| 00:12.12 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 00:27.21 | sunrunner20 | hows your week so far prpplague? |
| 00:27.38 | prpplague | rough |
| 00:27.45 | prpplague | been working on too many things |
| 00:29.35 | sunrunner20 | not sure if I wish I had that problem or not |
| 00:29.43 | sunrunner20 | I spent the day cold calling local computer shops |
| 00:30.10 | sunrunner20 | and putting the list of parts in an excel sheet |
| 00:30.57 | prpplague | understood |
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| 02:51.20 | sunrunner20 | Well, thats just WONDERFULL |
| 02:51.35 | sunrunner20 | I've got a rouge AP at my house |
| 02:52.00 | sunrunner20 | or evil twin depending on your terminology |
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| 04:41.11 | MonMotha | mostly OT, anyone know a good "getting started" guide for Asterisk just for use in a typical office type environment (not hacking on it)? |
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| 09:06.54 | roxfan | http://i.imgur.com/dM5ed.png |
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| 09:32.44 | florian | roxfan: heh... did you look at the website this mail is about? :-) |
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| 09:59.19 | Mephisto__ | Hello guys! I've compiled a 3.0.26 kernel for ARCH=arm and when I emualte it through qemu, I get a black screen, any help? |
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| 15:39.09 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: hows tricks? |
| 15:40.50 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: good |
| 15:41.45 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i have come to a realization that when i don't have a bunch of stuff to do, i get bored and therefor take on way too many projects. once i have too many projects i get stressed out, cutting back on them until i get bored again :( |
| 15:43.18 | CosmicPenguin | Heh |
| 15:43.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and the pandaboard newbie/hobbyist community is driving me nuts |
| 15:43.46 | prpplague | is kind of frustrated with it |
| 15:44.04 | CosmicPenguin | Thats the challenge of open source projects |
| 15:44.32 | CosmicPenguin | Apparently open means everybody.... doh |
| 15:45.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: indeed |
| 15:45.59 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: the main issue seems to be people don't understand the "mission" of pandaboard |
| 15:49.38 | CosmicPenguin | I remember when they first put the OLPC on sale - the discorse on the mailing lists went WAY down after that |
| 15:52.03 | kergoth | prpplague: that's common with a lot of projects, and that's a big part of hte job of the person or team guiding it, to make sure there's a coherent direction/mission and everyone understands what it is, and blocks contributions that deviate from that |
| 15:52.10 | kergoth | so it seems, anyway |
| 15:53.31 | CosmicPenguin | With something as popular as pandaboard, it can be a challenge to seperate the wheat from the chaff |
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| 16:13.30 | CosmicPenguin | I miss the community |
| 16:14.54 | av500 | prpplague: I blame TI for advertising panda as the cureall for cancer |
| 16:14.58 | av500 | same as r-pi |
| 16:15.49 | CosmicPenguin | Which is of course silly - we all know the beaglebone is the cureall for cancer |
| 16:15.55 | av500 | indeed |
| 16:17.45 | kergoth | hehe |
| 16:45.12 | landley | Mephisto__ still around? |
| 16:45.14 | landley | Of course not... |
| 16:47.15 | landley | prpplague: what _is_ the "mission" of pandaboard. |
| 16:47.29 | landley | feels some sort of quoting should be around the word pandaboard in that sentence, just to maintain the rythm... |
| 16:48.13 | landley | CosmicPenguin: I want to start some sort of "so you've never done embedded development before" tutorial thing. |
| 16:48.20 | landley | Possibly in the kahn academy style, not sure yet. |
