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| 01:03.23 | prpplague | argh, i hate it when i have 4 shows recording and there are two more that i want to watch |
| 01:03.37 | prpplague | why is it they all come on at the same time? |
| 01:04.02 | ohsix | eztv.it brah |
| 01:04.24 | ohsix | since the releases are "clean" you can even use some torrent keyword scheduling stuff to get em |
| 01:05.05 | prpplague | i think i probably can the ones i need on hulu |
| 01:05.10 | ohsix | being on the west coast i get the east coast versions of things before they'd even air here |
| 01:05.16 | ohsix | oh, that too |
| 01:06.56 | prpplague | hmm doesn't look like they have the new mark twain documentary from pbs |
| 01:07.57 | ohsix | eztv wont either :\ but the schedule stuff it does have is neat, i don't need to keep track of what runs when, or when seasons start; someone already did |
| 01:08.55 | prpplague | thanks i'll have a look |
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| 01:23.45 | prpplague | ~seen kergoth |
| 01:23.50 | purl | kergoth <~kergoth@ip24-251-170-95.ph.ph.cox.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 4h 31m 33s ago, saying: 'woglinde: monday :P'. |
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| 01:58.34 | ohsix | neat http://icircuitapp.com/ |
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| 05:43.40 | MonMotha | ok...this is an interesting |
| 05:43.46 | MonMotha | *interesting problem |
| 05:44.32 | MonMotha | I have a library the emits a weak alias to a stub for some things that the user of the library can optionally override. I have several of these overrides in a file that has nothing else in it. |
| 05:44.49 | MonMotha | That is, everything in my input file is referenced by the library as a weak reference. |
| 05:45.03 | MonMotha | The linker doesn't resolve anything from that file. It totally ignores them. |
| 05:45.30 | MonMotha | If, however, I put a dummy function in the file (I called it "useme()") and call it from somewhere in a non-weak fashion, the linker dutifully pulls in everything, including the stuff referenced weakly. |
| 05:58.55 | Essobi | Anyone played with Modbus TCP? |
| 06:13.00 | MonMotha | given how nasty Modbus can get, I hope I never have to |
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| 16:53.18 | prpplague | GPSFan: don't suppose you watched my presentation? |
| 16:54.11 | prpplague | kergoth: hey bud, i was gonna ping you last night and ask how it feels to look at all the current OE/POKY/YOCTO stuff going? |
| 16:54.36 | prpplague | kergoth: to see you creation mutating in unexpected ways so to speak |
| 16:55.16 | mnemoc | prpplague: url of the presentation? :) |
| 16:55.50 | prpplague | mnemoc: http://free-electrons.com/blog/elce-2010-videos/ |
| 16:55.54 | kergoth | i don't see it as mutation, just evolution. |
| 16:56.15 | prpplague | kergoth: hehe, isn't mutation the core of evolution? hehe |
| 16:56.19 | kergoth | there's like *7* yocto/oe presentations in the ELC schedule, just weird |
| 16:56.19 | prpplague | jokes with kergoth |
| 16:57.11 | prpplague | kergoth: well since Linux Foundation is pushing Yocto, and Linux Foundation is the new proud owners of ELC, kinda makes sense |
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| 16:59.24 | mnemoc | prpplague: thanks :) |
| 16:59.53 | prpplague | mnemoc: feedback is appreciated! |
| 17:00.13 | prpplague | (at least on my presentation) |
| 17:00.23 | prpplague | kergoth: you attending? |
| 17:01.37 | mnemoc | prpplague: ok :) |
| 17:02.09 | prpplague | mnemoc: i don't do public speaking much, so i'd like to make my presentations better |
| 17:02.42 | a7r | I don't get the distribution fragmentation.. or even the issues still being worked on by these distributions. |
| 17:03.07 | kergoth | what distributions? |
| 17:03.08 | a7r | it's been a decade, and the same issues are still being discussed. |
| 17:03.26 | a7r | kergoth: OE/Yocto/Busybox++ |
| 17:03.30 | kergoth | OE isn't a distro, neither is poky, or yocto, or busybox |
