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| 16:44.35 | g1powermac | hey prpplague |
| 16:44.48 | prpplague | g1powermac: greetings |
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| 16:51.09 | landley | I do not get MLK day off at work. |
| 16:53.34 | g1powermac | hey landley, I wanted to ask you a question about gpl/dual licensing |
| 16:54.28 | g1powermac | I found a web based application licensed via gpl, but specifies that if you can't follow the gpl, you must ask for a commercial license |
| 16:55.19 | prpplague | landley: get back to work! |
| 16:55.35 | g1powermac | in this instance, if I use the code in the web app for my own application, but do not distribute the code, yet still allow access what the web app produces via the internet, would I be in violation of the licensing? |
| 16:57.10 | landley | g1powermac: GPLv2 you're fine. You don't distribute the copyrighted material, therefore you don't have to distribute it in any particular format (such as source code). |
| 16:57.39 | landley | GPLv3 _tries_ to change that, but copyright law still doesn't cover _use_, just _distribution_, so it's not really effective. |
| 16:57.47 | landley | All that anti-tiovization crap? Probably doesn't hold up in court. |
| 16:57.58 | g1powermac | ahh, k |
| 16:57.59 | landley | But GPLv2, you're clearly safe. |
| 16:58.00 | g1powermac | thanks |
| 16:58.10 | landley | You're welcome. |
| 16:58.34 | landley | Also, what the program _produces_ is not the same as _the_program_. |
| 16:58.37 | landley | Again, this is copyright law. |
| 16:58.47 | landley | I use a hammer to drive a nail, doesn't mean they own the nail. |
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| 16:58.56 | landley | So a word document isn't copyright by microsoft even if it was created by word. |
| 16:59.32 | landley | A grey area is when bits of the tool wind up _in_ the result, such as when a compiler links a binary against libgcc.a to get the software floating point stuff. |
| 16:59.40 | g1powermac | just to clarify, I'd still be safe even with this clause that this web app has: "If you are interested in embedding bigdata? inside of your product as an OEM using commercial (non-GPL) licensing, please contact us directly." |
| 16:59.52 | landley | Which is why everybody makes sure libgcc.a has a "license exception" that essentially makes it public domain. |
| 17:00.06 | landley | (Ok, bsd licensed, since nobody can breathe in this insane country with a disclaimer of warantee.) |
| 17:00.27 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: It depends. Do you sell the box with the software in to customers? |
| 17:00.28 | landley | You're not an OEM. |
| 17:00.35 | landley | You're not shipping a software package to third parties. |
| 17:00.37 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: If you don't, then you're fine |
| 17:00.43 | landley | If it doesn't leave your hands, you're not distributing the software. |
| 17:00.44 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, no, just a website using bigdata |
| 17:01.03 | landley | (Shipping a box preinstalled with a software package is one way of shipping a software package. :) |
| 17:01.28 | SpeedEvil | landley: and yes, that was what I meant |
| 17:01.46 | g1powermac | alrighty, thanks guys |
| 17:01.51 | landley | This is one reason I'm doing a 2-clause BSD clone of busybox. Engineers are not lawyers, they shouldn't have to BECOME lawyers to DO THEIR JOB. |
| 17:01.59 | landley | I don't care what the FSF says about this. |
| 17:02.05 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 17:02.08 | landley | (Actually I do, I'd like them to _stoppit_.) |
| 17:02.25 | landley | is still pissed about what they did to binutils 2.17. |
| 17:03.25 | landley | Just because _I_ didn't bite the poisoned apple doesn't mean dressing up as an old lady going door to door offering poisoned apples isn't DARN IMPOLITE. |
| 17:03.49 | landley | At a "get the straightjacket" level. |
| 17:03.53 | landley | Butterfly nets. |
| 17:03.57 | landley | I mean, _dude_. |
| 17:20.20 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 17:20.36 | prpplague | anyone got some good examples of porting forward to device tree? |
| 17:38.15 | calculus | I know port fowarding for ssh :) |
