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| 03:29.48 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: up late? |
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| 14:55.25 | landley | I deny all knowledge of http://landley.net/hg/qcc at present. Or the mailing list. |
| 14:55.30 | landley | Waaaaay too much else to do. |
| 14:55.54 | landley | But since Fabrice Bellard did say he was willing to relicense tinycc under bsd if somebody else did the clearance work of tracking down third party commits... |
| 14:56.27 | landley | Which would be easier if the tinycc mailing list archive hadn't been down since he said that. |
| 14:56.42 | landley | (I missed commemorating the third anniversary of their last release, although who you send the cake to I dunno...) |
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| 15:09.23 | av500 | landley: what is next, a BSD kernel? :) |
| 15:09.53 | av500 | since SFC has kernel people on their roster now..... |
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| 15:19.46 | landley | av500: you mean like the iPhone uses? |
| 15:20.01 | landley | I think I'll let Google lead there. |
| 15:20.12 | landley | If android switches to bsd, I'll probably follow. |
| 15:20.51 | landley | Until then Linus is smarter than I am, and I defer to his judgement. |
| 15:21.06 | landley | You'll notice he vetoed gplv3 and he's _not_ doing license enforcement. |
| 15:21.36 | landley | It's peripheral guys you've never heard of, it's quite possible that a reasonable response to any lawsuit from them is to remove their code from the android kernel. |
| 15:27.47 | av500 | :) |
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| 15:28.04 | av500 | landley: right, lets conquer user space first :) |
| 15:29.41 | landley | av500: that's pretty much what I'm doing. |
| 15:29.53 | landley | No matter what happens, google isn't changing their "no gpl in userspace" policy at this point. |
| 15:30.23 | landley | They're committed to linux the way they're committed to java. They defended against oracle's suit, they'd probably defend against an SFC suit. |
| 15:30.38 | landley | "Look, the enemy of my enemy! Let's attack them!" |
| 15:30.44 | landley | Brilliant, as always, FSF guys. |
| 15:33.05 | av500 | landley: SFC is not oracle |
| 15:33.15 | av500 | and goog is in no danger from SFC |
| 15:33.23 | av500 | goog releases all source code for the kernel |
| 15:33.37 | landley | Then presumably it's moot. |
| 15:33.39 | av500 | most big manufacturers do |
| 15:34.04 | av500 | the chinese do not, but nobody wants code for an SoC with a halflive measured in fortnights |
| 15:34.13 | landley | Everybody keeps talking about how busybox suits never got any _busybox_ code, but it got all this kernel code... |
| 15:34.31 | landley | Except I dunno what the heck they're talking about, and when you ask for specifics they can't point to anything merged. |
| 15:34.52 | landley | av500: manufacturers in the far east are designed to mushroom and die. |
| 15:34.57 | av500 | I have tons of kernel code in our GPL releases. nobody WANTs to merge any of that |
| 15:35.02 | av500 | its throwaway code |
| 15:35.31 | landley | A large company forms a shell company, which forms a shell company (repeat N times), which forms a small start-up that hires contractors for 4 months, produces a bunch of inventory, sells it into the distribution channel, and then dissolves before any products wind up in stores. |
| 15:35.58 | av500 | landley: trust me, I know all about that |
| 15:36.00 | landley | If you try to go after them, they're long gone, don't speak english, and you have to dig through at least three shell companies to find out where the money went. |
| 15:36.10 | landley | BUt the reason they do this isn't GPL, it's the horked patent system. |
| 15:36.34 | landley | YOu can't make an ashtray without violating a dozen patents, so they build it into their business model. |
| 15:36.36 | av500 | and liability in general |
| 15:36.40 | av500 | yep |
