| 00:28.35 | *** part/#edev adyer (~adyer@173-161-64-17-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 01:08.31 | *** join/#edev avinashhm (~avinash-h@192.94.92.14) |
| 01:36.59 | *** join/#edev djerome (~djerome@ip24-251-138-141.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 02:09.55 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: most places will extract a netlist from the gerbers unless you provide one |
| 02:10.12 | MonMotha | the resulting board then has all the major exposed PCB features tested to verify the connectivity is the same as the netlist |
| 02:10.37 | MonMotha | and yeah, the 4pcb quoting system should handle that nicely |
| 02:10.52 | MonMotha | the etest will probably cost almost as much as the fabrication |
| 02:13.44 | MonMotha | I've used a few other quickturn PCB vendors and keep coming back to 4pcb, so I guess they're pretty good |
| 02:44.06 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: thank you for clarifying that |
| 02:44.29 | edboogie2011 | i love how the people here are fewer in number, but soooo much more pro than the peeps in #avr |
| 02:45.07 | MonMotha | well, I do this stuff professionally. I think most of the people in #avr are hobbyists (or at least the hobbyists greatly outnumber the professionals) |
| 02:45.32 | MonMotha | not that there's a problem with hobbyists, but when you do it daily for money, you tend to learn some tricks :) |
| 02:45.39 | edboogie2011 | yeah i can tell a lot of people here have churned out a couple |
| 02:45.48 | edboogie2011 | products to market |
| 02:45.57 | MonMotha | speaking of, if you need development assistance, I accept money in exchange for providing such assistance :) |
| 02:46.26 | edboogie2011 | thats very nice of you, but i just finished my design |
| 02:46.35 | edboogie2011 | i am having more trouble procuring parts from china |
| 02:46.50 | edboogie2011 | i don't trust sending money to china |
| 02:47.29 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: have you dealt with manufacturing or procurement? |
| 02:47.34 | edboogie2011 | especially in Asia/ |
| 02:47.35 | edboogie2011 | ? |
| 02:47.52 | MonMotha | yes, a fair bit, but not in Asia |
| 02:48.05 | MonMotha | my runs are normally small enough that it's not justified |
| 02:48.12 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: where are you from? |
| 02:48.17 | ohsix | #avr has fans foo |
| 02:48.18 | MonMotha | Indianapolis area |
| 02:48.19 | edboogie2011 | if you don't mind me asking |
| 02:48.37 | MonMotha | (so Central Indiana, USA) |
| 02:48.52 | MonMotha | ohsix: fans? |
| 02:49.14 | edboogie2011 | oh okay, so I guess since you deal with small QTY, you just use good old reliable expensive digikey |
| 02:49.17 | edboogie2011 | ? |
| 02:49.19 | ohsix | evangelists? |
| 02:49.45 | edboogie2011 | i've never programmed an arduino or an AVR, is it cool/. |
| 02:49.47 | edboogie2011 | ? |
| 02:49.52 | edboogie2011 | I went straight to ARM |
| 02:49.54 | edboogie2011 | and i love it |
| 02:50.03 | edboogie2011 | i own a few |
| 02:50.14 | edboogie2011 | well an arduino |
| 02:50.17 | edboogie2011 | i own one of those |
| 02:51.01 | MonMotha | ohsix: ah |
| 02:51.17 | edboogie2011 | in the cheapo MCU market, is AVR the clear choice? |
| 02:51.23 | edboogie2011 | or is there never a clear choice |
| 02:51.24 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: oh, I buy from places other than digikey, but digikey is a handy last resort for when you need it tomorrow and don't care what it costs |
| 02:51.51 | ohsix | they're a little more expensive but they've kind of found their market with the arduino stuff |
| 02:52.00 | MonMotha | if you want larger quantities and/or more competitive prices and have a few weeks to handle things, AVnet and Arrow are pretty good |
| 02:52.23 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: do you use aggragators like findchips.com or octopart? |
| 02:52.25 | MonMotha | 8-bit AVR (and, to some degree, AVR32 UC3) generally require fewer supporting components than most ARMs |
| 02:52.45 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: rarely. I've been known to run things through octopart when either I can't find something or I want a sanity check on what I've been quoted |
