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| 01:17.08 | MonMotha | oh great, looks like my chip isn't supported by OpenOCD except in git |
| 01:18.04 | prpplague | MonMotha: hehe |
| 01:18.13 | MonMotha | prpplague: I didn't pick the chip |
| 01:18.22 | prpplague | MonMotha: indeed |
| 01:18.25 | MonMotha | prpplague: on the upside, I won't have to patch it for Flyswatter2 support |
| 01:18.28 | prpplague | MonMotha: life on the bleeding edge |
| 01:19.13 | MonMotha | prpplague: well, the chip is about a year old, but OpenOCD just recently got support. In fact, there was a patch applied 8 days ago. |
| 01:19.20 | MonMotha | erm, patch committed |
| 01:19.35 | MonMotha | so I guess I get to dust off my package building skills |
| 01:19.47 | MonMotha | or I guess I could just build it locally and treat it as part of my project specific toolchain |
| 01:24.33 | prpplague | hmmm |
| 01:24.40 | prpplague | where to find a vhs tape player |
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| 01:36.43 | MonMotha | prpplague: I have one |
| 01:36.49 | MonMotha | prpplague: also, there's a Flyswatter 3? |
| 01:40.19 | prpplague | MonMotha: F3 is a F2 just with a dedicated mips configuration, *cough* it was done for a specific customer |
| 01:40.32 | MonMotha | prpplague: ah |
| 01:40.46 | MonMotha | so basically just a change to the connector pinout |
| 01:40.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: i was looking at buying a copy of "light years" on vhs and ripping to mpeg |
| 01:40.56 | prpplague | yea |
| 01:41.52 | MonMotha | prpplague: well, I know there are services in most areas that do VHS to XYZ transfers. They may just offer to hand you a DVD with an h.264 or similar on it. Worst case, they'll all do real DVDs and sometimes Blu-Ray. They may not be willing to do it on a copyrighted flick, though. |
| 01:41.57 | MonMotha | (even though it's probably legal) |
| 01:42.20 | MonMotha | failing that, I think I have one of those PVR-150 MPEG2 encoder boards somewhere |
| 01:42.30 | MonMotha | it had a surprisingly high quality composite video input |
| 01:42.34 | prpplague | yea i did a few transfers years ago |
| 01:42.49 | MonMotha | you'll probably want a good VCR (or an external timebase corrector) though |
| 01:43.01 | prpplague | this is just one of those movies i really wish was released on dvd |
| 01:43.23 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 01:43.45 | MonMotha | prpplague: do you happen to know off the top of your head if OpenOCD is amenable to being installed in odd places and not having any absolute paths in its configs? |
| 01:43.47 | prpplague | wonders if MonMotha is on g+ yet? |
| 01:44.02 | prpplague | MonMotha: indeed there is a config flag for the search dir |
| 01:44.10 | MonMotha | prpplague: I don't even have a google account, so no g+ :) |
| 01:44.24 | prpplague | MonMotha: don't have to have a google account for g+ |
| 01:44.26 | MonMotha | I do have a FB, but I really only use it with a particular group of people |
| 01:44.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: G+ is COMPLETELY different than FB |
| 01:45.48 | MonMotha | prpplague: what I'm getting at with OpenOCD is if I can build it and "install" it somewhere that will end up being copied/moved around (it's actually part of the binary toolchain blob tree that's in my project git repo and could be checked out by others) without breaking |
| 01:46.27 | MonMotha | I mean, I can just try it, but if you happen to know it won't work, it would save me some effort |
| 01:46.29 | prpplague | MonMotha: ahh yes, there are no hardcoded absolute paths |
| 01:46.35 | MonMotha | cool |
| 01:46.50 | prpplague | MonMotha: just need to pass the path to the config scripts on the command line |
| 01:46.50 | MonMotha | some programs are...bad...about that |
| 01:46.55 | prpplague | MonMotha: yes indee |
| 01:47.12 | MonMotha | cool. I think the config scripts will end up living in the source tree (maybe until a tools or utils type dir) |
| 01:47.13 | prpplague | MonMotha: be happy to send you an invite to g+ |
