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| 19:33.14 | calculus | landley: just a heads up, you may need some patching for e2fsprogs-1.42 building against uclibc (it tries to call/link fallocate which uclibc does not have) |
| 19:33.47 | calculus | (1.42 is used in the newer lfs docs) |
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| 21:47.02 | landley | calculus: I've added functions to uClibc before, I can do so again. :) |
| 21:47.15 | landley | Apparently musl may relicense to something android can use, though. That would be marvelous... |
| 22:03.17 | landley | Nope, just checked on #musl and apparently I was misinformed. |
| 22:03.39 | landley | Anyone who refuses to go along with GPLv3 is apparently an "idiot". Proud to be in that camp, I suppose... |
| 22:03.59 | roxfan | heh |
| 22:04.18 | landley | I should call my podcast "stupid question time". |
| 22:04.55 | landley | has a "podiatry" directory full of todo notes, pondering supplementing The Blog Nobody Reads with The Podcast Nobody Listens To... |
| 22:05.10 | ohsix | not a lot of people see android as an opportunity |
| 22:05.20 | roxfan | i never listen to podcasts |
| 22:05.21 | landley | I see smartphones as an opportunity. |
| 22:05.40 | landley | I see android as the best channel open source has to get preinstalled on smartphones in a least-mangled manner. |
| 22:06.02 | landley | And a _lot_ of people see smartphones as an opportunity, there's a whole app industry gold rush. |
| 22:06.33 | landley | ohsix: I think what you mean is not a lot of _free_software_ people see android as an opportunity. |
| 22:06.55 | landley | Keep in mind the FSF was a reaction _against_ the Apple vs Franklin decision in 1983 that extended copyright to binaries. |
| 22:06.59 | ohsix | well that was what you were referring to, with gplv3 |
| 22:07.15 | landley | The FSF started out as a conservative reactionary movement attempting to cling to a glorious past. |
| 22:07.38 | ohsix | the more standard whatever android ships the better for everyone, presuming it can be completely standard; that's infrastructure that didn't come out of nowhere |
| 22:07.40 | landley | They couldn't preserve ITS because the PDP-10 hardware it was tied to got end of lifed, so they tried to preserve open unix as the next best thing. |
| 22:07.49 | landley | Open unix was about 15 years old by that point. |
| 22:08.05 | alex4nder | jesus |
| 22:08.17 | alex4nder | do you just have a macro to dump this out? |
| 22:08.27 | roxfan | what's ITS? |
| 22:08.32 | landley | alex4nder: http://landley.net/history/mirror |
| 22:08.41 | alex4nder | is that a yes or a no? |
| 22:08.43 | landley | Computer history is a hobby of mine, and I type fast. :) |
| 22:08.55 | landley | I already covered this in The Blog That Nobody Reads, by the way... |
| 22:09.02 | MonMotha | prpplague: ping |
| 22:09.14 | roxfan | yeah, too bad nobody read it :) |
| 22:09.21 | prpplague | MonMotha: pong |
| 22:09.34 | MonMotha | prpplague: suggestion: flyswatter could use a TTL UART option |
| 22:09.49 | prpplague | hehe |
| 22:09.54 | landley | http://landley.net/notes-2010.html#17-07-2010 |
| 22:09.57 | landley | And the following to days. |
| 22:09.58 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea i wanted one for the flyswatter2 |
| 22:10.07 | landley | roxfan: Incompatible Timesharing System. Yes really. |
| 22:10.16 | roxfan | nice name |
| 22:10.19 | prpplague | MonMotha: but you can actually use the jtag port on the f2 as a ttl uart if you want |
| 22:10.31 | landley | DEC had CTS (the "Compatible Timesharing System"), and the MIT guys wrote their own from scratch in assembly language for the same hardware, so... |
| 22:10.31 | MonMotha | prpplague: RS-232 is nice and all, but I suspect that I'm more likely to encounter TTL level UART interfaces when working on things that the flyswatter talks to |
| 22:10.38 | MonMotha | prpplague: well, I'd like to be able to have JTAG + UART |
| 22:10.50 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea |
| 22:10.51 | landley | That's covered in Steven Levy's book "Hackers", which is pretty nice for what it does. |
| 22:11.04 | landley | (It views the world through a smallish lens, but covers a lot of detail in its area.) |
| 22:11.06 | prpplague | MonMotha: i wanted to do ttl for f2, but got negative feed back |
| 22:11.17 | MonMotha | I know there's some sort of JTAG based "console stream" option, but it's hard to screw up a UART |
| 22:11.35 | MonMotha | prpplague: it would have been neat to have e.g. a switch for TTL or RS-232 (even on different connectors) |
| 22:11.36 | landley | Basically if you take that book, and read "Accidental Empires" by Robert Cringely, and then read the Ken Olsen interview from the smithsonian website, you get a reasonable picture of the whole thing. |
| 22:11.40 | MonMotha | no need for both at the same time |
| 22:11.51 | ohsix | i don't expect people to compromise their principles to take advantage of android, but they are missing an opportunity :] |
| 22:12.52 | landley | ohsix: missing a giant obvious opportunity is a registered trademark of the free software foundation. |
