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| 05:24.56 | calculus | prpplague: saw your post about ostrich eggs... on my vacation I got to ride an ostrich |
| 05:25.16 | prpplague | calculus: yea but did you eat one? hehe |
| 05:25.41 | calculus | yes, ostrich steak for lunch that day along with ostrich scrambled eggs |
| 05:25.48 | prpplague | haha |
| 05:25.57 | calculus | maybe just a scrambled egg for the whole table |
| 05:26.38 | calculus | at an ostrich farm, also had the chance to stand on their eggs (and they don't break) |
| 05:26.52 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 11:54.26 | chouimat | morning |
| 12:10.04 | g1powermac | hey chouimat |
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| 13:19.06 | jackmitchell | Does ncurses have a 'checkbox' like option? |
| 13:19.26 | jackmitchell | *in C |
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| 16:11.46 | chouimat | g1powermac: hey sorry was kind of busy this morning |
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| 17:15.54 | *** topic/#edev by prpplague -> Discussion of embedded systems (Hardware/Software/Linux/Commercial Device Repurposing) : Busybox and Buildroot : http://www.elinux.org : Logs available at ibot.rikers.org |
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| 18:24.01 | sorphin | landley: you there? |
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| 18:38.41 | landley | sorphin: yeah, but heading out in a couple minutes. What's up? |
| 18:54.37 | sorphin | landley: don't know if you saw what i was messing wiht the other day.. The Lowe's Iris aka Alertme.com rebranded home automation, etc stuff.. well, it runs linux + busybox.. and htere's no source in sight, on lowe's support or alertme.com's pages. |
| 19:16.36 | landley | I don't do license enforcement anymore. |
| 19:17.03 | landley | You can poke bkuhn on #uclibc if you like, but I've come to the conclusion that suing people over this sort of thing is simply a bad idea. |
| 19:17.20 | landley | Did it for a year, didn't add a single line of code to the busybox repository, wound up feeding money to a self-perpetuating legal machine instead. |
| 19:17.23 | landley | shrugs. |
| 19:17.34 | landley | Gotta go run errands, back in a bit. |
| 19:17.42 | chouimat | landley: hehehe and have fun |
| 19:22.26 | sorphin | wasn' expecting lawsuits, i just wanted to know what channels to follow... |
| 19:23.39 | calculus | also try asking prpplague, he has done similar for getting the source for the leapfrog stuff and the rca streaming device |
| 19:24.40 | prpplague | i would normally assist, but i am very busy currently with TI issues |
| 19:24.51 | prpplague | sorphin: maybe check back in a couple of weeks |
| 19:29.23 | chouimat | prpplague: sorphin hi guys |
| 19:29.31 | prpplague | chouimat: greetings |
| 19:33.03 | sorphin | chouimat: hey |
| 19:33.46 | sorphin | all i need is who to contact to poke them with a stick |
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| 19:36.36 | roxfan | https://www.alertme.com/contact-us/ |
| 19:37.12 | roxfan | https://twitter.com/alertmesays |
| 19:37.59 | sorphin | roxfan: not what i meant.. |
| 19:38.29 | roxfan | hm? |
| 19:38.47 | roxfan | there's support@alertme.com too |
| 19:39.11 | sorphin | roxfan: who at the eff/fsf to ping to have THEM poke Lowe's/alertme with a stick |
| 19:39.47 | sorphin | and the camera manufacturer (who their system uses), which also runs linux.. i've emailed the manufacturer twice, no response. |
| 19:39.47 | roxfan | i would first try to contact alertme directly |
| 19:39.54 | sorphin | did |
| 19:40.02 | roxfan | what happened? |
| 19:40.40 | sorphin | nothing |
| 19:40.45 | roxfan | hm |
| 19:43.15 | sorphin | pretty much |
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| 21:08.28 | landley | sorphin Bradley Kuhn handles busybox license enforcement. gpl@busybox.net or bkuhn here on freenode. |
| 21:08.37 | landley | I'm no longer involved. I think it's a bad idea. |
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| 21:26.47 | sorphin | landley: you think it's a bad idea to enforce the GPL? |
| 21:30.51 | landley | sorphin: I think enforcing it in court has done more harm than good. |
