonMotha | what I want to know is why you need fiber at all for a gas station, much less gigE fiber and 32 ports at that |
| 02:00.42 | SpeedEvil | The high res VR3D holographic billboards outside. |
| 02:00.52 | MonMotha | I'm also not sure why that would cost $10k |
| 02:00.59 | MonMotha | looks more like a $4-5k device |
| 02:01.46 | SpeedEvil | It's called profit. |
| 02:01.54 | SpeedEvil | :/ |
| 02:02.21 | MonMotha | I'm figuring resale cost... |
| 02:03.16 | MonMotha | I believe you can get 24-32 port gigE switches with pretty good QoS functions for like $1k, but they're copper |
| 02:03.30 | MonMotha | the fiber bumps that up a lot, but I wouldn't think by that much |
| 02:28.56 | Mirell | Fiber SFPs are EXPENSIVE |
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| 02:45.38 | MonMotha | Mirell: understood, but 8 grand? |
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| 03:17.12 | Mirell | $300 a pop |
| 03:17.14 | Mirell | At least |
| 03:20.26 | MonMotha | woah, I didn't realize they were that expensive in volume |
| 03:26.13 | prpplague | i suspect that the guy was getting kick backs and was really going over board |
| 03:26.31 | prpplague | going down to clean up the mess and get things organized |
| 03:29.23 | Mirell | MonMotha: For the ones that don't randomly die on you |
| 03:29.34 | Mirell | MonMotha: We have the cheapo $40 at work |
| 03:30.05 | Mirell | MonMotha: But you wouldn't want those unless you got 40 more laying around |
| 03:30.16 | Mirell | MonMotha: And don't mind random failures |
| 03:31.53 | prpplague | 12 gas stations at $10k is a mess |
| 04:12.35 | *** join/#edev _ABC (n=me@pool-72-66-59-113.washdc.east.verizon.net) |
| 04:12.56 | _ABC | Hi all, just a quick question, can vias take the place of BGA pads? |
| 04:13.09 | MonMotha | yes and no |
| 04:13.13 | MonMotha | it's called "via in pad" |
| 04:13.24 | MonMotha | if you use blind vias or plate them shut, it can work |
| 04:13.34 | MonMotha | if they are open through the board, it can cause assembly issues |
| 04:13.48 | _ABC | i see |
| 04:14.22 | _ABC | so if I want it to reach the bottom most layer, I would have to fill the hole right? |
| 04:14.41 | MonMotha | the trick usually is to make the via so small it plates shut or "cap" the bottom of the via |
| 04:15.02 | MonMotha | the latter still causes some issues during reflow, but it usually works |
| 04:15.18 | MonMotha | similar problems to soldering down the exposed pad on QFNs when there is a via grid below it |
| 04:15.26 | MonMotha | you get voids in the joint sometimes |
| 04:15.28 | _ABC | hm, batchpcb has a minimum drill size of 13mil |
| 04:15.37 | MonMotha | x-ray inspection is mandatory, and there will be some rework required on a percentage of units |
| 04:15.49 | MonMotha | what BGA pitch are you working with? |
| 04:16.05 | _ABC | 0.8mm, BGA324 |
| 04:16.13 | MonMotha | IIRC, batchpcb can only do 6/6 (or 7/7 even?), which is not sufficient for anything more than 1mm |
| 04:16.14 | _ABC | and one BGA256 |
| 04:16.19 | MonMotha | heh, Atmel part? |
| 04:16.26 | MonMotha | they love those 0.8mm TFBGA324s |
| 04:16.30 | _ABC | yes, and one altera part |
| 04:16.37 | MonMotha | is this the 91SAM9263? |
| 04:16.38 | _ABC | great |
| 04:16.44 | _ABC | close |
| 04:16.45 | _ABC | 9G45 |
| 04:16.53 | MonMotha | hum, must be a newish one |
| 04:17.00 | _ABC | yes very new |
| 04:17.22 | _ABC | its a great SOC |
| 04:17.33 | MonMotha | the way I did 0.8mm (and 0.75mm) fanouts was I think 8 mil finished holes + 5 annular ring so 13mil pad size and 4/4 line space |
| 04:17.35 | _ABC | $20 though iirc |
| 04:17.51 | MonMotha | the 9263 was weird. It apparently had a built-in non-functional GPS receiver |
| 04:17.59 | MonMotha | and the pinout was terrible |
| 04:18.01 | _ABC | wow fabricating the board must be pretty expensive |
| 04:18.07 | MonMotha | yes, it was an expensive board |
| 04:18.19 | MonMotha | took 8 layers to get it fanned out and power back in due to the craptastic pinout |
