| 00:00.13 | bgamari | Yeah, I don't think I'll need to worry about that |
| 00:00.41 | bgamari | I guess we'll see what happens |
| 00:00.47 | MonMotha | oh, and 0201s, they hate those, too :) |
| 00:00.56 | MonMotha | not many places can even do 01005s |
| 00:01.17 | pingbat | are LQFP's relatively easy to solder? |
| 00:01.19 | bgamari | I suppose I should probably get my last design working before I start the next iteration |
| 00:01.26 | MonMotha | oh yeah, I've never had a problem with QFPs |
| 00:01.30 | MonMotha | it's all about practice |
| 00:01.38 | bgamari | prpplague_afk: I think I'll be trying another iteration of the data acquisition board |
| 00:01.42 | MonMotha | start out on like a 0.8mm or maybe a 0.65mm if you're daring |
| 00:01.42 | pingbat | you burn many out? |
| 00:01.59 | MonMotha | I've never had problems I could link to overheating during hand soldering |
| 00:02.04 | MonMotha | but then I actually don't the thing very hot |
| 00:02.05 | bgamari | This time I'm going to use 1.8V logic ADCs to avoid level shifting |
| 00:02.32 | pingbat | these have a 0.22 pitch which is a little scary |
| 00:02.47 | MonMotha | 0.22mm pitch QFP? |
| 00:02.51 | MonMotha | I've never seen that |
| 00:02.59 | MonMotha | that's TINY |
| 00:03.16 | MonMotha | anything lower than 0.5mm is rare on a QFP. They usually go QFN at that point |
| 00:03.33 | MonMotha | leads that tiny don't hold up very well |
| 00:04.06 | pingbat | i may be confusing pitch and width |
| 00:04.19 | MonMotha | the pitch is the distance between pin centers |
| 00:04.45 | MonMotha | usually distance "e" in drawings |
| 00:05.02 | pingbat | in that case 0.5, pin width is 0.22 |
| 00:05.25 | pingbat | my bad |
| 00:05.26 | MonMotha | ah, ok |
| 00:05.28 | MonMotha | that's more typical |
| 00:06.26 | MonMotha | if you use IPC medium or low density pads and put a landing point at each corner, drag soldering is a breeze |
| 00:06.57 | MonMotha | though I'd still recommend practicing the technique on a larger pitch device |
| 00:07.19 | MonMotha | the 8-bit AVRs come in 0.8mm pitch QFPs and are of course great little devices to do a small design with |
| 00:07.25 | pingbat | ? what are 'IPC medium" |
| 00:07.43 | MonMotha | IPC has guidelines for how to do pad sizes for various standard packages |
| 00:07.59 | pingbat | gotcha |
| 00:08.24 | MonMotha | They come in low, medium, and high density flavors. The higher the density, the smaller the pad. Lets you get more stuff on the board, but it sacrifices mechanical strength a little and makes hand rework harder. |
| 00:10.33 | pingbat | the pin multiplexing stuff seems pretty awesome for increasing density |
| 00:16.56 | pingbat | down to 10 |
| 00:25.25 | MonMotha | I wish these MCUs had completely assignable pins |
| 00:25.34 | MonMotha | it shouldn't be too hard to do an FPGA like IO fabric on them |
| 00:25.52 | pingbat | it's becoming more and more common |
| 00:26.05 | MonMotha | well, they're certainly getting more flexible with the pin muxing |
| 00:26.35 | MonMotha | but I've yet to see one where everything (aside from power, of course) is completely assignable |
| 00:26.35 | pingbat | that's what i meant |
| 00:27.19 | pingbat | i should imagine it adds a fair amount of latency |
| 00:27.24 | MonMotha | no |
| 00:27.40 | MonMotha | it's a bunch of muxes, basically |
| 00:28.13 | MonMotha | it kinda comes free on an FPGA, but you could do it on a MCU if you wanted to |
| 00:29.06 | pingbat | is it the same technology? |
| 00:30.08 | MonMotha | kinda |
| 00:30.53 | pingbat | i guess it's mean a big die change |
| 00:31.00 | MonMotha | simplistically, if you have 100 special function signals floating around, and you want any function to be assignable to any IO line, each IO line just needs a 101 input mux (all the special functions plus the GPIO) |
| 00:31.11 | MonMotha | a 101 input mux isn't as bad as it sounds when you're working on a chip |
| 00:31.23 | MonMotha | well, yeah, this isn't something you'd bolt on to an existing design |
