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| 15:33.46 | landley | Morning. |
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| 15:45.49 | landley | So far, turning 40 is no fun. |
| 15:46.46 | av500 | gm |
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| 15:56.02 | Mirell | landley: Belated happy birthday? Or is it today |
| 15:56.20 | landley | It's today, and thanks. |
| 15:56.36 | landley | Sigh. Now it's made h-online. http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Controversy-around-Busybox-alternative-1426119.html |
| 15:56.53 | landley | Why do they feel the need to quote Bruce Fscking Perens as if he's somehow relevant? |
| 15:58.00 | Mirell | No idea. |
| 15:58.24 | kergoth | that article doesn't make any sense to me |
| 15:58.57 | kergoth | if you're shipping things that aren't gpl, no shit you don't have to deal with gpl licensing issues. and if the kernel folks don't want to let the sfc do their dirty work, thats their perogative |
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| 15:59.58 | kergoth | guh, i think today is Monday in disguise |
| 16:05.56 | av500 | landley: well, the perens remarks about what SFC settles for I find informative |
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| 16:14.27 | landley | kergoth: when i first became busybox maintainer, I inherited Erik Anderson's old "hall of shame", a web page listing companies that were shipping busybox without source, or letting us know what (if any) modifications they'd made to it. |
| 16:15.21 | landley | I went "the hall of shame's 5 years old, obviously doesn't work" and asked Pamela Jones of Groklaw if there was any pro-bono legal representation for open source projects. She pointed me at Eben Moglen's pet project to get his law school students some real world experience: the SFLC. |
| 16:15.51 | landley | They were willing to represent us for free and file lawsuits against the hall of shame backlog. Erik and I signed some papers, and they were off. |
| 16:16.29 | landley | A year later, the first half-dozen settlements didn't produce a single line of usable code for busybox. None of these guys _had_ modified the code in any useful way. |
| 16:17.17 | landley | But the SFLC used it as a source of funding, creating a self-financing legal machine. Each settlement netted them $20k or so they used to launch the next one, and with the gpl@busybox.net address forwarding directly to them they didn't run out of allegations. |
| 16:18.05 | landley | The FSF heard about this legal machine, signed up to be represented, and used it to sue Cisco into destroying the linksys division over 7 year old code. Again: no code came out of it, the end result was over a dozen engineers who had been doing full-time Linux development stopped working on Linux. (_THAT_ code was going to be released.) |
| 16:18.24 | landley | Instead cisco redesigned its products around non-linux embedded OSes. How the heck does that help Linux? |
| 16:18.54 | landley | In response to that, I terminated my relationship with SFLC and told them to stop representing my copyrights. But they still had Erik, and they signed up current maintainer Denys Vlasenko, so I couldn't actually stop them from continuing. |
| 16:19.58 | landley | Other people liked using busybox as a bludgeon against companies, because the SFLC would claim they had to the right to terminate the license on ALL GPL code (even if they had no copyright to that code), forever, and could claim arbitrary conditions for reinstatement. |
| 16:20.22 | landley | Such as "you pay us to audit your future products for compliance". Extortion much? |
| 16:20.39 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 16:20.48 | landley | I am _disgusted_ that my old code is being used as a bludgeon to drive companies away from Linux. |
| 16:21.27 | landley | If kernel guys want to sue over the kernel (despite Linus Torvalds being ok with binary modules) fine. Don't leverage an unrelated project to do it. |
| 16:21.48 | kergoth | that's insane. I'm fine with making people obey their licenses, but .. yeah, exactly.. |
| 16:21.52 | kergoth | shakes head and sighs |
| 16:22.05 | landley | If the only way I have of stopping it is to render busybox irrelevant, I'm ok with this. |
| 16:22.12 | av500 | please do :) |
| 16:22.24 | av500 | ask for a large Sony TV in return :) |
| 16:22.28 | landley | But the people leveraging busybox for unrelated purposes are freaking out that I'm taking their toy away. |
| 16:22.32 | av500 | larger than what SFC got from bestbuy |
| 16:22.59 | landley | That's the "controversy". People who DIDN'T write this code telling me to stop writing _new_ code that competes with my own old code. |
