| 00:02.39 | _prpplague_ | goes home for the day |
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| 00:08.43 | MonMotha | hum, it looks like it may be possible to do the embedded Qt (sans-X11) stuff under LGPL now? |
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| 01:39.09 | *** topic/#edev is Discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/WinCE/Commercial Device Repurposing) : Firmware Linux (FWL) : Busybox and Buildroot : Ponies : http://www.elinux.org |
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| 02:33.24 | rektide | give me accelerated x please |
| 02:33.44 | rektide | sorry but a framebuffered Qt <<<<<< real xorg running well |
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| 02:38.04 | sideone | hey all |
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| 03:05.15 | sjhill | prpplague: you around? |
| 03:12.55 | sideone | i would like to build a low power consumption device running a small linux build. i would like to put everything on a chip, but am just starting. could someone recommended a good book or site to explain arm/small form factor development? |
| 03:12.56 | sideone | thanks |
| 03:15.07 | ohsix | like sheevaplug? |
| 03:25.12 | MonMotha | rektide: you think you get acceleration on these things? |
| 03:25.18 | MonMotha | it's usually just a dumb framebuffer |
| 03:25.29 | rektide | depends on what you're using |
| 03:26.16 | MonMotha | I don't think that Sharp/NXP micro has any acceleration functions, but I'd have to read more closely |
| 03:26.25 | MonMotha | besides, for what I'd be doing, a dumb framebuffer is fine |
| 03:26.41 | MonMotha | heck, I could use a character LCD for this but the customer wants pretty pictures |
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| 03:27.48 | MonMotha | and my PC is all crashy, again |
| 03:27.59 | MonMotha | I guess it made it 7+ years, so I shouldn't complain |
| 03:41.51 | sjhill | so |
| 03:42.08 | sjhill | i'm trying to guess what speed a device has it's rs232 configured at |
| 03:42.17 | sjhill | speed, data, stop, parity |
| 03:42.42 | sjhill | barring buying a protocol analyzer and having a scope handy, any utilities under linux? |
| 03:45.21 | MonMotha | do you have any idea what it's outputting? |
| 03:45.35 | sjhill | yes |
| 03:45.47 | MonMotha | is it something repetitive? |
| 03:46.06 | sjhill | it will put out the same string everytime power is turned on |
| 03:46.14 | MonMotha | hum, ok |
| 03:46.37 | MonMotha | a trick you can do is see if you can get the same "nonsense" pattern every time. Then you know it's a multiple or factor of that baud rate |
| 03:46.52 | MonMotha | data format is almost always 8N1 |
| 03:47.06 | MonMotha | if it's using more than 1 stop bit, setting your receiver to 1 won't hurt things |
| 03:47.18 | sjhill | ok |
| 03:47.22 | MonMotha | unless you have reason to believe they are using 7 or 9 bit data characters, it's almost always 8 |
| 03:47.26 | MonMotha | that just leaves parity |
| 03:47.39 | sjhill | so using 1 or 2 for stop bits is not going to matter |
| 03:47.54 | MonMotha | if you get framing errors when set to 8 bits no parity, try setting things to 9 bits and ignoring the last bit (which would be the parity bit of unknown type) |
| 03:48.11 | MonMotha | if the receiver is only expecting 1 stop bit, it won't care if it gets more (it just looks like an idle line) |
| 03:48.20 | sjhill | k |
| 03:48.24 | MonMotha | many receivers in fact don't enforce the number of stop bits. It only affects the transmitter |
| 03:48.36 | sjhill | ok |
| 03:49.14 | MonMotha | so that just leaves baud rate, and there's a limited number of those to try if you think it's PC compatible (and if it's not, well, you're hosed without extra equipment) |
| 03:50.15 | sjhill | so how should i increment baud rate |
| 03:50.22 | sjhill | 1200, 2400, 4800, etc. ? |
| 03:50.30 | sjhill | i know the max is 38400 |
| 03:50.33 | MonMotha | I usually start at 2400, then try 9600, then 19200, then 38400 |
| 03:50.38 | MonMotha | it's usually one of those |
| 03:50.42 | MonMotha | rarely slower, rarely 4800 |
| 03:51.12 | MonMotha | or I just grab the bit time off a scope :) |
| 03:51.35 | sjhill | :) |
| 03:51.42 | sjhill | i really should buy one |
| 03:52.00 | MonMotha | those cheap PC hosted things would work fine for this |
| 03:52.55 | sjhill | back to the "same nonsense" comment |
| 03:53.23 | sjhill | not sure what you meant wrt baud rate |
| 03:53.48 | MonMotha | if you're getting the same data each time, but it's wrong, you know you've at least got a multiple or factor of the actual baud rate |