| 16:49.53 | landley | To me the obvious thing to use would be qemu, but I'd need real hardware too just to get the shiny "ah-ha!" moment of "my code is running on the hardware!". |
| 16:49.58 | landley | (It's all about the shiny.) |
| 16:50.26 | landley | Unfortunately the obvious hardware to use is raspberry pi (which appears to be the successor to the nail board), but I'm told it _sold_out_ before shipping. |
| 16:50.35 | landley | Which is kinda nuts because why are they doing a single limited production run...? |
| 16:50.40 | landley | is working with incomplete information here... |
| 16:51.22 | landley | CosmicPenguin: the problem with educational communities is graduation. They learn, then they leave. |
| 16:51.53 | landley | The _faculty_ can form its' own community, but then you get an "us vs them" in-group vibe excluding the students. |
| 16:51.58 | av500 | landley: they are not |
| 16:52.14 | landley | av500: then how can it be "sold out"? |
| 16:52.15 | av500 | not doing a single run |
| 16:52.26 | av500 | landley: well, 100k people want it |
| 16:52.29 | landley | (Which I got from a Greg KH interview lwn.net linked to a few days ago, so it could easily be wrong.) |
| 16:52.30 | av500 | and the 1st batch is 10k |
| 16:52.33 | landley | Ah. |
| 16:52.45 | av500 | and the 1st batch is not even delivered from china |
| 16:52.57 | av500 | they are victims of their own hype |
| 16:53.03 | landley | SO they're just hugely backlogged, and will disappoint a lot of people when they rediscover that "cost of parts" != "cost of product". |
| 16:53.03 | av500 | like panda was when it launched |
| 16:53.12 | av500 | no |
| 16:53.23 | av500 | the price will stay at $35 + tax+ ship |
| 16:53.31 | landley | av500: was it one of those "preorders pay for the thing"? |
| 16:53.35 | av500 | no |
| 16:53.36 | landley | I forget, did they do a kickstarter... |
| 16:53.41 | av500 | no |
| 16:53.50 | av500 | no idea who finances the 1st batch |
| 16:54.12 | av500 | they will "disappoint a lot of people when they discover" than an arm11 is good for shit |
| 16:54.31 | av500 | coz people think they are buying A COMPUTER |
| 16:54.35 | landley | IN theory this was the sort of thing small business loans were for before the banking system became exclusively for rich people and chamber of commerce turned into a lobbying organization. |
| 16:54.42 | landley | misses the small business administration. |
| 16:55.05 | landley | av500: eh, armv6 is fine. |
| 16:55.15 | landley | It's the amount of memory I"d be more worried about. 256 megs was it? |
| 16:55.18 | av500 | for a 2012 desktop experience? |
| 16:55.20 | landley | needs to go look at their website... |
| 16:55.26 | landley | ab500: who said anything about desktop? |
| 16:55.28 | av500 | people find ubuntu on dual core A9 SLOW |
| 16:55.37 | av500 | landley: people expect that |
| 16:55.38 | landley | finds ubuntu on my netbook slow. |
| 16:55.43 | av500 | indeed |
| 16:55.45 | landley | This is because of ubuntu. |
| 16:56.01 | av500 | but r-pi fanbois think they WILL be able to run a desktop |
| 16:56.08 | av500 | most of them only know windows |
| 16:56.10 | landley | I first installed Linux on a 486DX. Uphill, both ways, in the snow, _at_33_mhz_. |
| 16:56.15 | av500 | yes |
| 16:56.29 | av500 | but it is not you-alikes that did the 100k preorders |
| 16:56.37 | av500 | its "normal" people |
| 16:56.45 | landley | The commodore 64 was a computer. And it had better interactive latency than most modern LInux desktop systems. |
| 16:56.51 | landley | This is because we suck at that. |
| 16:57.32 | av500 | yes |
| 16:57.38 | av500 | that is all true |
| 16:57.38 | landley | Fixing the "we suck at that" part is a good goal. It's sad that Ubuntu followed gnome so far up its' own ass that when it finally gave up it thought Unity was a good idea. |
| 16:57.53 | av500 | but I am talking about the mindset of people that are planning to buy an r-pi |
| 16:57.55 | landley | (And in comparison to Gnome 3, I can't really blame them. But that's damning with faint praise, that is.) |
| 16:58.02 | av500 | they think they are buying a computer |
| 16:58.10 | av500 | and they do not mean a 1980s computer |