| 16:23.34 | prpplague | must be behind on the contreoversy |
| 16:23.51 | landley | Anyway, that was my day yesterday. |
| 16:24.07 | landley | Lots and lots of comments on whatsisname's blog and on lwn.net. |
| 16:24.14 | florian | landley: congratulations... |
| 16:24.29 | av500 | landley: yes, happy birthday nevertheless |
| 16:24.35 | av500 | ass xxiao to give you a day off |
| 16:24.37 | av500 | ask |
| 16:24.39 | av500 | :) |
| 16:25.06 | mnemoc | a good bday present would be a full time contract with sony :p |
| 16:25.07 | landley | when Bruce Fscking Perens showed up I lost my temper and stopped being polite. Which is a bad thing to do on lwn.net and I feel bad about it, but that guy hasn't written any new code and keeps trying to order me around and take credit for things he had nothing to do with. |
| 16:25.22 | landley | mnemoc: I like polycom. |
| 16:25.28 | mnemoc | :) |
| 16:26.01 | landley | I admit sitting in a cubicle utterly paralyzes me... |
| 16:26.30 | av500 | landley: take a polycom home and work from there, they do make video conf stuff, no? |
| 16:26.50 | prpplague | landley: hehe, one of the TI reps was at Polycom on monday |
| 16:27.17 | landley | prpplague: yes, he bought breakfast tacos. (I was out sick.) |
| 16:27.25 | prpplague | landley: doh |
| 16:28.02 | alex4nder- | landley: that sounds like George France, except he didn't write any original code. |
| 16:28.03 | landley | Still a bit under the weather, but it's hard to tell how much of that is lingering cold and how much was reading https://twitter.com/#!/PeterBrettPPUK/status/164510254724427777 as the last thing before going to bed on the night I turn 40. |
| 16:28.09 | av500 | prpplague: pls send your reps with tacos here too |
| 16:28.16 | prpplague | av500: hehe |
| 16:28.38 | florian | alex4nder-: Comparing someone with GF is evil ;) |
| 16:28.41 | prpplague | landley: woke up with a sore ear this morning, seems to be an ear infection :( |
| 16:28.44 | landley | alex4nder-: I looked at bruce's "original" code. Electric Fence is something I could have written in the first month I learned C. |
| 16:29.06 | landley | Each malloc has a guard page with different permissions before or after it. Wheee. |
| 16:29.18 | alex4nder- | florian: yah, what a douche. |
| 16:29.23 | landley | I _did_ write memory diagnostic wrappers like that back under OS/2 before I'd even heard of that guy. |
| 16:29.51 | landley | i dunno who George France is. Doesn't sound like I want to. |
| 16:29.56 | prpplague | landley: i'll have to check lwn for the story |
| 16:30.11 | landley | The h-online thing is a pretty decent summary. |
| 16:30.12 | florian | landley: yes |
| 16:30.13 | prpplague | landley: so you are getting pressure to stop work on toybox? |
| 16:30.20 | landley | There was a lot of sound and fury signifying very little, which they distilled. |
| 16:30.35 | landley | I'm just amazed Bruce didn't boil off in the distilling process. |
| 16:30.44 | mnemoc | evil rob anti-freedom landley |
| 16:30.50 | alex4nder- | landley: George France is a project scavenger.. he takes stuff you wrote, and once enough time has passed he claims it was his project from the beginning. |
| 16:30.50 | landley | prpplague: I don't even know what pressure of that sort would look like. |
| 16:30.55 | alex4nder- | landley: see: all of handhelds.org |
| 16:31.03 | landley | Doing so has pissed off people I don't like, which is a bonus really. |
| 16:31.39 | landley | alex4nder-: heh. If anything would get me back together with the SFLC, that would. |
| 16:32.14 | florian | "Handhelds.org is undergoing renovations - The site should be active on the week of Dec 1st, 2011!" |
| 16:32.15 | landley | Stripping off copyright notices isn't actually a _license_ issue. It's fraud. |
| 16:33.13 | landley | Anyway, I should go do work things... |
| 16:33.23 | alex4nder- | florian: haha |
| 16:34.01 | alex4nder- | him and Russ Nelson.. the dream team |
| 16:34.20 | florian | :-) |
| 16:34.42 | prpplague | landley: reading up on the posts |
| 16:34.42 | kergoth | landley: happy birthday |
| 16:34.45 | kergoth | just ignore the naysayers :) |
| 16:35.01 | prpplague | landley: and just for my $0.02 , i am backing you on this |
| 16:35.01 | landley | kergoth: thank you. |
| 16:35.09 | landley | prpplague: thanks. |
| 16:35.20 | prpplague | would wish landley a happy birthday, but prpplague doesn't do birthday stuff |
| 16:35.41 | landley | prpplague: I posted about as much on the original blog as on lwn.net. It was a day of posting... |
| 16:35.49 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 16:35.56 | landley | I meant to write a blog entry summarizing my position, but by the time I got home I didn't really _care_ anymore... |