| 21:31.19 | landley | That's the conclusion I came to after setting up actual enforcement efforts, supervising them for year, and watching them work since then. |
| 21:31.30 | SpeedEvil | :-\ |
| 21:31.49 | landley | I also think that GPLv3 has rendered the GPL useless. |
| 21:32.09 | landley | Because there's no longer "the GPL". There's three incompatible read-only variants, which can't share code with each other. |
| 21:32.29 | landley | Samba is GPLv3. The kernel's cifs driver is GPLv2. You can't move code from one to the other in either direction without violating the license. |
| 21:32.38 | landley | And a project that was GPLv2 or later couldn't accept code from EITHER of them. |
| 21:32.41 | landley | Thanks FSF. |
| 21:33.08 | landley | There's no longer a "universal receiver" license, so people like me have switched to a universal donor license. |
| 21:33.40 | landley | That's the BSD/MIT stuff. Everybody can use our code. We mostly can't use theirs, but everybody has that problem now. |
| 21:34.38 | SpeedEvil | unless of course you can dual license it... |
| 21:34.59 | SpeedEvil | openstreetmap just went through major pain |
| 21:35.02 | landley | SpeedEvil: GPLv2 or later _is_ the dual license. |
| 21:35.15 | landley | They can't accept code from projects using _either_ of the licenses. |
| 21:35.19 | SpeedEvil | switching from cc-by-sa to odbl |
| 21:35.25 | landley | They can donate to more, but can receive from less. |
| 21:35.40 | landley | If you want to maximize "donate to more", that's MIT license. |
| 21:35.43 | SpeedEvil | turns out cc-by-sa is actually a noop in some countries |
| 21:35.55 | landley | MIT is a NOP in all countries. |
| 21:36.02 | landley | It's as close to public domain as you can get with our broken legal system. |
| 21:36.04 | SpeedEvil | as you can't copyright facts |
| 21:36.09 | landley | It basically says "have fun, don't sue me". |
| 21:36.34 | landley | SpeedEvil: you can patent 'em. |
| 21:36.44 | SpeedEvil | odbl works |
| 21:37.05 | SpeedEvil | but switching was painful, acrimoniuous. |
| 21:37.23 | landley | Back when GPLv2 was the only relevant GPL, the license was synonymous with copyleft, and was more or less a universal receiver. |
| 21:37.35 | landley | All you had to care about was "is this compatible with GPL, Y/N". |
| 21:37.39 | SpeedEvil | indeed. |
| 21:37.41 | landley | You only had to learn the details of one license. |
| 21:37.50 | landley | This is no longer the case. |
| 21:37.57 | landley | With the GPL. |
| 21:38.05 | SpeedEvil | subtleties and different versions are nasty. |
| 21:38.41 | SpeedEvil | been doing way too much of that sort of stuff on understanding benefits legislation. |
| 21:38.55 | landley | which is why GPL has become "code checks in but it doesn't check out". The fact the graph no longer has a single terminal node means projects can't share it, means "code checks in but it doesn't check out". |
| 21:39.02 | SpeedEvil | rather than actually being able to use that energy positively |
| 21:39.37 | landley | Think about poor QEMU: they want to use kernel driver code for device emulation and binutils/gdb code for processor definitions. And they can't. |
| 21:39.38 | SpeedEvil | gplv3 tries to enforce nicenwss |
| 21:39.43 | SpeedEvil | niceness |
| 21:39.54 | landley | I don't care what GPLv3 tries to do, it's incompatible with the linux kernel. |
| 21:40.07 | landley | They abandoned the installed base of software. |
| 21:41.02 | landley | If I write bsd/mit licensed code, anyone can use it anywhere. |
| 21:41.30 | landley | Universal donor. |
| 21:41.34 | SpeedEvil | and yes, 'stolen' code is bad. unused code is much worse |
| 21:41.48 | landley | If I BSD license it, they can't steal it. |
| 21:42.01 | SpeedEvil | indeed |
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| 21:42.10 | landley | People who don't speak _english_ reusing my code means I'd probably never get their patches back no matter what the license says. |
| 21:42.27 | landley | But if I did lgpl code and it wound up in a gpl project, I couldn't take their patch anyway. |
| 21:42.43 | SpeedEvil | the whole situation with China is a mess. |
| 21:43.01 | landley | How do you steal open source code? |