| 01:47.39 | MonMotha | prpplague: I have an old one from someone else. I just don't really do social networking in general, and I already suspect google knows too much :) |
| 01:47.45 | MonMotha | no offense to you |
| 01:48.21 | prpplague | MonMotha: no worries, but g+ is something totally different |
| 01:48.24 | prpplague | :) |
| 01:49.05 | MonMotha | prpplague: yeah, I know of it somewhat. I just don't do social networking in general. I don't have Linkedin account, either, for example |
| 01:50.11 | MonMotha | people lambast me for being surprisingly old-school in my technology habits despite my age and general technical aptitude sometimes |
| 01:50.16 | MonMotha | I'm just weird in that way, I guess :) |
| 01:50.34 | MonMotha | I did finally get a smartphone, though mostly just to run K9Mail |
| 01:51.34 | prpplague | MonMotha: hehe, no worries, weird in my middle name, i understand all too well |
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| 15:51.18 | landley | Morning. |
| 15:54.55 | florian | hi landley |
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| 18:57.49 | landley | plays with hg-git |
| 18:58.26 | landley | (And u-boot talking to a microcontroller through a serial port. And toybox documentation. And a wiki page about an upcoming project I'm supposedly handling the kernel port for. And...) |
| 18:58.41 | landley | For a definition of "kernel port" that may not involve any actual code changes. (fingers crossed) |
| 18:58.57 | landley | (In the "for luck" rather than "lying about it" sense. I hope.) |
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| 19:17.40 | slashbeast | landley: what you think about running 64bit kernel with 32bit userland? |
| 19:18.34 | landley | slashbeast: it's doable? |
| 19:19.09 | slashbeast | I wonder if there are any real cons. |
| 19:19.13 | landley | Gotta be careful about what uname -m returns when building stuff. Other than that, it generally works. |
| 19:19.33 | landley | The con is that none of your programs can use more than 4 gigs of memory. |
| 19:19.33 | slashbeast | with gentoo I would need somehow build 64bit kernel modules |
| 19:19.41 | landley | The system as a whole can, but individual programs can't. |
| 19:19.57 | landley | And you need kernel modules that match your kernel, yes. |
| 19:20.04 | slashbeast | the footprint of 32bit binaries is noticable smaller |
| 19:20.08 | landley | I tend to build the kernel outside of the distro when I'm fiddling with that. |
| 19:20.12 | landley | Noticeably smaller in memory, too. |
| 19:20.13 | slashbeast | I am worried about 3rd party modules |
| 19:20.20 | landley | 64 bit pointer sizes add up. |
| 19:20.36 | landley | Modules only care about kernel, usually. |
| 19:20.45 | landley | I note that you can trivially set up a 32 bit chroot within a 64 bit system. |
| 19:20.47 | landley | I do it all the time. |
| 19:21.03 | slashbeast | I would need a 64bit chroot to build specified packages and deploy thier modules |
| 19:21.05 | landley | So you can test 32 bit userland on 64 bit host for a while before deciding you really like it. |
| 19:21.22 | slashbeast | I know, you can also chroot to 64bit if your kernel support 64bit |
| 19:21.24 | landley | man linux64 |
| 19:21.27 | slashbeast | thats how systemrescuecd do |
| 19:21.37 | slashbeast | I know setarch, linux32/64 |
| 19:21.43 | landley | 'k |
| 19:22.32 | slashbeast | small 64bit chroot to build kernel and build some kernel modules if needed would be the best. |
| 19:24.50 | slashbeast | landley: did you noticed an real preformance boost in 64bit over 32bit? |
| 19:27.42 | landley | slashbeast: depends what I was doing. |
| 19:28.04 | landley | Keep in mind "running DOS code under 32 bit OS because it's faster and lower memory" is something you tend to give up on after a while. |
| 19:28.45 | landley | With 2 gigs of ram, 32 bit is faster. With 8 gigs, 64 bit is faster. |
| 19:28.50 | slashbeast | if you run a lot of, for example, django apps, you better run it with 32bit python |
| 19:28.58 | landley | I didn't bench 32 vs 64 side by side, although I suppose I could. |
| 19:29.15 | landley | I note that the cross compilers I ship are built with an i686 host, but that's for portability not speed. |