| 16:36.07 | landley | *shudder* Bruceness. |
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| 16:37.34 | landley | Oh _joy_. |
| 16:37.40 | landley | Is anybody's lwn.net subscription up to date? |
| 16:37.50 | landley | https://twitter.com/#!/lwnnet/status/164746573320949760 |
| 16:38.47 | landley | Screw it, I'm cutting a toybox release tonight. |
| 16:38.50 | wmat | just notices lwn post |
| 16:39.05 | landley | My subscription expired, I can't read it until it goes free. |
| 16:39.23 | mnemoc | landley: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/478308/d8b6fa1940289229/ |
| 16:40.17 | landley | mnemoc: thanks. |
| 16:40.52 | mnemoc | yw |
| 16:49.43 | landley | I preferred the h-online article. |
| 16:52.19 | prpplague | landley: their entire premises is based on a faulty assumption |
| 16:55.54 | wmat | fwiw, the elinux.org wiki doesn't promote anything, it is merely a repository of knowledge |
| 16:56.09 | prpplague | i'd like to add my $0.02 on it, but i don't think i have enough standing to make my response creditable |
| 16:56.53 | wmat | prpplague: all sane responses are credible, please respond |
| 17:02.37 | landley | Go for it, I can't comment unless I re-up my subscription which i can't do from work. |
| 17:03.20 | mnemoc | landley: you can respond on your blog and we can then link that on a comment |
| 17:03.24 | landley | wmat: And I'm the one who filled out the http://www.elinux.org/Busybox_replacement page. |
| 17:03.31 | landley | Which needs to have xargs added in the "working" category... |
| 17:03.53 | kergoth | I'm getting to the point that I just can't be bothered to comment on such things. If idiots want to think something stupid, they're welcome to it |
| 17:03.57 | kergoth | heh |
| 17:04.39 | landley | prpplague: if you never post because nobody knows who you are because you never post... Kinda circular argument there. |
| 17:05.07 | prpplague | landley: hehe indeed |
| 17:06.03 | av500 | prpplague: I can vouch for you |
| 17:06.43 | av500 | landley: btw, its not true that nobody modifies busybox: https://gitorious.org/archos/archos-gpl-gen9/blobs/master/buildroot/package/busybox/busybox-1.7.2-tty_high_speed_rates.patch :) |
| 17:06.49 | prpplague | jokes with av500 |
| 17:07.15 | prpplague | av500: thats kind of like one homeless person vouch for another homeless persons credit standing.... |
| 17:07.37 | av500 | and this beauty: https://gitorious.org/archos/archos-gpl-gen9/blobs/master/buildroot/package/busybox/busybox-1.7.2-sulogin.patch |
| 17:07.43 | prpplague | still reading the posts |
| 17:11.30 | landley | av500: agreed. We just never got any of that stuff from any of the code dumps related to a lawsuit, at least not in the year I was involved. |
| 17:11.47 | landley | And none of the repository commits have been annotated with such source info since, that I noticed. |
| 17:11.53 | landley | Can't say I'm paying too much attention to busybox anymore. |
| 17:12.05 | landley | Although they do seem to have broken "cp" in the move from 1.19.2 to 1.19.3. :P |
| 17:12.40 | landley | Which I of course notice right _after_ cutting an aboriginal linux release. (vim isn't building.) |
| 17:15.24 | prpplague | landley: this whole thing is silly, prime example of why companies fear GPL in the first plac3e |
| 17:16.26 | calculus | landley: looks like your *nix directory structure post is making the rounds, http://www.osnews.com/story/25556/Understanding_the_bin_sbin_usr_bin_usr_sbin_Split |
| 17:16.43 | landley | *blink* *blink* |
| 17:16.56 | landley | I'm pretty sure I've been _less_ interesting than usual recently. |
| 17:17.21 | landley | Working a day job doing board bringup. None of the stuff I've worked on has even _shipped_ yet... |
| 17:17.28 | prpplague | landley: you should take a break and fly out to ELC for a day or two so we could have a short round table on this with Tim |
| 17:17.39 | landley | Hmmm, maybe. |
| 17:17.53 | prpplague | landley: i'm going out on the 16th for just 2 days |
| 17:18.46 | prpplague | landley: just fyi, the idea of a "swiss arm binary" was also used in the early 80's in the UZIX os by doug braun |
| 17:19.14 | landley | Good to know. :) |
| 17:19.36 | landley | (My point was just that The Bruce hadn't come up with it.) |
| 17:20.11 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:21.57 | wmat | heh, The Bruce |
| 17:22.36 | wmat | Bruce the Bruce, sounds like some acient Scots clan leader |
| 17:23.10 | landley | The sad part is that explanation of /bin vs /usr/bin is _slightly_ inaccurate. |
| 17:23.20 | landley | Their first disk was actually 0.5 megs, it wasn't an rk05 disk pack. |