| 15:37.11 | av500 | well, its normal for construction companies *here* to go bankrupt after a big deal and restart |
| 15:37.18 | av500 | due to liability |
| 15:37.27 | av500 | so why should the chinese not learn from that:) |
| 15:37.49 | landley | MOre taiwan/vietnam/korea/singapore, but yeah china too. |
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| 17:27.22 | slashbeast | landley: toybox's mdev is slightly different from the busybox's one, miss the mdev.seq support for example. Why is that? |
| 17:39.25 | landley | slashbeast: toybox's mdev isn't remotely finished. |
| 17:39.39 | landley | mdev and toysh are both quick first-pass hacks that people keep trying to use. :) |
| 17:39.48 | slashbeast | ouch |
| 17:39.54 | landley | what's mdev.seq support? |
| 17:40.02 | landley | There's a config file... |
| 17:40.22 | slashbeast | seq make mdev serialize events |
| 17:40.31 | slashbeast | so you will not have race condition with scripts running via mdev |
| 17:40.51 | landley | seq make? |
| 17:40.56 | landley | How does it work? |
| 17:41.04 | landley | Some sort of annotation...? |
| 17:42.11 | slashbeast | no idea how it works, there is comment in bb's mdev.c about .seq and it seems to work |
| 17:43.39 | landley | I"m not really asking how it works, I"m asking how it's configured. |
| 17:43.50 | landley | I can come up with my own implementations, I just want to know how you specify that you want it. |
| 17:43.59 | slashbeast | you touch /dev/mdev.seq and thats all |
| 17:44.00 | landley | Presumably it's some config file annotation... |
| 17:44.14 | landley | So how does it know what comes before what? |
| 17:44.22 | landley | Or does it just block until the last script it ran exits? |
| 17:44.28 | landley | (Which would be trivial, but deadlocky.) |
| 17:44.33 | slashbeast | and now you are asking how it works. ;-) |
| 17:44.44 | slashbeast | dunno but now the file contain 1096 number |
| 17:44.44 | landley | No, I"m asking what it does. How is a separate question. |
| 17:45.04 | landley | I should just ask solar. He probably designed it... |
| 17:45.51 | slashbeast | landley: there are only two events in uevent, add and remove? |
| 17:45.55 | slashbeast | I dont see any support for event 'change' |
| 17:46.01 | slashbeast | and I think there is such event |
| 17:47.22 | landley | I'd have to look at the kernel source. |
| 17:47.32 | landley | and/or my notes from years ago. |
| 17:47.40 | landley | I tend to get intimately familiar with things and then wander away. |
| 17:47.47 | landley | Either it changes or I forget the details. |
| 17:48.06 | slashbeast | so you do notes, thats good |
| 17:48.24 | landley | Buckets of little .txt files. |
| 17:48.31 | slashbeast | I dont do them usually, then after months/years I have huge problem understanding how does it works. |
| 17:48.33 | landley | Generally my projects have two directory levels, ala ~/toybox/toybox |
| 17:48.50 | landley | The top one is notes and unapplied patches and random other comparison code and so on. |
| 17:49.02 | landley | The second one is the tree of stuff that gets checked in. |
| 17:49.31 | landley | That's how you can distinguish projects I bang on from projects I don't bang on. The second just have one level. |
| 17:49.42 | landley | I've still got ~/busybox/busybox for hysterical raisins. |
| 17:49.51 | landley | ~uclibc/uClibc is the one I always trip myself up on. :) |
| 17:49.52 | purl | landley: okay |
| 17:50.05 | landley | purl: what? |
| 17:50.05 | purl | idk |
| 17:50.26 | landley | purl: landley |
| 17:50.26 | purl | methinks landley is like, just this guy, ya know |
| 17:50.36 | landley | purl: what did you think I told you to do? |
| 17:51.03 | landley | purl: how much is 99999999! |
| 17:51.03 | purl | landley: I think you lost me on that one |
| 17:51.15 | landley | purl: what's 6*7 |
| 17:51.30 | landley | purl: what do you get if you multiple six by nine? |
| 17:51.37 | landley | purl: the answer is forty two. |
| 17:51.37 | purl | ...but answer is already something else... |
| 17:51.44 | landley | purl: in base thirteen, anyway. |