| 17:40.51 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 18:51.56 | MonMotha | landley: btw, I did figure out what was going on with my code appearing to erase itself |
| 18:52.54 | MonMotha | landley: turns out this chip has a "flash configuration field" in the middle of the first sector of main flash that contains, amongst other things, the security settings...and the default state upon erase (0xFF) results in a "secured" MCU. OpenOCD notices this and, since it can't do anything with a "secured" MCU, helpfully "mass erases" it |
| 18:53.29 | MonMotha | a "mass erase" gives you a fully erased flash, so all 0xFF...except ONE BYTE is 0xFE in the "flash configuration field", so the MCU is unlocked |
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| 18:58.15 | landley | prpplague: when the first few ARM device tree boards went in they were old boards that used to be hardwired, so look at the commit that added the .dtc file and show the whole thing. |
| 18:58.39 | landley | prplague: it was mentioned in the lwn.net kernel summary for... 3.0 I think, maybe? |
| 18:58.55 | landley | Might have been 3.1 merge window. Something like that. 6-9 months ago. |
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| 18:59.55 | landley | MonMotha: subtle and fiddly. |
| 19:00.16 | landley | So, careful when fiddling with the first block then. |
| 19:00.25 | MonMotha | landley: the whole chip is what I'd call "quirky", which is typical, but it's also poorly documented |
| 19:00.40 | MonMotha | landley: indeed, and you HAVE to fiddle with the first block since it's where your vector table goes |
| 19:01.06 | MonMotha | basically, you have to create a hole in your code between the vector table and the start of your actual code that contains this reserved "flash configuration field" |
| 19:01.59 | landley | Um, doesn't erase of the first block result in a mass erase of the whole thing? Or does it not actually put it in secure mode? |
| 19:02.13 | landley | (How do you create a hole in _one_sector_?) |
| 19:02.32 | landley | Or is this bit not telling the hardware anything, and just telling the tools what to do? |
| 19:04.17 | MonMotha | landley: you can erase either on a sector by sector basis (which is what "flash erase_sector or erase_address" in OpenOCD will do), and that process simply sets that sector to all 0xFF |
| 19:04.51 | MonMotha | landley: OR you can "mass erase" which is a separate command (and, near as I can tell, cannot be issued by OpenOCD except automatically on a "secured" chip), and that first erases the entire flash array then sets the security byte to 0xFE |
| 19:05.09 | MonMotha | you'll also note that it would be pretty easy to miss a 0xFE in a sea of 0xFFs, so you're unlikely to figure this out by chance |
| 19:05.20 | MonMotha | and it definitely tells the hardware what to do |
| 19:05.39 | MonMotha | according to the docs, the chip loads 16 bytes from 0x400 upon reset into some onboard controller |
| 19:06.00 | MonMotha | that seems like it would be subject to reset timing glitches to effectively "catch" the MCU in an unlocked state |
| 19:14.54 | prpplague | landley: yea, found the lwn articles, trying to wade through it |
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| 20:37.49 | crytic | prpplague: hey, are you there? |
| 20:38.52 | prpplague | crytic: yes? |
| 20:39.38 | crytic | prpplague: nice! I did send you an email yesterday or the day before concerning the RCA wifi streamer |
| 20:39.45 | crytic | and was just wondering if you got it ;) |
| 20:40.00 | prpplague | crytic: yes, just haven't had time to respond as of yet |
| 20:40.08 | crytic | ah, no worries |
| 20:40.24 | crytic | I just wasn't sure if I hit any spam filter on the way |
| 20:40.55 | prpplague | iirc the caps are just bypass caps and not required for base operations |
| 20:41.01 | prpplague | i did not populate them for my tests |
| 20:41.41 | crytic | okay, but the ethernet port worked right? |
| 20:42.35 | prpplague | after loading the ethernet driver module |
| 20:42.59 | crytic | oh, uhm. not sure I have done that |
| 20:43.06 | crytic | give me a second :) |
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| 20:44.46 | crytic | # lsmod |
| 20:44.47 | crytic | Module Size Used by |
| 20:44.47 | crytic | wl 1295776 0 |