| 02:53.31 | MonMotha | ohsix: some of the small AVRs can get way cheaper than even a fairly small ARM, but they're a lot less capable |
| 02:53.37 | MonMotha | the AVRs can all run at 5V if that's important |
| 02:53.53 | MonMotha | and the "picopower" ones do have crazy low power shutdown modes |
| 02:53.54 | ohsix | if you stick with atmel or whatever yea, that's another reason it's less important now |
| 02:55.42 | edboogie2011 | but what about AVR vs PIC vs TI MSP430, which is lowest power? |
| 02:55.58 | edboogie2011 | i thought TI MSP430 was THE lowest power |
| 02:56.01 | edboogie2011 | when i was in school |
| 02:56.23 | edboogie2011 | quite an old chip though now |
| 02:57.41 | edboogie2011 | oh wait and AVR doesn't make 16 bit |
| 02:57.44 | edboogie2011 | mcus |
| 02:59.40 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: MSP430 is also very low power. The Atmel picopower is roughly the same with slightly differing wakeup methods |
| 03:01.27 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: well, there's AVR XMEGA, but it never caught on |
| 03:01.43 | edboogie2011 | i'm guessing XMEGA is top of the line? |
| 03:01.46 | MonMotha | I'd generally say just go with an ARM unless you have a compelling reason not to and you need more than a slow, simple 8-bit MCU |
| 03:01.47 | edboogie2011 | to compete with ARM? |
| 03:01.57 | MonMotha | no, AVR32 would compete with ARM (note that Atmel also makes ARMs) |
| 03:02.50 | edboogie2011 | but is ARM power efficient, i guess something like the NXP LPC M0 ARM line is something for the low power ARMs? |
| 03:03.03 | edboogie2011 | I have never designed anything that ran on batteries |
| 03:03.22 | MonMotha | well, they're roughly comparable in most cases on a "power for a given performance" basis |
| 03:03.32 | MonMotha | and if you have good shutdown modes, you can just idle the CPU as needed |
| 03:03.49 | MonMotha | some also allow DMA to proceed during shutdown, which could actually give a better power profile than an AVR |
| 03:04.27 | SpeedEvil | And depending on the workload - a biger processor can be a _lot_ more energy efficient |
| 03:04.36 | MonMotha | yup |
| 03:04.59 | edboogie2011 | bigger processor? higher speed? |
| 03:05.06 | SpeedEvil | My phone will do a billion operations a second on a watt or so. |
| 03:05.07 | edboogie2011 | what do you mean by bigger? |
| 03:05.14 | SpeedEvil | Phone CPU |
| 03:05.52 | SpeedEvil | A small 8 bit CPU may take 3 hours to do the same amount of computation it does in 1 second. |
| 03:06.09 | SpeedEvil | And use lots more energy in total. |
| 03:06.15 | edboogie2011 | ok, are we going to see multicore microcontrollers, or is that never going to happen? i guess the benefit is energy efficiency? |
| 03:06.22 | SpeedEvil | It's already happening. |
| 03:06.24 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: right that makes obvious sense |
| 03:06.43 | SpeedEvil | But not quite yet in a big way |
| 03:06.53 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: are you talking about ARM A9 or something? |
| 03:07.02 | edboogie2011 | like the highend smartphone ARMs |
| 03:07.07 | edboogie2011 | with dual core |
| 03:07.07 | SpeedEvil | I forget which arm series. A late model TI OMAP |
| 03:07.08 | SpeedEvil | yes |
| 03:07.13 | SpeedEvil | Single core |
| 03:07.13 | edboogie2011 | yeah omap |
| 03:07.22 | SpeedEvil | Stuff like the propellor, for example. |
| 03:07.42 | edboogie2011 | i just bought a dual core HTC 3D phone, rediculous performance in my hand |
| 03:07.46 | SpeedEvil | What is in principle very interesting is assymetric cores which are softeawre compatible. |
| 03:08.11 | SpeedEvil | So you might have a high-power core which can go to 1G, and a low-power core which can tick over at 100MHz |
| 03:08.29 | SpeedEvil | Some of htis can be eliminated by smart coding. |
| 03:08.42 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: what are the benefits to that? |
| 03:08.54 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: shut down the faster core |
