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| 07:06.22 | TomW | good evening |
| 07:40.25 | Russ | evening |
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| 14:37.19 | Genbie | is there such a thing as a 'best' platform for embedded development? I mean the host computer that a developer use... |
| 14:37.43 | Genbie | in particular the cpu arch. |
| 14:39.28 | pb_ | no, not really. |
| 14:39.31 | pb_ | hosts are all much the same. |
| 14:40.08 | Lethal | something with a serial port tends to be useful :P |
| 14:40.58 | Genbie | pb_ so no difference between, say. developing on an Opteron worskstation (x86) and apple's new G5 (PowerPC)?? |
| 14:41.14 | Genbie | Lethal like what? |
| 14:42.10 | pb_ | Genbie: other than the opteron being faster and using more power, probably not. |
| 14:42.14 | Genbie | i mean for embedded development do you always use emulators? |
| 14:42.26 | Genbie | pb_ well we dont know yet :-) |
| 14:42.44 | Genbie | if it is faster |
| 15:10.31 | jnork | "Always" use emulators? Not necessarily. |
| 15:14.04 | jnork | I've used software simulation, I've dumped data out a serial port, I've used Motorola's BDM ports, I've used real emulators, and I've used so-called emulators that actually controlled the CPU serially but included a logic analyzer. |
| 15:14.21 | jnork | And sometimes... sometimes, you just stare at the code. |
| 15:15.53 | jnork | (My name for code review. :) |
| 15:17.02 | Genbie | jnork cool |
| 15:17.58 | jnork | Frankly, almost any reasonably modern computer can run an emulator. The emulator does all the work; all the PC does is provide the user interface and storage. |
| 15:18.25 | Genbie | jnork so ANY modern fast PC/mac should do? |
| 15:19.04 | jnork | As long as your vendor supplies support for that platorm, I can't see why it should make a difference. |
| 15:19.31 | Genbie | you mean the computer vendor..or the emulator vendor? :) |
| 15:20.01 | jnork | If the emulator vendor doesn't supply Mac software, you're gonna have trouble running it on a Mac. :) |
| 15:20.42 | jnork | But assuming they supply software to use your emulator on a Mac or a PC, I'd imagine either would do. |
| 15:21.28 | Genbie | jnork yeh well i can use linux on a mac |
| 15:21.41 | Genbie | and i think many emulators run on linux right? |
| 15:22.01 | jnork | I wouldn't know. I've only worked on the Windows platform. Ask the vendor. |
| 15:22.15 | Genbie | OK jnork.. |
| 15:22.17 | jnork | The emulator is a separate box. |
| 15:22.29 | Genbie | ah! |
| 15:22.34 | jnork | You have the emulator, and it talks to your PC. |
| 15:22.41 | Genbie | i was thinking all in s/w :) |
| 15:22.48 | jnork | Your PC supplies storage and gives you a user interface to the box. |
| 15:22.59 | Genbie | Oh OK |
| 15:23.02 | jnork | OK, software emulation is a different story... |
| 15:23.10 | Genbie | i wa sthinking software emulators |
| 15:23.45 | Genbie | well i thought h/w 'emulators' are the real thing ... |
| 15:23.48 | jnork | Hah. You ask embedded guys about emulators, they're likely to think hardware in-circuit emulators. |
| 15:24.04 | Genbie | well i am newbie to this stuff :) |
| 15:24.11 | Genbie | sorry didnt clarify that |
| 15:24.15 | jnork | It's OK. |
| 15:24.53 | jnork | For myself, I've found software emulation to be of limited use on embedded platforms. |
| 15:25.12 | jnork | Part of the problem is that you have to fake there being a bunch of hardware that doesn't exist on your PC... |
| 15:25.24 | Genbie | jnork you know when we will begin to see smart embedded devices like those capable of vision and speech recognition? |
| 15:25.32 | jnork | No idea. |
| 15:25.45 | Genbie | yes jnork and i can imagine it being much slower |
| 15:26.03 | jnork | Pick up a copy of "Being Digital" by a fellow named Negroponte, he's got some interesting ideas. |
| 15:26.17 | jnork | Yes, it's slower. The advantage is that you have complete control over the process. |
| 15:26.47 | jnork | Assuming, of course, that the software actually correctly emulates the hardware. :) |
| 15:28.25 | Genbie | jnork which cpu arch you develop for (x86 because you do for windows)? |
| 15:29.18 | jnork | I didn't say I developed for Windows. I said I've only developed on a Windows platform. That is, the software compilers and emulation interfaces were on Windows. |
| 15:29.49 | Genbie | ah yes |
| 15:29.52 | Genbie | sorry |
| 15:30.02 | Genbie | ok so which embedded cpu ypou target? :) |
| 15:30.08 | jnork | I've developed for 8080/8085/Z80, 6809, 68xxx, and Microchip. |