| 03:53.50 | sjhill | what am i varying, the framing |
| 03:54.29 | MonMotha | generally you are too high in that case since what it's doing is it's catching the framing correctly but getting the start bit from one byte and the stop bit from a later byte |
| 03:55.16 | MonMotha | e.g. if the data is at 9600 baud but you're set to 19200, you'll get the start bit from the first byte, then you'll catch the stop bit from the second byte. The data in the middle is every other bit possibly with some indeterminate stuff due to changes right in the sampling windo |
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| 03:57.44 | MonMotha | anyway, I need to get to sleep |
| 03:58.10 | sjhill | thx for the ideas, goodnight |
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| 13:56.43 | pingbat | does anyone use gEDA? in a big way? |
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| 16:42.55 | pingbat | is it typically neccessary to connect all power pins on a chip or can you leave some unconnected? |
| 16:43.22 | HTT-Bird | pingbat, hook 'em all up |
| 16:44.01 | pingbat | but they are common inside the chip right? |
| 16:44.23 | HTT-Bird | pingbat, chip interconnect and bond wires are high resistance/impedance, relative to PC board trace |
| 16:44.52 | pingbat | i am having lots of trouble with getting access to them cause i only had 2 layers and it's fairly dense |
| 16:44.56 | HTT-Bird | so even though there is an electrical path on-chip, it's not very good |
| 16:45.06 | HTT-Bird | pingbat, is there a reason your stuck with double-sided? |
| 16:45.22 | pingbat | cost |
| 16:45.41 | pingbat | not worth it though, it's been a nightmare |
| 16:46.24 | pingbat | My supervisor 'suggested' i use a double sided design |
| 16:46.57 | HTT-Bird | I'd return and tell him you are having issues jamming everything into 2 layers :) |
| 16:46.59 | pingbat | they can be CNC's whereas the multilayers are fat more time intensive |
| 16:47.18 | HTT-Bird | aye, multilayer is more expensive, but sometimes the power/ground integrity is more than worth it |
| 16:47.32 | HTT-Bird | because with multilayer, you can have nice, big, power/ground planes :D |
| 16:48.02 | pingbat | is there a PCB-compatible layout editor that is better than PCB? |
| 16:48.12 | pingbat | yeah, routing power has been an issue |
| 16:48.24 | HTT-Bird | dunno. the gEDA PCB program CAN do multilayer though, and it's not half bad actually |
| 16:48.37 | HTT-Bird | the libraries aren't the greatest, Luciani's stuff helps though |
| 16:48.45 | pingbat | it's not great though |
| 16:48.51 | HTT-Bird | but the program itself is nice once you get used to it though :) |
| 16:49.19 | pingbat | i tend to grow fonder of it once the layouts are finished |
| 16:49.34 | pingbat | when i start I am less enthusiastic |
| 16:50.25 | HTT-Bird | heh...yeah, tell your sup that a 4-layer board may be necessary for the design |
| 16:50.29 | HTT-Bird | how many power rails do you have? |
| 16:51.15 | pingbat | 3 |
| 16:51.32 | HTT-Bird | ooh |
| 16:51.44 | HTT-Bird | yeah, 4 layer would be a bare minimum |
| 16:52.06 | HTT-Bird | put the most frequently used power rail (or if you have sensitive analog, the quietest power rail) on the power plane |
| 16:53.34 | pingbat | it's my first 'proper' layout |
| 16:53.49 | pingbat | taken be far longer than anticipated |
| 16:55.09 | HTT-Bird | aye, layout isn't easy |
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| 16:55.18 | HTT-Bird | my first layout had a chip-blowing bug :P |
| 16:55.27 | alex4nder | hey |
| 16:55.27 | HTT-Bird | (reversed the pinout on the DC input jack) |
| 16:55.33 | HTT-Bird | hey |
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| 16:58.00 | pingbat | i plugged a board in the wrong way on our solar car |
| 16:58.11 | pingbat | i actually blew up |
| 16:58.16 | pingbat | that was a fun day |
| 16:59.51 | HTT-Bird | yeah, I've smoked plenty of stuff |
| 17:00.07 | HTT-Bird | last casualties were a pair of 100ohm resistors due to a wiring error |
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| 17:07.14 | pingbat | electronics are weird, sometimes you can put them through hell and sometimes you kust need to look at them wrong |
| 17:07.57 | HTT-Bird | pingbat, lol :) |
| 17:08.23 | alex4nder | unfortunately it seems like you get bitten at the worst time |
| 17:13.24 | pingbat | when you causally rub a balloon on you hear then pick up a chip having done it hundreds of times |
| 17:13.35 | pingbat | *head |
| 17:14.27 | HTT-Bird | oh, yeah, zapped a video card once |
