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| 15:22.56 | landley | Mornigitudatiousness! |
| 15:23.02 | landley | And such. |
| 15:26.52 | florian | hi landley |
| 15:30.57 | av500 | gm |
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| 15:33.16 | kergoth` | morning guys |
| 15:33.20 | kergoth` | yawns |
| 15:36.04 | prpplague | throws donuts at kergoth` 's open mouth |
| 15:36.25 | av500 | snatches one out of the air |
| 15:36.31 | file | looks around |
| 15:36.57 | av500 | looks for file |
| 15:37.01 | av500 | file not found |
| 15:37.07 | kergoth` | bah, just got bit by the qemu 0.15.1->1.0 mips network issues landley mentioned on his blog |
| 15:37.07 | file | is hidden |
| 15:37.09 | kergoth` | mutters |
| 15:38.04 | prpplague | av500: you gonna make it to ELC? |
| 15:38.08 | av500 | nope |
| 15:38.15 | av500 | you did not send me a ticket |
| 15:38.22 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:38.38 | Mirell | kergoth`: He tends to find those things early |
| 15:38.38 | prpplague | av500: sorry the airlines don't take monopoly money |
| 15:39.26 | kergoth` | Mirell: yeah, being neck deep in it for aboriginal, I have no doubt |
| 15:41.15 | prpplague | everyone was sooo scared about the LHC when the real threat to humanity is the ancient aliens living at the bottom of lake vostok that are now free...... |
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| 15:42.34 | Mirell | THE SHEEPLES |
| 15:43.35 | av500 | määäääääh |
| 15:43.46 | av500 | (^ sound that sheep make in germany) |
| 15:44.46 | landley | florian: morning. |
| 15:45.34 | landley | kergoth: I need to set up my nightly regression test cron stuff again. I now have the ability to find these bugs automatically, I just... tend not to look at the output much. |
| 15:46.09 | landley | Mirell: today's xkcd is about the sheeples. |
| 15:46.10 | prpplague | av500: i overheard my two kids talking yesterday afternoon...... |
| 15:46.31 | prpplague | av500: not sure if i should be worried that i've really turned them in hardcore nerds |
| 15:46.33 | landley | kergoth: I'm actually spending more free time on toybox at the moment. Aboriginal's done-ish. |
| 15:46.51 | landley | It does what it set out to do. Needs more targets and periodic package upgrades, but otherwise... |
| 15:47.09 | av500 | \o/ for toybox |
| 15:47.22 | landley | There's stuff I _could_ do on aboriginal. Break out the tinycc preprocessor and write a distcc replacement that calls that, for example. |
| 15:47.54 | prpplague | av500: they were talking about a cartoon that had an alligator typing on a computer, and my son said "think he is using linux?", and my daughter said, "naw, he looks like a hardcore unix user......." |
| 15:48.00 | landley | But it all boils down to "gcc 4.2.2/binutils 2.18 and later are gplv3, and I'm never shipping that ever". PCC/LLVM/tcc/open64 aren't drop-in replacements yet... |
| 15:48.16 | landley | prpplague: she's right. |
| 15:48.20 | kergoth` | nods |
| 15:48.39 | landley | av500: didn't quite manage to get a release out this weekend. |
| 15:48.57 | landley | I found out that the id Tim Bird submitted is functionally equivalent to the toolbox one. |
| 15:49.01 | landley | I.E. noncompliant crap. |
| 15:49.18 | landley | (SUSv4 says what the output with no arguments should be. That's not what this thing is producing.) |
| 15:49.27 | av500 | landley: I still have to find time to setup toybox here and use it :) |
| 15:49.30 | landley | (That's not a "missing feature", that's implementing a noncompliant feature, which is a no-no.) |
| 15:49.45 | landley | Also, both sort and xargs segfaulted at various points when plugged into the aboriginal linux build. |
| 15:50.14 | landley | (Oddly, the build completed anyway successfully. But I harvested the bad sort data and confirmed it segfaults, and need to debug that.) |
