| 00:51.17 | *** join/#edev djerome (~djerome@ip68-2-20-108.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 01:22.16 | *** join/#edev bizhanMona (~bizhan@nat/cisco/x-btrklxifrbmxmnxw) |
| 02:08.00 | *** join/#edev sunrunner20 (~jamesdoe@pool-71-123-139-70.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 02:08.45 | sunrunner20 | soo, Just finished photographing all(I think) the reels of components I have |
| 02:09.12 | sunrunner20 | All that is left is inserting into a spreadsheet |
| 05:01.31 | *** join/#edev djerome (~djerome@ip68-2-20-108.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 05:42.54 | *** join/#edev JoeLlama (~snork@unaffiliated/joellama) |
| 06:07.33 | *** join/#edev clio (~andrej@85.159.109.222) |
| 06:24.34 | *** join/#edev amarsman (~marsman@90-145-17-249.wxdsl.nl) |
| 06:25.00 | *** join/#edev calculus (~calculus@adsl-99-30-228-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 06:25.01 | *** join/#edev calculus (~calculus@gentoo/user/calculus) |
| 07:22.16 | *** join/#edev bizhanMona (~bizhan@nat/cisco/x-mrvwgrqazwnxvdak) |
| 07:22.27 | *** join/#edev sterNiX (strnx@unaffiliated/nu253r/x-0655220) |
| 07:48.01 | keesj | landley: for completness there are several javascript tools that run on a host like nodejs. Ruby is a lovely language that "gives love an joy in programming" but IMHO is not defines well enough to serve as language. scala is nice but one should then first learn Java. |
| 07:50.21 | keesj | I guess the real problem is to answer in what environemnt you want the people to develop and learn. For the web you could to Ruby |
| 07:51.11 | keesj | for mobile reall either Java (for android development) or Learn Them Qt development . the Qt libraries are quite good and will not give you all the normal hassle that come with c++ development |
| 07:51.24 | keesj | it's also very well documented |
| 07:57.25 | keesj | The last time i looked a python I considered it broken (no real proper threading support) |
| 08:41.01 | *** join/#edev florian (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 09:56.16 | slashbeast | landley: by any chance you had time to look into mdadm issue? |
| 10:09.13 | *** join/#edev risca (~risca@wi-secure-2252.cc.umanitoba.ca) |
| 10:58.01 | *** join/#edev g1powermac (~g1powerma@rrcs-173-197-150-24.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 10:58.01 | *** join/#edev g1powermac (~g1powerma@unaffiliated/g1powermac) |
| 12:37.23 | *** join/#edev strnx (strnx@174.127.80.146) |
| 13:06.33 | *** join/#edev __av500__ (~av500@pd95bf55a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:10.14 | *** join/#edev sunrunner20 (~jamesdoe@pool-71-123-139-70.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 13:22.16 | *** join/#edev bizhanMona (~bizhan@nat/cisco/x-sjpvrhhcjhushfcy) |
| 13:35.49 | *** join/#edev risca (~risca@wi-secure-2252.cc.umanitoba.ca) |
| 13:50.54 | *** join/#edev GPSFan (~kenm@64.92.145.112) |
| 13:50.54 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 14:34.03 | *** join/#edev Zygo (startkeylo@startkeylogger.hungrycats.org) |
| 14:41.47 | *** join/#edev sterNiX (strnx@unaffiliated/nu253r/x-0655220) |
| 15:05.57 | *** join/#edev sndcrb (~sndcrb@dsl-hkibrasgw2-fef8de00-126.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 15:06.10 | landley | slashbeast: nope, sorry. |
| 15:06.24 | landley | I'm trying to get a release out this weekend, and that's a blocking issue for the release, so it's near the top of my TODO list. |
| 15:06.41 | landley | But my server changed IP addresses and I just got the new one in my netbook this morning. |
| 15:12.34 | *** join/#edev VtS (~vts@194-166-248-56.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 15:44.25 | landley | keesj: I'm trying to put together an "intro to programming" in general, for people who haven't done it before. |