| 00:31.54 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: some PICs do that - I forget which family |
| 00:32.02 | pingbat | the new ones |
| 00:32.04 | MonMotha | hum, interesting |
| 00:32.04 | pingbat | i think |
| 00:32.11 | SpeedEvil | Apart from the analog pins |
| 00:32.19 | MonMotha | some of the new ARMs and such have like 5-10 options per pin, which is pretty flexible |
| 00:32.47 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: sure - but the flexibility you care about is no arbitary constraints. |
| 00:32.51 | MonMotha | you always seem to get stuck with crappy pinouts no matter what, though :) |
| 00:32.55 | MonMotha | right |
| 00:33.04 | MonMotha | I want to be able to put any special function on any GPIO |
| 00:33.06 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: Like forex you can't use the third serial port if you want SD |
| 00:33.09 | MonMotha | aside from analog, sure |
| 00:33.38 | MonMotha | and yes, that would also eliminate the tradeoff of things sharing pins with no other options rendering a peripheral unusable when another one is used |
| 00:34.37 | SpeedEvil | Also makes stuff more flexible. |
| 00:34.48 | MonMotha | It could also make shared signals easier to work with. You effectively get free zero-latency buffering (just set two pins to the same signal) |
| 00:34.51 | SpeedEvil | For example, you have one board, with 12 undedicated IO pins. |
| 00:34.55 | pingbat | great for quick stuff |
| 00:35.06 | SpeedEvil | And RAM/ROM/usual peripherals maybe. |
| 00:35.14 | MonMotha | oh yeah, it would make the classic "unused IO" header much more useful |
| 00:35.16 | SpeedEvil | the IO pins can be serial, or an MMC bus, or ... |
| 00:37.41 | pingbat | the EPI bus on the ARM chips seems to be fixed though |
| 00:38.11 | pingbat | which is annoying |
| 00:41.37 | *** join/#edev HTT-Bird (~kb1rd@unaffiliated/htt-bird) |
| 00:53.47 | pingbat | i've missed out 2 0f 8 GND pins and one of 8VDD pins am i likely to get away with this? |
| 00:54.22 | HTT-Bird | pingbat, on a digital chip? unlikely, you'll get some major noise troubles at the very least |
| 00:54.31 | pingbat | really? :-( |
| 00:54.54 | HTT-Bird | yeah...you have to realize that bond wires aren't very low impedance creatures |
| 00:55.21 | SpeedEvil | what sort of chip |
| 00:55.38 | pingbat | Cortex-M3 |
| 00:55.44 | pingbat | Stellaris |
| 00:58.00 | pingbat | i'll have another look in the morning |
| 01:03.51 | bsdfox | pingbat: the datasheets always say to connect them all.. otherwise they'd be marked n/c |
| 01:04.07 | pingbat | mmm |
| 01:04.35 | pingbat | i'm going to keep at thie schematic for a while |
| 01:06.23 | pingbat | i've started hearing the traces speak to me in my hear |
| 01:06.26 | pingbat | *head |
| 01:06.48 | pingbat | one of them is a pompous frenchman angry at being move around so much |
| 01:07.23 | MonMotha | whether or not that'll work depends on the design of the chip. I'd generally say hook them up right :) |
| 01:07.26 | bsdfox | I really wish there were better autorouters |
| 01:08.07 | MonMotha | there are some fairly good autorouters, but there's still no comparison to a good manual route |
| 01:08.13 | MonMotha | I like the "interactive" routers |
| 01:08.26 | pingbat | where are these interactive routers? |
| 01:09.05 | MonMotha | Altium Designer has a nice one |
| 01:09.25 | pingbat | the problem with PCB is that it's a vector graphics tool, it trats thinks as lines not traces |
| 01:10.08 | pingbat | it treats things* |
| 01:10.13 | pingbat | crikey |
| 01:10.21 | SpeedEvil | why is this a problem? |
| 01:10.32 | bsdfox | I can't afford altium designer :( |
| 01:10.33 | SpeedEvil | Admittedly I've only uised it for 2 layer board,s buyt it worked fine for me |
| 01:10.58 | pingbat | well to move a trace you need to move each segment individually |
| 01:11.05 | pingbat | fine on a small board |
| 01:11.15 | pingbat | but really laborious on a bigger one |