| 20:44.47 | crytic | bcm_usbshim 2688 1 wl |
| 20:44.48 | crytic | bcmdriver 21840 0 |
| 20:45.02 | prpplague | crytic: just FYI, ALCO Electronics is preparing a kernel source release |
| 20:45.26 | crytic | oh, nice! I was trying to compile the LG source but hit some problems |
| 20:45.32 | prpplague | crytic: doesn't look like the ethernet module is loaded |
| 20:45.35 | crytic | was using a different toolchain though |
| 20:46.23 | crytic | mhm. I don't have any other module in /lib/modules/, and eth0 is present |
| 20:47.01 | prpplague | crytic: oh then you probably have a different firmware with the driver built in, you'd need to check the boot log |
| 20:47.26 | crytic | pegasus and rtl8150 usb ethernet drivers get loaded |
| 20:47.39 | crytic | lsusb and lspci is missing.. but wait a second |
| 20:49.42 | crytic | hrrm, mounting takes longer then it should ;) |
| 20:50.41 | crytic | strange, I somehow broke the ext partition on that usb drive. so no lsusb/lspci for now |
| 20:51.08 | crytic | but I think my ethernet jack just works differently to the one you posted |
| 20:52.53 | crytic | well I'll try and see if sparkfun delivers to germany ;) |
| 20:53.38 | g1powermac | hmm, how much are those RCA thingies again? |
| 20:54.50 | crytic | $40 |
| 20:54.52 | crytic | afaik |
| 20:55.00 | crytic | and pretty hackerfriendly :) |
| 20:55.15 | crytic | they have a second kernel and root partition |
| 20:55.22 | crytic | no root password |
| 20:55.23 | g1powermac | interesting |
| 20:55.25 | crytic | open boot loader |
| 20:55.26 | crytic | :) |
| 20:55.50 | crytic | but there definitely is some work to do |
| 20:55.52 | g1powermac | I wonder how powerful a cpu its got in it |
| 20:56.02 | crytic | 510mhz mips, little endian |
| 20:56.08 | g1powermac | would make for an interestingly cheap clustery thingie :-) |
| 20:56.17 | crytic | ;) |
| 20:56.29 | crytic | well I think it's powers are in decoding hd video |
| 20:56.35 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 20:56.41 | crytic | don't know if that could be used for computing |
| 20:56.45 | g1powermac | probably, with built in decoders |
| 20:56.49 | crytic | yeah |
| 20:57.20 | g1powermac | would love to get something like that price point but with a decent sized fpga in it. . . |
| 20:57.30 | crytic | hehehe |
| 20:57.34 | crytic | keep on dreaming :) |
| 20:57.41 | SpeedEvil | It has a builtin DSP |
| 20:57.55 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: I was wondering about that. |
| 20:58.01 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: But not from that perspective. |
| 20:58.24 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: Screw computing. Databases! |
| 20:58.39 | g1powermac | hehe |
| 20:58.43 | crytic | :P |
| 20:59.04 | SpeedEvil | For a grand, you get 16G ramdrive that is content-addressible |
| 20:59.07 | crytic | prpplague: will you keep the site updated when a kernel source is released? |
| 20:59.13 | prpplague | yea |
| 20:59.20 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, that ain't bad, really |
| 20:59.20 | crytic | great! |
| 20:59.34 | prpplague | crytic: but the next 2 months are going to be pretty busy, so i will be only updating it in off hours |
| 20:59.35 | crytic | on and speaking of kernel, I think there is a lot of stuff missing from the one you uploaded to github |
| 20:59.49 | prpplague | crytic: feel free to register on the website and add to the wiki |
| 21:00.02 | crytic | I actually did just that yesterday ;) |
| 21:00.04 | prpplague | crytic: indeed that one is for the LG st-600 |
| 21:00.28 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, would be interesting to get a bigdata database going on a 16gb ramdisk |
| 21:00.43 | mathis_ | sorry for the nick change, but this is the same I used in the wiki etc |
| 21:00.44 | g1powermac | (bigdata, btw, is a semantic web database) |
| 21:01.40 | mathis_ | prpplague: yeah, but there is one important folder missing |
| 21:01.45 | mathis_ | one second |
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| 21:02.13 | mathis_ | arch/mips/brcmstb |
| 21:02.24 | prpplague | looks |
| 21:03.17 | mathis_ | it's in LG's source package but not in the stuff you uploaded to github |
| 21:04.13 | prpplague | ahh yes indeed |