| 15:50.33 | landley | Do wanna ship _broken_ commands. (I switched id to "default n", but sort and xargs need fixing.) |
| 15:50.49 | landley | Plus i want to finish the config2help conversion from python to C, since that's 2/3 done... |
| 15:51.13 | landley | I'm trying to get a toybox release out maybe tomorrow, so it's before this week's lwn. :) |
| 15:51.31 | av500 | ah, politics :) |
| 15:53.42 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:54.12 | prpplague | landley: not sure if i should be ashamed that my kids know about such at their age, hehe |
| 15:54.33 | Mirell | prpplague: I knew about BitNet at like six |
| 15:54.51 | prpplague | jokes with Mirell |
| 15:54.59 | prpplague | Mirell: yea but you are mal-adjusted.... |
| 15:55.05 | Mirell | This is true |
| 15:56.32 | prpplague | has way too much to do |
| 15:56.48 | Mirell | is still chugging through Erlang |
| 15:56.56 | Mirell | Pretty damn nifty language |
| 15:57.13 | Mirell | First real example program is implementing a simple TCP server in the book |
| 15:59.50 | prpplague | looks like i am doing my lcd presentation at ELC |
| 16:00.23 | av500 | the "what to do when the screen is black" one? |
| 16:00.42 | prpplague | av500: yea |
| 16:00.49 | prpplague | av500: with updates, and corrections, hehe |
| 16:02.02 | prpplague | i still can't believe i had been using that timing chart for years and never noticed the mistake on it, nor has anyone until then pointed it out |
| 16:03.18 | av500 | hiding bugs in plain sight... |
| 16:05.25 | prpplague | av500: going to rewatch the video of it this evening to make some more notes |
| 16:06.24 | av500 | prpplague: dont overdo it |
| 16:07.29 | prpplague | av500: yea, just want to add in the notes about why its called a porch, make sure i clearly define the frames on the diagram |
| 16:09.20 | prpplague | av500: i think i am going to do a Q&A session at the techincal showcase, bring an oscope and such to view some signals |
| 16:09.58 | prpplague | av500: additional feedback is welcome |
| 16:10.04 | prpplague | always want to do better |
| 16:12.39 | prpplague | needs coffee |
| 16:14.56 | prpplague | av500: oh, and i added a few comments to make it a little cleared as to what exactly lvds is and how the other standard use lvds |
| 16:16.14 | prpplague | av500: http://www.tomopop.com/who-is-hitoshi-mitani--23241.phtml |
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| 16:29.44 | prpplague | av500 / landley / Mirell : look here is a wonderful guide on how to communicate with me....... http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2012/02/how-to-stop-confusing-your-aspergers.html |
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| 19:05.53 | prpplague | landley: has there been any more BFP flaming? |
| 19:07.12 | landley | BFP? |
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| 19:07.25 | landley | British Fromage Party? |
| 19:07.35 | landley | Big F'in Parasol? |
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| 19:08.04 | landley | Does Amanda Palmer have any siblings? |
| 19:08.16 | landley | prpplague: I'm confused. |
| 19:08.40 | calculus | landley: Bruce P. |
| 19:08.45 | landley | Oh. |
| 19:08.51 | calculus | would be my guess |
| 19:08.52 | landley | Not that I'm aware of. |
| 19:09.33 | landley | I haven't been paying attention to that. I only really notice when I step in it somewhere I'd be anyway, like lwn or h-online. |
| 19:09.52 | landley | I don't exactly go seeking that lunacy out. |
| 19:17.21 | prpplague | landley: hehe, i was wondering if you'd get the initials, hehe |
| 19:17.43 | landley | prpplague: I did not. Mostly because I honestly don't think about that troll when I don't have to. |