| 17:03.34 | kergoth | so i think you're pretty confused |
| 17:03.43 | a7r | haha |
| 17:03.51 | a7r | kergoth: you realize I started Familiar, right? |
| 17:03.54 | a7r | I'm not that confused. |
| 17:04.06 | kergoth | apparently you are, since none of those things are distros |
| 17:04.06 | a7r | in the end, they get pushed out as Linux installations. |
| 17:04.13 | a7r | you're splitting hairs |
| 17:04.16 | kergoth | they're *tools* for producing distros |
| 17:04.20 | kergoth | no, i'm being accurate |
| 17:04.34 | a7r | right. like Debian's source code is a tool for producing Debian? |
| 17:04.57 | kergoth | no, source isn't a tool. debian's tools for producing debian are things like debuild, which are limited to producing just one distribution, indeed |
| 17:04.59 | a7r | anyway, I think it's funny that it's still being worked on. |
| 17:05.36 | mnemoc | prpplague: ok :) just finished downloading |
| 17:06.07 | a7r | kergoth: anyway, nice to talk to you again. :) |
| 17:06.11 | a7r | how's your work going? |
| 17:07.06 | prpplague | kergoth: you attending ELC in april? |
| 17:07.18 | kergoth | There's no magic bullet for this stuff. You can't just make it go away. What's changed is that there are more mechanisms for sharing the effort, rather than everyone doing it themselves, which helps. I hope more folks move in that direction in the future, since clearly we don't all need to be putting time and money into building a linux distro from scratch, there's no value in it, it's just framework to get the real apps done on |
| 17:07.50 | kergoth | prpplague^2: not sure. depends. work is sending a coworker for the OE TSC meeting, not sure if they'd send me as well, need to ask |
| 17:08.06 | prpplague | kergoth: ahh ok |
| 17:08.16 | kergoth | you going? |
| 17:08.21 | prpplague | kergoth: presenting |
| 17:08.32 | kergoth | ah, nice, on what? pandaboard stuff, or..? |
| 17:08.43 | prpplague | kergoth: actually have a couple of slides on using OE to build minimal file systems for board bringup |
| 17:08.49 | kergoth | a7r: pretty good, quite busy, you? |
| 17:08.54 | kergoth | prpplague^2: ah, interesting |
| 17:08.58 | prpplague | kergoth: board bringup: open source source hardware and software tools |
| 17:09.09 | a7r | kergoth: same, building Linux products for people. using not-distros to do it. ;D |
| 17:09.15 | kergoth | I really need to start going to more conferences and presenting, my presentation skills are weak at best |
| 17:09.20 | prpplague | kergoth: follow up to last years presentation |
| 17:09.28 | kergoth | prpplague^2: nice |
| 17:09.47 | prpplague | kergoth: as are mine, one reason i've been submitting papers and such |
| 17:09.49 | kergoth | a7r: haha. well, plus side to us all still screwing with this stuff is.. at least we get paid for it |
| 17:10.01 | prpplague | kergoth: http://free-electrons.com/blog/elce-2010-videos/ |
| 17:10.04 | a7r | yup |
| 17:10.13 | prpplague | kergoth: you can see last year in cambridge |
| 17:11.14 | a7r | kergoth: did you start your own outfit, or are you working under a larger umbrella? |
| 17:12.05 | kergoth | a7r: what bugs me most is when the effort isn't shared. there just isn't enough cross-distro collaboration in either the desktop or embedded spaces. http://vcs-pkg.org/ has nice ideas, but nothing really panned out |
| 17:12.29 | a7r | kergoth: right, that's what I'm getting at. |
| 17:12.32 | kergoth | I work for Mentor Graphics on an OE-based product, before that worked for MontaVista on theirs |
| 17:12.34 | kergoth | nods |
| 17:12.45 | a7r | like how long ago did this stuff start. |
| 17:13.05 | a7r | checks the wayback machine. |
| 17:13.58 | kergoth | I quite like the idea of vcs-pkg, then each of the different distros just use different branches, but everyone would interact with the same sandbox(es) and feature branches for real changes that can be easily shared within that project |
| 17:14.04 | a7r | kergoth: by my watch, I did my first distribution release on Jan 17th, 2001. ;) |
| 17:14.12 | a7r | at least that's according to archive.org |