| 15:30.26 | Genbie | cool |
| 15:30.45 | jnork | And some 8086, come to think. |
| 15:31.29 | jnork | Actually, the 8080/8085/Z80 stuff was under CP/M and ISIS, not Windows. That was before DOS existed. :) |
| 15:31.38 | Genbie | hehe |
| 15:31.43 | Genbie | 1970s? |
| 15:31.53 | jnork | Yes. |
| 15:32.06 | Genbie | wow... |
| 15:32.33 | Genbie | well yesterday i was thinking how the x86 had survived (and thrived) for exactly 25 years (so far) |
| 15:32.53 | jnork | Cool. I hadn't really kept track. |
| 15:33.24 | jnork | Too bad it's suck a crappy architecture. |
| 15:33.41 | jnork | s/suck/suck |
| 15:33.43 | jnork | hah |
| 15:33.46 | jnork | s/suck/such |
| 15:34.32 | jnork | Motorola 68k would have been a better choice |
| 15:35.00 | Genbie | yeh.. i wonder why they are still used for embedded systems when they consume a lot of power compared with other arch (like RISC based archs) |
| 15:35.20 | jnork | Which are? |
| 15:35.45 | Genbie | x86 |
| 15:35.57 | Genbie | compared to others |
| 15:36.04 | jnork | Prolly because a lot of people know the architecture and it's easy to get tools |
| 15:36.13 | Genbie | like PowerPC, MIPS, ARM |
| 15:36.45 | Genbie | yeh ... but it hasnt to do with anuthing regarding tools for the host computers that one uses? |
| 15:38.20 | jnork | Well, maybe sorta. Consider that you don't need an expensive cross-compiler; there are even free compilers available. Even software emulation is built right in, and since you're running native on the processor, you can take advantage of it. |
| 15:39.07 | jnork | And people tend to go with what they know and are comfortable with. Not everybody came into embedded the way I did. Some started out writing Windows apps... |
| 15:39.10 | Genbie | yeh |
| 15:39.57 | Genbie | yeh..i noticed on MS site that they empasise the point of porting apps developed for windows xp to windows xp embedded |
| 15:40.24 | jnork | Yeah, that's another thing. Microsoft is trying to push their crap into everything. |
| 15:40.34 | Genbie | and since windows is tied to intel.. |
| 15:40.43 | jnork | Pretty much, yep. |
| 15:44.34 | jnork | Me, I'd like to see somebody come up with the hardware equivalent of the open-source software -- a hardware platform that is entirely patent-free, open design, and designed by people who have a clue. Preferably on some platform that is NOT tied to Microsoft's apron strings. |
| 15:44.54 | jnork | It would be even cooler if it could be processor-independent. |
| 15:45.17 | Genbie | that would be very cool jnork |
| 15:46.21 | jnork | Probably be a backplane/bus design with pluggable CPU boards. Sort of like S-100 was, only better. |
| 15:49.18 | jnork | Any peripheral cards would have independent processors. The bus would be used for communications. Every type of card would have a standard communications interface, so you could use anybody's video card from any CPU with a single, standard driver. |
| 15:50.06 | jnork | This having to write custom drivers for each card and each peripheral in existence is STUPID. |
| 15:50.18 | Genbie | yeh i think open standards are the best thing to adopt |
| 15:52.10 | jnork | Think OOP for hardware. Serial module has a standard interface. So it just plugs and plays inherently. |
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| 16:04.44 | jnork | Decouple the CPU from all the peripherals. The bus should be a COMMUNICATIONS MEDIUM, for fast transfer of data. Not for letting the CPU take on all the work of a peripheral. |
| 16:07.47 | Genbie | that would be a revolution i think.. many players in h/w may no longer exist and new ones will emerge... |
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| 20:37.50 | file | Hello andersee |
| 20:39.04 | andersee | file: howdy |
| 20:43.32 | fontenot | hi andersee, how's the new uclibc release coming? |
| 20:43.49 | andersee | fontenot: coming... |
| 20:44.10 | andersee | fontenot: found some problems with full local and c++ that we're addressing |
| 20:45.52 | fontenot | ah well I'm in no hurry - I was glad to see you solved the problem with dynamic loading chains tho |
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| 22:48.22 | andersee | fontenot: yeah. That was certainly a nasty one |
| 22:49.22 | andersee | fontenot: With that fixed, and the latest batch of locale work, even monster apps like mozilla should now work |
| 22:49.26 | andersee | in theory... |
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