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| 12:17.16 | g1powermac | hey prpplague |
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| 14:28.04 | g1powermac | anyone know of an easy to use (ie PDIP format), cheap, 3.3v adc? |
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| 15:10.18 | MonMotha | g1powermac: IIRC, TI and Maxim had products along those lines. They were mostly slow with SPI interfaces, though. |
| 15:12.14 | g1powermac | MonMotha, thanks, though I think I'm gonna change chips to one with an integrated adc |
| 15:12.37 | MonMotha | g1powermac: probably a good idea if possible |
| 15:15.01 | g1powermac | yea |
| 15:15.12 | g1powermac | I just wanted two UARTs and an ADC at the same time ;-) |
| 15:21.00 | g1powermac | this AT89C51AC3 chip is quite nice |
| 15:23.23 | g1powermac | at only $10.75 a chip vs $25 for the ds89c450, its a good deal |
| 15:23.40 | g1powermac | only thing is it doesn't come in PDIP, but PLCC ain't that bad |
| 15:23.56 | MonMotha | that sounds like an ancient chip... |
| 15:24.12 | g1powermac | its an 8051, they're all mostly ancient |
| 15:24.18 | MonMotha | is 8051 required? |
| 15:24.35 | g1powermac | yup, cause its the one mcu I really know :-) |
| 15:24.42 | MonMotha | I see |
| 15:24.44 | MonMotha | that's going to limit you |
| 15:24.55 | MonMotha | since I know you can get e.g. AVRs with two UART + ADC in DIP |
| 15:25.01 | MonMotha | and they're faster and cheaper |
| 15:25.05 | g1powermac | ya I know |
| 15:25.17 | g1powermac | though this 8051 can be clocked at 60mhz |
| 15:26.06 | MonMotha | is it single cycle? |
| 15:26.15 | g1powermac | its one of them enhanced 8051s |
| 15:26.39 | MonMotha | right, but how many clocks per instruction? Most of the 60MHz ones seem to be 6-12 |
| 15:26.52 | MonMotha | the single cycle cores usually seem to be limited to ~16-32MHz |
| 15:27.20 | g1powermac | ahh, yea, its 6 cycles |
| 15:27.37 | MonMotha | then you can roughly match it with an AVR at 20MHz |
| 15:27.47 | g1powermac | that is one advantage of the ds89c450 iirc |
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| 15:28.11 | MonMotha | there are faster AVRs, but you don't get 2 UART + ADC on them, it seems |
| 15:28.19 | MonMotha | you can get a lot more performance out of an ARM, but not usually in PDIP |
| 15:28.30 | MonMotha | though NXP just released a Cortex M0 in DIP |
| 15:28.42 | g1powermac | ya, though no reason to have an arm sample sensor readings |
| 15:28.59 | MonMotha | looks like only 1 UART, though |
| 15:29.16 | g1powermac | oh now that is interesting, may have to look at that Cortex chip for other things |
| 15:29.52 | MonMotha | LPC1114FN28 |
| 15:30.45 | g1powermac | that is an interesting chip right there |
| 15:31.53 | g1powermac | it can't run linux, right? |
| 15:32.01 | MonMotha | oh, no |
| 15:32.05 | g1powermac | didn't think so |
| 15:32.12 | MonMotha | not nearly enough memory, and it doesn't have an MMU |
| 15:32.25 | g1powermac | its been awhile since I've looked at arm stuff |
| 15:32.37 | MonMotha | if it had more memory, you could maybe do uClinux, but not on 32k of flash and 4k of RAM :) |
| 15:32.52 | g1powermac | no external memory interface I'd presume? |
| 15:33.11 | MonMotha | I doubt it |
| 15:34.27 | g1powermac | still cool though if you want to play with the arm architecture |
| 15:36.07 | g1powermac | I've been eyeing this thing as a master controller for my sensor network: http://www.andahammer.com/mini35-sdk/ |
| 15:37.04 | Spida | g1powermac: what are you sensing? |
| 15:37.40 | g1powermac | Spida, temperature, humdity, soil moisture, light intensity in many different locations |
| 15:37.56 | g1powermac | basically to keep track of plant growing conditions |
| 15:38.12 | g1powermac | then I'd like to branch it out to control the irrigation system I'm going to install |
| 15:39.21 | g1powermac | I'd like to use the atmel chip above with Xbees for the wireless comms with the sensor network |
| 15:40.39 | g1powermac | then put the mini35 outside in a waterproof box so I can control it all outside with that, or inside via one of my computers |
| 15:41.26 | Spida | g1powermac: what sensor nodes are you using? |
| 15:41.51 | g1powermac | Spida, as in the actual sensor part numbers? |
| 15:41.52 | Mirell | SpeedEvil: They do the BigIP products |
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| 15:45.02 | Spida | g1powermac: you build these yourself? |
| 15:45.53 | g1powermac | Spida, going to, yes |
| 15:46.24 | MonMotha | g1powermac: I am not fond of the xbee |
| 15:46.27 | MonMotha | the receiver sucks |
| 15:46.33 | MonMotha | and the firmware..well, that sucks too :) |
| 15:46.33 | g1powermac | oh? |
| 15:46.56 | MonMotha | the TI and Atmel 802.15.4 transceivers are much better |
| 15:47.04 | MonMotha | though the firmware they provide sucks, too :) |
