| 00:41.19 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 00:44.51 | g1powermac | prpplague, well, learnt a bit of electrical engineering stuff today :-) |
| 00:45.09 | prpplague | g1powermac: now try doing that 6 days a week, hehe |
| 00:45.49 | g1powermac | ya, not for me, I just like doing the software part of embedded engineering :-) |
| 00:46.13 | g1powermac | low level coding and a bit of high level hardware design is my thing |
| 00:47.20 | g1powermac | once the electrical equations come out, its beyond my realm ;-) |
| 00:50.29 | prpplague | g1powermac: if you are doing it right, it should all blend together |
| 00:51.10 | g1powermac | should is always the quantifier :-) |
| 00:52.32 | g1powermac | prpplague, I never had any official 'hardware' training, I'm technically just a CS guy according to the classes I took |
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| 00:53.54 | prpplague | g1powermac: half of the people i know that are "major league" developers are the same |
| 00:54.42 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 00:55.10 | g1powermac | thats pretty cool |
| 00:57.27 | SpeedEvil | If you have to take classes to learn the stuff you need, you suck. |
| 00:57.44 | SpeedEvil | Perhaps not completely true, but there is a fair slice of that. |
| 00:58.05 | SpeedEvil | Self directed learning by a motivated skilled person can be so enormously faster. |
| 00:58.15 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, most definitely |
| 00:58.44 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, I just find some of the initial learning curve is alleviated with some class work in it |
| 00:59.10 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 00:59.56 | g1powermac | like in my case, having basic knowledge of circuitry stuff would help alot when doing simple stuff like this battery charging |
| 01:00.11 | SpeedEvil | Well... |
| 01:00.18 | prpplague | g1powermac: my problem is i can't let sleeping dog lye, if i find something in a project that doesn't make sense, i tend to work on it with everything else ignored |
| 01:00.31 | g1powermac | having that already known makes life easier when doing something where you don't want to learn the whole thing for such a small project |
| 01:00.34 | SpeedEvil | I'd strongly recomend getting 'Art of Electronics' as a basis. |
| 01:00.45 | SpeedEvil | At least read the first third or so of the first 6 chapters. |
| 01:00.52 | SpeedEvil | That's most 'beginning electronics' books. |
| 01:01.16 | SpeedEvil | And then you can go back later and read the rest in more depth. |
| 01:01.19 | g1powermac | prpplague, hah, yes, I've been working on planning this little sensor node thing non stop since monday |
| 01:01.27 | SpeedEvil | It's not a complete book, and it does not treat all areas well. |
| 01:01.33 | SpeedEvil | Some areas are looking dated. |
| 01:01.56 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, yea, that might be a good idea at some point |
| 01:01.56 | SpeedEvil | But to treat all areas in the depth they should be would be a book that was taller than me. |
| 01:02.13 | SpeedEvil | And most of the dated areas are unimportant. |
| 01:02.35 | SpeedEvil | For example, it doesn't really matter that teh opamp selection tables are mostly comedically outdated. |
| 01:04.28 | g1powermac | but ya see for me, I don't have a whole lot of interest in circuitry except on when I need to do a little project, taking a course that shows me a wide range of stuff while not associated with a project would give me a greater idea of everything |
| 01:04.39 | SpeedEvil | True. |
| 01:04.48 | g1powermac | this is one area where college is very useful |
| 01:04.55 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't always result in that though. |
| 01:05.01 | g1powermac | ya, thats true |
| 01:05.02 | SpeedEvil | For example, I took maths. |
| 01:05.10 | prpplague | points to jayabharath for keeping focus |
