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| 05:35.48 | Senor | Chould I use /dev/tty0 as tty to use ? |
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| 09:04.02 | Senor | Does tty and console have different struct termios ,which result in their differnet performence? |
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| 13:44.08 | envogue | Im trying to understand exactly what it means for a real-time OS to be preemptive. In a preemptive system, if a higher priority task becomes unblocked there will be an immediate context switch while in a nonpreemptive the lowerpriority task will continue to execute until it is finished or its period is over. However in a OS with no periods, what qualifies as prememptive? is the concept not really |
| 13:44.09 | envogue | applicable? the system must be preemptive because otherwise context switches would never be made? |
| 13:47.23 | MonMotha | it may be more enlightening to consider the behavior of a non-preemptive OS ("real time" or no) |
| 13:47.43 | MonMotha | in general, that means that any multitasking must be cooperative i.e. a task will run until it yields |
| 13:48.05 | MonMotha | there also exist so-called "run to completion" OSes, which basically implement something resembling protothreads or co-routines |
| 13:48.27 | MonMotha | and there are run-to-completion OSes that are in fact preemptive, but they can only preempt one way: toward higher priority |
| 13:49.14 | MonMotha | in general, a preemptive real-time OS is one where higher priority tasks explicitly starve lower priority tasks. Contrast this with e.g. Linux, where even extremely high priority (not nice or otherwise) tasks do not fully starve lower priority things. |
| 13:49.29 | MonMotha | hence Linux is "preemptive" but not generally considered "real time" |
| 13:49.53 | MonMotha | a real-time OS can make pretty explicit guarantees about timing whereas an OS like Linux does not do that |
| 13:49.54 | _av500_ | now let the low priority task hold a lock :) |
| 13:50.41 | MonMotha | _av500_: well, indeed - you might deadlock. Some OSes feature priority inheritance, though, so the holder of the lock will have its priority raised equal to whoever else is trying to acquire the lock. |
| 13:52.05 | MonMotha | for example, in FreeRTOS, locks declared as "mutexes" implement priority inheritance, while locks declared as "semaphores" (binary or counting) do not |
| 13:52.57 | MonMotha | QK, being single stack and run-to-completion, does not implement priority inheritance, since that could result in having to unblock a task that's already somewhere lower on the stack, but it does implement a check to prevent a lower priority task from acquiring a lock that's also being waited on by a higher priority task |
| 13:58.15 | MonMotha | envogue: in a tickless OS, you generally don't get round-robin style scheduling of tasks with equal priority, but you can still preempt as a result of a syscall or interrupt unblocking another task. In other words, you can get the same behavior as a tick-based OS but all tasks must have distinct priority. |
| 13:58.25 | MonMotha | FreeRTOS implements both modes, btw, but I don't know if it's ever tickless. |
| 13:59.01 | MonMotha | QK, being strict priority, doesn't need a tick for anything other than its inbuilt timer facilities, IIRC |
| 13:59.13 | MonMotha | unfortunately, I don't know a ton about the fully commercial RTOSes |
| 13:59.57 | MonMotha | FreeRTOS is what I prefer to use, but a current project of mine is using QP (though not the full-blown QK OS, just the "vanilla" OS aka "the while(1) scheduler"). I can't say I'm a fan of QP this far. |
| 14:00.29 | envogue | ty for the answers but i stil dont quite udnerstand. consider this scenario: a realtime os offers static , fixed priority tasks. when a task runs it will run until it waits on a semaphore or tries to receive from an empty mailbox. then it will be blocked and a lower priority task will run. if the lower prio task signals the semaphore the higher prio task is waiting on the higher prio task will |
| 14:00.29 | envogue | immediately start to execute. does this make it preemptive? |
| 14:01.41 | envogue | MonMotha: the OS has ticks but that is just for geenrating timer events and getting system time. the scheduler does not use it to schedule tasks(even though tasks can sleep). |
| 14:03.19 | MonMotha | envogue: I would say that OS uses cooperative scheduling. Nothing other than an action from the running task can cause another task to start running. |
| 14:03.32 | MonMotha | BUT what happens if a higher priority task becomes unblocked e.g as the result of an ISR? |
| 14:06.48 | MonMotha | the notion of cooperative vs. preemptive gets a little odd in strict priority RTOSes |
| 14:07.22 | MonMotha | in general, "cooperative" means that a task must yield (explicitly or implicitly, by e.g. waiting on an empty mailbox) befor eanything else can run |
| 14:07.43 | MonMotha | "preemptive" means that some action outside of one taken by the running task may cause a switch to a different task |
| 14:13.36 | envogue | MonMotha: ty good explanations. i kind of understood the differences but wasnt able to pin them down exactly. |
| 14:14.48 | envogue | "BUT what happens if a higher priority task becomes unblocked e.g as the result of an ISR?" you asked that to me or to explain that it is not quite clear what is preemptive and what is cooperative in a strict prio os? |
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| 14:22.25 | MonMotha | that was something of a question to you |
| 14:22.50 | MonMotha | if an ISR's actions can unblock a higher priority task, and that task will begin to run as soon as you leave interrupt context, then you're getting back into the realm of preemptability |
| 14:30.08 | MonMotha | many would argue that's still cooperative though and that preemption explicitly means kernel timer based |
| 14:30.17 | MonMotha | it's just semantics, at that point |
| 14:36.42 | envogue | yeah a semaphore could get signaled in an interrupt im pretty sure |
| 14:37.51 | MonMotha | most OSes allow that. It's a very useful thing |
| 14:37.59 | MonMotha | in general, that's how you implement blocking IO |
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| 15:20.13 | Senor | <PROTECTED> |
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| 16:23.39 | envogue | for rate monotnic and edf there exists simple tests to see if a system is schedulable(with restricted definition of what a task can do). i assume for cooperative multitasking this is completely up to the programmer seen it is up to the programmer to define when things get released |
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| 16:48.54 | Senor | Is there pythical device for controlling terminal? such s serial devices |
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| 22:58.09 | envogue | I am very interested in embedded systems and i want to do some hobby projects with zigbee, PIC, arduino etc. how is the support to develop on linux for embedded systems in general? i want to switch from windows permanently. |
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| 23:13.53 | calculus | should be good, most people in here use linux |
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