| 19:29.16 | slashbeast | side question, why you use gcc 4.2.1 in Aboriginal? |
| 19:29.25 | landley | Last GPLv2 release. |
| 19:29.32 | slashbeast | and you dont like the gpl3? |
| 19:29.37 | landley | Nope. |
| 19:30.30 | slashbeast | do you plan upgrade to 4.4 or 4.6? |
| 19:31.05 | landley | Maybe eventually. |
| 19:31.15 | landley | But if I do, it means I stop shipping prebuilt binaries. |
| 19:31.54 | slashbeast | the dropbear and friends? Why? |
| 19:33.08 | landley | No, I'd stop shipping brebuilt toolchain binaries. |
| 19:33.14 | landley | Which makes shipping prebuilt system images pointless. |
| 19:33.55 | slashbeast | you mean the root-filesytem images etc? That would be really not good |
| 19:34.03 | landley | I'm aware of that, yes. |
| 19:34.11 | landley | Which is why I'm shipping with a license that lets me ship binaries. |
| 19:34.27 | slashbeast | I failed to see where gpl3 does not allow you to do so |
| 19:35.26 | ohsix | it may not forbid it but it can make it a whole lot more work |
| 19:37.04 | slashbeast | I could use some more info, any url? |
| 19:39.34 | MonMotha | so now I get to really learn about OpenOCD :) |
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| 21:08.59 | landley | Dear compiler optimizing out my delay loop: stop it. |
| 21:09.36 | landley | Honestly, a for loop with _just_ an increment should be universally recognized as "yes I mean to do that". Grrr... |
| 21:11.44 | MonMotha | landley: for(volatile int i = 0; i < foo; i++); |
| 21:15.38 | landley | The ti uboot code has a delay() function with an assembly instruction in it, to bypass the compiler doing this. |
| 21:17.36 | MonMotha | well, that also will guarantee you cycle accurate timing, since the compiler may have several ways it decides to create a for loop to increment something |
| 21:17.47 | MonMotha | but declaring the iterator as volatile should at least prevent it from being optimized out |
| 21:29.26 | MonMotha | "wrote 262144 bytes from file ../../k60-256k.bin in 525.347046s (0.487 KiB/s)" so painfully slow |
| 21:48.26 | landley | MonMotha: wrote to flash? Via jtag? |
| 21:48.51 | landley | One of the openocd libraries is apparently really crappy... |
| 21:49.01 | MonMotha | landley: yes, that's a write to flash via JTAG |
| 21:49.07 | MonMotha | and it probably is. Essentially nobody uses this CPU |
| 21:49.17 | MonMotha | I may end up giving up and just telling to client to buy IAR if they want to use this CPU |
| 21:49.26 | landley | It's not which CPU, it's one of the serial interface libraries or some such. |
| 21:49.40 | MonMotha | well, reads go quite a bit faster (~50-100kB/sec) |
| 21:49.59 | landley | I keep meaning to get more into jtag development so I can fix it, but I'd basically need prpplague to visit austin for a few days to actually make that work. :) |
| 21:50.09 | landley | MonMotha: then the flash code is stupidly written. |
| 21:50.15 | MonMotha | landley: that's entirely possible |
| 21:50.18 | MonMotha | like I said, nobody uses this CPU |
| 21:50.22 | landley | The write should be to _memory_, and then it should flash from memory. |
| 21:50.38 | MonMotha | and with the quality of the code put out by the manufacturer, I can't blame them |
| 21:50.42 | landley | What it sounds like it's doing is flash read, modify one byte, flash write. |
| 21:50.56 | MonMotha | my experiences here have simply re-affirmed that I don't want to use Freescale MCUs on any prject |
| 21:51.06 | landley | Heh. |
| 21:53.59 | MonMotha | there's essentially no F/OSS community around them, and Freescale's code is TERRIBLE |
| 21:54.15 | landley | Those two statements sound related. |
| 21:54.25 | landley | What processor does the board use? |
| 21:55.13 | landley | I note that I'm hammering as hard as I can on making it easy for hobbyists to use QEMU to test non-x86 code. |
| 21:55.35 | landley | It's easy to get a hobbyist community to work on something with zero non-software prequisites and a 15 minute startup time. |
| 21:55.46 | MonMotha | landley: Freescale Kinetis line |
| 21:55.59 | landley | (Not per instance, I mean "download, extract, play", actually banging on code within 15 minutes.) |