| 17:51.59 | landley | purl: how many roads must a man walk down? |
| 17:52.08 | landley | purl: the answer is "blowin' in the wind". |
| 17:52.08 | purl | ...but answer is already something else... |
| 17:52.16 | landley | (Which would make a great jeopardy question.) |
| 17:52.19 | landley | "Blowin' in the wind." |
| 17:52.45 | landley | Sigh, backwards. |
| 17:52.53 | landley | "How many roads must a man walk down?" |
| 17:53.00 | landley | Bzzzt. "Blowin' in the wind." "Correct!" |
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| 17:58.48 | landley | slashbeast: I've been programming since I was 10 years old. |
| 17:58.59 | landley | I taught myself C in 1990. |
| 17:59.19 | landley | Meaning I've had an awful _lot_ of programs I wrote over the years that I dig up again 5 years later and it might as well have been written by a stranger. |
| 17:59.25 | landley | Heck 6 months later: notes! |
| 17:59.34 | landley | (With enough sleep deprivation, the next morning.) |
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| 18:00.38 | landley | Hiya prpplague. |
| 18:00.41 | prpplague | landley: hey bud |
| 18:00.59 | prpplague | landley: you gonna make it to LPC/LC in august? |
| 18:02.53 | landley | I've never gone to plumber's and anything run by the linux foundation fills me with dread. |
| 18:03.00 | landley | But if people I know are going to be there, I could give it a shot... |
| 18:03.02 | prpplague | landley: hehe |
| 18:03.14 | slashbeast | landley: when I was 10 I was too busy derping in gta1 ;-) |
| 18:03.22 | prpplague | landley: gotta run some errands bbiab |
| 18:03.28 | landley | The linux foundation is "usenix for y2k". |
| 18:03.52 | landley | slashbeast: I had an atari 2600, and then the next console was a praystation 2. And that was used. |
| 18:03.57 | slashbeast | landley: and when you was doing C I had 1 year lol |
| 18:04.14 | landley | Bunch of commodore 64 games, and amiga, and a few PC ones. |
| 18:04.22 | slashbeast | I had amiga cd/tv |
| 18:04.25 | slashbeast | that was monster |
| 18:04.31 | landley | Ah, the device that killed commodore. |
| 18:04.53 | slashbeast | a wireless controller, keyboard, floppy and overkill, cd rom |
| 18:05.08 | landley | http://xcssa.org/pipermail/xcssa/2005-February/002587.html |
| 18:06.12 | landley | Did it look like this? http://web.archive.org/web/20050205014401/http://amiga.emugaming.com/cd32.html |
| 18:06.40 | landley | Eh, I guess it couldn't have since those didn't quite ship, it seems... |
| 18:07.00 | slashbeast | landley: http://www.heimcomputer.de/pics/cdtv1.jpg |
| 18:07.28 | slashbeast | landley: better shot https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/e/ea/Commodore_CDTV.JPG |
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| 18:19.53 | wmat | landley: do you ever update your docs pages on kernel.org? |
| 18:33.02 | landley | prpplague: So is http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/ARM-board-for-Arduino-shields-1618480.html a thing? |
| 18:33.12 | landley | wmat: http://landley.net/kdocs is a newer version of that. |
| 18:33.19 | landley | I never got my credentials renewed after the kernel.org breakin. |
| 18:33.29 | landley | It's on my todo list but I have to get a key signed by multiple kernel developers. |
| 18:33.44 | landley | And not just any kernel developers, but ones with kernel.org accounts, which eliminates the ones I actually know locally. |
| 18:33.58 | landley | Last conference I was at was ELC in 2010... |
| 18:36.14 | wmat | landley: you should throw the page source up on github or something and take pull requests |
| 18:36.30 | wmat | landley: maybe convert it to markdown with pandoc |
| 18:38.44 | landley | wmat: http://landley.net/hg/kdocs |
| 18:39.01 | landley | Although really I haven't been keeping up with that either. |
| 18:39.21 | landley | wmat: what's pandoc? |
| 18:39.46 | landley | I've been doing this since 2007 and people have told me I should use docbook, oxygen, asciidoc, and at least three others. |
| 18:39.54 | landley | Nice to hear there's a new flavor of the moment. |