| 01:05.44 | SpeedEvil | I basically did very well at the linear side of the course, and some other parts, and completely tanked on integration by parts and some of the discrete stuff. |
| 01:05.57 | SpeedEvil | Not coming out with any more understanding than when I went in. |
| 01:06.02 | SpeedEvil | I passed though. |
| 01:06.10 | g1powermac | yea, I can see that |
| 01:06.17 | g1powermac | funny, I was the other way |
| 01:06.25 | g1powermac | the linear algebra stuff I hated |
| 01:06.30 | g1powermac | loved everything else |
| 01:06.49 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i have problem with theory classes |
| 01:06.57 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i need applications |
| 01:07.07 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: real world applications |
| 01:07.15 | g1powermac | the theory stuff helps in creating applications |
| 01:07.20 | Mirell | prpplague: You need reality |
| 01:07.21 | g1powermac | or at least its suppose to |
| 01:07.26 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: i know that sounds lame, but otherwise i have trouble understanding the purpose |
| 01:08.02 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 01:08.42 | SpeedEvil | AoE is good that way - to a degree - it's not 'this is how a transistor works, the potential barrier of the foobah...' |
| 01:09.01 | SpeedEvil | Which doesn't actually help at all, but it explains some of its use. |
| 01:09.14 | SpeedEvil | Then goes on to basic models, and explains why those break down. |
| 01:09.44 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, what I found with the math stuff was the very little integration between the math and cs side of things besides discrete stuff |
| 01:09.54 | g1powermac | at least for the stuff I was doing |
| 01:09.57 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 01:10.05 | SpeedEvil | wants to make a MRI. |
| 01:10.14 | SpeedEvil | The maths are so pretty. |
| 01:10.21 | prpplague | g1powermac: diffeg and calc classes should have much much more practical examples |
| 01:10.35 | SpeedEvil | It's fourier come to life in living colour with magnetic fields. |
| 01:10.53 | g1powermac | prpplague, I agree with that |
| 01:11.41 | g1powermac | prpplague, though for some weird reason I got a kick out of finding the area under a curve |
| 01:12.08 | SpeedEvil | Giving examples in the wrong way can lead to some students not properly generalising though. |
| 01:13.07 | g1powermac | thats true too |
| 01:14.05 | g1powermac | prpplague, I actually really enjoyed calc II, I think I may have even taken it as an honors course |
| 01:14.33 | g1powermac | was seriously thinking of doing a dual math/cs major till he took linear algebra |
| 01:15.33 | g1powermac | the linear proofs blew my mind |
| 01:22.19 | Mirell | Hmm. |
| 01:22.25 | Mirell | just registered for the GRE |
| 01:28.49 | eephillip | Is is possible to create a spi device node using the busybox mdev command if the kernel wasn't built with CONFIG_SPI_SPIDEV enabled |
| 01:29.29 | g1powermac | Mirell, good luck |
| 01:30.15 | Mirell | I've been putting it off for a while |
| 01:30.21 | Mirell | I registered in a moment of weakness |
| 01:34.10 | g1powermac | weakness? hmm, thought it would be strength |
| 01:35.26 | Mirell | Weakness of procrastination |
| 01:35.45 | Mirell | Now I have a deadline, and am motivated |
| 01:36.20 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 01:37.07 | g1powermac | has a gre vocabulary flash card deck around here somewhere |
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| 01:37.23 | Mirell | I always dread the essay part |
| 01:37.55 | g1powermac | oh yea, forgot about that part |
| 01:38.13 | g1powermac | did they just added that relatively recently? |
| 01:38.28 | Mirell | Within the last decade |
| 01:38.50 | g1powermac | thats what I thought |
| 01:39.09 | g1powermac | when I took the ACT, it didn't have an essay |
| 01:39.20 | Mirell | Nor did the SAT |
| 01:39.26 | g1powermac | yea |
| 01:39.36 | g1powermac | liked the ACT |