| 03:08.57 | edboogie2011 | when not needed? |
| 03:08.58 | SpeedEvil | For example - if your main CPU can DMA out data to a DAC while 'aslee' - and just wake up every 30s to chunk data at a DAC |
| 03:09.12 | SpeedEvil | decoding from mp3 |
| 03:09.57 | SpeedEvil | Shut down the faster core, while allowing any software to run on that core, not merely being a seperate core with a different program which can do nothing but wake the main CPU |
| 03:10.38 | MonMotha | yup |
| 03:10.45 | MonMotha | that's very powerful (sleep while you DMA) |
| 03:10.48 | edboogie2011 | wow thats interesting |
| 03:11.51 | edboogie2011 | do these assymmetric processors exist yet? or is this just going on in the research realm? |
| 03:12.00 | MonMotha | I did a design about a year and a half ago that had an AVR32 that took FFTs constantly (~15ksps throughput, 16 bit samples) AND ran an 802.15.4 radio all the time (no powersave due to a badly designed base station) AND actually ran the A/D to do the sampling constantly |
| 03:12.06 | MonMotha | ran about 24 hours on a set of 2xAAA |
| 03:12.09 | SpeedEvil | There was a AMD? I think product launch a couple of days ago |
| 03:12.20 | SpeedEvil | On a 5 core processor (I think) with one low power one |
| 03:12.25 | MonMotha | you mean asynchronous designs? |
| 03:16.40 | SpeedEvil | Oops - nvidia |
| 03:16.44 | SpeedEvil | http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800652159_499489_NP_9fd4d98f.HTM |
| 03:17.02 | edboogie2011 | yeah are there products out there with assymetric cores and software that uses it well |
| 03:17.07 | edboogie2011 | for high efficiency |
| 03:17.33 | edboogie2011 | this is the kind of class i would like to have taken in college |
| 03:17.48 | SpeedEvil | Though even processors that 'do it wrong' can be low power to a degree. |
| 03:18.10 | SpeedEvil | For example - above mentioned phone has the CPU running at 300MHz all the time (its lowest step) when outputting audio |
| 03:18.21 | SpeedEvil | But uses .14 watts. (playing mp3) |
| 03:19.48 | SpeedEvil | Also - the above... 'exceed the thermal limits of what you can do in a smartphone' |
| 03:20.13 | SpeedEvil | Has someone invented a new battery yesterday that would make that not the elephant in the room? |
| 03:21.20 | MonMotha | I think it's generally accepted these days that the best thing to do for power is normally run the CPU full out to get the job done as quickly as possible then go into the lowest sleep mode available |
| 03:21.37 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: its that simple? |
| 03:21.47 | MonMotha | of course, if you can't make it into the sleep mode due to some factor, then just never clocking up (if you can get the job done in the slow mode you're forced into) is better |
| 03:21.49 | dalias | i'm pretty sure it's that simple |
| 03:21.52 | edboogie2011 | pretty old concept |
| 03:21.55 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: often yes, but see above caveat |
| 03:22.17 | MonMotha | but that's why Linux's default CPU throttling mechanism is "ondemand" now for everything |
| 03:22.39 | dalias | the concept applies everywhere, not just cpus |
| 03:22.42 | MonMotha | the CPUs scale up so fast that it doesn't really hurt performance, and it usually results in lower power consumption overall AND better performance than the "power miser" type stuff |
| 03:22.42 | dalias | same for engines |
| 03:23.08 | dalias | most efficient way to run a car is accelerate to above cruising speed, then cut the engine entirely |
| 03:23.17 | dalias | and pop the clutch to restart it when you get too slow |
| 03:23.23 | MonMotha | well, combustion engines usually have both a "high power" operating area AND a "fuel efficient" operating region |
| 03:23.27 | MonMotha | the regions do not always overlap |
| 03:23.42 | MonMotha | but the fuel efficient region is much higher than highway cruise speed |
| 03:24.11 | edboogie2011 | dalias: yeah but what you are describing is unsafe, driving in neutral is bad practice |
| 03:24.23 | dalias | nonsense |
| 03:24.24 | edboogie2011 | you should always be in gear |