| 04:18.31 | MonMotha | Atmel needs to learn about the wonders of the center cutout |
| 04:19.06 | MonMotha | if you can find a fabricator that will bend the IPC rules a bit, you can do 10-11 mil pad size for the vias and get by with 5/5 |
| 04:19.10 | _ABC | yeah,, you mean the BGAs with nothing in the center and pins surrounding it? |
| 04:19.23 | MonMotha | or a center island of just ground, yeah |
| 04:19.27 | _ABC | i see |
| 04:19.35 | _ABC | i was thinking of a 4 layer board |
| 04:19.38 | MonMotha | so like 3-4 rows on the outside, a void area, then maybe a 4x4 grid of ground in the middle |
| 04:19.54 | _ABC | mhm |
| 04:20.08 | MonMotha | 4 layers to fan out a 324? I don't think that's possible |
| 04:20.16 | MonMotha | you've got 9 rows on a side |
| 04:20.20 | _ABC | right |
| 04:20.33 | MonMotha | that may be possible with blind vias, though |
| 04:21.00 | _ABC | i am thinking of using the "center cutout" by distributing the signals to 4 different layers |
| 04:21.22 | _ABC | so like the inner square goes to the bottom most layer |
| 04:22.07 | _ABC | then the 2 outer most rows/columns goes to the top most layer |
| 04:22.13 | MonMotha | the issue is that you'd need to bring out 2 signals per layer on all 4 layers, but without blind vias, you only get 2 on top, 2 on bottom, and 1 on the rest |
| 04:22.21 | MonMotha | that's only 6 rows |
| 04:22.43 | _ABC | hold on, batchpcd doesnt to blind vias? |
| 04:22.48 | MonMotha | doubtful |
| 04:22.57 | MonMotha | it's a rather custom, expensive service |
| 04:23.03 | _ABC | great.. |
| 04:23.07 | MonMotha | basically, each drill pair has to be done separately |
| 04:23.38 | _ABC | i was hoping to get this board ~$100. but realistically it seems more like $300 |
| 04:23.53 | MonMotha | for a single board? keep going... |
| 04:24.10 | _ABC | probably 2 boards one run for prrototype |
| 04:24.10 | MonMotha | I don't see how you can fan out a 324 completely on less than 6 layers |
| 04:24.31 | MonMotha | and you'll need either 4/4 or you'll have to cheat the IPC specs on the vias (unless you can find someone who can do 8 mil finished holes) |
| 04:24.49 | _ABC | that'll be hard |
| 04:25.33 | _ABC | just wondering, have you had experience with gold phoenix? |
| 04:26.22 | _ABC | it seems ridiculuously expensive to me |
| 04:27.32 | bsdfox | _ABC: get a carrier for your chip |
| 04:27.45 | MonMotha | gole phoenix? they're CHEAP |
| 04:27.47 | MonMotha | *gold |
| 04:27.56 | MonMotha | you could look into a "fanout interposer", yes |
| 04:28.21 | bsdfox | yeah they're cheap but I doubt they'll do a bga |
| 04:28.41 | MonMotha | they'll make anything within their capabilities |
| 04:28.47 | MonMotha | but I don't think they can even do 5/5, let alone 4/4 |
| 04:29.19 | bsdfox | yeah |
| 04:29.52 | _ABC | they charge additional $80 for 4mil trace/spacing |
| 04:29.56 | bsdfox | I've had a couple sheets made there and their quality isn't great |
| 04:30.04 | MonMotha | they claim they can do 4/5 on 1/2oz outers, 4/4 on 1/2oz inners |
| 04:30.16 | MonMotha | I use Advanced Circuits. Not cheap, but outstanding quality. |
| 04:30.22 | MonMotha | and they're not "expensive", either |
| 04:30.36 | _ABC | okay |
| 04:31.55 | _ABC | bsdfox: could you elaborate on how their quality isnt great? |
| 04:32.00 | MonMotha | I actually just put in an order with 4pcb today... |
| 04:32.08 | _ABC | batchpcb uses gold phoenix though |
| 04:32.30 | _ABC | checks 4pcb |
| 04:33.05 | bsdfox | _ABC: they don't get the copper etched perfectly all the time |
| 04:33.12 | MonMotha | 4pcb can do 4/4 on 1/2oz inners and 1oz outers, and they can do 3/3 on 1oz outers for a big fee |
| 04:33.13 | bsdfox | and their silk screen was smudged a bit |
| 04:33.29 | _ABC | i see |
| 04:33.32 | _ABC | thanks |
| 04:33.42 | bsdfox | if you want quality don't go to the cheapest place in china |
| 04:33.47 | MonMotha | yeah... |
| 04:33.52 | _ABC | haha |
| 04:34.20 | _ABC | by the way, what does internal routing mean? |