| 01:39.37 | Mirell | Well, it might have had it when I took it, but it was ungraded |
| 01:39.45 | g1powermac | except for the time constraint |
| 01:40.01 | Mirell | I scored a 36 in the scientific reasoning section |
| 01:40.06 | Mirell | I AM SCIENCE |
| 01:40.10 | g1powermac | yup, me too |
| 01:40.17 | g1powermac | got a 34 total |
| 01:40.25 | Mirell | I think mine was a 32 |
| 01:40.35 | g1powermac | but thats somewhat unofficial, its a long story |
| 01:40.40 | Mirell | The Writing/English stuff dragged me down |
| 01:40.46 | Mirell | Never my strong suite |
| 01:40.51 | Mirell | Hence fear of essay. |
| 01:41.17 | g1powermac | technically has, what they call, a 'processing deficiency' |
| 01:41.35 | g1powermac | basically takes me about 50% longer to complete exams and such |
| 01:41.36 | SpeedEvil | jams a 387 into g1powermacs skull. |
| 01:41.46 | Mirell | ...a 387? |
| 01:42.17 | g1powermac | applied to get extra time on the ACT but missed their cutoff by a few points |
| 01:42.20 | Mirell | g1powermac: At least it's just being slower, than dumber. |
| 01:42.58 | g1powermac | the college I was applying to helped me out by basically proctoring the test for me |
| 01:43.23 | Mirell | Nice of them |
| 01:43.27 | g1powermac | so it was an official ACT, but not acceptable to any other college |
| 01:43.39 | g1powermac | they even officially graded |
| 01:44.02 | g1powermac | yea, it was, till it got to their scholarship dept |
| 01:44.24 | g1powermac | the guy who proctored the test was also the head of admissions |
| 01:44.46 | g1powermac | he knew what I was capable of and figured I'd get a few scholarship |
| 01:45.13 | g1powermac | err, *full scholarship |
| 01:45.33 | g1powermac | but they refused because it wasn't an 'official' test |
| 01:45.58 | g1powermac | they guy actually quit in protest of the whole situation |
| 01:46.11 | g1powermac | *the, err can't type tonight |
| 01:55.13 | g1powermac | but meh, still went there on a half scholarship anyway |
| 01:55.20 | g1powermac | was a great little college |
| 02:07.50 | Mirell | Wootage |
| 02:07.57 | Mirell | I haven't even researched which grad schools yet |
| 02:09.01 | g1powermac | I was looking at CMU |
| 02:09.14 | g1powermac | but that was a dream :-) |
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| 02:15.36 | Mirell | Right, first, focus on taking test, then researching grad schools |
| 02:16.28 | g1powermac | yup, that helps |
| 02:18.06 | g1powermac | well, have fun with the studying, time for sleep here |
| 02:18.11 | g1powermac | g'night all |
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| 02:57.00 | calculus | all this talk about calculus and no one ever spelled it out |
| 03:00.00 | Mirell | Heh |
| 03:00.08 | Mirell | It's an EVIL word |
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| 14:59.02 | g1powermac | hey GPSFan |
| 15:06.52 | GPSFan | g1powermac, howdy |
| 15:09.52 | g1powermac | is making up an order of goodies |
| 15:10.48 | Mirell | is preparing for a phone interview in an hour |
| 15:24.52 | prpplague | Mirell: just don't go to to bathroom while on the phone |
| 15:26.12 | mnemoc | doh |
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| 15:37.16 | Mirell | I've done that |
| 15:37.23 | Mirell | Just don't flush while on the phone |
| 15:37.58 | mnemoc | :D |
| 15:39.19 | Crofton|work | I hope the phone was muted while I was in the toilet ... |
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| 15:40.10 | g1powermac | heh |
| 15:40.27 | Mirell | IN the toilet? |
| 15:40.29 | Mirell | Odd. |
| 15:41.37 | mnemoc | like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7_p1lM2fY |
| 15:41.55 | Mirell | Nope! |
| 15:42.20 | mnemoc | damn, japanese voice :-/ |
| 15:42.23 | dalias | mirell, in some locales where english is used, "toilet" means "bathroom"/"water closet" rather than the actual unit you pee into |
| 15:42.36 | dalias | india comes to mind :) |
| 15:42.44 | mnemoc | the "in the toilet" scene in Trainspotting is a classic |