| 17:14.29 | a7r | looks at vcs-pkg. |
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| 17:15.05 | a7r | kergoth: you started your work after the Sharp Zaurus release in SF right? |
| 17:15.11 | kergoth | hmm, sl5000d dev program was dec of 2001, so the first openzaurus release must have been in early 2002 |
| 17:15.44 | a7r | right. |
| 17:15.59 | kergoth | damn, time flies |
| 17:18.52 | a7r | it seems like the biggest problem with embedded Linux is embedded developers. and I don't think can really fix that, except with time. |
| 17:19.27 | a7r | and people try to address that problem with Eclipse, and graphical firmware builders, etc. |
| 17:22.05 | kergoth | I think people trying to address it in that way may need to sort out their use cases a bit better. the people who really live and breathe guis and ides tend to be app developers, but they can't replace the person that builds and maintains the system the app will run on, and that person needs to have a clue, there's no getting around it |
| 17:22.12 | kergoth | heh |
| 17:22.40 | a7r | yup. |
| 17:28.11 | kergoth | it's interesting that with qemu development coming along as well as it is, some folks are moving back toward native vs cross. firmware linux for example is really quite nice, a really painless use of it that handles the active development case very well. not as good as a distro maintenance tool, but much less overhead than those tools tend to have |
| 17:28.43 | kergoth | (erm, aboriginal linux, one of these days the new name will stick in my head) |
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| 17:30.25 | Crofton|work | I'm going to do my best to poke the Yocto people to improve the dev tools available |
| 17:30.37 | Crofton|work | so we can make sw for embedded system easier for devs |
| 17:30.53 | a7r | kergoth: that is interesting. I've always done native builds with some cross filling in to speed things up, but if I had the choice I'd do everything native. |
| 17:31.53 | prpplague | and of course i still have my problems, but more work arounds now, with OE for doing board bringup, i have alot more recipes for minimal stuff available now |
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| 17:35.57 | a7r | besides dev, there are also the DFM/deployment issues.. like frameworks for manufacture programming/in-field reflashing/recovery |
| 17:36.21 | a7r | it seems like everyone cobbles together a solution for that. |
| 17:36.27 | a7r | not to mention versioning. : | |
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| 17:40.07 | kergoth | prpplague: make sure you're using bitbake 1.12 or newer for the quicker up front parsing |
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| 17:55.31 | prpplague | kergoth: will do |
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| 18:34.04 | GPSFan | prpplague, ping, Yes in fact I did. took a bit to get webm playing... finally had to install Chrome, firefox on a single core 2.4G box was running 100%cpu and getting 2-3seconds/frame. I think you did a good job of condensing and summarizing the basics. Maybe a little hard on us EE's (..;>)..) but there are lots of forces driving how one designs a board. I'm sure I've made most of those mistakes myself at one time or another. |
| 18:35.36 | kergoth | hrmph, between pycon and elce, i'm going to be watching videos for quite a while |
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| 19:42.02 | prpplague | GPSFan: thanks for the feedback |
| 19:42.27 | prpplague | GPSFan: next session will deal less with the hardware issues and more on tools |
| 19:42.42 | prpplague | GPSFan: open source hardware and software |
| 19:43.07 | prpplague | GPSFan: i.e. open source logic analyzers with open source software for LA's |
| 19:43.52 | prpplague | kergoth: have a look at my presentation, love to hear some feedback! |
| 19:44.00 | kergoth | will do |
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| 22:20.09 | prpplague | GPSFan: ping |
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