| 18:40.09 | landley | And I don't do git for fun. |
| 18:40.22 | landley | I consider git a read-only repository format. The user interface is just too horrible otherwise. |
| 18:40.32 | landley | I do mercurial for fun. |
| 18:40.46 | landley | It's trivially convertible to git and I'm willing to commit changes into the repo. |
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| 18:47.17 | wmat | pandoc is a conversion tool. It's actually very useful. http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ |
| 18:48.20 | wmat | regardless of vcs, allowing for contribuions to your kernel pages may be useful |
| 18:50.09 | landley | wmat: wiki.kernel.org |
| 18:50.11 | landley | Have at. |
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| 19:24.51 | wmat | I don't see you content there |
| 20:07.40 | prpplague | landley: yea say that earlier today |
| 20:07.56 | prpplague | landley: a lot of the arduino folks are looking to transition to more powerful boards but with linux |
| 20:08.25 | landley | wmat it isn't there. |
| 20:08.41 | landley | I'm saying there's a wiki. Anybody who wants to can add content there. (Possibly needing to get an account.) |
| 20:08.50 | landley | It's wide open, collaboratively developed. |
| 20:09.04 | landley | My page is just a bunch of things I"ve collected. I'm happy to be poked about it in email. |
| 20:09.14 | prpplague | landley: i started a project that allows people to compile an arduino sketch and run it as a linux userspace binary |
| 20:09.43 | landley | I used to point people at kernel-doc but since it became fashionable to cc: 30-patch series there because one of the patches touched something in Documentation/ that list has become useless. |
| 20:10.07 | landley | prpplague: what's an arduino "sketch"? |
| 20:11.10 | prpplague | landley: basically they have a bunch c++ libs that abstract all of the difficult embedded items. they call a program written in this environment a "sketch" |
| 20:11.21 | prpplague | landley: as the original intent was to target the coding style to artists |
| 20:12.31 | landley | Any time I hear somebody say they used C++ to abstract something away, I run. |
| 20:12.35 | prpplague | hehe |
| 20:12.37 | prpplague | landley: indeed |
| 20:13.22 | prpplague | landley: the whole coding style is looked down upon from most microcontroller developers, but it is a great start for people who aren't planning to be computer programmers/developers |
| 20:13.32 | prpplague | they just want their little project to work |
| 20:14.18 | prpplague | has to go run some more errands |
| 20:14.38 | prpplague | my wife is leaving tomorrow to visit family in barbados, so we have a bunch of small items to get done |
| 20:14.39 | prpplague | bbiab |
| 20:14.43 | landley | The programming language intended for non-programmers was BASIC. |
| 20:31.17 | wmat | prpplague: living the batchelor life. So when you say, run errands, you mean buy beer right? |
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| 20:41.16 | landley | Why did they do C11!!one! ? |
| 20:41.18 | landley | I'm curious. |
| 20:41.36 | landley | Unicode "just works" if your text editor supports it and your strings are 8 bit clean. |
| 20:41.52 | landley | The new standard added a u8 prefix on strings to indicate they're utf8. What does that actually _do_? |
| 20:42.07 | landley | Other than break programs that #define u8 unsigned char |
| 20:42.28 | landley | Why did they add static_assert() to the language instead of the preprocessor? |
| 20:42.56 | landley | I mean really, I didn't see a single thing in http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/240001401 that struck me as worth doing. |
| 20:43.02 | landley | Maybe I wasn't paying attention hard enough... |
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| 22:00.30 | prpplague | wmat: hehe, yea i already got like 50 TV dinners |
| 22:00.40 | prpplague | wmat: waiting till tomorrow afternoon to get all the beer |
| 22:12.35 | wmat | prpplague: I'll be there by 6 tomorrow |
| 22:12.44 | prpplague | hehe |