| 19:17.57 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 19:18.11 | landley | I spent ~3 years being deeply squicked out, and then got over it. |
| 19:18.27 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 19:18.29 | landley | I refuse to let someone _defined_ by their irrelevance bother me. |
| 19:18.43 | landley | As with all trolls: they thrive on attention, and are nothing without it. |
| 19:18.50 | prpplague | landley: i want to talk to Tim about it at ELC and get an idea how he stands on it |
| 19:19.03 | landley | Um, which it? |
| 19:19.05 | landley | toybox? |
| 19:19.06 | landley | Bruce? |
| 19:19.08 | prpplague | landley: yea |
| 19:19.12 | prpplague | landley: toybox |
| 19:19.27 | landley | I probably won't make it to ELC this year. Looked into it and it's too expensive this late in the game. |
| 19:19.39 | prpplague | landley: doh |
| 19:19.58 | landley | I'd rather hunker down and code. :) |
| 19:20.41 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 19:20.58 | ohsix | who's BFP? |
| 19:21.14 | kergoth` | scroll up |
| 19:21.55 | ohsix | question restated |
| 19:22.20 | landley | Bruce Fsking Perens, "The Failure of Open Source". |
| 19:22.32 | ohsix | oic |
| 19:23.05 | landley | (Google "The Failure of Open Source" and he's the first hit. That fact makes me smile.) |
| 19:24.01 | landley | ohsix: I still hold a grudge over http://lwn.net/Articles/202106/ but no longer put any energy into it. |
| 19:24.27 | ohsix | ya i remember |
| 19:26.03 | landley | The equal-parts-sad-and-hilarious part is at the time he said http://lwn.net/Articles/202119/ and then he shows up in a thread about toybox over 5 years later. |
| 19:26.45 | landley | Only reason the project didn't have a 1.0 release long ago is I mothballed it for ~3 years due to not having a goal for the thing... |
| 19:27.30 | landley | prpplague: I'm pretty sure I could be available for a phone call any time during ELC, if that helps... |
| 19:28.08 | prpplague | landley: i'll keep that in mind |
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| 21:08.47 | landley | waves at ifelipe |
| 21:08.55 | landley | Or possibly lfelipe |
| 21:08.59 | landley | hard to tell in this font... |
| 21:09.08 | lfelipe | landley: hey :) |
| 21:09.37 | landley | How goes stuff? |
| 21:09.50 | lfelipe | will be taking a try at who later tonight |
| 21:09.57 | landley | Woot. |
| 21:10.06 | lfelipe | did you get a look at the git repo? is it workable with that hg-git script? |
| 21:10.07 | landley | I hope to get sort debugged, and then maybe tackle xargs. |
| 21:10.18 | landley | I didn't get a chance to look at it, sorry. |
| 21:10.56 | landley | If you could email the toybox list to remind me, that would be awesome. |
| 21:11.06 | lfelipe | what is the issue with sort? |
| 21:11.18 | lfelipe | is it known? I might get a look at that instead of who first |
| 21:14.54 | landley | ifelipe: I plugged toybox into the aboriginal linux build, and two commands segfaulted according to dmesg. |
| 21:15.31 | landley | The first was sort, which I tracked down the reproduction sequence for: a list of ~15 filenames gets catted into sort -uc and sort segfaults instead of producing output. |
| 21:15.37 | landley | Debugging that now. |
| 21:15.51 | landley | (That was in the middle of binutils' horrible libtool script.) |
| 21:15.53 | lfelipe | oh, cool |
| 21:15.57 | lfelipe | btw, didn't know aboriginal linux |
| 21:15.58 | landley | For a definition of "now" that means "when I get home". |
| 21:16.04 | kergoth` | tries building aboriginal for versatile express, armv7l, cortex-a9 |
| 21:16.09 | landley | http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html |
| 21:16.18 | lfelipe | seems really useful, I was thinking of setting something like that (but manually) to help test kmod |
| 21:16.30 | landley | kergoth: I don't have an armv7l toolchain. It's a distinct lack. |