| 15:47.10 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 15:47.16 | MonMotha | but at least they provide source, so you can hack on it and fix it |
| 15:47.39 | g1powermac | is there a ready made board like the xbee from either ti or atmel? |
| 15:47.49 | MonMotha | yes |
| 15:48.14 | MonMotha | TI has somebody else make theirs |
| 15:48.46 | MonMotha | http://www.lsr.com/products/radio_modules/802.15.4/proflex-01.aspx are the TI ones |
| 15:48.53 | g1powermac | are they price comparable? I can get the xbee for $17 a board |
| 15:48.57 | Spida | actually, I am having a DEEP look into some sensor-network-protocols now |
| 15:49.10 | MonMotha | the Atmel one is the "Zigbit" |
| 15:49.17 | MonMotha | yeah, but they're not through-hole |
| 15:49.32 | MonMotha | IIRC, the Zigbits are like $20-30 in qty 1 from mainstream distributors |
| 15:49.37 | MonMotha | you can probably find them cheaper on e.g. ebay |
| 15:49.37 | g1powermac | MonMotha, yea I seen the zigbits |
| 15:49.49 | g1powermac | but they don't come with antennas |
| 15:49.59 | g1powermac | I'm not messing with antenna design |
| 15:50.00 | MonMotha | the xbees do? |
| 15:50.04 | g1powermac | yes |
| 15:50.09 | MonMotha | most people just chuck a commercial antenna on them |
| 15:50.13 | MonMotha | well, ok |
| 15:50.18 | g1powermac | they have chip antennas |
| 15:50.18 | MonMotha | I *hate hate hate* the xbee modules |
| 15:50.22 | MonMotha | I've had to deal with them...they're terrible |
| 15:50.28 | MonMotha | oh, well, you can get a zigbit with a chip antenna |
| 15:50.34 | g1powermac | oh? |
| 15:50.41 | MonMotha | I'm not fond of the MCU that Atmel pairs with the transceiver on the zigbit |
| 15:50.51 | MonMotha | it's old (as is the transceiver, but it workS) |
| 15:51.16 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 15:51.25 | g1powermac | I seen avr zigbits |
| 15:51.33 | g1powermac | is that what you are referring to? |
| 15:51.34 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 15:51.37 | MonMotha | that's what they all are |
| 15:51.45 | MonMotha | it's an 86RF230 paired with some old AVR |
| 15:51.47 | g1powermac | k, though I didn't see one with antennas |
| 15:51.53 | MonMotha | Mega1281 |
| 15:52.01 | MonMotha | http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4539 |
| 15:52.16 | MonMotha | the transceiver is actually pretty good |
| 15:52.29 | MonMotha | I'm just not fond of the overall module due to the MCU being ancient |
| 15:52.31 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 15:52.36 | MonMotha | like seriously it's 6-7 years old |
| 15:52.54 | MonMotha | but the xbee is even worse :) |
| 15:53.14 | g1powermac | hmmmmm |
| 15:53.15 | MonMotha | interest in "Zigbee" seems to have died out in the commercial world, which is probably for the better |
| 15:53.24 | MonMotha | but there just don't seem to be a lot of good "modules" out there |
| 15:53.45 | MonMotha | I think the primary market for 802.15.4 at this point is high volume stuff where they design the transceiver directly in for cost reasons |
| 15:53.53 | MonMotha | i.e. smart metering |
| 15:53.56 | MonMotha | er e.g. |
| 15:54.22 | g1powermac | only pain is the surface mount part of these modules |
| 15:55.08 | g1powermac | I wanted to whip this stuff together on protoboards |
| 15:56.00 | MonMotha | the xbee isn't standard pitch, is it? |
| 15:56.09 | MonMotha | I thought it was 2mm |
| 15:57.01 | g1powermac | oh good question, I assumed it was standard |
| 15:58.10 | MonMotha | I didn't find the zigbits TOO hard to solder down, but you definitely need a PCB designed for it |
| 15:58.17 | MonMotha | and I would have hated to do it without a soldermask, too |
| 15:58.35 | MonMotha | now REMOVING it and switching in a different module...that was a pain |
| 15:59.09 | g1powermac | yea, what about these TI modules? |
| 15:59.55 | MonMotha | they're a similar formfactor |
| 15:59.59 | MonMotha | I haven't worked with them much |
| 16:00.31 | MonMotha | there are some lesser names that claim to have transceivers that are highly multipath resistant (which is the mortal enemy of 802.15.4), but I've not played with them |
| 16:03.05 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:03.26 | g1powermac | personally I wish I could use the cc2350 |
| 16:03.46 | g1powermac | but I'd have to buy TI's expensive compiler to use their zstack software with it |
| 16:04.26 | Spida | g1powermac: what protocol do you want to run over 802.15.4? |
| 16:05.12 | g1powermac | well, I haven't gone deep into that yet |
| 16:05.52 | g1powermac | I know with the xbee you interface with it via UART and use AT commands over it |
| 16:07.25 | Spida | ah, ok |
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| 16:07.47 | Spida | thats at least one abstraction layer over what I am doing |
| 16:08.08 | g1powermac | ahh, you're closer to the hardware level, ehh? |
| 16:09.11 | g1powermac | I was looking at general radio transcievers, but I really didn't want to mess with rf stuff |
