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| 14:39.51 | landley | slashbeast: you saw http://lwn.net/Articles/503660/ right? |
| 14:40.07 | landley | It was merged into 3.6 by the way. |
| 14:41.32 | landley | It basically means that in a directory with the sticky bit set, symlinks only get followed when A) follower and symlink have the same UID,or B) directory owner and symlink have the same UID. |
| 14:41.46 | landley | Since /tmp has the sticky bit set, this eliminates the vast majority of symlink attacks in there. |
| 14:52.26 | slashbeast | landley: yeah I saw it, grsecurity have it for years |
| 14:53.34 | slashbeast | I can't really even think about running a service server without grsec so it does not change anything for me sadly |
| 14:54.14 | landley | shrugs. Just an FYI. |
| 14:54.37 | slashbeast | right, thank you for heads up |
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| 15:19.34 | landley | It was horrible. Middle aged white men in collared shirts gushing about "Management Framework" on top of an endlessly repeating electric guitar track. |
| 15:19.46 | landley | They... they talked about "revenue pull-through". |
| 15:20.10 | landley | There was something about "vendor vendors". |
| 15:20.55 | landley | One of the slides was titled "How can Managment Framework help Greatness of Human Experience". |
| 15:23.28 | av500 | lol |
| 15:25.42 | landley | They keep making these videos, and showing them to the engineers. I don't know why. |
| 15:25.53 | landley | I think senior management is honestly trying to communicate with us, but doesn't know how. |
| 15:26.15 | landley | I mean... do they show these outside the company? Is there a context in which it might actually help? |
| 15:26.21 | av500 | no |
| 15:26.56 | av500 | its because management thinks they need to do something |
| 15:26.58 | av500 | anything |
| 15:27.08 | landley | I tweeted one of really weird phrase. "Three different consumption modes of our solution." |
| 15:27.24 | landley | Fade pointed out that should probably be "for", but A) it wasn't, B) it doesn't help. |
| 15:27.38 | av500 | solid, liquid and fetid |
| 15:27.39 | slashbeast | landley: whats are your opinions about musl? |
| 15:27.50 | landley | slashbeast: I need to bang on it some more. |
| 15:27.56 | landley | My opinion so far is that it shows great promise. |
| 15:28.21 | landley | But there's a "driving sheep across the minefield" stage of feedling buckets of real world data through any new program to see what it can't cope with. |
| 15:28.28 | landley | In the case of libc, I built the whole of linux from scratch against it. |
| 15:28.32 | landley | I haven't done that with musl yet. |
| 15:28.50 | landley | It's much _simpler_ than uClibc, yet claims to be about on par with it feature-wise. I'm all for it. |
| 15:29.24 | landley | I don't _hugely_ care about performance because microoptimizations for one architecture or processor generation wind up pessimizing in other contexts. |
| 15:29.44 | slashbeast | I do wonder about new gcc, being in cpp. |
| 15:29.51 | slashbeast | I wanted a system without cxx. |
| 15:29.53 | landley | Simple covers about 80% of it and then the basics of locality of reference and sane transaction sizes such are universal, and they seem to have that part down. |
| 15:30.01 | landley | slashbeast: gcc is dying. |
| 15:30.12 | slashbeast | so thats not only my thoughts |
| 15:30.25 | landley | The new egcs is called llvm. |
| 15:30.44 | slashbeast | but gcc is the standard and for many years it will still be |
| 15:30.48 | landley | But open64 is in there too. (Or is it tru64? That thing qualcomm's all excited about.) |
| 15:30.54 | slashbeast | can you even build kernel with llvm/clang? |
| 15:30.57 | landley | slashbeast: gcc is netscape. |
| 15:31.28 | landley | http://lwn.net/Articles/441018/ |
| 15:31.59 | landley | It runs like this: |
| 15:32.44 | landley | GPLv3 did to copyleft what AT&T's commercialization did to Unix. Split it into warring fragments that led to irrelevance of the once-dominant thing. |
| 15:32.59 | slashbeast | I dont like current floss world, the weird ideas in gcc, the systemd+udev. |