| 03:24.26 | MonMotha | typically seems to be about 3000-4000RPM, where as the power region is usually 4000-6000RPM (typical passenger gas vehicle) |
| 03:24.29 | SpeedEvil | edboogie2011: Depends on the car. |
| 03:24.36 | SpeedEvil | edboogie2011: Some do it automagically. |
| 03:24.37 | MonMotha | oh, I don't think he's saying it's a good idea, just fuel efficient :) |
| 03:24.47 | dalias | besides as soon as you pop the clutch you are in gear |
| 03:24.53 | MonMotha | that said, on a manual it's quite feasible |
| 03:25.03 | edboogie2011 | if i see you coast around out of gear in my porsche i won't be happt |
| 03:25.03 | MonMotha | on an automatic less so |
| 03:25.03 | dalias | and if the engine fails to restart you just have better engine braking power |
| 03:25.06 | edboogie2011 | happy* |
| 03:25.22 | dalias | and it is the mst efficient |
| 03:25.22 | edboogie2011 | i rather you be at a higher rpm |
| 03:25.25 | SpeedEvil | You get a large slice of the benefit by leaving the throttle open, and PWMing the engine |
| 03:25.28 | dalias | as an experiment i did it for a long highway drive |
| 03:25.32 | SpeedEvil | at ~1s or so, as I understand it. |
| 03:25.41 | dalias | and got about 48mpg on a car that usually gets ~33mpg |
| 03:25.44 | SpeedEvil | turn the injectors on/off |
| 03:26.23 | dalias | you get even more benefit tho by eliminating engine braking |
| 03:26.41 | SpeedEvil | Engine braking is much, much reduced with a wide open throttle |
| 03:26.54 | dalias | and eliminating gas consumption at the same time by cutting the engine off |
| 03:27.07 | SpeedEvil | Modern engines use no fuel at all on coast-down |
| 03:27.13 | SpeedEvil | If the driver is not demanding power |
| 03:27.20 | MonMotha | SpeedEvil: that technique seems inordinately hard on an engine |
| 03:27.29 | dalias | right, but the way it keeps turning is by consuming momentum |
| 03:27.42 | dalias | i.e. slowing you down faster than just air resistence |
| 03:28.10 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: On any basis - other than the high average power, and lower than optimal temperature. |
| 03:28.17 | edboogie2011 | i do kind of get what your saying because how do those very efficient V8s work.. i mean a V8 has a lot more power, how is it more efficient also? |
| 03:28.20 | SpeedEvil | Momentum is conserved |
| 03:28.29 | SpeedEvil | It's friction that's the issue |
| 03:28.35 | dalias | speedevil, no, there's friction in the engine |
| 03:28.57 | dalias | when you "coast" in gear, you're converting the car's momentum to heat in the engine |
| 03:29.03 | SpeedEvil | Ah - you mean the momentum of the car in the friction - not the rotation |
| 03:29.04 | SpeedEvil | right |
| 03:29.23 | dalias | keeping the engine turning requires overcoming friction |
| 03:29.28 | SpeedEvil | Yup |
| 03:29.50 | dalias | anyway you can test it yoursef if you like, in any manual :) |
| 03:30.01 | dalias | you can get +20-30% efficiency |
| 03:30.13 | SpeedEvil | +100% |
| 03:30.17 | dalias | but it's probably rather illegal (cutting the ignition off on the highway :) |
| 03:30.24 | SpeedEvil | If you do it extreme. |
| 03:30.52 | dalias | and your speed won't be stable |
| 03:30.57 | SpeedEvil | indeed |
| 03:31.15 | dalias | if you make the pulses really short, you spend too much energy bringing the engine back up to speed again and again |
| 03:31.18 | SpeedEvil | Hence why I was wondering about the PWM idea |
| 03:31.30 | SpeedEvil | It's minimal mods, and eliminates throttle losses |
| 03:32.01 | dalias | imo just go electric |
| 03:32.05 | dalias | then PWM is easy |
| 03:32.19 | SpeedEvil | Electric is great. |
| 03:32.27 | SpeedEvil | If you can source batteries from Narnia. |
| 03:32.27 | MonMotha | I'm not sure that trick works nearly as well on electric |
| 03:32.36 | dalias | and put the motors in the wheel hubs and eliminate all mechanical drive components |
| 03:32.39 | edboogie2011 | do turbochargers increase fuel efficiency? i hear it guzzles gas but used correctly you get more MPG |
| 03:32.42 | SpeedEvil | And no, it's mostly irrelevant in batteries. |
| 03:32.44 | dalias | and thereby 30% vehicle mass |
| 03:32.48 | SpeedEvil | edboogie2011: Yes. |