| 15:42.49 | Mirell | dalias: Then call it the loo, the WC... |
| 15:43.06 | dalias | tell the 1.5+ billion ppl in india :-) |
| 15:43.14 | Mirell | *clears throat* |
| 15:43.30 | Mirell | HEY INDIA, I LOVE NAAN, BUT CALL IT THE BATHROOM, NOT TOILET, KTHXBYE |
| 15:43.35 | Mirell | There. |
| 15:43.38 | dalias | lol |
| 15:44.00 | mnemoc | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJrWlHRT-18 |
| 15:44.08 | dalias | if you've ever seen most indian toilets you would not want to call it a BATHroom or even think about bathing anywhere near it :) :) |
| 15:46.39 | g1powermac | woah, expensive caps, $2.23 a piece! |
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| 15:58.49 | Mirell | Yo dawg, I heard you liked Serifs, so I kerned some fonts for yah |
| 16:04.07 | g1powermac | need some cheaper options for these low esr tantalum caps |
| 16:04.43 | g1powermac | anyone have any suggestions on if there's any options to replace these with cheaper parts? |
| 16:04.56 | g1powermac | they're needed for the max756 step up regulator |
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| 16:12.22 | landley | morning. |
| 16:12.34 | landley | dalias: you might be amused that I've BSD licensed toybox, and started work on it again. |
| 16:13.07 | landley | Although so far the work is mostly refamiliarizing myself with the buckets of context necessary to micro-simplify all this weird stuff. :) |
| 16:13.33 | landley | Micro-simplifying is sort of the mirror image of micro-optimizing. |
| 16:13.33 | dalias | cool |
| 16:14.01 | dalias | btw a really lame idea i don't know if you'd love or hate... |
| 16:14.03 | landley | It's thinking through the problem very very thoroughly so you can do the smallest, most elegant solution available by figuring out what you DON'T need to do, and what the minimum requirements actually _are_... |
| 16:14.22 | dalias | implementing lots of tools as shell scripts embedded in the binary as strings |
| 16:14.26 | dalias | which use the integrated shell to run |
| 16:14.35 | landley | dalias: implementing lots of tools as shell scripts, great. |
| 16:14.41 | landley | Embedding them in the binary as strings: hell no. |
| 16:14.44 | dalias | :) |
| 16:14.45 | landley | squashfs exists. use it. |
| 16:15.30 | landley | If you're doing a shell implementation of something, which is as close to english as programming GETS, why the hell would you discard the discoverability and transparency of that by embedding it in a binary? |
| 16:15.39 | kergoth | heh, if you want to implement tools with an interpreter, i'd just use lua and say fuck shell, but.. |
| 16:15.39 | landley | MISSING THE POINT. |
| 16:15.42 | kergoth | :) |
| 16:15.56 | landley | kergoth: I've looked at lua a half dozen times. No standard posix library. |
| 16:15.56 | dalias | yes kergoth is getting closer to what i was thinking |
| 16:16.08 | landley | Ther'es a nonstandard posix library, but I kept finding holes in it and it's still nonstandard. |
| 16:16.16 | kergoth_ | that is unfortunate. there is luaposix or something right, but… yeah |
| 16:16.24 | kergoth_ | someone should do something about that :) |
| 16:16.28 | dalias | actually the shell can't do most things the standard utilities need to do without being either really inefficient or mildly incorrect in behavior |
| 16:16.31 | landley | Natanael Copa did it I think. |
| 16:16.42 | mnemoc | luaposix was revived short ago |
| 16:17.04 | dalias | the whole point of lua is that it doesn't inherently have access to the outside world so it's usable securely |
| 16:17.23 | landley | dalias: I implemented rsync (including md4sum) in perl once. That was inefficient. |
| 16:17.30 | landley | sorry, PYTHON. |
| 16:17.30 | dalias | you allow it just what you want it to have access to rather than having to restrict the thngs you don't |
| 16:17.32 | landley | Not perl. |
| 16:17.34 | dalias | landley, :) |
| 16:17.36 | landley | *shudder* |
| 16:17.49 | landley | Need way more caffeine if I'm blaspheming like that. |