| 17:24.05 | wmat | I clearly have licensephobia, as reading a sentence with the word license in it immediately makes me shiver and feel nauseous |
| 17:24.16 | landley | The /usr disk was an rk05 (which is 2.5 megs, not 1.5: still adds up to 3 but I got the proportions wrong). |
| 17:24.40 | landley | The 0.5 disk was way faster than the rk05, so when they leaked into /usr they kept the common system binaries on the fast disk. |
| 17:25.32 | landley | When they got /home and dedicated /usr entirely to the system, they still cared what went where due to the relative speeds of the disks. And they had the mount order issue. |
| 17:25.44 | landley | But still: Implementation details. :) |
| 17:26.03 | landley | wmat: 2 clause BSD is as close to public domain as you can reasonably get these days. |
| 17:26.09 | landley | "No warantee, don't sue, have fun". |
| 17:27.15 | kergoth | I usually do MIT, just because I can never remember which N clause bsd is which :) |
| 17:27.17 | landley | (Tim wanted apache since that's what toolbox is under, but dude. If I'm going to take the plunge and leave GPLv2 I'm going to clean it out as minimal as I can get.) |
| 17:28.06 | wmat | landley: you're the only contractor candidate listed on the Busybox replacement project page |
| 17:28.17 | landley | wmat: yup. |
| 17:28.18 | wmat | is that still valid now that you're working full time? |
| 17:28.33 | landley | wmat: we hadn't gotten as far as actually throwing money at anything. |
| 17:29.04 | landley | They were pondering buying my mornings and weekends, or hiring another guy to feed me code, or maybe both. |
| 17:29.11 | landley | But it was blue sky after CELF stuff. |
| 17:29.30 | landley | Kinda doubt it'll happen now. Oh well. |
| 17:31.36 | landley | wmat: keep in mind the evening and weekend work I've BEEN doing has added a dozen commands to toybox since the relaunch: http://lists.landley.net/pipermail/toybox-landley.net/2012-January/000026.html |
| 17:32.07 | landley | Tim was pondering paying me enough for my wife to not mind me essentially ignoring all social commitments for 6 months or so to get a 1.0 release out. |
| 17:34.57 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 17:35.01 | wmat | wow, that'd cost a lot in this household |
| 17:35.04 | prpplague | landley: didn't know you were social |
| 17:35.46 | landley | Thursday Me, Fade, and Mirell here are all going to see Groundhog's Day at the Alamo Drafthouse. |
| 17:36.15 | landley | http://drafthouse.com/movies/groundhog_day_dinner/austin |
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| 17:36.28 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 17:36.32 | prpplague | T0mW: hey bud |
| 17:37.19 | prpplague | landley: i was googling around to see if i could find some official/unofficial statement from google as to why they had originally made toolbox |
| 17:37.31 | landley | I spoke to some of the guys at one point. |
| 17:37.48 | landley | Basically toolbox and bionic was because they thought busybox and a real libc was overkill. |
| 17:37.55 | landley | All they cared about was running dalvik. |
| 17:37.59 | landley | Then everything else was in java. |
| 17:38.25 | landley | They intentionally made the most minimal, stripped-down userspace they could capable of running their JVM. |
| 17:38.31 | prpplague | landley: interesting, i had heard it was also that they wanted a more clean license |
| 17:38.44 | landley | The "no GPL in userspace" thing came after, when GPLv3 came out and the world at large went "ew". |
| 17:38.51 | landley | Android was already in development at that point. |
| 17:39.31 | landley | (I didn't explicitly ask about the causal connection between no GPL in userspace and GPLv3, I'm just saying _when_ it happened...) |
| 17:39.32 | prpplague | ahh ok |
| 17:39.56 | landley | The busybox lawsuits happened around that time too, probably partially my fault... |
| 17:40.27 | prpplague | i respect that people want to get gpl compliance, i deal with it myself, but it is the real world and they can't force use of GPL |
| 17:40.40 | landley | But it wasn't initially a license thing, it was a "nobody is going to administer these phones, we're creating 8 gazillion net-connected devices, let's not expose a large bug surface outside the java sandbox please." |
| 17:40.57 | prpplague | gotcha |
| 17:41.11 | landley | That was _before_ the "mainframe begat minicomputer which begat PC which begat smartphone" thing became obvious. |
| 17:41.32 | landley | When the smartphone becomes self-hosting, it will displace the PC the same way the PC displaced the minicomputer, and the minicomputer displaced the mainframe. |
| 17:41.40 | landley | Kick the old thing up into the server space and forget it's there. |