| 15:44.51 | landley | I started on a commodore 64 in BASIC then assembly, where everything there was to learn about the box was self-contained, reasonably obvious, and you'd go through it in a year. |
| 15:45.31 | landley | Modern systems just getting the tools _to_ program them is a giant production, and then there's a month of learning before you understand the concepts behind a GUI "hello world". |
| 15:46.35 | landley | Understanding modern systems has buckets of circular prerequisites, leading to massive sequencing issues trying to explain it all. |
| 15:47.37 | landley | I actually think I need to start with shell programming, then do C. |
| 15:48.01 | landley | Because C is how you understand what the hardware is doing, but makefiles are full of shell programming so you need to know that to build anything nontrivial anyway. |
| 15:49.11 | landley | And then after that I want to jump up to a modern scripting language with garbage collection and dynamic typing and so on, and that's where "overwhelmed with options" resurfaces... |
| 15:49.37 | landley | Actually, "shell", then "C", then "linux from scratch" and a detour into system administration... |
| 15:50.54 | landley | Then Ruby and/or Javascript. |
| 15:52.05 | landley | At some point a proper cirriculum probably needs a "donald duck forcing his nephews to smoke a whole box of cigars" moment with Perl and C++, some really _nasty_ examples of both to show how bad it can get... |
| 15:52.19 | landley | I'm torn between letting them make up their own minds and going "here there be godzillas". |
| 15:52.29 | landley | cthulus, really. |
| 16:01.42 | *** join/#edev prpplague (~danders@192.91.66.189) |
| 16:08.04 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 16:39.34 | *** join/#edev War2 (~war2@unaffiliated/war2) |
| 17:00.47 | *** join/#edev risca (~risca@wi-secure-2901.cc.umanitoba.ca) |
| 17:03.59 | *** join/#edev florian (~fuchs@Maemo/community/contributor/florian) |
| 17:57.59 | keesj | landley: I think 90% of the developers out there don't have a clue about shell programming or c programming and that modern languares have made this possible (I don't think it is a good thing) but you can become a professional programmer by learning design patterns and programming one of these languages. 10% of the people and probably 100% of the people in this chat need to know about low-level stuff. For the rest of the people it might |
| 18:00.37 | keesj | I am afraid it will pull them off and I also thing it's probably why there are not that many women in programming. We focus on the hard skills but the softer skills are also very important. |
| 18:13.27 | madsy | Sounds like appealing to work/effort to me :) |
| 18:13.54 | madsy | Some things are truly hard, but no one makes it deliberately so |
| 18:18.09 | keesj | what do you mean? |
| 18:22.38 | madsy | We like to think that an introduction to programming needs all kinds of intricate hardware details and such, because that is what we're used to |
| 18:23.42 | madsy | While it's perfectly possible to become a decent programmer within a specific context or environment, like the Java VM, or Python. Or Javascript. |
| 18:25.30 | madsy | Tools became better with time in the way that rote learning and computation gets pushed over to the tools, while programmers can focus more on thinking about the intention with the program. |
| 18:26.19 | alex4nder | I love lamp. |
| 18:28.17 | madsy | That some concept, craft or field has been difficult/complex across the board in the beginning, doesn't mean that it's a point that it should stay that way. |
| 18:29.23 | madsy | Many problem domains in programming doesn't require you to know what a L1 cache is for example. It's useless knowledge unless you really need to work at that level. |
| 18:39.50 | calculus | agreed, most java programmers don't even need to see a makefile or shell, just some ant or maven xml |