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| 01:11.29 | SpeedEvil | hmm |
| 01:11.35 | SpeedEvil | I don't remember that being a problem |
| 01:11.41 | pingbat | there may be a better way of doing it but i am not aware of it |
| 01:11.42 | SpeedEvil | maybe indeed a small board |
| 01:11.59 | SpeedEvil | I haven't used it fore a whie, so I've forgotten details |
| 01:12.30 | pingbat | i have to keep moving stuff closer together to make more space, it's a bit mindless |
| 01:12.57 | pingbat | down to 6 rats |
| 01:13.24 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 01:13.29 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 01:13.47 | SpeedEvil | for that you'd want something like dragging a component pushes all traces while respecting the DRC |
| 01:14.02 | bsdfox | seems there should be a way to lock certain connectors/components to specific spots or regions and let the autorouter deal with orientation of the rest but I've never found one that was decent |
| 01:14.17 | pingbat | this board isn't going to have flash LEDS on the Ethernet port :-( they're too far away |
| 01:14.19 | bsdfox | it'd be nice if you could just review the design to make sure it's not gonna be a pita to assemble |
| 01:14.38 | SpeedEvil | bsdfox: it gets lots more intractable computationally if you do it that way |
| 01:14.40 | pingbat | exactly |
| 01:15.08 | pingbat | a nudge feature would be amazing |
| 01:15.49 | SpeedEvil | Also simulated annealing |
| 01:16.00 | pingbat | the altium autorouter is pretty good no? |
| 01:16.17 | SpeedEvil | Each track exerts a pressure on the next track in proportion to how close it is to the design constraints. |
| 01:16.35 | pingbat | lol, my design would explode then |
| 01:16.36 | SpeedEvil | This is allowed to spin unpinned parts |
| 01:16.43 | pingbat | i need to redifine my design rules |
| 01:16.48 | SpeedEvil | So, you put the parts down, route. |
| 01:17.07 | SpeedEvil | then allow it to move a bit to its 'resting' configuration |
| 01:17.13 | SpeedEvil | and then maybe try to route again |
| 01:17.34 | SpeedEvil | Or have the outsides of the PCB pressing in |
| 01:17.57 | pingbat | did anyone try the game where you folded proteins |
| 01:18.00 | SpeedEvil | It will look wacky - as everything will be at odd angles. |
| 01:19.46 | pingbat | have you used graphviz? |
| 01:20.22 | SpeedEvil | nope. |
| 01:20.32 | SpeedEvil | is not employed at this professionally. |
| 01:20.53 | pingbat | same thing, you define a graph then it uses various models to associate different bite by how interconnected they are |
| 01:21.08 | pingbat | it's open source |
| 01:21.10 | SpeedEvil | interesting. |
| 01:21.35 | pingbat | you tend to get small isolated groups |
| 01:21.44 | pingbat | but you can play with the settings etc |
| 01:21.54 | pingbat | i put a PIMO inot it and it went mental |
| 01:22.59 | pingbat | but i think pin multiplexing will make layout problems far easier |
| 01:23.06 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 01:23.20 | SpeedEvil | Though compactification has already struck. |
| 01:23.29 | pingbat | ? |
| 01:23.34 | SpeedEvil | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic |
| 01:23.36 | SpeedEvil | for example |
| 01:23.44 | SpeedEvil | It's damn near empty - for what it does |
| 01:24.11 | SpeedEvil | For example - the FM transmitter is (IIRC) about 6 components. |
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| 01:25.22 | pingbat | woah |
| 01:25.39 | SpeedEvil | OI course this only works if your app is a good fit - and a PMU/USB phy/sound codec chip is actually useful. |
| 01:27.37 | pingbat | that is a sparse looking board |
| 01:28.00 | pingbat | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_language |
| 01:28.57 | SpeedEvil | ah |
| 01:29.34 | SpeedEvil | is annoyed by magnetic permeability in skin depths. |
| 01:29.37 | MonMotha | that isn't that sparse, actually |
| 01:29.40 | SpeedEvil | I totally forgot about that. |