| 16:58.13 | landley | They are buying a computer. They're just not buying a modern desktop system. |
| 16:58.22 | av500 | yes, go tell them |
| 16:58.29 | landley | They're buying about a 2003 computer. |
| 16:58.50 | av500 | yes, but it runs 2012 SW |
| 16:58.51 | landley | The raspberry PI specs would have been high end awesomeness in 2003. |
| 16:59.01 | landley | Which was, admittedly, 9 years ago now. |
| 16:59.10 | av500 | landley: dont tell me all that *I* know :) |
| 16:59.23 | landley | av500: people keep saying "Gates' Law" and I keep wanting to say "Stallmans' Law". |
| 16:59.31 | landley | The FSF can bloat to bog down any hardware you give it. |
| 16:59.40 | av500 | its not the FSF |
| 16:59.43 | av500 | its ALL SW |
| 16:59.44 | landley | GNU. |
| 16:59.55 | landley | av500: not the stuff I work on. |
| 17:00.00 | av500 | uuntu is not GNU bloat |
| 17:00.02 | av500 | ubuntu |
| 17:00.07 | landley | You have to _let_ Moore's Law make you lazy. |
| 17:00.11 | landley | Ok, that's only half the story. |
| 17:00.16 | landley | The other half of the story is video resolution. |
| 17:00.20 | av500 | yep |
| 17:00.25 | av500 | and 256MB in 2012 is a sick joke |
| 17:00.32 | landley | 256 megs of ram isn't enough to BITMAP a modern HDTV display. |
| 17:00.35 | av500 | mobile phones have 1GB |
| 17:00.48 | landley | But then Raspberry PI doesn't have HDTV output, that I"m aware of. |
| 17:00.53 | av500 | it has |
| 17:00.55 | av500 | 1080p |
| 17:01.34 | landley | It's interesting: NTSC TV resolution maxed out at around 640x480. (Actually less, but that's the "can't tell the difference beyond this" level.) |
| 17:01.51 | av500 | its just that you need 98MB only to decode and display H264@L5.1 and 16 ref frames |
| 17:01.55 | landley | And for the longest time, things like the Amiga could just ride that. If you were producing output for broadcast, you literally couldn't do better than an amiga. |
| 17:02.27 | av500 | so even if the r-pi can decode 1080p, it would need half its memory just for that, decode and GUI |
| 17:02.32 | landley | And then displays broke with TV and invented "monitors", and you needed dedicated (expensive) display hardware for you computer rather than using a cheap TV you had lying around. |
| 17:02.34 | av500 | so, you have 128MB for the SW |
| 17:02.54 | landley | And now HDTV comes in and bang: cheap monitors again. (At least once they saturate the market and start appearing in pawn shops en masse.) |
| 17:03.02 | av500 | landley: well, I am happy about my 2560x1440 not being a cheap TV :) |
| 17:03.28 | landley | Apple's "retina displays" show the real limit. |
| 17:03.50 | landley | This is as many pixels as your eye can see, no point scaling above that. |
| 17:03.53 | av500 | well, hopefully the new HD will by 4k displays |
| 17:04.00 | prpplague | landley: sorry back at my desk |
| 17:04.12 | landley | (Well, somewhere beyond that for displays you step up closer to so you're not seeing the whole thing...) |
| 17:04.19 | av500 | landley: for dpi yes, for screen size, I want retina the size of my desk |
| 17:04.30 | av500 | then I can really get rid of the paper |
| 17:04.32 | prpplague | landley: the primary mission of the pandaboard is to provide early access to processors that normally would be restricted to larger markets for some time |
| 17:04.37 | av500 | and family photos :) |
| 17:04.48 | av500 | prpplague: thats not how it was sold |
| 17:04.51 | av500 | or advertised |
| 17:04.53 | landley | The point is there is a limit beyond which display resolution doesn't matter, and we've actually hit it with one product. |
| 17:05.09 | av500 | landley: agreed, but now I want that resolution, but larger :) |
| 17:05.12 | av500 | 100" |
| 17:05.23 | av500 | you do the math as how many pixels that is :) |
| 17:05.35 | landley | Display _size_ limits: see televisions. We've got some wall-sized units but they're not the norm, the common max is what people are willing to have two people lift. 4-5 feet. |
| 17:05.40 | av500 | ok, 50" might do for a desktop |