| 18:42.59 | calculus | also, once you know one language moving to another is not that difficult, same concepts apply (e.g. data structures and algorithms) just different syntax and sometimes different style (e.g. declarative vs functional) |
| 18:58.06 | sunrunner20 | execpt objective c |
| 18:58.08 | sunrunner20 | >_> |
| 18:58.42 | keesj | The real trouble starts when abstractions start to fail |
| 19:04.35 | calculus | just came across this: http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.%20Linux%20on%208bit |
| 19:07.32 | keesj | LOL uARM is certainly no speed demon. It takes about 2 hours to boot to bash prompt |
| 19:13.34 | keesj | landley: arduino is of course also very nice because of the great/fun results and the link with hardware,creativity and simplicity |
| 19:22.17 | *** join/#edev bizhanMona (~bizhan@nat/cisco/x-zakcuxptmdxvbnxb) |
| 19:22.54 | sunrunner20 | AND, box one is cataloged |
| 19:22.56 | sunrunner20 | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArqBcVs-9jscdHZPemdzTm90cnV2ekdaSTVtWnRZQ0E |
| 19:23.03 | prpplague | GPSFan: ping |
| 19:26.13 | prpplague | calculus: yea, i post on av500 's g+ wondering if the next step would be to actually do that on a cortex-m3, which would remove the need for emulation and add higher clock speed |
| 19:33.44 | sunrunner20 | and directory of images: http://www.brainspore.net/parts/ |
| 19:35.34 | GPSFan | prpplague, pong |
| 19:36.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: an item of fun you might grab for hacking - http://elinux.org/Das_Oszi |
| 19:38.08 | GPSFan | prpplague, yeah, I've been wanting one of those for a while, but as long as my Tek 465 keeps on working... |
| 19:38.44 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea, i'm interested in getting it updated with mainline linux |
| 19:38.51 | prpplague | GPSFan: it's running 2.6.13 from 2005 |
| 19:39.54 | GPSFan | prpplague, I read through the wiki and went out and read some of the blog posts about it. very nice. |
| 19:40.13 | prpplague | GPSFan: figured you'd be interested in it |
| 19:40.14 | GPSFan | it's a 2440 is it not? |
| 19:40.17 | prpplague | yea |
| 19:40.30 | GPSFan | HammerScope |
| 19:41.23 | GPSFan | prpplague, when I win the lottery next month I'll grab one... ;>)) |
| 19:41.40 | prpplague | you mean on friday? |
| 19:42.03 | GPSFan | sure, fri, next month, whenever... |
| 19:42.30 | prpplague | hehe |
| 19:42.41 | prpplague | assumes GPSFan hasn't been watching the news.... |
| 19:42.44 | prpplague | GPSFan: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/mega_millions_jackpot_for_frid.html |
| 19:42.58 | GPSFan | I see... |
| 19:43.09 | GPSFan | prpwhich model do you have? |
| 19:43.28 | prpplague | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-60Mhz-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-/220906916160?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item336f140940 |
| 19:49.56 | GPSFan | prpplague, I'd probably get the 100MHz one. |
| 19:50.20 | prpplague | GPSFan: hehe, only difference is the firmware |
| 19:51.03 | *** join/#edev risca (~risca@wi-secure-4931.cc.umanitoba.ca) |
| 19:52.16 | GPSFan | prpplague, so you have yours at 200MHz bw? I read about the 100-->200 firmware update. does that hold for 60-->200 ? |
| 19:52.31 | prpplague | GPSFan: so far yes, i have to do more testing |
| 19:52.38 | GPSFan | coool |
| 19:52.49 | prpplague | GPSFan: i'll know more at the end of next week, assuming i have weekend time |
| 19:53.07 | GPSFan | wonders what weekends are. |
| 20:02.31 | mnemoc | the days kids don't go to school |
| 21:13.34 | *** join/#edev ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) |
| 21:40.01 | calculus | Mirell: ping, do you want to meet up tonight? |
| 22:28.46 | sunrunner20 | so, anybody looked at the part list yet? |
| 22:29.09 | sunrunner20 | there are 3 more boxes |