| 01:29.49 | MonMotha | though I'm going to assume that most of the from-tos are pretty short |
| 01:29.54 | MonMotha | that makes it not so bad |
| 01:29.55 | SpeedEvil | (WRT induction hobs) |
| 01:29.59 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 01:30.02 | MonMotha | the sections that have stuff in them are fairly dense |
| 01:30.37 | SpeedEvil | In terms of absolute component count per function it's really low compared to what it'd have been only a few years ago |
| 01:31.07 | MonMotha | oh, well yeah |
| 01:31.10 | pingbat | i would imagine packaging a chip often costs more than the chip |
| 01:31.29 | SpeedEvil | For some chips, yes. |
| 01:31.46 | pingbat | but for stuff like ARM chips, if you discount the commission to ARM |
| 01:31.52 | SpeedEvil | Some of the stuff on there is nasty - for example there are several mutli-chip packaged ones. |
| 01:32.03 | pingbat | say an ARM7TDMI |
| 01:32.08 | MonMotha | yeah, that thing is sure to be a bitch to assemble |
| 01:33.18 | pingbat | We have a pick and place machine at Uni |
| 01:33.18 | pingbat | his name is Tony |
| 01:33.18 | pingbat | :-P |
| 01:33.18 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 01:33.31 | pingbat | although he is sometimes faster than the pick and place |
| 01:33.40 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 01:33.42 | pingbat | he's a bit of a mantalist |
| 01:33.47 | SpeedEvil | machines ar great on runs of a thousand |
| 01:34.18 | SpeedEvil | ponders if that means he's got massive wings to swim underwater. |
| 01:35.00 | pingbat | lol |
| 01:35.10 | pingbat | i can's spell anmore |
| 01:35.13 | SpeedEvil | :) |
| 01:35.19 | pingbat | my typing is shot |
| 01:35.37 | pingbat | been up since 8:30 yesterday |
| 01:36.07 | SpeedEvil | Me too. |
| 01:36.21 | SpeedEvil | needs to go to sleep. |
| 01:36.31 | pingbat | strange how i can do that now |
| 01:36.39 | pingbat | i used to be a faller asleeper |
| 01:36.46 | pingbat | at parties etc |
| 01:37.17 | pingbat | does anyone have a SD Card slot footprint for PCB? |
| 01:37.30 | pingbat | i made one then farnell sold out of the part |
| 01:37.33 | pingbat | :-( |
| 01:51.04 | roxfan | it probably depends on which specific socket you'll use |
| 01:52.53 | MonMotha | yeah, I don't think the SD guys standardized PCB footprints |
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| 02:40.08 | sjhill | CosmicPenguin: you talked to prpplague lately? |
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| 13:55.51 | pingbat | wahey, all done |
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| 14:17.38 | john280z | pingbat, I think most PCB layout persons are locked up at night : ) |
| 14:20.22 | pingbat | lol, i was up 36 hours finishing it off |
| 14:21.05 | pingbat | it was only after sleeping last night that i was able to finish the last 10 or so rats |
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| 16:23.34 | prpplague | sjhill: hey bud, you looking for me? |
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| 16:39.31 | sjhill | prpplague: there you are |
| 16:39.49 | sjhill | prpplague: nothing major |
| 16:40.47 | sjhill | prpplague: sent you a pm |
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| 17:08.10 | CosmicPenguin | sjhill: nope - haven't talked to him |
| 17:09.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: oh well |
| 17:09.23 | CosmicPenguin | my loss? |
| 17:13.13 | prpplague | indeed |
| 17:13.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: how goes it anyway? |
| 17:15.09 | CosmicPenguin | sucky |
| 17:21.13 | sjhill | CosmicPenguin: how come? |
| 17:21.41 | CosmicPenguin | This is a tough job - lots of fail |
| 17:23.11 | sjhill | CosmicPenguin: whatcha' doin' ? |
| 17:24.25 | CosmicPenguin | https://www.codeaurora.org/contribute/projects/xwinp/ |
| 17:24.27 | CosmicPenguin | That, mostly |
| 17:24.30 | CosmicPenguin | also proprietarys tuff |
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| 17:26.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea i'm only on my 3rd day here and already feeling the pressure |