| 17:14.34 | HTT-Bird | heard and saw the spark. :o |
| 17:15.09 | pingbat | oh noes |
| 17:15.15 | pingbat | that sucks |
| 17:22.27 | pingbat | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:22.36 | pingbat | lots of fun to be had there |
| 17:22.43 | pingbat | quite painful |
| 17:27.20 | pingbat | the best thing about gEDA is that the file formats are easy to unserstand |
| 17:32.15 | pingbat | i replaced a battery in a watch recently and i think the rubber contacts for the LCS are somehow damages, some of the LCD segments don't activate anymore |
| 17:32.44 | pingbat | anyone know what that might be? |
| 17:32.48 | pingbat | *damaged |
| 17:32.54 | HTT-Bird | ouch :( |
| 17:33.28 | pingbat | i know |
| 17:33.40 | pingbat | i bought 10 batteries as well |
| 17:33.50 | pingbat | what am i going to do with 10 watch batteries |
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| 19:14.00 | sjhill | anyone used pivot_root with busybox? |
| 19:36.05 | solar | yes. |
| 19:36.28 | solar | sjhill: iirc. You want to --move vs --bind on dirs like dev |
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| 19:53.51 | sjhill | dev isn't the problem |
| 19:54.05 | sjhill | it keeps telling me the /oldroot is busy |
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| 21:03.52 | pingbat | 35 rats to go :-D |
| 21:04.15 | SpeedEvil | just has 4 mice. |
| 21:04.23 | SpeedEvil | is contemplating building a better moustrap. |
| 21:08.11 | pingbat | I remember an episode of tomorrow's world with a mousetrap that froze the mice with liquid nitrogen before sending it down a pipe (like the ones used to move money in supermarkets) to be disposed of. Only in Japan |
| 21:08.55 | SpeedEvil | I have a test mousetrap - unused - from a while back. |
| 21:09.08 | SpeedEvil | Charges large capacitor back to 1.5KV |
| 21:09.32 | NullMoogleCable | hmmm i think i just figured out why i lost power and why my track lights wouldnt turn on lol |
| 21:09.35 | SpeedEvil | applies across the electrodes when it senses a change in impedence. |
| 21:09.40 | pingbat | mmm, free snack with every successful trapping |
| 21:09.47 | SpeedEvil | Totally humane trap. |
| 21:10.03 | SpeedEvil | As it's got plenty of energy to cook the mouse in every activation. |
| 21:19.19 | pingbat | Are you for real? do you use a wire brish to discharge into the rodent? |
| 21:19.48 | SpeedEvil | No - couple of strips of copper tape |
| 21:20.21 | pingbat | mF ? |
| 21:20.28 | pingbat | of bigger |
| 21:20.32 | pingbat | *or |
| 21:20.51 | SpeedEvil | IIRC around 1000uF@1.5KV |
| 21:22.42 | pingbat | must make a big bang |
| 21:25.09 | SpeedEvil | It did when I tested it - with a bit of pork. |
| 21:25.15 | pingbat | what kind of cap? |
| 21:25.29 | pingbat | instant crackling |
| 21:25.42 | SpeedEvil | bang - pretty much |
| 21:25.46 | SpeedEvil | electrolytic array |
| 21:26.02 | pingbat | aha |
| 21:27.14 | pingbat | so you have never deployes it in anger? |
| 21:27.18 | pingbat | *deployed |
| 21:27.24 | pingbat | my typing is off today |
| 21:27.48 | SpeedEvil | no - stopped having mouse troubles at that time - some years ago. |
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| 21:27.53 | SpeedEvil | Now they're in the walls. |
| 21:29.00 | pingbat | damn, get a ferret |
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| 21:49.18 | pingbat | layout is a special kind of pain |
| 21:55.40 | pingbat | putting the RBIAS resistor for a USB controller onto a ground attached directly to a RAM chip would be bad or would it be ok? |
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| 23:16.25 | haljaq | Hi, in audio ADCs/DACs, is the lower the SNR level the better? How about THD? I have looked up these terms but they are still not clear to me. |
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| 23:17.12 | SpeedEvil | yes, lower is better |
| 23:17.18 | SpeedEvil | SNR is signal to noise ratio |
| 23:17.19 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 23:17.24 | SpeedEvil | higher is bette rfor SNR |
| 23:17.33 | SpeedEvil | 90dB is often acceptible |
| 23:17.39 | SpeedEvil | THD - lower is better |
| 23:17.43 | haljaq | i see |
| 23:17.57 | SpeedEvil | SNR of 90dB means that the maximum output is 90dB higher than the noise |
| 23:18.07 | SpeedEvil | THD - distortion - lower is better. |
| 23:18.25 | SpeedEvil | Under 0.1% is sometimes considered acceptable. |
| 23:18.31 | haljaq | ok |
| 23:19.31 | haljaq | thanks |
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| 23:34.52 | pingbat | anyone have any tips for squeezing int the last few traces? |