| 03:32.55 | SpeedEvil | edboogie2011: But only near full throttle |
| 03:32.59 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: what is correctly? |
| 03:33.11 | edboogie2011 | ohh while the turbos are fully spooling |
| 03:33.15 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: increasing engine design compression also works and accomplishes things similarly to a turbo |
| 03:33.19 | SpeedEvil | The most efficient IC engine was a F1 engine |
| 03:33.39 | SpeedEvil | _STUPID_ compression, turbochargers out the tailpipe, and ... |
| 03:33.49 | SpeedEvil | Where is that article |
| 03:34.12 | dalias | anyway |
| 03:34.12 | MonMotha | yeah, that'll do it |
| 03:34.15 | dalias | same applies in cpus :) |
| 03:34.19 | MonMotha | and you'll need 150 octane fuel to run it :) |
| 03:34.22 | edboogie2011 | dalias: lol |
| 03:34.23 | dalias | run it hardcore momentarily then halt it |
| 03:34.30 | dalias | and you save power |
| 03:34.45 | dalias | you can prolly even get by with overclocking it 3x that way |
| 03:34.56 | MonMotha | 3x might be problematic on a typical embedded CPU |
| 03:34.57 | edboogie2011 | wait.. if you want the turbos spooling all the time, what about twin turbos? one for te low RPM, and one for the high, then it doesn;t matter right? |
| 03:35.01 | dalias | as long as you give it time to cool ;-) |
| 03:35.03 | MonMotha | they're normally process limited, not thermally |
| 03:35.11 | dalias | half kidding |
| 03:35.25 | edboogie2011 | my friend's twin turbo BMW 335 get lik 32mpg driven like and idiot |
| 03:35.28 | dalias | but you could probably get some extra oc, maybe 10-20% |
| 03:35.33 | MonMotha | I usually find that much more than 2x is a risky :) |
| 03:35.46 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: is that a diesel? |
| 03:35.50 | edboogie2011 | no |
| 03:35.53 | edboogie2011 | just gas |
| 03:35.53 | MonMotha | really... |
| 03:35.55 | edboogie2011 | yes |
| 03:36.03 | MonMotha | because my 325 only gets ~28MPG |
| 03:36.06 | edboogie2011 | 3 liter, straight six. twin turbo |
| 03:36.06 | MonMotha | it is AWD, though |
| 03:36.10 | edboogie2011 | and he drives it like an idiot |
| 03:36.14 | MonMotha | a 335 would be a 3.5L |
| 03:36.20 | edboogie2011 | mm no |
| 03:36.22 | MonMotha | and I thought they were all diesel |
| 03:36.26 | edboogie2011 | 3.0 L twin turbo |
| 03:36.29 | edboogie2011 | i'm pretty sure |
| 03:36.40 | MonMotha | well, that would be a departure from their normal numbering scheme |
| 03:36.59 | edboogie2011 | i think the 330 is a 3.0L natural aspirated |
| 03:36.59 | MonMotha | what you describe would be a 330, and I wasn't aware that the had turbos from the factory (but kits are readily available) |
| 03:37.09 | edboogie2011 | and the 335 is 3.0L turbo |
| 03:37.27 | edboogie2011 | that numbering scheme makes sense |
| 03:37.38 | edboogie2011 | whatever i don't like beamers |
| 03:37.41 | edboogie2011 | or their owners |
| 03:37.42 | MonMotha | hum, I guess that is |
| 03:37.52 | MonMotha | and no, that numbering scheme makes NO sense |
| 03:37.57 | edboogie2011 | lol |
| 03:38.05 | MonMotha | it used to be that the last two numbers were displacement in deciliters |
| 03:38.14 | MonMotha | i.e. a 325 was a 3 series, 2.5L |
| 03:38.19 | MonMotha | a 330 was a 3 series 3.0L |
| 03:38.33 | MonMotha | so the 335 being a 3.0L twin turbo is a departure from that |
| 03:38.50 | edboogie2011 | yeah i'm a young guy so i don't know the history of those numbers |
| 03:38.59 | edboogie2011 | but i guess your right |
| 03:40.52 | MonMotha | mine is old (E46), so I'm not overly familiar with the new lines |
| 03:41.25 | edboogie2011 | MonMotha: sorry about the beamer owner comment |
| 03:41.26 | edboogie2011 | lol |
| 03:41.34 | MonMotha | heh |
| 03:42.18 | edboogie2011 | thats actually the nicest looking one before they got worse, i think that one had the cockpit style dash |
| 03:42.49 | MonMotha | I do prefer the old body style to the new |
| 03:42.59 | MonMotha | I really do not like the current 5 series |
| 03:43.10 | SpeedEvil | http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.tech/browse_thread/thread/e56834bed2269931/78f2ae7c6f248fac?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22formula+one%22+octane+turbo* |