| 17:42.01 | landley | Nobody needed to wait for a printout from the mainframe when you had a minicomputer terminal on yoru desk. |
| 17:42.08 | landley | Nobody needed a minicomputer terminal when you had your own computer. |
| 17:42.16 | landley | Nobody needs the computer on your desk when you have a computer in your pocket. |
| 17:42.49 | landley | Add something like http://us.toshiba.com/computers/accessories/dynadock/ and a native compiler, and your phone is a self-hosting development workstation. |
| 17:42.57 | landley | Assuming it's got a full posix command line, where is where toybox comes in. :) |
| 17:43.13 | T0mW | prpplague: hey guy |
| 17:43.14 | landley | (Aboriginal's the smallest self-hosting system I could come up with. Adapting it for android sounds like fun...) |
| 17:44.01 | prpplague | T0mW: whats this i hear about you getting someone knocked up and having to get married? |
| 17:44.47 | T0mW | prpplague: lol |
| 17:45.08 | T0mW | prpplague: yeah, she is my Honey. |
| 17:45.49 | T0mW | prpplague: met Sandy a year ago and we hit it off very well. |
| 17:46.12 | T0mW | prpplague: we've been living together for the past year. |
| 17:46.28 | prpplague | T0mW: dandy |
| 17:47.00 | T0mW | prpplague: yes, different too. After living as a bachelor for so long. |
| 17:47.56 | T0mW | prpplague: she is a "keeper". |
| 17:48.30 | T0mW | busy converting svn repositories to git |
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| 18:16.21 | prpplague | landley: let me know if you decide to come to ELC for discussions |
| 18:16.39 | *** join/#edev NightMonkey (~NightMonk@pdpc/supporter/professional/nightmonkey) |
| 18:21.20 | landley | Depends on how cheap the flights and hotel rooms are. (Anybody there got a couch?) |
| 18:24.03 | prpplague | landley: flights were about $250 round trip |
| 18:24.13 | prpplague | landley: hotel was pretty expensive |
| 18:24.17 | prpplague | $190 a night |
| 18:26.25 | landley | Ouch. |
| 18:26.41 | landley | Honestly, telephones exist for a reason... |
| 18:27.10 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:27.24 | landley | I'm all for discussing, but $400+ to wander through and say hi when I'm not sure my presence makes a difference... |
| 18:27.31 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:27.34 | landley | And that's not counting ELC registration. Or more than one hotel night. |
| 18:27.50 | landley | (Flying the same day as doing something never ends well.) |
| 18:28.52 | landley | What would we be discussing at ELC again? |
| 18:29.12 | landley | "Hey everybody, I've got this thing called toybox, could you give it a try? Oh worry, I haven't really fleshed out the shell yet, I can see how that would be a problem..." |
| 18:30.03 | landley | It needs about a month of full-time work to be useful, and at my current rate of dinking at it, that's about 6 months actual work. |
| 18:30.28 | landley | Still, I should definitely put out a release this evening.:) |
| 18:30.32 | landley | (Toybox: now with xargs!) |
| 18:30.49 | landley | Blah, and I should do rm while I'm at it. |
| 18:30.59 | landley | rm -r is always a terrifying command to debug, but that's why qemu was invented... |
| 18:34.00 | prpplague | landley: i think it would be more of a chat with Tim and a few other people on how to properly state the goals of toybox and ward off the GPL idealogs |
| 18:35.06 | landley | I'm not sure there's a phrasing that would make the FSF zealots go away. |
| 18:35.14 | landley | The GPLv2 guys probably don't care. |
| 18:35.27 | landley | If they want to enforce the kernel license, they can use the kernel copyrights to do it. |
| 18:35.34 | landley | That's a separate can of worms. |
| 18:35.39 | landley | This is me cleaning up my mess. |
| 18:36.00 | prpplague | understood |
| 18:36.20 | prpplague | well i'll chat with Tim about it, as time is available |
| 18:36.34 | landley | I hooked busybox up with the SFLC in the first place. It was a mistake. I'm aware that the FSF hijacked it and has been joyriding, and now I'm taking their toy away. Crimea has a river. |
| 18:37.14 | landley | It's called the Dneister. |
| 18:37.24 | landley | Dniester. |
| 18:37.39 | landley | So when people say "Crimea river", they are presumably referring to the Deiester. FYI. |
| 18:37.44 | landley | Dniester. |
| 18:37.59 | prpplague | hehe |
| 18:38.21 | prpplague | Tim seemed pretty upset at some of the accusations |
| 18:39.19 | prpplague | i know elinux gets a lot of traffic, but i am surprised that people were reading through the change logs and found that page |
| 18:52.34 | calculus | I might go to the tech showcase thing at ELC, like I did last year |
| 18:53.58 | prpplague | calculus: dandy |