| 16:17.53 | kergoth_ | someone started trying to do something like busy box but written in golang instead of c, which I thought was rather amusing. somehow I doubt it leverages the concurrency features though, so I can't imagine it'd buy you all that terribly much |
| 16:18.19 | landley | (Religions get all the good words. Blasphemy, sacrilege, heretic...) |
| 16:18.23 | dalias | i should make multithreaded ls :-p |
| 16:18.28 | landley | Governments get a few. Filibuster, pursuant... |
| 16:18.55 | landley | kergoth_: c and shell are the basic languages of unix. |
| 16:18.59 | kergoth_ | https://github.com/asdf-systems/gobox - doubt its really of any use, but i thought it was interesting |
| 16:19.12 | landley | The kernel is written in C. The C compiler and linker are written in C. Make is written in C. |
| 16:19.16 | landley | And the shell runs ./configure. |
| 16:19.26 | landley | So to rebuild the system under itself, you need C and shell. |
| 16:19.27 | dalias | landley, you forgot python. ubuntu declares it a new language of unix :) |
| 16:19.31 | landley | (And "a shell prompt" pretty much is the system.) |
| 16:19.34 | kergoth_ | rolls eyes |
| 16:19.37 | landley | dalias: ubuntu is the new red hat. |
| 16:19.40 | landley | Pointy Hair Linux. |
| 16:19.42 | kergoth_ | (at ubuntu, not c/shell) |
| 16:20.00 | landley | When Mark Shuttleworth starts going "copyright assignment, what a good idea", the fat lady is singing. |
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| 16:21.51 | Mirell | It's just gone downhill since the Altair. |
| 16:21.57 | kergoth_ | chuckles |
| 16:24.14 | landley | Mirell: yeah, Linux on the altair was a beautiful thing. |
| 16:27.06 | g1powermac | can't believe its going to cost $10 for three caps, one .1uf, one 100uf, and one 150uf |
| 16:29.00 | landley | g1powermac: all the cool kids these days wiring caps backwards... |
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| 16:32.45 | Mirell | I just got a cap on my teeth. |
| 16:32.48 | Mirell | Cost $150 |
| 16:32.54 | Mirell | So consider yourself lucky there |
| 16:33.15 | dalias | :) |
| 16:34.03 | g1powermac | Mirell, that's like incredibly cheap |
| 16:34.13 | dalias | compared to usa it's cheap |
| 16:34.19 | g1powermac | those suckers round here go for $1000 a piece |
| 16:34.27 | dalias | compared to india... expensive :) |
| 16:34.43 | g1powermac | wonders if Mirell went with the wood tooth option ;-) |
| 16:35.26 | dalias | round trip airfare + dental service at a good clinic in india is cheaper than dental service in usa :( |
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| 16:46.18 | g1powermac | wonder if I could get away with just standard tantalums |
| 16:46.18 | Mirell | I feel bad I never have questions for the recruiter |
| 16:46.31 | g1powermac | they're only $1 a piece |
| 16:47.16 | mnemoc | health related prices in usa are beyond absurdity.... to force you to pay an expensive insurance |
| 16:49.58 | *** join/#edev prpplague (~danders@nat/ti/x-rfxkghhhnjzunimt) |
| 17:05.17 | grummund | Hi all, can anyone point me to an embedded ARM board with 3.5" display and, ideally, capability for Linux out of the box? |
| 17:06.02 | grummund | i am googling as well, but perhaps someone knows a good one |
| 17:06.38 | g1powermac | grummund, http://www.andahammer.com/mini35-sdk/ |
| 17:06.53 | g1powermac | I've never used it, but it looks cool |
| 17:08.30 | SpeedEvil | several on ebay too |
| 17:11.45 | grummund | thanks |
| 17:12.54 | grummund | i'm sure there are... but ebay says: 0 results for ARM 3.5" display |
| 17:15.58 | Spida | grummund: search for "friendly arm" |
| 17:16.27 | Spida | http://www.ebay.de/itm/190509696617 |
| 17:17.37 | grummund | do you know if that would run Debian out of the box? |
| 17:18.27 | Spida | http://www.friendlyarm.net/forum/topic/896 |
| 17:21.15 | SpeedEvil | also mini2440 |
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| 18:32.23 | grummund | http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260895920799 |