| 03:43.13 | SpeedEvil | ah - right |
| 03:43.32 | SpeedEvil | _fascinating_ article on the evolution of F1 engines, and their efficiency. |
| 03:43.43 | SpeedEvil | Â From Honda Civic to Formula 1 winner. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â |
| 03:46.17 | SpeedEvil | 32% fuel->mechanical |
| 03:56.32 | edboogie2011 | if anybody can recommend someone to help me procure some parts from china. that would be great. thats my current life problem right now. |
| 03:56.57 | MonMotha | edboogie2011: don't :) |
| 03:57.09 | MonMotha | The few times I've been forced into doing it, I've had problems. |
| 03:57.17 | SpeedEvil | 'some' |
| 03:57.21 | edboogie2011 | lol.. what problems? |
| 03:57.24 | SpeedEvil | 4, or a 40 foot container? |
| 03:57.33 | edboogie2011 | oh nothing that big |
| 03:57.40 | MonMotha | honestly, the Chinese supply chains seem mostly geared toward supplying Chinese CMs |
| 03:57.42 | edboogie2011 | i can't air mail it |
| 03:57.50 | edboogie2011 | because the parts have a tiny bit of liquid in them |
| 03:57.59 | MonMotha | liquid? what are these? |
| 03:58.01 | SpeedEvil | What parts |
| 03:58.05 | SpeedEvil | You can email liquids |
| 03:58.09 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 03:58.10 | SpeedEvil | airmail |
| 03:58.11 | MonMotha | email? |
| 03:58.13 | MonMotha | there you go :) |
| 03:58.22 | MonMotha | now DCC me a sandwich, would you? |
| 03:58.26 | edboogie2011 | probes |
| 03:58.39 | edboogie2011 | they are probes with like calibration fluid in them |
| 03:58.47 | edboogie2011 | i don't want to go into great detail |
| 03:58.50 | edboogie2011 | i want to buy 100 of them |
| 03:58.52 | edboogie2011 | just to sample |
| 03:59.00 | edboogie2011 | not a container's worth |
| 03:59.07 | MonMotha | well, at that quantity, just FedEx 'em |
| 03:59.16 | edboogie2011 | FedEx air? |
| 03:59.21 | edboogie2011 | do they do non-air |
| 03:59.23 | edboogie2011 | ? |
| 03:59.29 | edboogie2011 | like by sea or something |
| 03:59.33 | MonMotha | I'm surprised that worked... |
| 03:59.57 | MonMotha | considering that you're on IPv4 (Tor, no less), and I'm on IPv6 |
| 03:59.58 | edboogie2011 | SpeedEvil: really? you can mail liquids? |
| 04:00.13 | edboogie2011 | I thought the factory told me they couldn't |
| 04:00.16 | MonMotha | and yeah, FedEx will do anything you ask :) |
| 04:00.18 | edboogie2011 | I better ask again |
| 04:00.21 | edboogie2011 | lol |
| 04:00.27 | SpeedEvil | The price may rise, in some cases |
| 04:00.29 | MonMotha | if you want something on the moon, I'm sure they'll quote you a price :) |
| 04:00.29 | edboogie2011 | i am also afraid to pay them |
| 04:00.39 | edboogie2011 | because i don't trust china |
| 04:00.41 | MonMotha | though you'll probably be routed through the custom critical divison |
| 04:00.43 | edboogie2011 | and my money going there |
| 04:00.44 | SpeedEvil | edboogie2011: Don't forget about duties and customs on the other end |
| 04:00.46 | MonMotha | well, good luck with that one |
| 04:00.48 | edboogie2011 | i wish i had a friend there |
| 04:00.59 | MonMotha | most places just take wire transfers and/or western union |
| 04:01.21 | MonMotha | and good luck suing a chinese company in china if you get screwed on the transaction |
| 04:01.47 | MonMotha | can you just not buy these from a US supplier |
| 04:01.48 | MonMotha | ? |
| 04:06.39 | edboogie2011 | US suppliers cost a lot more |
| 04:07.24 | edboogie2011 | yeah i didn't know china was filled with kangaroo courts... i'd be sooo scared to run a business there |
| 04:09.41 | edboogie2011 | i assume some government goon could walk into your shop at any point and take over your operation and send you to court |
| 04:09.42 | MonMotha | my experience would be that the US suppliers cost more for several reasons, but amongst them the fact that they actually sell what they advertise (usually) |
| 04:22.32 | dalias | :) |
| 04:22.40 | dalias | oh by the way... |
| 04:22.47 | dalias | would you like a rolex with your order? :) |
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