| 04:34.30 | MonMotha | the one time I had an issue with a PCB from advanced circuits (big blob of copper in the middle of the board - I did not buy e-test), they replaced it free of charge with the replacement on my doorstep next morning |
| 04:34.38 | MonMotha | and I bought it on the student deal with ground shipping! |
| 04:34.48 | _ABC | nice! |
| 04:34.50 | MonMotha | internal routing usually refers to internal cutouts like slots |
| 04:35.01 | _ABC | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:35.22 | MonMotha | if not part of the panelization process, that would probably be considered internal routing, yes |
| 04:35.51 | _ABC | oh i see |
| 04:36.37 | _ABC | it seems to me that e-test isnt that essential for a prototype run? |
| 04:36.54 | MonMotha | depends |
| 04:37.18 | _ABC | ? |
| 04:37.19 | MonMotha | sucks to bring up a prototype not knowing if the issues you're seeing (usually there are some) might be related to a PCB defect |
| 04:37.46 | MonMotha | and PCB defects, while usually easy to see on a 2 layer and somewhat possible to inspect on a 4 layer are usually impossible to spot on higher layer counts by visual inspection |
| 04:38.40 | _ABC | so this mainly deals with the vias |
| 04:38.55 | MonMotha | e-test? |
| 04:39.08 | _ABC | mhm, vias and traces? |
| 04:39.16 | MonMotha | e-test is just to catch any fabrication errors. They compare all the exposed copper points on the board with the intended netlist. |
| 04:39.26 | MonMotha | so it'll catch any errors that lead to shorts/opens |
| 04:39.46 | _ABC | i see |
| 04:39.58 | MonMotha | especially important if you're right at the edge of their production capabilities or you're using a cheap house with "lesser" equipment and CAM practices |
| 04:40.44 | _ABC | ok |
| 04:40.49 | MonMotha | I usually consider E-test mandatory on anything 6 layers and up, 4 layers I play it by ear (mostly a cost concern; if I've got the budget, I'll buy it), and usually just visually inspect 2 layer boards |
| 04:40.55 | MonMotha | in prototypes |
| 04:41.06 | MonMotha | in production, e-test is mostly NRE, so I always go for it |
| 04:41.24 | _ABC | i agree |
| 04:41.54 | MonMotha | if you hand assembled the boards, e-test is less necessary, too, since you're more likely to notice errors |
| 04:42.33 | MonMotha | most quality board houses will replace boards with production errors even if e-test wasn't purchased, but they're not liable for parts you get soldered down to the defective boards or any time you spend troubleshooting to discover the defect |
| 04:43.12 | _ABC | that's nice |
| 04:47.56 | prpplague | Mirell ping |
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| 05:25.06 | Mirell | prpplague: Yosh |
| 05:26.38 | Mirell | prpplague: What's up? |
| 05:40.52 | Mirell | Fascinating |
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| 07:05.35 | Mirell | prpplague: Next time say what you were going to say. |
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| 14:29.47 | Sak1s | hello room |
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| 14:30.45 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
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| 14:37.27 | kergoth | morning |
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| 15:20.02 | chouimat | morning |
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| 16:11.21 | sjhill | good morning prpplague |
| 16:11.29 | kergoth | morning prpplague, sjhill |
| 16:11.34 | sjhill | hey kergoth |
| 16:11.39 | prpplague | greetings earthlings |
| 16:12.19 | sjhill | man i need to find somebody with a fast upload pipe that i can get a shell account on |
| 16:12.25 | sjhill | any volunteers? |
| 16:15.06 | sjhill | all because my work proxy sucks |
| 16:35.23 | madsy | sjhill: If you can wait a month or two, no problem ;) |
| 16:35.28 | madsy | Until my fiber line arrives |
| 16:35.45 | madsy | 100 mbit full duplex for the win |
| 16:37.39 | sjhill | whoa |
| 16:39.20 | chouimat | hi prpplague sjhill kergoth |