| 21:04.18 | prpplague | let me double check that |
| 21:04.50 | mathis_ | :) |
| 21:05.32 | prpplague | ahh indeed i missed it on the git commit |
| 21:05.38 | prpplague | i'll have to add it when i get home |
| 21:05.50 | prpplague | it's on my local repo, just not pushed up to the github |
| 21:06.07 | mathis_ | take your time |
| 21:06.34 | mathis_ | did you compile your own cross tool chain or did you use a ready one like emdebian? |
| 21:06.54 | prpplague | mathis_: i used a prebuilt one i grab online |
| 21:07.39 | mathis_ | oki |
| 21:07.55 | mathis_ | sorry for all the questions :) but I will try and post as much of it as possible into the wiki |
| 21:08.14 | prpplague | mathis_: no worries, thanks |
| 21:09.00 | mathis_ | :) |
| 21:35.53 | SpeedEvil | g1powermac: Indeed - even a basic processot can do some sorts of searches of 512M of memory in microseconds. |
| 21:36.21 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 21:37.36 | g1powermac | whats the max ram one mobo can take these days? |
| 21:38.56 | SpeedEvil | True |
| 21:39.20 | roxfan | mine has 6 slots and i think the max module it takes is 4GB |
| 21:39.22 | roxfan | so 24GB |
| 21:39.34 | roxfan | it's about two years old i think |
| 21:40.55 | SpeedEvil | mehs. |
| 21:40.59 | SpeedEvil | I'm stuck on 3G |
| 21:41.06 | SpeedEvil | Though it is a ~4 year old laptop |
| 21:41.26 | g1powermac | has 8gb in this laptop |
| 21:42.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: almost marked a post on the pandaboard mailing list asking about cross-compiling ruby as spam, hehe |
| 21:42.55 | CosmicPenguin | and get off my lawn |
| 21:43.06 | prpplague | hehe |
| 21:43.39 | prpplague | wonders how the dragon board is doing |
| 21:43.58 | CosmicPenguin | heh, I got one |
| 21:44.02 | CosmicPenguin | did you? :) |
| 21:44.02 | landley | SpeedEvil: I'm stuck on 2G. |
| 21:44.05 | landley | I envy your 3G. |
| 21:44.22 | SpeedEvil | hah. |
| 21:44.30 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: no, Tia never sent me one |
| 21:44.53 | landley | My Acer Aspire One D255E is the _cutest_ little thing, incredibly convenient, battery lasts FOREVER, whole thing costs $250 and weighs nothing and I have _yet_ to break it, plus a marvelous keyboard for its size. |
| 21:44.54 | CosmicPenguin | I haven't turned mine on, but the box is here |
| 21:44.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe |
| 21:45.04 | SpeedEvil | High-level languages on small embedded boards still feels kinda wrong. |
| 21:45.05 | landley | But you can't install more than 2G ram in the thing with a crowbar. |
| 21:45.16 | SpeedEvil | landley: It's depressing. |
| 21:45.17 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i wonder if Q is going to be at ELC? |
| 21:45.31 | landley | prpplague: did somebody confirm they were going to be at ELC? |
| 21:45.39 | landley | I keep asking and everything specific I asked said they're not going. |
| 21:45.48 | CosmicPenguin | There will be Q people at ELC |
| 21:45.59 | MonMotha | prpplague: do you know of any resources that have some "tricks" for automating OpenOCD fully from a command line (e.g. "make flash" to dump the application on the chip, "make debug" to launch GDB connected to it and halted at reset, etc.)? It seems like a task that isn't worth re-inventing. |
| 21:46.04 | CosmicPenguin | And our fingerprints are all over Android builders |
| 21:46.06 | landley | (There are _companies_ confirmed to be there, just not _people_.) |
| 21:46.07 | prpplague | landley: "they" being who? qualcomm ? |
| 21:46.12 | SpeedEvil | landley: I have a laptop, that is _lovely_ - nice clear 10" display, awesome keyboard, magnesium chassis, 1.1Kg, trackpoint, 4:3 display, 12h battery life (with most recent cells) |
| 21:46.22 | SpeedEvil | landley: Of course - it's PII/300 |
| 21:46.23 | landley | prpplague: I haven't talked to qualcomm for a year. |
| 21:46.37 | CosmicPenguin | I wish I could say that |
| 21:46.41 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea openocd has full scripting support |
| 21:46.46 | SpeedEvil | landley: I'm sort-of-wondering about swapping the screen for an ipad2, and sticking a small ARM board in there. |
| 21:47.05 | SpeedEvil | ipad2 display |