| 18:54.04 | prpplague | calculus: that is thursday night |
| 18:54.14 | prpplague | calculus: should see you there then |
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| 18:59.21 | landley | prpplague: Tim personally wrote a command for toybox. The people complaining never contributed to busybox that I am aware of. |
| 18:59.45 | landley | They're non-coders bitching about what they think _other_ people should do. I.E. the FSF's support base. |
| 18:59.55 | prpplague | landley: yea |
| 19:01.29 | landley | Hmmm... I am reminded that Woody Allen said 80% of success is showing up. |
| 19:01.36 | landley | Kinda implies I should go to CELF... |
| 19:18.50 | prpplague | grumbles about his ear hurting |
| 19:25.48 | calculus | prpplague: dinner on Wednesday night would be good too :) |
| 19:26.04 | prpplague | calculus: i am not flying in until thursday morning |
| 19:28.20 | landley | prpplague: you might as well take advantage of antibiotics while we've still got 'em. |
| 19:29.13 | prpplague | landley: i try not to take any for minor stuff |
| 19:43.53 | Mirell | Yay, first paycheck |
| 19:45.49 | prpplague | jokes with Mirell |
| 19:46.04 | prpplague | Mirell: best $53.23 you ever earned? |
| 19:49.14 | landley | Mirell: woot. |
| 19:50.56 | Mirell | prpplague: Riiiight |
| 19:58.31 | landley | Mirell: I suppose any amount greater than $53.23 has to have a "best" $53.23 as a subset thereof. |
| 19:58.36 | landley | The rest being gravy, in a way... |
| 19:58.51 | landley | Unless you subscribe to the heresy that money is fungible. |
| 20:00.58 | landley | Sigh. Remind me to add my bzip2 implementation to toybox and make it automatically scale to SMP. |
| 20:04.55 | T0mW | Mirell: W2 or 1099? |
| 20:11.12 | Mirell | T0mW: W2, full time employee |
| 20:39.33 | prpplague | Mirell: dandy |
| 20:39.45 | prpplague | Mirell: glad to hear you are fitting in with the new job |
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| 21:14.55 | landley | The fun never ends: http://lwn.net/Articles/478724/ |
| 21:15.16 | prpplague | looks |
| 21:22.14 | landley | Am I the only person who has a deeply orwellian shiver when someone argues that it's perfectly reasonable to demand that random third parties "pay our costs for bringing you into compilance" in the name of freedom? |
| 21:22.39 | prpplague | landley: not alone |
| 21:22.41 | landley | Enforcing freedom since 1999, I guess. |
| 21:23.10 | prpplague | landley: i don;t want MS or FSF with the power to audit me |
| 21:23.13 | landley | Not gonna comment on that post. |
| 21:23.14 | landley | Just not gonna. |
| 21:23.20 | landley | I've decided to shut up and show them the code. |
| 21:23.36 | landley | prpplague: you can comment, of course. |
| 21:24.44 | prpplague | landley: i've been trying to come up with a sensible way to address the comments, but i keep getting to the point were i say out loud, "this is FSCKn stupid" |
| 21:45.03 | landley | prpplague: join the club. |
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| 21:58.45 | T0mW | Mirell: ooo! :) |
| 21:59.04 | T0mW | Mirell: benefits! |
| 22:00.18 | Mirell | T0mW: Indeed |
| 22:00.39 | Mirell | I consider the souped up MacBook Pro a benefit. |
| 22:01.03 | T0mW | LOL |
| 22:01.52 | T0mW | Mirell: hey, anymore, any paycheck is a cause for a celebration. |
| 22:02.02 | Mirell | Aye |
| 22:02.29 | T0mW | I've been, basically, going week-to-week afraid that it is my last. |
| 22:02.38 | Mirell | Ouch. |
| 22:02.39 | T0mW | Gotta get out of there. |
| 22:03.22 | T0mW | Mirell: they just laid off most of the company, all that is left is one sales guy, the bookeeper and a couple engineers. |
| 22:03.33 | Mirell | Not a good sign. |
| 22:03.41 | T0mW | Heh, nope |
| 22:03.56 | T0mW | Duh, I think it is time to move on. |
| 22:03.58 | T0mW | ? |
| 22:04.28 | Mirell | Definitely time to look |
| 22:04.44 | T0mW | What does the MacBook do? |
| 22:04.52 | Mirell | Eh? |
| 22:05.03 | T0mW | Never seen one. |
| 22:05.20 | Mirell | Wow. |
| 22:05.23 | T0mW | last I heard, apple did text + graphics. |
| 22:05.49 | T0mW | maybe browsed the net too. |
| 22:06.08 | Mirell | http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/ |
| 22:06.21 | T0mW | just was wondering if you could run vi on it? |
| 22:06.27 | T0mW | :P |
| 22:06.29 | Mirell | Uh, yes. |
| 22:08.11 | T0mW | pricy |
| 22:08.25 | calculus | for running just vi, yes |
| 22:10.03 | T0mW | Got the boss's Sony Vaio here to work on. 512G SSD and such. Nice, I put Fedora on it. |
| 22:10.49 | T0mW | hehhee wiped Windows 7 off it. |
| 22:10.49 | g1powermac | T0mW, it even comes with vi default! :-) |
| 22:10.59 | T0mW | g1powermac: lol |
| 22:11.14 | T0mW | g1powermac: gcc built in, even. |