| 21:16.47 | lfelipe | landley: will any 15 strings crash sort? |
| 21:16.49 | kergoth` | apparently the vexpress emulation supports >256 megs of ram |
| 21:16.51 | landley | I'd need to upgrade to gcc 4.3 and binutils 2.18 to get it, and those are both gplv3. |
| 21:16.52 | lfelipe | or are there specific ones that cause that |
| 21:16.55 | kergoth` | bah |
| 21:16.56 | kergoth` | that sucks |
| 21:16.59 | kergoth` | stupid gplv3 |
| 21:17.03 | kergoth` | glares at fsf |
| 21:17.10 | landley | kergoth: I can at least double the versatile board's memory emulation, just haven't gotten around to it yet. |
| 21:17.34 | kergoth` | wonder how llvm's arm support is nowadays |
| 21:17.37 | landley | (Problem is I/O memory starts right after that 256 meg chunk. I've got at least a gig of virtual address space with no problems, probably 2.) |
| 21:17.54 | landley | kergoth: llvm, pcc, or open64. Any would be interesting... if they built the linux kernel. |
| 21:18.26 | landley | ifelipe: it's a specific set of strings. |
| 21:18.58 | lfelipe | well, if you don't have time later today send them my way and I'll take a look at that |
| 21:19.03 | landley | Oh hang on, was that it? |
| 21:19.12 | landley | Actually I may have just found the bug, if so it was a recent regression. :) |
| 21:19.19 | landley | Which makes sense, since this _was_ working. |
| 21:19.24 | lfelipe | I'm finishing some work stuff now, should start messing around with toybox in one hour or two |
| 21:19.24 | prpplague | landley: i'm going to meet with tim on friday for a few minutes to discuss toybox, i'll give you a call if anything important comes up, but i think we just want to get things organized on statements |
| 21:19.40 | landley | When I added -x support (hexadecimal numerical compares), I accidentally did a ||FLAG_x instead of an |FLAG_x. |
| 21:19.44 | landley | That could have bad side effects. :) |
| 21:19.54 | landley | prpplague: woot. |
| 21:38.47 | landley | lfelipe: I should write up a series of general strategy things about what I'm trying to do with the android self-hosting project. |
| 21:39.16 | landley | I ranted about it on the list at some length this weekend, but it's way tl;dr I expect. :) |
| 21:41.34 | lfelipe | landley: hmm, haven't seen that yet |
| 21:41.50 | lfelipe | will read the stuff on the mailing list, not sure I was already subscribed though |
| 22:17.19 | kergoth` | hmm, http://ellcc.org/index.html - wonder if that actually works |
| 22:26.01 | kergoth` | landley: do you happen to know why configure scripts are so horribly slow under qemu? is it the I/O performance? |
| 22:26.33 | landley | kergoth: no, it's due to the way qemu works. |
| 22:26.33 | lfelipe | landley: updated the git repository, I'm not using hg-git |
| 22:26.43 | landley | qemu isn't an emulator, it's a dynamic translator. |
| 22:26.52 | lfelipe | the other script was targeted at one-time-only import, not to keep updating stuff |
| 22:26.59 | landley | You can think of it as a CPU with a ~16 meg l2 cache and a very high page fault latency from DRAM. |
| 22:27.37 | landley | Every time it faults in a page of executable code, it has to translate it to native code. It can then run code out of the translated page as long as it stays in cache, unless it's self-modifying code in which case it has to modify the target code and re-translate the page. |
| 22:28.19 | landley | This means you have bad startup latency, but then once that's worked through it runs reasonably well. A bit like a java jit, or the old translation stuff MacOS 7 used to do to run m68k code on powerpc. (That's why the patents have expired. :) |
| 22:28.45 | kergoth` | ahh, makes sense, thanks |
| 22:28.50 | landley | The problem with ./configure is it keeps launching executables, running them, having them exit, and zeroing out their pages. |