| 21:56.01 | MonMotha | I'm currently just working on a TWR-K60N512 |
| 21:56.08 | landley | Kinetis is a processor? |
| 21:56.17 | MonMotha | it's a Cortex-M4 |
| 21:56.34 | MonMotha | Kinetis is Freescale's trade name for their CM4 SoCs |
| 21:56.47 | landley | Yeay, just found it in Google. |
| 21:58.00 | landley | Is m4 the one that _only_ does thumb2? |
| 21:58.04 | MonMotha | yeah |
| 21:58.06 | landley | No conventional arm instructions? |
| 21:58.08 | MonMotha | I think all the M line is like that |
| 21:58.12 | landley | ok |
| 21:58.58 | MonMotha | at the moment, I can't even the the CPU to just spin in a loop |
| 21:59.26 | MonMotha | releasing it from reset immediately gives me JTAG-DP STICKY ERROR \n MEM_AP_CSW 0x23000002, MEM_AP_TAR 0xe000edf0 \n Polling target failed, GDB will be halted. Polling again in NNNNms |
| 21:59.52 | MonMotha | I can reset to halt, and do stuff with it, but letting it run apparently sends it off to lala land |
| 22:00.02 | MonMotha | unfortunately, none of Freescale's code works...at all |
| 22:00.11 | MonMotha | well ,it MIGHT with their terrible Codewarrier suite |
| 22:00.32 | MonMotha | but near as I can tell it does things that just plain aren't legal. Like it has assembly that isn't valid Thumb2 |
| 22:00.52 | MonMotha | so unless their assembler interprets them as macroinstructions (which is possible)... |
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| 22:03.21 | landley | It's gotta mmu? |
| 22:03.32 | landley | Are data/instruction caches disabled? |
| 22:03.35 | MonMotha | landley: it has an MPU, but I'm literally spinning in a loop right at the reset vector |
| 22:04.10 | landley | You're not spinning in a loop. |
| 22:04.13 | landley | Back up a couple steps. |
| 22:04.17 | landley | You have some code you want the cpu to run. |
| 22:04.28 | landley | You write it into... DRAM? Dram controller isn't initialized yet. |
| 22:04.37 | landley | Flash? Check the flash and make sure you can read the value back. |
| 22:04.49 | landley | Processor sram? |
| 22:04.51 | MonMotha | it should be running out of flash |
| 22:04.57 | landley | Apparently it's not. |
| 22:05.12 | landley | Can you read stuff via the memory bus to get the right values from the flash? |
| 22:05.18 | landley | Do a jtag transaction to fake a memory bus read. |
| 22:05.37 | landley | And then try to watch the bus to see the _processor_ do the same thing, and get the right result. |
| 22:05.45 | landley | (By the power of bus analyzers!) |
| 22:05.59 | MonMotha | it's an SoC, so there's no bus to physically probe |
| 22:06.09 | landley | The flash is in the SOC? |
| 22:06.12 | MonMotha | yes |
| 22:06.24 | landley | When you externally read back the flash you get the right value? |
| 22:06.27 | MonMotha | I think what's happening is that, for some reason when I write the flash to the device, the first two words get magically turned into 0xFFFFFFFF |
| 22:06.40 | landley | Start writing earlier? |
| 22:06.42 | MonMotha | and the first two words are very important: they're the initial SP and initial PC |
| 22:07.13 | MonMotha | it reads back fine other than those two words |
| 22:08.41 | landley | Can you start writing earlier, or is this part of some transaction the thing expects? |
| 22:08.44 | MonMotha | what's weird is that if I take a known good image (the one I ripped off the chip that was the demo and I of course have no source to) and throw it back on the chip, it does work, and it reads back properly |
| 22:09.10 | landley | Some kinda funky "verification" it's doing then which errors out the values. |
| 22:09.23 | MonMotha | well, the flash starts at 0x00000000, so I can't really go any farther back in the memory map :) |
| 22:09.25 | landley | Is there a rep you can ask questions of? |
| 22:09.38 | landley | You could always see if it wraps. :) |
| 22:09.56 | MonMotha | oh probably, and I'm sure they'll tell me to use CodeWarrior (which is apparently still under development for this chip - after a year) or IAR (which is very expensive) |
| 22:10.08 | MonMotha | I'm guessing it's OpenOCD related |