| 22:11.25 | g1powermac | actually, gcc isn't built in |
| 22:11.36 | Mirell | But XCode/gcc is free |
| 22:11.46 | g1powermac | though it comes on the install discs (I have pre Lion version, so I have install cds) |
| 22:12.02 | g1powermac | yea |
| 22:12.20 | T0mW | phew! $5 billion IPO for, err, Facebook?! |
| 22:12.34 | g1powermac | myeah, nutty |
| 22:12.51 | T0mW | how the fruit are you going to make money with Facebook? |
| 22:12.57 | g1powermac | is surprised they took this long to IPO |
| 22:13.17 | T0mW | Sell other peoples data for identity theft? |
| 22:13.39 | g1powermac | I wonder if it is all really from advertising |
| 22:14.04 | g1powermac | I wonder if they do trend research stuff via data mining and such |
| 22:14.14 | T0mW | probably. |
| 22:14.30 | T0mW | I'm sure your data is their data. |
| 22:14.38 | g1powermac | thats one area I've been doing a bit of research on lately |
| 22:14.45 | g1powermac | most definitely |
| 22:15.37 | g1powermac | has been attempting to teach himself statistics so he can understand these data mining algorithms. . . |
| 22:18.47 | T0mW | g1powermac: naw, don't bother. If you do that than you'll never be good at what you do now. Too many interests and no specializaton. |
| 22:19.25 | T0mW | g1powermac: it's like database, if you try to write database stuff then you'll forget how to code applications. |
| 22:19.46 | T0mW | SQL will suck all your creativity away. |
| 22:20.28 | g1powermac | forgetting does happen, but you'll never go back to the state when you didn't know it at all, it doesn't take that much to switch gears |
| 22:20.53 | g1powermac | unless you're trying to remember calculus that you haven't touched in 7 years. . . |
| 22:21.21 | g1powermac | that stuff just has an extremely high rate of degradation in memory |
| 22:22.14 | T0mW | I was once curious about Ajax and took a look at it. Then came away with the realization that if I started to do Ajax, then I would want to master it. Then I wouldn't have time to play with embedded stuff anymore because all I would be doing is breathing Ajax. |
| 22:22.54 | T0mW | g1powermac: yeah, tried once to recall what the arc sine was for. |
| 22:23.03 | g1powermac | thats the curse of specialization. . .in its full glory |
| 22:23.32 | g1powermac | would find some project to integrate Ajax and embedded stuff |
| 22:23.51 | T0mW | yeah, your brain get streamlined into thinking about problem solving in just one way. |
| 22:23.59 | g1powermac | like maybe some tablet linux system running a browser interface |
| 22:24.10 | T0mW | that might be cool |
| 22:24.50 | T0mW | I want to take something and install android on it. Just to see what the fuss is about and what is so different about the core system. |
| 22:24.51 | g1powermac | like this data mining stuff I'm looking at is actually part of a project that includes stuff from at least 10 different fields |
| 22:25.54 | T0mW | Well... You would not have to worry about a future job if you got good at it. You could work for any number of three-letter government agencies. |
| 22:26.08 | g1powermac | little bit too many different fields, especially since there's lots of stuff I need required information on, but either way it opens me to lots of new knowledge |
| 22:26.21 | T0mW | g1powermac: taking data from Facebook and mining out info for the TSA. |
| 22:26.24 | T0mW | heh |
| 22:26.25 | Mirell | Tonight is dinner and a DTrace book |
| 22:26.29 | g1powermac | hah |
| 22:26.31 | g1powermac | you know |
| 22:26.38 | g1powermac | I can see them doing that |
| 22:26.44 | T0mW | yupper |
| 22:27.04 | T0mW | just have to be careful what you type. |
| 22:27.22 | T0mW | heh, it gets mirrored |
| 22:28.06 | g1powermac | actually, looks like they already do: http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/01/31/001213/dhs-sends-tourists-home-over-twitter-jokes |
| 22:29.12 | T0mW | saw that, dummies. |
| 22:29.38 | T0mW | If you have no sense of humor, apply for a civil-service job. |
| 22:29.47 | g1powermac | yea |
| 22:33.20 | T0mW | hmm, was wondering where all the snow went to. It is vacationing in Europe. |
| 22:34.00 | g1powermac | heh, snow. . .we had near 70F temps today and yesterday. . . |
| 22:34.20 | g1powermac | had honey bees out. . .way, way to early for that around here |
| 22:35.06 | T0mW | It was high 40s here today. |
| 22:35.39 | T0mW | Pennsylvania |
| 22:35.50 | g1powermac | Kentucky here |
| 22:36.35 | T0mW | g1powermac: they have jobs in Kentucky? |
| 22:37.01 | T0mW | g1powermac: I thought it was all estates + horse boarding. |
| 22:37.15 | g1powermac | heh |
| 22:37.37 | g1powermac | is a co-owner of a family run business |