| 17:26.33 | alex4nder | hey |
| 17:26.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: as usual, i already have one the EE's mad at me |
| 17:27.42 | CosmicPenguin | hah |
| 17:28.03 | sjhill | codeaurora |
| 17:28.12 | sjhill | wth have i been |
| 17:28.18 | sjhill | didn't even know that existed |
| 17:29.59 | sjhill | i'd like to know why busybox's syslogd just decides to exit for no reason |
| 17:30.15 | sjhill | now i know why it's in inittab to respawn |
| 17:30.18 | sjhill | wth |
| 17:33.22 | alex4nder | prpplague: is this a new contract job? |
| 17:36.48 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:40.57 | alex4nder | I just got hired to get a Linux BSP put together for a custom board running a NiosII |
| 17:41.22 | alex4nder | the hardware design is so bad,. I let them know that there's no guarantee that I'll get it stable in a reasonable amount of time. |
| 18:02.15 | HTT-Bird | alex4nder, just how bad is it? :( |
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| 18:03.39 | alex4nder | HTT-Bird: as an example they have a parallel bus going out to 8 daughter boards, across a huge PCB backplane, without any termination/protection/whatever. |
| 18:04.02 | HTT-Bird | alex4nder, at what speeds are they trying to run this bus at? :@ |
| 18:06.14 | alex4nder | HTT-Bird: their current software implementation isn't doing much that's high speed, but they want to do some interesting things with software in the future, and I don't know if it's going to be possible. |
| 18:07.21 | alex4nder | the worst thing about it is: I think they designed it this way, because the Avalon Memory-Mapped Tristate Bridge was easy to create inside Altera's software tools. |
| 18:09.28 | alex4nder | this hardware looks like someone took a block diagram, and put it into the schematic capture |
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| 18:47.04 | HTT-Bird | lol :P |
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| 19:25.14 | sjhill | init 1 root txt REG 179,3 379732 102134 /oldroot/bin/busybox |
| 19:25.14 | sjhill | init 1 root mem REG 179,3 122976 55079 /oldroot/lib/ld-2.8.so |
| 19:25.14 | sjhill | init 1 root mem REG 179,3 1172404 55102 /oldroot/lib/libc-2.8.so |
| 19:25.21 | sjhill | sorry for the paste |
| 19:25.28 | sjhill | but this is after i pivot root |
| 19:25.44 | sjhill | how do i get init to not be running from the old root file system? |
| 19:25.53 | sjhill | i have yet to find anything on google that helps |
| 19:31.37 | prpplague | sjhill: don't get init running, use linuxrc |
| 19:39.23 | prpplague | sjhill: best to use linuxrc as your primary pid 0 to do the pivot root |
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| 20:01.04 | prpplague | sjhill: http://www.pastebin.ca/1824144 |
| 20:02.13 | prpplague | sjhill: for your kernel args just pass init=linuxrc |
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| 20:17.29 | Chocobo | Has anyone done any work with ST Micro based ARM's? |
| 20:17.48 | Chocobo | I am having issues figuring out the remapping of functions to different ports. |
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| 21:31.55 | CosmicPenguin | I think I just won a meeting |
| 21:31.59 | CosmicPenguin | That doesn't happen very often |
| 21:34.13 | SpeedEvil | Congratulations! |
| 21:34.22 | SpeedEvil | also hates meetings. |
| 21:34.58 | SpeedEvil | (well, I'm assuming that, but...) |
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| 22:23.07 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: they will make you pay for your transgression, winning a point at a meeting. |
| 22:23.40 | CosmicPenguin | probably |
| 22:24.07 | T0mW | CosmicPenguin: from my experience, when that happens, they usually put me in charge of something. heh |
| 22:24.25 | CosmicPenguin | Good thing I'm untrustworthy |
| 22:26.10 | T0mW | wondered who they patterned Wally after in Dilbert |
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