| 18:33.17 | mnemoc | 2.6.13??? |
| 18:36.06 | mnemoc | grummund: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/esky-shn?_rdc=1 is the classic seller of those |
| 18:38.50 | grummund | 64MB ram seems a tad on the tight side |
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| 19:04.58 | landley | I remember when 64mb ram was just epically huge. |
| 19:05.09 | landley | Since then, gcc has really, really, really started to suck. |
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| 19:20.51 | g1powermac | landley, ya, those were the days, ehh? |
| 19:21.32 | landley | g1powermac: http://landley.net/wheniwasaboy.mp3 |
| 19:21.54 | g1powermac | I remember 16mb of ram was a big deal (and big cost) for the graphics production macs my mom purchased |
| 19:22.26 | g1powermac | I think she spent over $10k for all the stuff |
| 19:24.42 | g1powermac | computer, laser printer, inkjet printer, scanner, zip drive, syquest drive (anyone remember them suckers?), modem, and some royalty free images |
| 19:29.43 | g1powermac | the funny thing is I got a computer from a couple years after that machine that can still boot faster than any modern machine today |
| 19:31.03 | g1powermac | its where my nickname originated from, an old powermac 6100/66 with a 333mhz G3 card in it |
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| 19:38.59 | grummund | lol. the young guns don't know how good they had it |
| 19:40.00 | grummund | my first *real* pc had 4 x 256K sticks and cost me a month's salary |
| 19:44.55 | g1powermac | heh, yea, thats a bit before my time :-) |
| 19:48.36 | g1powermac | grummund, though I may have been a computer of that era when I was 7 or so, the thing died the next day so I took it apart and stared at all the electronics |
| 19:48.47 | g1powermac | have been *given |
| 19:49.22 | g1powermac | I think it what made me excited about electronic stuff today |
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| 19:56.07 | landley | 38911 basic bytes free |
| 19:57.14 | roxfan | "basic" bytes? |
| 19:57.29 | roxfan | do you have advanced bytes too? |
| 19:59.14 | MonMotha | it's not stupid...it's advanced |
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| 20:46.32 | nascentmind | Hi. I am trying to understand axi and they talk about beats in a burst. What does a beat mean here? |
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| 21:04.48 | landley | Traiging the SUSv4 utilities list. |
| 21:04.55 | landley | Some of these commands are just... weird. |
| 21:05.04 | landley | The asa command is apparently installed in ubuntu. It's for fortran. |
| 21:05.36 | *** join/#edev avinashhm (~avinash-h@192.94.92.11) |
| 21:05.45 | landley | They don't distinguish shell built-ins (things like cd and export that _can't_ run as a child process) from normal commands. |
| 21:06.11 | landley | Sometimes it's subtle, "hash" has to be a built-in. I could see twiddling cached file data, but your shell has to know to use it... |
| 21:15.48 | landley | nascentmind: dunno, what's axi? |
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| 21:47.31 | landley | Busybox has a sendmail implementation now? |
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| 21:48.22 | CosmicPenguin | What could possibly go wrong? |
| 21:56.23 | landley | Na naaaah, na-na na-na-na na-na, na naaaah-na, na-na naah. |
| 21:57.10 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:57.13 | landley | Busybox! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgrnIBlxZCk |
| 21:57.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: what kind of beer is on the schedule for this evening? |
| 21:57.41 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: got my new CC's in the mail this morning |
| 21:58.00 | CosmicPenguin | Hmm.. beer eh? |
| 21:58.16 | CosmicPenguin | I hav some Mycernary in the fridge, and some Milk Stout Nitro that isn't cold but it could be |
