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| 02:05.47 | prpplague | davidc__ ping |
| 02:12.57 | Mirell | Hmm...apparently I'm going to Montreal in July. |
| 02:14.31 | prpplague | congradualation |
| 02:15.10 | Mirell | Go Go Security Conference. |
| 02:22.20 | solar | there are very few people in the security industry that impress me |
| 02:22.41 | solar | was not impressed with the embedded industry till I ran across this channel |
| 02:23.34 | solar | but enjoy the conf Mirell |
| 02:24.16 | davidc__ | prpplague: pong |
| 02:24.19 | davidc__ | Mirell: recon? |
| 02:24.38 | davidc__ | solar: there's a lot of work going on in the security industry; methinks you're looking in the wrong places |
| 02:24.52 | davidc__ | solar: look at the work by karsten nohl et al for example |
| 02:27.49 | solar | davidc__: there is for sure lots of work going on. Just the people have not impressed me. I deal with all sorts of people with all sorts of requirements from stock market, online games, to the mil. founded the security team at a major distro and fundamental change what a toolchain can do by default. |
| 02:28.37 | davidc__ | solar: checkout some of the more embedded stuff. Nohl et al reverse engineered an IC from silicon up, figured out the crypto system, then broke it. |
| 02:28.38 | solar | people spend way too much time making charts and worring about IDS when they should focus on prevention in the first place |
| 02:29.11 | davidc__ | oh yeah, if you just look @ network security, that area is getting a bit stale |
| 02:29.52 | solar | embedded is a great example where we have pretty bad security. Seen way to many devices running in root mode. |
| 02:30.09 | davidc__ | solar: oh, embedded security is terrible, both in firmware and in hardware |
| 02:30.23 | solar | +software |
| 02:30.55 | solar | would be nice if arm one day gained the NX bit |
| 02:31.09 | davidc__ | solar: arm is a beautiful arch to exploit |
| 02:31.16 | davidc__ | and NX doesn't help much |
| 02:31.22 | davidc__ | return-to-libc is so easy on arm |
| 02:32.29 | davidc__ | just find yourself a ldmia sp!, [as many registers as you can find an ldmia for] |
| 02:32.29 | solar | ret-2-libc is just as easy on any arch |
| 02:33.28 | davidc__ | eh, perhaps its just because I've spent more time on ARM |
| 02:34.11 | solar | but thankfully I helped drive a method via upstreams of obfuscation that people/vendors could take advantage of to make it a 1 in 255 vs 100% |
| 02:34.56 | davidc__ | link to said method? |
| 02:35.03 | davidc__ | [I've not ever come across it in practice] |
| 02:35.19 | solar | still need more from vendors. NX is never enough alone. You have to always think of the ret2libc. |
| 02:35.37 | solar | for that you need propolice/aka ssp/-fstack-protector-all |
| 02:36.01 | solar | mixed with building with -fPIC or -fPIE and linking with -pie |
| 02:37.15 | solar | when you do that you can take advantage of either the kernels randomize vma space option (with minimal randomization) or something better like PaX's ASLR |
| 02:37.39 | davidc__ | heh. Not gonna happen with most of the embedded devices I work with |
| 02:37.50 | davidc__ | [they don't even _have_ a kernel to do such niceties] |
| 02:37.58 | solar | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/hardened-toolchain.xml |
| 02:38.03 | solar | link that you wanted |
| 02:38.13 | solar | for summing it all up in one link |
| 02:40.05 | davidc__ | What is the entropy source for randomizing memory contents? |
| 02:40.15 | davidc__ | *positions |
| 02:40.25 | solar | so the nice thing about building as pies is that you behave like a shared object which by the defition of ELF allows you to be loaded(entry point) at any random addr |
| 02:40.50 | davidc__ | yeah, the problem is the random bit. |
| 02:41.29 | solar | either /dev/urandom or /dev/random with a fall back of some getuid+gettimeofday+jiffies for the ssp stuff |
| 02:41.31 | davidc__ | A heck of a lot of embedded systems don't have much entropy. I guess if it has an RTC onboard, you could seed the generator with the time |
| 02:41.54 | solar | more complex for the kernel but it only shaves off a few of the lower bits for in the in kernel stuff |
| 02:41.57 | davidc__ | [generator being /dev/random or /dev/urandom] |
| 02:42.06 | solar | which is a bit harder to gain an info leak from |
| 02:42.54 | davidc__ | otherwise, if you don't have an entropy source,every device will boot with an identically laid out memory ;) |