| 21:47.09 | MonMotha | prpplague: right. I'm just thinking that somebody has to have already scripted what I need :) |
| 21:47.28 | prpplague | MonMotha: there are some in the tcl dir, but you'll have to hunt them down |
| 21:47.29 | SpeedEvil | should take it down to ~900g, with ~24h battery life. |
| 21:47.35 | MonMotha | prpplague: hum, ok |
| 21:47.43 | landley | prpplague: they being you and other people on this channel, solar and other people on the gentoo-embedded channel, the guys on #uclibc... |
| 21:47.57 | prpplague | MonMotha: most of the people who do those generally make their own |
| 21:48.07 | MonMotha | prpplague: hum, ok |
| 21:48.14 | MonMotha | I guess I already had to fix the support for my chip, anyway |
| 21:48.21 | prpplague | landley: oh, sorry i misunderstood your question |
| 21:48.23 | MonMotha | I improved flash write_image speed by ~100-150x |
| 21:48.37 | prpplague | landley: i haven't heard from anyone that has confirmed attendence for feb ELC |
| 21:48.38 | MonMotha | (and no, I'm not exaggerating) |
| 21:48.46 | prpplague | MonMotha: nice! |
| 21:49.09 | SpeedEvil | MonMotha: :) |
| 21:49.24 | prpplague | landley: have you? |
| 21:49.32 | MonMotha | prpplague: I'll probably push it upstream eventually, but their procedure for submitting things is a bit complex and not worth my time at the moment |
| 21:49.35 | landley | prpplague: nope. |
| 21:49.40 | MonMotha | if they just wanted a patch sent to the mailing list, that would be one thing |
| 21:49.44 | landley | I'm not 100% certain Tim Bird will be there. Probably. |
| 21:49.50 | SpeedEvil | I don't suppose anyones come across anyone giving any teardowns in details of protocols on real-life SD cards? (and of course it's going to vary per device) |
| 21:50.09 | landley | Keep in mind the Linux Foundation took it over and it's now colocated with 2 other conferences. |
| 21:50.53 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea, that is my problem with openocd as well |
| 21:51.03 | landley | So it could just be one of those "As I walk through the valley of the shadow of Android Builder's Summit, I will attend no panels, because really I've got other things to do and I'm mostly here for the hallway track anyway, ya know?" |
| 21:51.11 | prpplague | landley: oh? |
| 21:51.15 | prpplague | landley: what have you heard? |
| 21:51.50 | landley | https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/embedded-linux-conference |
| 21:51.53 | prpplague | landley: re tim i mean |
| 21:52.16 | landley | Actually, yeah he is going to CELF, nevermind. He did mention it. |
| 21:52.21 | prpplague | landley: yea i know about the co-location stuff, it was one of the items i complained to time about |
| 21:52.43 | landley | (I had a phone call with him last week about whether or not some company might find toybox useful, and I thought he hadn't mentioned CELF, but he did.) |
| 21:52.53 | prpplague | landley: ahh |
| 21:53.37 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: what did you think about the co-location with android builders summit last year? |
| 21:53.54 | landley | He was going to meet privately there with somebody who might fund something. |
| 21:54.06 | CosmicPenguin | ELC was first, so the strange people didn't show up until Wednesday |
| 21:54.10 | landley | Which is probably a given, with Tim, that he's doing that kind of thing at any given point in time. |
| 21:54.41 | CosmicPenguin | This year its the other way around, but I don't think it will matter. Not much overlap between android builders and ELC |
| 21:54.47 | landley | I remember when Kernel Summit was colocated with OLS, and it turned into an excuse for all the kernel guys not to bother to show up for OLS itself and just go to the kernel summit. |
| 21:55.01 | landley | It sucked the developers OUT of the existing conference. Bit of a drawback, there. |
| 22:02.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, ELC-E was at the exact same time as LinuxCon-EU |
| 22:04.11 | CosmicPenguin | Everybody loves conferences |
| 22:04.28 | CosmicPenguin | geeks, beer, whisky, beer, whisky, afternoon session after the hangover, more beer |
| 22:05.50 | CosmicPenguin | There is usually somebody jumping into a pool at some point |
| 22:05.58 | g1powermac | heh |
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