| 21:58.42 | CosmicPenguin | If I had a DD I could go over to Oskar Blues, they have Dogfish Head 120 minute on tap |
| 21:59.00 | CosmicPenguin | I'm saving my ten-fiddy jones for Thanksgiving weekend |
| 22:00.33 | CosmicPenguin | Maybe see if the liquor store has some Firestone Walker. Ever tried them? |
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| 22:36.33 | landley | Hmmm... fiddly option parsing corner cases... |
| 22:37.16 | landley | prpplague: did you ever look at my option parsing logic in toybox? |
| 22:37.36 | prpplague | landley: sorry no |
| 22:37.52 | landley | Pity. I was rather proud of that part. |
| 22:37.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: nope never tried those |
| 22:38.02 | landley | (One of the big things I missed trying to work on busybox again after toybox...) |
| 22:38.03 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 22:39.40 | landley | I probably need to add a file mode parsing blob to it, for chmod and mkdir -m and mkfifo -m and so on. Not hugely tricky. |
| 22:40.04 | landley | But the FUNKY bit is the options to cut and renice and such. |
| 22:40.12 | landley | http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/cut.html |
| 22:40.29 | landley | http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/renice.html |
| 22:40.47 | landley | Those have options that don't have "an associated argument", but say "parse futher arguments in this mode until further notice". |
| 22:41.35 | g1powermac | heya prpplague |
| 22:41.45 | prpplague | g1powermac: hey |
| 22:42.15 | landley | so renice -n 20 -u landley |
| 22:42.22 | g1powermac | got a quick question for ya, in your opinion, which smartphone is the best in terms of hackability? |
| 22:42.24 | landley | I hadn't known that was an option, but susv4 says it is. |
| 22:42.34 | landley | renice -n 20 -u landley mirell prpplague |
| 22:42.37 | landley | Is apparently also an option... |
| 22:42.53 | landley | as is renice -n 20 -p 123 456 789 -g 42 |
| 22:42.56 | landley | Sigh. |
| 22:43.25 | landley | Wanna confirm that the -p ones are numeric, while not caring that the -u ones aren't, in the actual shared option parsing logic before the app is called. |
| 22:43.45 | landley | I have "collect list" infrastructure, but previously it was "-p one -p two -p three" sort of thing... |
| 22:43.52 | landley | And didn't have associated type information. Sigh... |
| 22:44.02 | prpplague | landley: nice |
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| 22:45.42 | landley | cut is actually slightly funkier, since -b -c and -f have associated "123-456" ranges, which can be "123-" or "-456". So they're formatted, but not an existing format. |
| 22:46.15 | landley | Pretty sure I can't cleanly extend the existing option parsing infrastructure to deal with that. (Well, _shouldn't_. It's too bespoke one-off weird.) |
| 22:46.18 | MonMotha | landley: don't you love the old non-standard option parsing on those crufty commands? |
| 22:46.48 | landley | MonMotha: man pr |
| 22:46.50 | landley | go on, I dare you. |
| 22:47.03 | landley | Still in POSIX-2008, even though these days you print postscript, not text. |
| 22:47.22 | landley | compress is still in SUSv4. So are ed and ex. |
| 22:47.33 | landley | And, of course, asa, which isn't hard to implement, I just can't figure out what it's FOR... |
| 22:47.56 | landley | (And of course qalter, qdel, qhold, qmove, qmsg, qrerun, qrls, qselect, qsig, qstat, and qsub.) |
| 22:48.22 | MonMotha | I think compress is just symlinked to gzip on most modern Linux systems |
| 22:48.29 | MonMotha | and egh, pr is ugly |
| 22:48.31 | landley | And the sccs suite, that's still in SUSv4. In 2008, they had yet to kill off a source constrol system that PREDATES CVS. |
| 22:48.41 | MonMotha | who came up with "-e[CHAR[WIDTH]]" |
| 22:48.49 | landley | MonMotha: nope. Different compression formats. |
| 22:48.57 | landley | I believe busybox implements it. |
| 22:49.10 | MonMotha | landley: well, wasn't the old "compress" format specific to each particular flavor of UNIX, anyway? |