| 22:38.16 | g1powermac | (which could desperately use a good sales person or two at the moment) |
| 22:39.14 | g1powermac | we lost four employees in under a weeks time, two quit, two fired |
| 22:40.04 | Mirell | Not a good sign |
| 22:40.21 | g1powermac | we just can't find decent help who want to work retail |
| 22:40.42 | g1powermac | we even pay considerably above average too |
| 22:41.06 | Mirell | It's a tough business |
| 22:41.26 | g1powermac | yea |
| 22:42.00 | g1powermac | the ones that are always dependable are almost never looking for a new job, and thats the problem |
| 22:42.57 | g1powermac | so you either end up with newbies in their teens (which some are quite good, tough almost always temporary) or crazy psychotic ones that can't hold down a job for more than a year |
| 22:44.02 | T0mW | heh |
| 22:44.36 | g1powermac | the best ones are the crazy psychotic ones that quit saying how horrible the job was only to want their job back a few months later when they realized how good we really were. . . |
| 22:44.36 | T0mW | crazed due to the excessive drinking |
| 22:44.51 | g1powermac | drinking and drugs |
| 22:45.51 | g1powermac | we had a 50+ year old salesmen arrested for marijuana possession and driving under the influence |
| 22:46.47 | g1powermac | (and get this, we actually didn't fire the guy, he served his time and we allowed him back. . .yet they still complain. . .) |
| 22:48.09 | T0mW | My job ain't the greatest, but I'm grateful that I have a paycheck. |
| 22:49.44 | g1powermac | myeah, whether employee or employer, you still have your load of stuff you have to put up with |
| 22:50.17 | T0mW | seriously considering going out on 1099 to chase some of this work, there is some lucrative offerings out there, if you want to relocate. Even short-term. |
| 22:50.54 | g1powermac | (btw, that salesman was arrested due to the DUI, not us calling the cops on him ;-) |
| 22:51.36 | g1powermac | heh, we'd love to make all our employees 1099ers, but the gov't wouldn't like that ;-) |
| 22:51.45 | Mirell | Go Go IRS ruling |
| 22:51.54 | landley | T0mW: I want to get android running under qemu. |
| 22:52.16 | Mirell | landley: That's what the Android SDK uses, qemu |
| 22:52.46 | g1powermac | Mirell, yea, annoying IRS ;-) |
| 22:52.57 | landley | Mirell: I've heard that, but I've never gotten it set up properly. I should take another stab at it this weekend... |
| 22:54.07 | g1powermac | though seriously, the amount of taxes we pay is getting toward the ridiculous level |
| 22:55.54 | g1powermac | small businesses get hit the most. . .since there's no crazy loopholes like the big corps get |
| 23:07.43 | landley | g1powermac: actually the tax burden as a percentage of income is far lower than it was under clinton. |
| 23:07.51 | landley | It's just that the economy sucks, so we're making less. |
| 23:10.04 | g1powermac | meh |
| 23:10.09 | g1powermac | you haven't seen the local taxes |
| 23:10.31 | g1powermac | they tax our inventory and equipment as property tax |
| 23:10.59 | g1powermac | which is utterly insane for any company that tries to sell physical goods |
| 23:15.12 | g1powermac | (though it would be quite a tax haven for any service based company) |
| 23:22.24 | landley | g1powermac: Ah, if you're in europe: yeah, you're screwed. Sorry about that. |
| 23:22.37 | landley | Don't worry, the euro should implode in less than a decade, and then it'll be over modulo hungary being fascist. |
| 23:22.40 | landley | And possibly greece. |
| 23:22.45 | landley | Don't ask me about spain. |
| 23:23.19 | g1powermac | is in rural Kentucky. . . |
| 23:23.43 | landley | doesn't know anything about local taxes in kentucky. |
| 23:24.01 | landley | I think there's something about painting the grass blue, burboun, and mint juleps. |
| 23:24.08 | landley | Krylon, possibly. |
| 23:24.11 | g1powermac | don't need to, they're just need to know that they're crazy ;-) |
| 23:24.20 | g1powermac | hehe, yea |
| 23:24.29 | g1powermac | though more about the bourbon |
| 23:25.03 | g1powermac | (we have multiple distilleries in this county, the county makes lots of money off them via the property tax cause all that bourbon must sit there and age) |
| 23:25.30 | g1powermac | 7+ years of taxes on one barrel of bourbon adds up |
| 23:28.44 | g1powermac | though nice part with the taxes here is if you own a house, you pay really not much property tax on it |
| 23:29.04 | g1powermac | though they'll get you on your car(s) and telephone bills |
| 23:29.37 | g1powermac | but, if you have old cars and use prepaid cell phone, you can avoid that too |
| 23:30.11 | g1powermac | they only take 6% sales tax on the prepaid stuff |
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