| 16:39.24 | kergoth | hey chouimat |
| 16:41.40 | Mirell | prpplague: You awake now? |
| 16:48.02 | prpplague | Mirell: yep |
| 16:48.08 | Mirell | prpplague: What'd you ping for? |
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| 16:48.17 | prpplague | Mirell: one sec |
| 16:49.07 | sjhill | howdy chouimat |
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| 18:07.33 | Chocobo | Is it legal in a linker script to have more than one output section with the same name? for example, there is certain .text sections that I want to have different VMA and LMAs ... not sure how to do that without having multiple .text : {} sections. |
| 18:19.38 | Chocobo | .something : { *(.text) } >A AT >B <----- this should put .text at B in the elf file correct? and all references to functions in .text should be at address A right? Hrmm |
| 18:21.24 | madsy | ld linker scripts are pretty arcane :-) |
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| 18:36.22 | Chocobo | I am going crazy... I know what I think it should do... but it isn't |
| 18:37.06 | Chocobo | It doesn't help that I am trying to do it so I can remap stuff... which is also confusing. |
| 18:57.34 | solar | sjhill: how much disk space do you need? |
| 18:57.41 | solar | or not. |
| 19:21.33 | Mirell | Woo, iPad. |
| 19:22.37 | madsy | Haha.. yeah. What a crud. |
| 19:22.59 | madsy | With those prices, Apple just got a license to print money |
| 19:23.25 | SpeedEvil | No. That's the iForge. |
| 19:23.36 | madsy | I wonder how many will be stupid enough to buy one. |
| 19:24.17 | madsy | 150 USD difference for just adding 3G? I hope they're joking. |
| 19:24.36 | madsy | And their 250 MiB/month plan.. hilarious. |
| 19:26.42 | SpeedEvil | I am reminded again just how damn good my toshiba portege 3110ct was. (after re-celling) - it would get 8h - weighed 1.1Kg, had a 10" screen - good keyboard, and a nice metal case. |
| 19:29.27 | armin76 | anyone has to donate a mwc2010 pass? :) |
| 19:29.33 | armin76 | s/has/wants |
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| 19:39.59 | prpplague | ho oh hum |
| 19:40.26 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: trying to get fedora up and running on a touchbook i got used |
| 19:40.42 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: no cdrom and it doesn't support usb boot devices, hehe |
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| 19:53.15 | _ABC | MonMotha: does advanced circuits charge extra for solder mask and silkscreen? do they have a minimum order quantity or minimum board size? |
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| 19:55.27 | prpplague | _ABC: AC has a wide range of prepackaged items that include a max/min board size as well as min orders |
| 19:55.46 | prpplague | _ABC: if you can fit your design into one of their prepackaged deals you will save a ton of money |
| 19:56.07 | _ABC | prpplague: i see. i am trying to find their page on deals |
| 19:56.52 | prpplague | http://www.4pcb.com/ |
| 19:58.00 | _ABC | prpplague: by the way, do you recommend any fab houses or have a favorite? |
| 19:58.18 | prpplague | _ABC: i use AC alot for small production |
| 19:58.29 | prpplague | _ABC: everything else i go overseas for large production |
| 19:58.37 | _ABC | ok |
| 20:21.45 | armin76 | prpplague: put gentoo on it :D |
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| 20:38.18 | prpplague | armin76: do most of my dev under redhat/fedora |
| 20:39.07 | Chocobo | I/me is looking for a linker script expert :) |
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| 23:57.40 | wmat | prpplague: was there some Hammer pages on elinux.org in need of some images and proper links? |
| 23:57.47 | wmat | prpplague: in particular Editing Hammer How to Swtching 5V Regulator |
| 23:58.08 | prpplague | wmat: sorry don't recal off the top of my head |
| 23:59.00 | wmat | come on, it's only been 2 years since you wrote it ;) |
| 23:59.30 | prpplague | does a quick check |