| 17:06.05 | av500 | landley: flexible TV wallpaper will change tgar |
| 17:06.06 | landley | I'm looking at televisions. Much older, more mature technology. I sit on the couch, it's at the other end of the room, how big do I care to have it? |
| 17:06.07 | av500 | that |
| 17:06.17 | landley | av500: I doubt it. |
| 17:06.26 | av500 | landley: in fact, the 10" tablet in my hand is larger than my TV :) |
| 17:06.32 | landley | My house hasn't got the wall space. |
| 17:06.32 | av500 | coz its way closer |
| 17:06.42 | landley | We've got shelves and stuff. |
| 17:06.45 | av500 | the TV appears smaller |
| 17:07.03 | landley | av500: I'm aware of parallax and such, thank you. |
| 17:07.09 | prpplague | av500: agreed, which is part of the problem |
| 17:07.13 | av500 | landley: laser directly to your retina then :) |
| 17:07.27 | av500 | or usb4 plug into the neocortex |
| 17:07.30 | landley | The point is, how big a display are people willing to mass produce based on consumer demand, then how high a resolution do those actually need in real world use cases. |
| 17:07.44 | landley | Extrapolate from the mature technology to the maturing technology. |
| 17:07.50 | av500 | landley: there is no point arguing with you, we agree on to many things |
| 17:07.51 | landley | av500: please to do not look into laser with remaining eyeball. |
| 17:08.10 | av500 | excpet that you like to build native and I dont :) |
| 17:08.41 | landley | prpplague: so what was the goal of pandaboard then? |
| 17:08.54 | av500 | btw, here is a good one from r-pi irc: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=SSF6yJhR |
| 17:09.52 | landley | av500: I don't see the point of that link. |
| 17:10.06 | landley | It's some random people I don't know arguing essentially vi vs emacs. Pure noise. |
| 17:10.14 | av500 | no |
| 17:10.29 | landley | Sturgeon's law applies to the userbase. |
| 17:10.35 | av500 | well, maybe you need more context, but I like the punchline at the end :) |
| 17:10.37 | landley | There will always be a bottom 10%. |
| 17:10.41 | prpplague | landley: basically it boils down to 1) get open source developers working on the hardware to help test linux support 2) get as much omap4 support mainlined as quickly as possible and 3) to provide a platform for early adopters to develop software on |
| 17:11.02 | landley | ok |
| 17:11.04 | av500 | 4) get people to run ubuntu on it and despair |
| 17:11.10 | av500 | 4) was a success |
| 17:11.13 | landley | "Teach people to program" was not in the agenda then? |
| 17:11.16 | av500 | no |
| 17:11.29 | prpplague | av500: indeed |
| 17:11.39 | prpplague | landley: no |
| 17:11.42 | landley | av500: the guy who wrote an arm emulator for an 8-bit microcontroller booted ubuntu on it. I forget how many hours he said it took to get to a command prompt. |
| 17:11.46 | landley | There was a video. |
| 17:11.54 | av500 | yeah, i read that :) |
| 17:12.59 | av500 | prpplague: the day one existance of android and ubuntu for panda gave the impression one could buy, install and use it |
| 17:13.09 | av500 | well, pandroid fell apart pretty fast |
| 17:13.24 | av500 | since in fact it was not day one ready |
| 17:13.31 | prpplague | av500: indeed |
| 17:13.40 | prpplague | av500: which is one of my complaints about that |
| 17:13.53 | av500 | so we are lucky that linaro takes care of that |
| 17:14.03 | av500 | whereas for ubuntu, linaro distracts |
| 17:14.19 | av500 | there is now: 1) ubuntu 2) rcn-ee ubuntu |
| 17:14.23 | av500 | 3) linarobuntu |
| 17:14.32 | av500 | 4) linaro xbmc special ubuntu |
| 17:14.48 | av500 | each with XX.YY versions galore |
| 17:15.18 | av500 | try to dist upgrade any of them and they fall apart |
| 17:16.12 | landley | http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.%20Linux%20on%208bit |
| 17:16.19 | av500 | yes |
| 17:17.01 | av500 | not to mention that people who want to develop dont even know what kernel to go from |
| 17:17.24 | prpplague | av500: indeed all issues that have been pointed out at length to management |