| 22:10.16 | MonMotha | a disassembly of the compiler's output appears valid |
| 22:10.45 | landley | It's a serial protocol to your jtag? |
| 22:10.49 | MonMotha | it's a Flyswatter 2 |
| 22:11.01 | landley | Can you snoop the serial data? :) |
| 22:11.20 | landley | Make sure openocd isn't screwing up the ffff stuff. |
| 22:11.44 | landley | If it is, that's an openocd-side problem, which is open source software and fixable. |
| 22:11.48 | MonMotha | it's USB, so not easily |
| 22:12.02 | landley | It's a char device. |
| 22:12.25 | ohsix | wireshark can capture usb, presuming the error is before it leaves the host |
| 22:12.32 | landley | ok. |
| 22:12.54 | landley | I have, on more than one occasion, stuck printk()s into the kernel because I didn't know the "proper" way to intercept some weird piece of data. |
| 22:13.12 | landley | being able to run your thing under qemu and bridge the transaction out is really fun too... |
| 22:13.45 | ohsix | wireshark and an emulator is priceless for writing drivers for little usb terds |
| 22:14.06 | MonMotha | hum... |
| 22:14.21 | MonMotha | I wonder if it's pissed that my image isn't exactly a flash page in size (or a multiple thereof) |
| 22:14.36 | landley | shrugs |
| 22:16.26 | MonMotha | well, I know the OpenOCD support for this is very immature. It's not in any released version, and the last patch against it was like a week ago |
| 22:17.55 | landley | MonMotha: bug reports! |
| 22:18.04 | MonMotha | landley: no kidding |
| 22:18.09 | landley | To the tune of the 1960's "spider man" themesong! |
| 22:18.13 | MonMotha | but at this point I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing something wrong |
| 22:18.25 | MonMotha | since flashing the original image from freescale back in does work |
| 22:18.43 | landley | Send the guy who did the last commit your image? |
| 22:18.49 | landley | I dunno. |
| 22:18.53 | MonMotha | well, aside from the fact that it thinks the second half of the flash is a special form of memory |
| 22:19.06 | MonMotha | fortunately, the original image only uses the first 256k |
| 22:23.28 | MonMotha | hum... |
| 22:23.40 | MonMotha | yeah...I don't think this OpenOCD Kinetis code is ready for prime time |
| 22:23.46 | MonMotha | and unfortunately, I'm not being paid to hack on OpenOCD |
| 22:27.39 | landley | MonMotha: if CELF still existed you could ask Tim Bird about possibly funding some work on OpenOCD. |
| 22:29.28 | MonMotha | well, I *may* be able to get this funded. Since it comes down to "Buy all of Freescale's stuff" or "Make OpenOCD work", it's kinda an unknown which is cheaper |
| 22:30.22 | Crofton|work | ask Tim if they can still fund things like this as a LF working group |
| 22:31.27 | landley | In theory, sure. |
| 22:32.10 | landley | Crofton|work: you ask him. :) |
| 22:32.11 | Crofton|work | next time I ahve a chance I'll ask |
| 22:32.26 | landley | It can probably be done, but the Linux Foundation doesn't have an embedded focus. |
| 22:32.33 | Crofton|work | that was a good program by celf, I wonder how much actual work got done though |
| 22:32.40 | landley | Explaining to LF what OpenOCD _is_ goes beyond the engagement I consider worthwhile with them. |
| 22:32.53 | landley | Which program? |
| 22:33.10 | Crofton|work | CELF is a working group |
| 22:33.14 | landley | Celf did the annual conference, if nothing else that was great while it lasted. |
| 22:33.16 | Crofton|work | so I would talk to tim |
| 22:33.26 | landley | Presumably it's happening again this year but I can't find anybody who's actually going to it. |
| 22:33.38 | landley | Go for it. Good luck. It's a great idea. |
| 22:34.37 | landley | The top item on clinuxforum.org is still "Special announcement: merge with the linux foundation." |
| 22:36.22 | landley | Apparently this year CELF is colocated with the Linarro connect conference and the android builder's summit. |
| 22:36.41 | landley | So CELF itself is not remotely a distinct event, it's just this thing the linux foundation shoveled into a pile with other events. |
| 22:36.46 | landley | Dinosaurs mating. |
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