| 02:43.04 | solar | well you should be able to read from urandom just the same on any arch. It will be just less truely less random |
| 02:44.08 | davidc__ | solar: but with an identical firmware load, especially on a system with no persistent storage, or none accessed before you start up the exploitable app, you will have no randomness |
| 02:44.31 | davidc__ | just like the good old attack on VM cryptosystems which use random material |
| 02:44.54 | solar | on a read-only device with no source.. It would have to fake it or seed it better from one of it's peripherals. I've seen audio and video seed |
| 02:46.08 | solar | point is with arm we can make it much harder to accomplish any buffer/heap overflow. |
| 02:47.08 | solar | prevention we can't fully do for the stack. Unless we did something like that was done for i386 with what is commonly known as SEGMEXEC |
| 02:47.49 | solar | but then we loose preformance as if we were running under an emulator |
| 02:52.55 | solar | davidc__: if you work in the vendor field and have any input. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaX ; For less 2% at most extra resources you can improve the low level security of nearly any linux based device. |
| 02:53.23 | solar | do that with a major vendor. I'll be impressed |
| 02:53.26 | davidc__ | solar: oh, I design stuff + do research on attacking stuff |
| 02:53.45 | davidc__ | but most of the stuff I work on is mmu-less below the kernel level |
| 02:53.53 | davidc__ | so... sorta... fish. barrel. |
| 02:54.17 | solar | oh. Yeah then not even in the same game |
| 02:55.17 | solar | what sort of 8/16/32bit mmuless chips do you work with? |
| 02:55.54 | davidc__ | solar: all over the map |
| 02:56.16 | davidc__ | everything from tiny 8 bitters with 1k of flash up through ARM7's / 9's with large flash/sdram stores hanging off the sides |
| 02:56.28 | davidc__ | [I could run linux on the arm9, but the app doesn't call for it] |
| 02:57.37 | davidc__ | anywho, going back to my design machine w/ altium [doesn't run so well on the mac] |
| 02:57.45 | davidc__ | prpplague; if it was important, email me - you have my email |
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| 03:13.48 | prpplague | davidc__ hey bud |
| 03:13.58 | prpplague | davidc__ sorry i missed you |
| 03:14.16 | davidc__ | prpplague: oh, I'm here for a sec |
| 03:14.18 | davidc__ | whats up? |
| 03:14.27 | prpplague | davidc__ hey |
| 03:14.35 | prpplague | davidc__ still doing your PSP lcd board? |
| 03:15.01 | davidc__ | prpplague: yes I am in fact |
| 03:15.05 | davidc__ | what do you need? |
| 03:15.43 | davidc__ | prpplague: piccy of the board that went off for fab is: http://forum.sparkfun.com/download/file.php?id=188 |
| 03:16.10 | davidc__ | prpplague: thats just a level translator / BL boost / breakout. I have a driver board in the works as well [that's universal, PSP LCD supply isn't trustworthy] |
| 03:16.25 | davidc__ | I also have a lead on a really cheap LCD from china thats the same specs as the PSP one |
| 03:16.25 | prpplague | davidc__ i was curious, TCT might be interested in selling it, if you haven't already commited it to SFE |
| 03:16.42 | davidc__ | prpplague: I wasn't planning on doing an exclusive with anyone |
| 03:17.28 | prpplague | davidc__ np, i was just looking it over and thought i might be something we would be interested in mass producing |
| 03:17.54 | davidc__ | prpplague: hmm, as just a breakout its not very useful, you need a high end micro to drive it |
| 03:18.01 | davidc__ | actually... I should design a reciever for the beagleboard |
| 03:18.13 | davidc__ | so it mounts on top of the beagleboard; connects via HDMI, adds GFX |
| 03:18.21 | prpplague | ;) |
| 03:18.32 | prpplague | we are alread doing the beagle board showdog |
| 03:18.48 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/BeagleBoard_ShowDog |
| 03:19.05 | davidc__ | blank. |
| 03:19.45 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/BeagleBoard_Showdog |
| 03:19.48 | prpplague | oops |
| 03:19.53 | davidc__ | prpplague: I could probably do an HDMI compatible board... with touchscreen, including LCD, with 480x272 for well under $100 |
| 03:20.32 | davidc__ | what pricing are you targeting for that part? |
| 03:20.47 | prpplague | most of the folks are going to want a 800x480, just thought your breakout board would be nice |
| 03:20.55 | prpplague | $149.00 for the showdog |
| 03:21.12 | davidc__ | hmm. There would be applications for smaller [small form factor devices, for example] |
| 03:21.22 | davidc__ | and lower price point |