| 15:33.04 | landley | (Unix got reinvented a decade later, but that's a side point.) |
| 15:33.09 | slashbeast | I got used to slackware-like systems without all those crap. |
| 15:33.34 | landley | GPLv3 meant Android went "No GPL in userspace", and meant that lots of people froze at gcc 4.2.1. |
| 15:33.58 | landley | One of those entities was Apple, which found a university compiler project and sponsored it to become their annointed replacement for mac and iphone: LLVM/CLANG. |
| 15:34.03 | slashbeast | gpl is not that all good, in fact, I would never write anything under gpl |
| 15:34.13 | slashbeast | bsd or mit is the license of choice. |
| 15:34.28 | av500 | heretic! :))) |
| 15:34.33 | av500 | landley: current android is 4.4.3 |
| 15:34.42 | landley | THe OpenBSd and NetBSD guys got together and re-launched the old Portable C Compiler from the 1970's, vowing to bring it up to c99 with modern optimizer and target support, and that's http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ |
| 15:35.00 | landley | av500: they don't ship a compiler. |
| 15:35.05 | av500 | right |
| 15:35.08 | landley | Android not being self-hosting is a separate issue, which I'm working on. |
| 15:35.38 | landley | Android's problem is that gcc 4.2.1 was just before armv7 support went in, and phones care _deeply_ about optimization because it equals battery life. |
| 15:36.19 | landley | Companies like qualcomm decided they wanted to sponsor http://www.open64.net/ development, which is GPLv2 only. |
| 15:36.37 | av500 | I fail to see why a toolchain needs v3 anyway |
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| 15:36.50 | av500 | so I cant tivoize the compiler? |
| 15:37.05 | landley | av500: none of these alternate toolchains are GPLv3. |
| 15:37.15 | landley | I did a tinycc fork for a while, and you know how that turned out. |
| 15:37.19 | av500 | landley: yeah, I meant gcc itself |
| 15:37.33 | landley | I was attracted to tinycc by http://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html |
| 15:37.38 | landley | av500: nothing, anywhere needs gplv3. |
| 15:38.00 | landley | The FSF was collapsing into irrelevance, the license was the only thing they still had any control over, so they exploited the "lifeboat clause" when the ship wasn't sinking. |
| 15:38.17 | landley | Remember Darth Vader "I am altering the bargain, pray I don't alter it any further"? |
| 15:38.18 | landley | That. |
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| 15:40.09 | landley | Linus Torvalds had already said the kernel was GPLv2 only back in 2000. The FSF played chicken with the kernel devs, and when the kernel devs didn't swerve there was a smash-up. |
| 15:40.19 | landley | Which drove a lot of us to BSD licensing: http://lwn.net/Articles/505644/ |
| 15:41.13 | landley | slashbeast: what kind of system boot would you like? I've got mdev, and need to extended it with some diethotplug concepts. (Firmware loader.) |
| 15:41.47 | slashbeast | landley: it does load firmware I believe, at least works for me. |
| 15:41.58 | slashbeast | I do run mdev on very each boxes I have at work and home. |
| 15:42.05 | landley | The busybox one. I'm talking about the toybox one. :) |
| 15:42.26 | landley | But I'd like them reasonably functionally equivalent because I don't want diverging weirdness. |
| 15:42.33 | slashbeast | ah, well, support for firmware, support for skiping rules, serialize events (to avoid race conditions with scripts) |
| 15:42.45 | landley | I'm treating mdev as a more or less standard command, that may wind up in posix someday if there are multiple compatable implementations. |
| 15:42.57 | slashbeast | so I can have: |
| 15:42.58 | slashbeast | # Stop creating x:x:x:x which looks like /dev/dm-* |
| 15:42.58 | slashbeast | [0-9]+\:[0-9]+\:[0-9]+\:[0-9]+ root:root 660 ! |
| 15:43.00 | landley | I'm caught up to august 2 in my email. |
| 15:43.12 | landley | IF you can email me the thingy I'll add it to my notes. |
| 15:43.20 | landley | I'm now only 14 days behind. Catching up! |
| 15:43.21 | slashbeast | the mdev-needed fatures? |
| 15:43.26 | landley | Yup. |
| 15:43.36 | slashbeast | okey I will do it shortly (in less than 2h) |