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| 22:50.23 | landley | MonMotha: there's a posix one. |
| 22:50.33 | MonMotha | ah |
| 22:50.38 | landley | Posix also defines "pax" but not "tar". |
| 22:52.22 | MonMotha | ah yes, pax... |
| 22:52.29 | MonMotha | that's an IEEE-ism, isn't it? |
| 22:52.37 | MonMotha | like well defined but almost completely unimplemented and unused? |
| 22:52.44 | landley | I am triaging http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/idx/utilities.html into "todo", "batch", "internationalization", "ipc", "obsolete", "aliases", "build", "shell", "fortran", and "sccs". |
| 22:52.57 | landley | And within todo I have "low hanging fruit", "medium hanging fruit", and "fiddly". |
| 22:53.27 | landley | I also have some wtf entries. (chgrp has -HLP but chmod doesn't?) |
| 22:53.55 | landley | I suspect not a lot of people actually READ these specs all that closely. |
| 22:54.37 | MonMotha | they're written by large standards bodies |
| 22:54.41 | landley | Plus of course POSIX never mentioning the _existence_ of trivial unimportant things like "mount" or "init"... |
| 22:54.41 | MonMotha | and you know the saying about standards bodies |
| 22:54.53 | landley | They should document, not legislate? |
| 22:55.05 | landley | That's what _I_ always say about them, anyway... |
| 22:55.08 | MonMotha | well, I guess it may be applied to committees in general |
| 22:55.19 | MonMotha | To get things done, a committee should consist of no more than 3 people, two of them absent. |
| 22:55.23 | landley | Democracy is four wolves and a lamb, voting on what to have for lunch? |
| 22:55.35 | CosmicPenguin | If they didn't legislate, we would never get anything done |
| 22:55.50 | CosmicPenguin | Everything would be permanently in beta |
| 22:56.01 | CosmicPenguin | Like we obey standards anyway |
| 22:56.25 | landley | Sigh. susv4 spleep is trivial to implement. |
| 22:56.54 | landley | Real modern sleep takes a floating point number of seconds, not just an integer. |
| 22:57.01 | MonMotha | CosmicPenguin: I obey standards all the time. Sometimes I even write my own. |
| 22:57.02 | landley | with modern systems, you often want to sleep for a quarter of a second... |
| 22:57.18 | MonMotha | I mean, there are so many standards to choose from that it's easy to obey one. And if you create your own, nobody will notice. |
| 22:57.19 | landley | CosmicPenguin: document the most common existing uses. The sane subset. |
| 22:57.34 | landley | Any time a standards body goes "in future, implementations should look like this instead of what they're doing now", run screaming. |
| 22:57.53 | landley | This is one of the larger differences between C and C++, by the way... |
| 22:58.01 | landley | By no means the only one, of course... |
| 23:27.44 | landley | Oh you bastards. |
| 23:27.48 | landley | tail -c |
| 23:27.55 | landley | Takes a number with an optional sign. |
| 23:28.09 | landley | If the sign is +, the number is relative to the beginning of the file. |
| 23:28.15 | landley | If the sign is -, relative to the end of the file. |
| 23:28.22 | landley | If no sign is specified: relative to the end of the file. |
| 23:28.51 | landley | IT DEFAULTS TO NEGATIVE UNLESS YOU SAY +, BUT SAYING - KEEPS IT NEGATIVE... |
| 23:28.54 | landley | Grrr... |
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| 23:34.38 | MonMotha | on the upside, that pretty much makes tail -c +X the same as head -c X, right? |
| 23:35.13 | landley | What the heck is a topological sort? (man tsort) |
| 23:46.37 | Mirell | Laser Barcode Scanner is AMAZING |
| 23:46.54 | Mirell | 722674210164 |
| 23:46.59 | Mirell | Heh |
| 23:48.34 | florian | I wrote a driver for a Laser barcode scanner a few weeks ago :) |
| 23:49.16 | Mirell | The fact that it was $30 just amazes me |
| 23:49.27 | Mirell | I remember a decade ago, they were around $600-800 |
| 23:49.58 | Mirell | I'm using it to scan all my books to catalog them |