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| 16:10.51 | Spida | I am playing with routing in mesh networks |
| 16:11.55 | g1powermac | basically I'd be happy with a 'wireless' serial bus of sorts with one or two masters and a bunch of slave devices |
| 16:15.13 | g1powermac | no need for fancy stuff |
| 16:16.10 | g1powermac | MonMotha, would you think the xbee would work fine for something like this? |
| 16:37.53 | g1powermac | MonMotha, I can't find any confirmation on the pin spacing of the xbee |
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| 16:49.50 | MonMotha | g1powermac: probably. The receiver is just kinda blah |
| 16:51.07 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 16:51.30 | g1powermac | I'm thinking of going with the first series xbee because its point to multipoint |
| 16:51.35 | g1powermac | basically what I want to build |
| 16:51.57 | MonMotha | well, the 802.15.4 MAC supports all sorts of topologies |
| 16:52.13 | MonMotha | any module worth its salt should support anything the underlying standard cna |
| 16:52.36 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:52.38 | MonMotha | xbee is actually kinda restrictive in that it doesn't support indirect traffic, so you can't do meshing |
| 16:52.47 | MonMotha | though they may have fixed that in newer firmware |
| 16:52.54 | g1powermac | supposedly you can with the newer series |
| 16:53.07 | MonMotha | well, their "newer" series is Zigbee |
| 16:53.14 | MonMotha | they released it about the same time most people seemed to give up on it :) |
| 16:53.20 | MonMotha | (gave up on Zigbee) |
| 16:53.24 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 16:53.42 | MonMotha | Zigbee is kinda overly complicated, and it has somewhat restrictive licensing |
| 16:54.00 | MonMotha | the new thing seems to be 6LoWPAN with various mesh discovery/routing protocol |
| 16:54.01 | MonMotha | s |
| 16:54.18 | MonMotha | the 6LoWPAN working group is working on a standardized routing/discovery protocol |
| 16:54.36 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:54.43 | MonMotha | but the cool thing about 6LoWPAN is that it is IPv6 compatible. You can just route to the nodes as though they're part of the internet |
| 16:55.15 | g1powermac | interesting |
| 16:55.23 | g1powermac | albeit way more complicated then I need |
| 16:55.31 | MonMotha | eh, it's actually pretty simple |
| 16:55.39 | MonMotha | you can just run UDP or similar |
| 16:55.41 | MonMotha | LWIP is handy |
| 16:55.52 | MonMotha | it's WAAAY simpler than Zigbee |
| 16:56.04 | MonMotha | and arguably no more complex than the xbee's underlying protocols |
| 16:56.09 | MonMotha | just more interoperable |
| 16:56.13 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:56.25 | g1powermac | got comparable modules? |
| 16:56.45 | MonMotha | well, you can run it on top of any 802.15.4 module that exposes the bare PDU |
| 16:56.57 | MonMotha | I think the xbee has such as mode |
| 16:58.48 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:59.36 | MonMotha | part of the problem I had when using the xbee was that, due to the topology of my network I was using it with, I was using it as the 802.15.4 coordinator |
| 16:59.43 | MonMotha | and it's a very incapable coordinator |
| 17:00.03 | MonMotha | it basically doesn't support any of the power saving features |
| 17:00.24 | MonMotha | so all your receivers have to sit there with their receivers active all the time rather than being able to power down |
| 17:01.06 | g1powermac | oh |
| 17:01.08 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 17:03.00 | g1powermac | does this imply that you could actually power down the receivers yet still somehow wake it via radio comm? |
| 17:05.48 | MonMotha | 802.15.4 supports a coordinated network where the coordinator basically tells each node to listen during a certain timeslot to see if there will be any traffic directed to it later. If not, it can power down its receiver until the next notification timeslot comes along. |
| 17:06.00 | MonMotha | the timers are on the order of 10-100ms, so it doesn't impact latency that much |
| 17:06.08 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 17:06.24 | MonMotha | but that's why it requires hardware support - you can emulate something similar in software, but the timers generally have to be somewhat longer |
| 17:07.49 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 17:14.55 | g1powermac | euh they are 2mm spacing |
| 17:16.03 | g1powermac | thats annoying |
| 17:25.33 | g1powermac | guess I could use cables to convert to standard spacing |
| 17:26.55 | g1powermac | unless there's something to convert? |
| 17:39.36 | g1powermac | ahh beautiful: http://www.parallax.com/Store/Accessories/CommunicationRF/tabid/161/ProductID/642/List/0/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName |
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