| 15:43.45 | slashbeast | rewritting my sh bindings to lxc |
| 15:44.05 | landley | I'm mostly working based on http://git.busybox.net/busybox/tree/docs/mdev.txt |
| 15:44.15 | landley | No rush, I won't get to it before the weekend anyway. |
| 15:44.31 | landley | But I do like to keep track of user requirements. Thanks. |
| 15:45.11 | slashbeast | I feel very uneasy with all the mainstream distros moving to systemd |
| 15:45.28 | slashbeast | I am waiting for 'dbus segfaulted, I cant start my system' |
| 15:45.55 | slashbeast | or another argument, that swapon is wrong and you should use systemd weird bus to active swap, because thats better. |
| 16:15.10 | landley | somebody suggested that? screw 'em. |
| 16:15.35 | landley | I'm mostly following what android is doing these days, and plotting how to supplement it with classic linux/embedded stuff to fill out a full development environment. |
| 16:15.50 | landley | I.E. I'd rather get cyanogenmod than ubuntu. |
| 16:17.38 | landley | IF you really believe "mainframe -> minicomputer -> microcomputer -> smartphone" then it doesn't _matter_ what Fedora does, or who follows it back in the previous generation. |
| 16:17.58 | landley | Any more than new developments on the VAX mattered in the 1980's. |
| 16:20.31 | prpplague | landley: getting tortured with some management videos? |
| 16:21.59 | landley | Eh, it happens. |
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| 16:39.12 | landley | Once again, the solution to a fiddly toolchain build problem seems to be carefully re-ordering stuff. Sheesh. |
| 16:43.49 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: wow, my only contribution to K3.6 is a patch to clean up some comments :( |
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| 16:45.35 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git;a=commit;h=40ce972d59fcfd4979e5de04456122447b40c1cf |
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| 16:57.20 | prpplague | GPSFan: hey hey |
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| 17:21.14 | landley | Steel drums in an enclosed space, of course that's what you want for a party. |
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| 17:45.47 | GPSFan | prpplague, howdy, howdy, howdy... |
| 17:50.52 | landley | People are still paying attention to tivo and yocto? |
| 17:50.53 | landley | Why? |
| 17:57.21 | prpplague | landley: yocto yes |
| 17:57.44 | landley | Sorry, tizen and yocto. |
| 17:57.45 | landley | \Why? |
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| 18:22.05 | _av500_ | tizen is walking dead |
| 18:22.41 | _av500_ | its samsung linux by any name |
| 18:22.42 | _av500_ | bada |
| 18:22.43 | _av500_ | limo |
| 18:22.51 | _av500_ | tizen |
| 18:25.44 | landley | maemo, meego, yocto, tizen... there's a difference? |
| 18:26.03 | landley | The linux foundation keeps coming up with a new not-android to solve the problem of the previous not-android not being android. |
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| 18:29.44 | SpeedEvil | well. memo is officially dead. |
| 18:29.53 | SpeedEvil | maemo |
| 18:40.50 | landley | Is meego officially dead? |
| 18:42.27 | landley | There's a bitcoin conference in london next month. I keep encountering things I thought had died. |
| 18:43.17 | landley | And yesterday I ran across a blog about pogs. |
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| 18:57.48 | landley | Heh. http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_museum |
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| 19:16.02 | landley | Ok, fixed the darn "build on fedora" bug. |
| 19:17.08 | landley | Which turned out to be that no shell ubuntu's ever shipped links against libgcc_s.so.1 but the bash shipped by fedora does, so gcc's LD_PRELOAD craziness filling the host path with target libraries when launching the shell didn't do damage on ubuntu, but does on fedora. |
| 19:17.16 | landley | Fix: make blahblahblah SHELL=sh |
| 19:17.20 | landley | To use the one out of build/host. |
| 19:17.30 | landley | THAT took WAY TOO LONG to track down. :P |
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