| 17:17.29 | landley | I keep thinking linaro is one of the long chain of Linux FOundation failure organizations ala meego and tizen and yocto and whatever the other flavors du jour are... |
| 17:17.37 | av500 | no |
| 17:17.39 | av500 | not at all |
| 17:17.43 | landley | I know. |
| 17:17.52 | landley | It's the TI thing, not the Intel Thing. |
| 17:18.08 | av500 | no |
| 17:18.12 | av500 | linaro is an ARM thing |
| 17:18.20 | av500 | and its actualyl good |
| 17:18.21 | prpplague | av500: it doesn't help that the "pandaboard team" is basically just me |
| 17:18.28 | av500 | prpplague i know |
| 17:18.35 | av500 | landley: linaro is actually good |
| 17:18.38 | landley | I"m just saying I keep getting confused because it _sounds_ like all the various other corporate initiatives from nokia and such that keep getting unloaded on "the community" as defined by a standards bureaucracy. |
| 17:18.44 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
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| 17:18.55 | av500 | landley: linaro is not about community at all |
| 17:19.04 | av500 | its people from arm vendors improving arm SW |
| 17:19.22 | landley | Neither was Nokia's or INtel's projects, until the corporate parent decided to stop doing that and wanted the community to take over its abandonware. |
| 17:19.37 | landley | There has been some crying wolf in this space, is what I"m saying. |
| 17:19.47 | prpplague | landley: yea, very different model for linaro |
| 17:19.59 | landley | Heck, I remember lesswatts.org. |
| 17:20.09 | av500 | we have been telling ARM for years that they are sitting on their hands SW wise |
| 17:20.24 | av500 | and now intel is getting close and suddenly they jump into action.... |
| 17:20.31 | landley | prpplague: so more like power.org then? |
| 17:21.04 | landley | There's Google funding a lot of android work, and vendors circling that. |
| 17:21.11 | prpplague | isn't familiar with power.org enough to comment |
| 17:21.19 | av500 | yes, but google can jump ship to x86 any day |
| 17:21.37 | av500 | there are rumors that android 5 will be x86 even |
| 17:21.47 | landley | There's Code Sourcery collecting the ex-cygnus guys and employing GNU toolchain people at just enough arms length from the Free Software FOundation that people don't immediately pull out the torches and pitchforks. |
| 17:22.05 | av500 | CS is being paid by ARM |
| 17:22.14 | landley | There's the Linux Foundation's Initiative Du Jour that keeps spending all its budget on marketing rather than engineering. |
| 17:22.19 | av500 | its ARMs way of making up for not having a free compiler |
| 17:22.40 | av500 | so instead of giving away armcc for free like intel does |
| 17:22.46 | av500 | ARM prefers to improve gcc ... |
| 17:22.53 | av500 | does not understand that |
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| 17:23.49 | landley | There's the actual engineering organizations like linutronix and secret labs and free-electrons and such trying not to get _squashed_ by the LInux FOundation's new "initiatives" sucking away their customers. |
| 17:24.14 | av500 | right, but that's LF and their crazy stunts |
| 17:24.21 | av500 | its not linked to linaro |
| 17:24.26 | prpplague | landley: major difference is that linaro doesn't have customers |
| 17:24.33 | av500 | linaro could work on closed sourc stuff |
| 17:24.35 | prpplague | landley: they only have supporting members |
| 17:24.46 | prpplague | av500: and does work on closed source |
| 17:24.54 | av500 | its just ARM vendors trying to weed out NIH |
| 17:24.59 | landley | So it's like x.org, apache, mozilla... |
| 17:25.01 | av500 | which makes sense |
| 17:25.06 | landley | A "foundation". |
| 17:25.12 | av500 | since SoC get output 3 times a year now |
| 17:25.16 | av500 | instead of every 3ys |
| 17:25.27 | landley | Except not identified with a core software project ala LibreOffice. |
| 17:25.55 | landley | really can't keep track of this stuff. |
| 17:26.23 | landley | I generally give any corporate-sponsored initiative a few years years to see if it's still around before paying much attention to it. |