| 03:21.27 | prpplague | they aren't selling |
| 03:21.37 | davidc__ | beagleboards? |
| 03:21.43 | davidc__ | or the showdog? |
| 03:22.15 | prpplague | https://specialcomp.com/beagleboard/BeagleLCD2.htm |
| 03:22.31 | prpplague | several people have made the smaller display available |
| 03:22.50 | prpplague | but everyone wants wvga for android and other gui specific items |
| 03:23.27 | prpplague | just figured your breakout would be a nice cheap item to add to the inventory |
| 03:23.41 | prpplague | TCT is trying to expand it's offerings |
| 03:24.25 | davidc__ | prpplague: sure, I'll talk to you about it |
| 03:24.31 | davidc__ | prpplague: heh, I can see why that one aint selling |
| 03:24.37 | davidc__ | I can't even figure out a way to buy it on their site |
| 03:24.37 | prpplague | davidc__ hehe |
| 03:24.42 | prpplague | indeed |
| 03:24.48 | davidc__ | their site needs a hell of a lot of work to be usable |
| 03:24.54 | prpplague | yea |
| 03:24.55 | davidc__ | I finally found the store through something that looked like a title |
| 03:25.01 | davidc__ | also, there are no example applications |
| 03:25.09 | prpplague | still people on the beagleboard channel don't like it because of the resolution |
| 03:25.25 | davidc__ | meh, I wouldn't be targeting #beagleboard |
| 03:25.37 | davidc__ | I'd be targeting hackaday readers |
| 03:25.43 | prpplague | for which item? |
| 03:25.57 | davidc__ | oh, for a beagleboard add-on-lcd |
| 03:26.18 | prpplague | right |
| 03:26.47 | prpplague | the showdog would be beagleboard with wvga, but we'd like to offer a breakout for the psp for other projects |
| 03:26.49 | davidc__ | prpplague: anyhow, I'll throw a copy of the breakout your way with an adaptor so you can test it off the beagleboard once I have the baords in stock |
| 03:27.12 | prpplague | dandy thanks |
| 03:27.23 | prpplague | http://www.elinux.org/BeagleBoard_Tracker |
| 03:27.34 | prpplague | we are looking to go to production on that as well |
| 03:27.54 | prpplague | davidc__ give me a shout when you have time to chat more |
| 03:28.04 | davidc__ | prpplague: I have time to chat now if ya want |
| 03:51.25 | Mirell | davidc__: Yep |
| 03:52.06 | Mirell | davidc__: In regards to Recon. |
| 03:52.58 | Mirell | solar: I'm in the security industry now, heh. |
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| 09:10.39 | MrMike | I am attempting to get a webcam to work in Windows CE. However, I am unsure how to add the device driver into my OS build. Any ideas? (not sure if this is the right channel . . .) |
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| 17:20.36 | ico2 | i'm having a little trouble building mspgcc (4.1.1) |
| 17:21.08 | ico2 | don't suppose anyone knows of a prebuilt version? (the one in cdk4msp was way too old) |
| 17:33.17 | ico2 | errors: http://erxz.com/pb/25487 |
| 17:33.39 | ico2 | i've tried building using gcc 4.1.2 and 4.4.1 |
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| 17:59.14 | calculus | prpplague: is it possible to use several beagleboard add-on boards at the same time? |
| 17:59.46 | calculus | it would be neat to have the lcd along with the buddy or trainer board |
| 18:00.06 | prpplague | ~lart calculus |
| 18:00.06 | purl | DoSes calculus |
| 18:00.20 | prpplague | calculus: did you not look at the reference schematic? |
| 18:00.48 | prpplague | calculus: short answer, the showdog is designed so that you can use the beagle and one addtional expansion board |
| 18:00.58 | calculus | prpplague: the question is more would I understand it |
| 18:01.04 | prpplague | calculus: hehe |
| 18:01.17 | prpplague | calculus: one sec, let me post something on the wiki |
| 18:04.48 | prpplague | calculus: http://www.elinux.org/BeagleBoard_Showdog |
| 18:04.57 | prpplague | calculus: added a pdf at the bottom with the general layout |
| 18:05.16 | prpplague | calculus: you can see the beagle goes on one side, and then an expansion board can go on the other |
| 18:05.27 | prpplague | calculus: the expansion header is 100% pass through |
| 18:06.19 | calculus | prpplague: cool, thanks |
| 18:06.30 | prpplague | calculus: that answer your question? |
| 18:06.39 | calculus | prpplague: yep |
| 18:07.36 | calculus | showdog + one other board = works, but trainer + buddy does not work |
| 18:08.30 | calculus | I came across something cool the other day, a tower that consists of the main board and then other peripherial boards attach as other layers of the tower |
| 18:11.51 | calculus | prpplague: http://www.mouser.com/freescale_tower_system/ |