| 22:29.04 | landley | What I _did_ do was statically link busybox, which sped ./configure up by around 20%. |
| 22:29.18 | landley | Because dynamic linking counts as self-modifying code, forcing qemu to retranslate executable code pages. :) |
| 22:29.38 | landley | The bigger problem with ./configure is that it doesn't take advantage of SMP even on fully native hardware. |
| 22:30.04 | kergoth` | if only fewer projects used autoconf :) |
| 22:30.07 | landley | The BIGGER problem with ./configure is that 99% of the tests it's doing are COMPLETELY STUPID, and it often tests the same thing three times even when the test is "do we have a header required by the C99 spec?" |
| 22:30.34 | landley | If you're going to test "is our build environment not even compliant with the C spec, let along posix"... give it up. |
| 22:30.36 | kergoth` | I don't see why they aren't all opt-in. If I'm not going to use the define the damn thing emits, I don't need it to run that test |
| 22:30.44 | landley | Let the build break or the program be faulty,and require people to FIX THEIR BUILD ENVIRONMENT... |
| 22:31.01 | landley | I have a rant in my blog about how configure, make, and install have all outlived their usefulness. |
| 22:31.05 | landley | I should dig it up sometime... |
| 22:31.33 | landley | ifelipe: did you email a link to the git repo to the toybox list? If so, I'll look at it when I get home. |
| 22:31.37 | landley | (Can't read my home email from work.) |
| 22:37.38 | lfelipe | landley: yep, it's the same url |
| 22:37.55 | lfelipe | I just made a commit there (silencing one unused-but-set variable warning) |
| 22:38.02 | lfelipe | to try out the interaction with hg |
| 22:38.41 | lfelipe | landley: btw, lfelipe is short for luis felipe (my irc client does not highlight ifelipe :P) |
| 22:47.16 | slashbeast | configure tests are stupid and sometimes not working. |
| 22:48.10 | slashbeast | I wonder if there is something what sucks less than autoconf |
| 22:48.47 | lfelipe | slashbeast: cmake has proved to be qute nice in our usage so far |
| 22:49.02 | lfelipe | the webkit-efl port uses it, and other ports are switching to it as well |
| 23:11.10 | landley | We need a "replace configure/make/install" project the same way git/hg replaced cvs and svn. |
| 23:11.29 | landley | Unfortunately my plate's full... |
| 23:11.43 | landley | is reading the bionic library source. |
| 23:12.33 | landley | Whoever created gensyscalls.py, I want to punch them in the mouth. |
| 23:13.40 | landley | They desperately, desperately, desperately need an arch-generic. |
| 23:13.41 | landley | Sigh. |
| 23:14.15 | landley | Why did Google have to screw up its interview process so badly that they spent 7 months ending with "and now start over from scratch"? |
| 23:14.24 | landley | They NEED somebody to go in and fix this stuff. GRRRRR.... |
| 23:15.07 | roxfan | you applied to google? |
| 23:16.30 | mnemoc | dublin again? |
| 23:16.47 | landley | roxfan: a couple years ago. |
| 23:16.50 | landley | There was no "again". |
| 23:16.56 | landley | This is me lamenting it went so badly the first time. |
| 23:17.12 | roxfan | maybe they fixed it by now? |
| 23:17.23 | landley | (The google recruiters who've called me since have been confused. "You passed the technical committee... but you're not working for us?") |
| 23:17.24 | roxfan | (probably not) |
| 23:17.31 | landley | (Apparently that does not compute for them...) |
| 23:17.37 | roxfan | heh |
| 23:17.38 | landley | Bionic's what, 5 years old? |
| 23:18.20 | landley | And they still haven't implemented support for a third architecture, or the ability to have a user other than root? |
| 23:25.16 | roxfan | i think there are mips and SuperH ports, but not by google |