| 21:43.09 | landley | People worried about stealing open source code are deluded. |
| 21:43.18 | SpeedEvil | stealing very in quotes |
| 21:43.28 | SpeedEvil | I agree to some degree. |
| 21:43.31 | landley | I miss napster. |
| 21:43.38 | landley | I think newspapers with a paywall deserve to die. |
| 21:43.49 | landley | I think attribution is important but ownership is not. |
| 21:44.00 | landley | I think people who confuse ownership and attribution aren't thinking clearly. |
| 21:44.11 | landley | Standing on the shoulders of giants is how we make progress. |
| 21:44.26 | SpeedEvil | GPL has some point, if legal systems worked well to enforce it uniformly globally |
| 21:44.32 | SpeedEvil | v2 |
| 21:44.35 | landley | GPLv2 had some point. |
| 21:44.37 | landley | GPLv3 does not. |
| 21:44.54 | SpeedEvil | and then there is android. |
| 21:44.54 | landley | GPLv3 was the Darth Vader quote "I am altering the bargain, pray I do not alter it any further." |
| 21:45.13 | landley | Android responded to GPLv3 with a "No GPL in userspace" policy. |
| 21:45.19 | landley | Which includes lgpl. |
| 21:45.49 | SpeedEvil | it's a scarily unlinux model. |
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| 22:04.13 | landley | SpeedEvil: MacOS X is a scarily unlinux model. |
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| 22:17.17 | _av500_ | define unlinux? |
| 22:17.24 | _av500_ | or doesit mean ungnu? |
| 22:18.08 | _av500_ | android is first and foremost a product |
| 22:18.15 | _av500_ | as is osX |
| 22:22.42 | SpeedEvil | unlinux = not desktop Unix |
| 22:23.06 | SpeedEvil | hopes for irrational goodness from jollamobile. |
| 22:37.01 | _av500_ | true, no desktop linux on my phone :) |
| 22:37.06 | _av500_ | i donmt miss it |
| 22:37.39 | SpeedEvil | I love my n900. |
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| 22:46.29 | landley | SpeedEvil: open source cannot handle aesthetic issues. |
| 22:46.32 | landley | http://landley.net/notes-2010.html#13-08-2010 |
| 22:47.19 | landley | Our development model has a structural problem that prevents us from being any good at user interfaces, for the same reason wikipedia can't write a novel. |
| 22:48.22 | landley | Until somebody can come up with a scientific definition of "carrying a tune", we'll still be subject to the too many cooks effect when it comes to how it tastes. |
| 22:49.23 | landley | So I expect to see "Linux on the Desktop" basically never, but android growing up to displace the desktop seems reasonable. |
| 22:52.51 | SpeedEvil | and yes, that's a major issue. |
| 22:53.07 | SpeedEvil | one I intend to fix if I win a billion dollars. |
| 22:53.58 | _av500_ | lol |
| 22:54.27 | calculus | win? where is this contest, sign me up |
| 22:55.43 | SpeedEvil | my current plan involves spontaneous madness on behalf of a young heiress who for no apparent reason turns up on my doorstep. |
| 22:56.02 | _av500_ | sounds reasonable |
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| 23:41.00 | landley | SpeedEvil: um, so you want to be Mark Shuttleworth II? |
| 23:41.21 | SpeedEvil | elon musk. |
| 23:41.42 | landley | Mark Shuttleworth _did_ get a billion dollars (eh, close) and tried to make linux work on the desktop. |
| 23:41.53 | landley | Unfortunately, his idea of the vision fo the desktop was Gnome, then Unity. |
| 23:41.59 | SpeedEvil | yeah. |
| 23:42.02 | SpeedEvil | :-\ |
| 23:42.13 | landley | lack of leadership is a failure mode, but leading off a cliff is another failure mode. |
| 23:42.24 | SpeedEvil | I would do it properly, with fvwm95. |
| 23:42.32 | landley | reasonable. |
| 23:43.01 | landley | I might try to hire the xfce guy and ask him to strip it down and simplify. (Build dependencies are a form of complexity.) |
| 23:43.13 | landley | Code re-use is not an improvement over the code not being there. |
| 23:43.23 | landley | Not writing it again is not superior to not needing it at all. |
| 23:43.24 | SpeedEvil | very much |
| 23:44.29 | SpeedEvil | there seems to be so much 'oh, a ten line function' - I know, instead of writing this, I can include gnome. |
| 23:48.31 | landley | The embedded guys don't do that. |
| 23:48.42 | landley | That's why I hang out here. :) |
| 23:50.43 | SpeedEvil | :-) |