| 18:12.27 | prpplague | calculus: yea |
| 18:12.45 | prpplague | calculus: yea i had seen that before |
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| 18:26.03 | Posterdati | hi |
| 18:26.50 | Posterdati | please I need help developing for str912 with gnu: I'm trying to write a startup file (assembler) launching a c main() |
| 18:28.10 | Posterdati | I wrote main.c and startup.s but I got problem with linker script resulting in non working elf image :( |
| 18:30.01 | Posterdati | please answer one at time :) |
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| 18:49.56 | ico2AWAY | Posterdati, can you not just find a prebuilt skeleton app for your system? |
| 18:50.00 | ico2AWAY | and modify it |
| 18:55.30 | Posterdati | no way, I didn't find a suitable one around |
| 18:56.32 | ico2AWAY | examine other linker scripts for the arch |
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| 20:28.43 | prpplague | kergoth: hey bud |
| 20:32.54 | florian | re |
| 20:35.42 | prpplague | florian: hey bud |
| 20:35.58 | florian | hi prpplague |
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| 21:49.46 | f1yback | ok |
| 21:49.47 | f1yback | so |
| 21:50.18 | f1yback | got ubuntu 10.04lts installed on my mini-itx and taking another crack at crosstool-ng although there appears to be a compiler bug people are running into |
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| 22:09.13 | SpeedEvil | http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/4483191082/ - /me wonders. |
| 22:09.29 | *** join/#edev kergoth (~kergoth@ip24-251-170-95.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 22:10.16 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: what the heck |
| 22:10.24 | SpeedEvil | No clue |
| 22:10.26 | SpeedEvil | \ |
| 22:12.28 | SpeedEvil | Someone just saw it while wandering around, with no other context |
| 22:33.30 | *** join/#edev zazenrasta (~zaz@adsl-074-244-082-076.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 22:51.30 | davr | car bomb? |
| 22:52.05 | davr | i wonder if saying "car bomb" triggers automatic NSA wiretaps and stuff, like saying "kill obama" or something |
| 23:12.19 | f1yback | ugh |
| 23:12.29 | f1yback | bangs his head into the wall trying to figure out crosstool-ng |
| 23:25.18 | f1yback | best paths to store the crosstool-ng bins |
| 23:25.22 | f1yback | I am root |
| 23:26.55 | solar | SYSROOT |
| 23:28.01 | f1yback | eh? |
| 23:28.10 | f1yback | has been away from this stuff too long |
| 23:29.45 | f1yback | oh well lets see if it will just compile this time |
| 23:30.33 | ico2_ | hmmmm |
| 23:31.06 | ico2_ | what can i do about this error: "msp430-ld: region text is full (uip section .text)". i've checked and the total size of the object files being linked is far less than the rom size |
| 23:31.25 | f1yback | cool |
| 23:31.28 | f1yback | msp430 :) |
| 23:32.49 | ico2_ | i've spent days and days, with very limited skill, trying to port this thing, and now i'm really stuck |
| 23:33.58 | f1yback | ok |
| 23:34.01 | f1yback | it's compiling |
| 23:34.06 | f1yback | we will see how it goes |
| 23:34.13 | f1yback | I haven't played with msp430 yet so I can't really help |
| 23:34.17 | f1yback | but I know it's a nice mcu |
| 23:34.24 | ico2_ | yeah |
| 23:34.26 | ico2_ | seems nice |
| 23:34.38 | ico2_ | much nicer than the PICs, which is what i'm used to |
| 23:34.53 | f1yback | everything is nicer than pics |
| 23:34.54 | f1yback | :P |
| 23:40.26 | ico2_ | full list of errors: http://erxz.com/pb/25495 |
| 23:40.32 | ico2_ | anyone wanna take a look? |
| 23:43.17 | ico2_ | hmmm |
| 23:43.29 | ico2_ | i think it's to do with the placement of the vectors section |
| 23:43.34 | roxfan | sounds like you ran out of flash |
| 23:44.27 | ico2_ | hmmmmm |
| 23:44.29 | ico2_ | how odd |
| 23:44.31 | ico2_ | i should have plenty |
| 23:45.06 | ico2_ | i've got 40k of object files, 48k of flash |
| 23:45.52 | ico2_ | ld is reckoning it's gonna take 70oddk |
| 23:46.44 | SpeedEvil | Are you including any libraries that you're using? |
| 23:47.29 | ico2_ | yep |
| 23:47.42 | ico2_ | that's included in the ob files |
| 23:48.37 | ico2_ | hang on |
| 23:48.49 | ico2_ | i'm not running out of flash |
| 23:49.06 | ico2_ | section .text [0000fc00 -> 00011b89] |
| 23:49.18 | ico2_ | 8k? |
| 23:49.50 | ico2_ | why is it placing .text so far down? |
| 23:50.38 | ico2_ | or hangon, maybe that's just where the flash is |
| 23:50.46 | ico2_ | either way, the program can't be too big |
| 23:56.32 | ico2_ | can anyone help? |