| 22:13.10 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea |
| 22:13.19 | prpplague | MonMotha: i'll talk to rusty about it |
| 22:13.22 | MonMotha | prpplague: just a thought :) |
| 22:13.25 | landley | P.S. Mirror of the ken olsen interview, which is _marvelous_: http://landley.net/history/mirror/interviews/olsen.html |
| 22:13.33 | prpplague | yea like i said, i wanted ttl |
| 22:13.35 | landley | (That's the guy who created Digital Equipment Corporation.) |
| 22:13.43 | prpplague | but we had to make a few decisions on getting it out the door |
| 22:13.46 | MonMotha | prpplague: the device works great, otherwise |
| 22:13.56 | prpplague | MonMotha: you using f2? |
| 22:14.01 | prpplague | or just f1? |
| 22:14.08 | MonMotha | prpplague: I had to hack up OpenOCD to support my CPU, but that's OpenOCD's problem |
| 22:14.10 | MonMotha | prpplague: f2 |
| 22:14.28 | MonMotha | it works WAAAAY better than the old Olimex stuff I was using back in 2008 |
| 22:14.44 | landley | MonMotha: is there documentation on hacking up openocd to support various things? |
| 22:14.55 | MonMotha | though some of that may be openocd being better |
| 22:14.58 | landley | has interest, but not expertise, in that area. |
| 22:15.08 | MonMotha | landley: not really, and their patch submission process is kinda complex |
| 22:15.12 | MonMotha | I haven't even tried to upstream this |
| 22:15.39 | MonMotha | I took the Kinetis target from taking almost 5 minutes to program the chip to taking about 5 seconds |
| 22:15.43 | prpplague | MonMotha: dandy |
| 22:15.52 | prpplague | MonMotha: you need to hook up with wmat about openocd |
| 22:16.04 | prpplague | MonMotha: tct is looking to sponsor some docs for openocd |
| 22:16.11 | roxfan | https://github.com/hikob/openocd/blob/master/HACKING |
| 22:16.16 | MonMotha | prpplague: oh, well, I could be interested |
| 22:16.35 | MonMotha | yeah, there's a HACKING doc, but it mostly describes their workflow, not the organization of the codebase, IIRC |
| 22:16.56 | MonMotha | they somewhat recently changed their patch workflow. It's not bad, just seems a bit needlessly complex and rigid for a project of the size it is |
| 22:17.13 | MonMotha | (it's actually quite a GOOD workflow) |
| 22:17.42 | MonMotha | prpplague: btw, if you ever need to use the Freescale Kinetis line, a) run, b) let me know :) |
| 22:17.54 | prpplague | hhe |
| 22:17.55 | prpplague | hehe |
| 22:18.11 | MonMotha | that chip suffers from serious NIH and design by committees (note the plural) |
| 22:18.19 | prpplague | hehe |
| 22:20.43 | MonMotha | I spent about 4 hours banging my head against the flash controller on it |
| 22:21.16 | MonMotha | gogo big endian register file hooked up to a little endian CPU |
| 22:21.22 | alex4nder | laf |
| 22:21.43 | MonMotha | some old school Motorola person must have been responsible for that one |
| 22:22.02 | MonMotha | "By golly, Motorola makes BIG ENDIAN stuff, and I'm not going to change just because everything else on this chip is little." |
| 22:22.24 | alex4nder | that's nuts. |
| 22:34.39 | roxfan | afaik renesas made some chip with ARM core and reused peripherals from all the superh line |
| 22:34.47 | roxfan | i wonder if they're also big endian |
| 22:56.00 | MonMotha | some of the peripherals on this thing are re-used from old Freescale designs, but they seem to have mostly corrected the endian-ness (or just used things from the HC08 where it doesn't matter) |
| 22:56.17 | MonMotha | but there's a ton of things like "if the foo is in bar mode, then writes to the baz register will be ignored" |
| 22:56.21 | MonMotha | and bar is the default |
| 22:56.33 | MonMotha | so if you want to set baz, make sure you take foo out of bar mode first |
| 22:56.51 | MonMotha | there's also a bunch of wonky no-op and lock flags |
| 22:58.11 | MonMotha | oh, and address 0x400 in flash is special. Don't you dare put code there. You could easily brick the chip. |
| 22:58.29 | MonMotha | well, 0x400-0x410 |
| 22:58.38 | MonMotha | (and yes, I do mean brick the chip - like you can't even JTAG it anymore) |
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| 22:59.02 | roxfan | code read protection mark? |
| 22:59.24 | MonMotha | roxfan: it's the "flash configuration word" which, among other things, allows you to lock the chip and disable mass erase |
| 23:00.08 | MonMotha | and given that you presumably accidentally did this in this hypothetical scenario, you probably don't have useful code on there to fix the situation |
| 23:01.37 | MonMotha | fortunately, if you've just got the area filled with 0x00 or 0xFF (a common default), mass erase is enabled (the chip is locked, but you can recover) |
| 23:02.19 | roxfan | nxp used one dword for locking |
| 23:02.28 | roxfan | and it has to be a specific magic |
| 23:02.40 | MonMotha | I prefer that sort of thing to be kept out of band |
| 23:02.58 | MonMotha | dedicated flash/EEPROM register that can only be written by special flash instructions |
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