| 17:26.34 | landley | This weeds out almost all of them. |
| 17:26.36 | av500 | sure |
| 17:26.40 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 17:27.26 | av500 | of course eg. linaro android builds for panda and other boards are taking away from porting houses |
| 17:27.33 | av500 | that would have done that otherwise |
| 17:27.39 | landley | I look at linaro and think back to OSDL. |
| 17:27.57 | landley | A "coordination point" tends to accumulate plaque in the form of a CEO and such. |
| 17:28.25 | av500 | landley: we will see |
| 17:28.33 | landley | Yup. Well, good luck to 'em. |
| 17:28.46 | prpplague | landley: yea, many of the same comments you are making are ones that i have questions on the linaro side, but most have been proven of no concern so far |
| 17:28.50 | av500 | so far I do see them furthering the narrative, so Its positive so far |
| 17:28.55 | prpplague | has found linaro to most useful so far |
| 17:28.57 | landley | If they can shepherd some of the android crap through the Linux kernel trial by fire to get into vanilla, that'd be nice. |
| 17:29.22 | landley | prpplague: OSDL didn't actively suck at first. |
| 17:29.34 | prpplague | landley: agreed |
| 17:29.57 | landley | Heck, usenix started out as an actual hobbyist organization rather than some kind of guild. |
| 17:30.29 | landley | It's rare for this sort of organization to age gracefully. |
| 17:30.40 | prpplague | agreed |
| 17:31.06 | landley | I mean even Penguicon is dying because it attracted people who felt it was important that they be in charge. |
| 17:31.27 | landley | This drove away the people who wanted to see the job done, rather than who wanted to be in charge of an organization. |
| 17:32.09 | landley | Result: Matt Arnold drove away me and Tracy and Steve and John and so on, and they lost the ability to put on an exceptional convention. |
| 17:32.12 | av500 | penguiwhat? |
| 17:32.24 | av500 | i guess that proves your point ;) |
| 17:32.25 | landley | From what I've seen this year, they've lost the ability to put on a _good_ convention, but we'll see... |
| 17:32.45 | landley | av500: A combination LInux Expo and Science FIction convention a friend and I started up in Michigan in 2003. |
| 17:33.02 | landley | Our first year's guests were Terry Pratchett, Eric Raymond, one of the co-founders of Slashdot, and a couple webcomic artists. |
| 17:33.31 | landley | Our second year guests of honor were Neil Gaiman, Jon "Maddog" Hall, Steve Jackson, the _other_ co-founder of Slashdot, and Wil Wheaton (who had to pull out due to a scheduling conflict). |
| 17:33.42 | landley | It was _fun_. |
| 17:34.05 | landley | And then it attracted people who Wanted TO Be IN Charge Of It. |
| 17:34.11 | landley | (WOW this keyboard has a slow to release shift key...) |
| 17:34.42 | av500 | or you are typing in rage :) |
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| 20:34.32 | Mirell | Heh. |
| 20:41.38 | landley | Mirell: hmmm? |
| 20:46.09 | Mirell | landley: Your commentary on Penguicon. |
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| 21:30.16 | calculus | landley: don't forget the raspberry pi still needs CE compliance, http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/878 |
| 21:41.56 | landley | calculus: I saw that. |
| 21:42.18 | landley | It doesn't really. Pandaboard didn't, and that's a european thing anyway I think? |
| 21:43.31 | calculus | neither did the beagleboards, but their distributor says they do |
| 21:43.42 | calculus | I wonder if they also distribute pandaboards and beagleboards |
| 21:49.29 | calculus | interesting both have raspberry pi distributors carry beagles |
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| 23:14.56 | prpplague | calculus: yea, i am not sure why they are saying it needs CE compliance testing |
| 23:15.05 | prpplague | calculus: i suspect it is due to how it is marketed |
| 23:15.23 | prpplague | calculus: panda and beagle are specifically marked as development platforms |
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