| 23:41.06 | MonMotha | pingbat: not a great idea, but if it's a good solid ground connection to a low-inductance plane, you're probably ok |
| 23:41.17 | MonMotha | as to cramming on a few traces, push/shove mode works great if your layout tool has it |
| 23:41.30 | MonMotha | but if it won't fit, it won't fit |
| 23:41.54 | MonMotha | I've had to tear up substantial chunks of a board before just because a couple last traces wouldn't fit |
| 23:42.14 | MonMotha | if you're doing really low volume, you could just leave a couple pads on the outside and put down a green wire :) |
| 23:42.29 | pingbat | does PCB have a push shove mode? |
| 23:42.36 | MonMotha | dunno, I doubt it |
| 23:42.53 | pingbat | i am considering just putting a wire on it |
| 23:45.10 | pingbat | strikes me this gets easier every time you do it |
| 23:47.56 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 23:48.00 | MonMotha | you start to see patterns |
| 23:48.08 | MonMotha | you also get a good feel for how placement affects routing |
| 23:48.27 | MonMotha | a good layout is X% placement and Y% routing, where X+Y=100 and X>>Y |
| 23:48.43 | MonMotha | (I like to leave it generic since people inevitably debate the actual numbers) |
| 23:49.37 | MonMotha | the last layout I did was a 4 layer (that should have probably been a 6). Took me ~3.5 days including some circuit changes that got shoved in mid-way |
| 23:49.47 | MonMotha | boy that sucker is dense |
| 23:50.27 | MonMotha | ..but it works. RF performance could maybe be a little better, but some of those compromises were driven by mechanical constraints. |
| 23:51.49 | pingbat | this looks like a bit of a mess |
| 23:52.15 | pingbat | i think it should have been more than 2 layers |
| 23:52.39 | MonMotha | is it double sided? |
| 23:52.44 | MonMotha | (parts on both sides) |
| 23:53.08 | pingbat | one sided, 2 layers |
| 23:53.26 | pingbat | i should have placed further apart |
| 23:53.33 | pingbat | and my pin selection was poor |
| 23:53.40 | MonMotha | well, lese dense placement does generally let you use fewer layers, yes |
| 23:53.43 | MonMotha | pin selection? |
| 23:53.53 | MonMotha | as in a device with muxable I/O? |
| 23:54.03 | pingbat | there is a bit of pin multiplexing on the SoC |
| 23:54.08 | pingbat | yeah |
| 23:54.22 | MonMotha | you could try swapping some IO around and see if that buys you anythign |
| 23:54.44 | bgamari | Has anyone here done QFP or QFN soldering by hand? |
| 23:54.47 | pingbat | not sure it'll be worth it |
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| 23:55.13 | pingbat | the process of working out what to swap would just bog me down even more |
| 23:55.14 | MonMotha | bgamari: QFP all the time. QFN is a lot harder :) |
| 23:55.29 | pingbat | need to get it off to the workshop |
| 23:55.31 | bgamari | MonMotha: For QFP you just use an iron and wick? |
| 23:55.58 | bgamari | Would it be worth buying a hot-air rework station? |
| 23:56.21 | MonMotha | For QFPs, I flux the pads, place the part and tack opposite corners, then drag solder across all the pins, then use wick to clean any bridges (if you're careful with the drag step and design the PCB right, there won't be any) |
| 23:56.22 | bgamari | Or even just building a reflow oven for that matter |
| 23:56.43 | bgamari | MonMotha: Yeah, I've done that with TSSOPs |
| 23:56.49 | MonMotha | For QFNs, it dependson if you need the epad soldered down |
| 23:57.12 | MonMotha | if you want good connection on the epad, reflow is your only real option |
| 23:57.13 | bgamari | MonMotha: You mean the center pad? |
| 23:57.15 | bgamari | yeah |
| 23:57.17 | MonMotha | yes |
| 23:57.42 | bgamari | MonMotha: Well, it honestly doesn't matter in this case |
| 23:57.52 | bgamari | MonMotha: So it would be possible? |
| 23:57.56 | MonMotha | if you don't mind the epad being dry or soldering it from the back (mixed results), you can do a similar trick to the QFPs. The flux wicks the solder in under thepackage. |
| 23:58.22 | bgamari | I have access to plenty of laboratory hot plates |
| 23:58.33 | MonMotha | well, that works well, supposedly, though I've not tried |
| 23:58.36 | bgamari | So I was thinking of trying that |
| 23:58.40 | MonMotha | use leaded solder paste if you can |
| 23:58.52 | MonMotha | it's much more forgiving |
| 23:59.00 | bgamari | Yeah, I need all of the help I can get |
| 23:59.43 | MonMotha | don't expect much luck with QFNs <0.5mm pitch |
| 23:59.54 | MonMotha | even the CMs hate those :) |